Super Size Me, Jesus

well said Kaveh...

I don't know how you could have explained it any clearer.  The outrage is against the ripping off issue... or grift as you called it.  Just pretend it was a youth sports team for pete's sake.  The "coach" was using team funds/contributions to pay for his own lunch.  The fact that is was a religious scenario is completely irrelevant.

As well, K... let me state in no uncertain terms that I have nothing against religion.  I, in fact, am a member of the Catholic church.  My comment including jimmy baker could hardly be construed as an attack on christianity.  However, I am not blind to the fallacies of the Church or any other religion. 

Maybe This Subject Matter Is Too Much For You

K, I don't know how else to put it to you. I am not being critical of Christianity. What I witnessed the other night in reality has absolutely nothing to do with Christianity. If it were a group of children from a mosque, and I witnessed the same thing, I would reach the same conclusion.

As far as some of your most recent comments, I have to tell you, they are somewhat distrurbing. Wanting to stop people from attacking naturalized citizens and those with visas, and wanting to stop naturalized citizens and those with visas from attacking Americans? Why must you place qualifiers on it?

How about simply stopping people from attacking people, WHOEVER they are, WHATEVER they are and WHEREVER they are?

I'm sorry that you feel this behavior is harmless. Using your own word, they are indoctrinated into this from a young age. Into a pattern of behavior that is self-destructive and counter-productive. There is no difference between the pastor who scares children into believing that if they don't follow their ways that they will be condemned to hell and the Moslem clergy who teaches that non-believers are infidels and should be killed, and a reward of 72 virgins awaits them in paradise after they scream Allah Akbar and detonate a fuse that blows them and a couple dozen Jews into a million pieces. Neither scenario has anything in common with God. The pastor from the other night is using Christianity as a front for his pattern of grifting innocent people who are easily impressionable, just as the IRI is using Islam as a front for fleecing the Iranian people and nation.

What you repeatedly call satire is in fact an attempt to inject a shred of humor in a situation that in reality enraged me.

I actually GET the New Yorker cover. It says that people who actually believe any of the myths about Barack Obama and his wife that are depicted on the cover are a bunch of idiots. And it's done in typical New York style. The artwork on New Yorker covers has always been done in an exaggerated caricature style. That's Clue #1. Unfortunately it doesn't play out that way because people are just so irretrievably stupid.

You say I don't like that kind of Christian. To correct you for the final time, I don't like anyone who uses any religion as a front to exploit personal faith and spritual belief of others to manipulate them in the manner that I witnessed.

To KN and KN, None of us, none of us, have ANYTHING other than

our own INHERENTLY limited perceptions to rely on in order to navigate through this life's journey.  However, through continued dialog with others with INHERENTLY different perspectives, these perceptions broaden.  Sometimes the dialog is not pleaasant, but as long as it is "civilized" (jj's pet term), it is ALWAYS GOOD.

"There are things known and things unknown. In between are the doors." -- William Blake.

We are each other's doors and this forum jj has provided us is our "little" house. Let's keep on opening the doors.

And mirrors, KN and KN. Let's not forget, we are also each others' mirrors.

Rosie

PS Did you know, KN and KN,  that it was from Blake's poem that Jim Morrison and the Doors took their name? The doors of perceptionn, they meant. The doors of perrception.

That's your perception of what you observed, Kaveh.

Those who replied responded to the clever description and the excellent title of your article attacked Christianity because they were lead to that conclusion after reading your article.  They included notorious men like James Baker in their posts.   That branch of Protestantism was condemned roundly for they way they act,  the way they preach, and  the  way they teach.

I am uncomfortable with putting anyone down because of their way of talking, looking, and acting.  I protest and attempt to stop people from doing it to naturalized citizens and those with visas.  I will attempt to stop naturalized citizens from doing it to Americans in their own homeland.

I think you and your readers have a bias against people who act as these people have acted.  The teaching method  is alien to you and you ascribe negative words to their behavior.  Those people grow up with this kind of Jesus talk.  They have listened to it and spoken that way since they were toddlers. They are just as indoctrinated into that form of lifestyle as the people in the maddrassas.

Those Christians groups helped civilize America.  People were moving west in the early 1800's and there were no Churches and no law.  Families came west and settled.  To protect themselves they formed Congregations often using the Bibile as their book, but without the formal religious leaders  that we find in the Catholic Church and Islam.  In the 1800's hundred of religious faiths were established.

Today, we see mega Churches forming from the tiny Chuch groups as people search for ways to raise their children and to have something to grasp onto in a fast changing world.  I feel it's harmless.  The Jimmy Bakers will get weeded out and the government, which hands out charitable status so the Churches don't have to pay property taxes is monitoring what happens and will prosecute when they find crimes.

I see nothing wrong with these people.  They have the right to live their lives the way they want to live.  I see nothing wrong with the way the kids in our local Mosque are being raised.  I won't make fun of either group.

Yeah...  I think you used satire to make your point, Kaveh.  I'm sure you have heard or seen the New Yorker Magazine cover with the Obams dressed as Middle Eastern terrorists. That's satire too.  Satire at is core has a cruelty to it.  As long as you are willing to take as well as recieve it's ok. I think a number of people here dish it out, but won't allow anyone to attack what they believe.

I do respect you for your ability to write and for your reasoned discussion.  I think you don't like that kind of Christian and lots of people here jumped on your bandwagon.  A number did it with a degree of cruelty.  I rarely read the posts of those people anyway, I will read yours in the future.  If I think differently, i would like to let you know and I will gvie you my reasons.

K. Nassery

Thank you for your thoughtful response to me.

I'm thinking about it.

However, it WAS Kaveh's experience. Neither of us were there in the room with him....

Rosie

K Nassery

It's seems that you perceive criticism of the specific behavior I witnessed as a criticism of Christianity.

By saying nothing is sacred you're implying that everything is sacreligious. What is more sacreligious than using a person's very faith in God as a means to take advantage of them? 

He WARNED: Jesus condemned the religious leaders

for APPEARING SAINTLY AND HOLY but REMAINING FULL OF CORRUPTION AND GREED on the inside.

Jesus: "How terrible it will be for you teachers of religious law. Hypocrites!! You are so careful to clean the outside of the cup and the dish, but inside you are filthy - full of greed and self indulgence!" -matthew 23:25

Stay away from money-hungry preachers.

"these people always cause trouble. Their minds are corrupt, and they don't tell the truth. To them religion is just a way to get rich." -1Timothy 6:5

"For the love of money is at the root of all kinds of evil. And some people , craving money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many sorrows." -Timothy 6:10 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- Wow!!! What a low life pastor! For a f.....burger!

Kaveh Nouraee jaan, dear friend, very nice article. I loved it. And you're completely RIGHT, Most of them, ugly religious figures (any religion, maybe except for zoroastrianism) they only & only want your money. In the Torah (law) and the holy Quran there's lots of warning on this issue about penny-pinching religious leaders,,, as you mentioned earlier:

" But I don't know of any
religion that says it's acceptable to take advantage of others by
expoliting their faith in God." I really don't know either, but unfortunately it's true and a sad matter of fact since the old ancient days.

PS: I posted verses from the bible cuz the subject's about Christians and Jesus... -By the way, amazing title.

Well, Kaveh...you did bring forth a lot of joy and laughter

at the behavior of those people.  Lots of criticism of Christianity too in the replies. 

Nothing is sacred..... the proof is right here in this thread.

All I Can Say Is...

Holy ____!!

:-)

kaveh jan

once the money is donated to the church it immidiately becomes holy money and there for it is ok to be spend on the holy father and holy water and holy food to fill up the holy stomach of the holy reverend. 

Maybe Illegal. DEFINITELY Immoral.

Yes, petty theft is disgusting. Especially when the victims are working class people with young children who placed their trust in this person based solely upon their faith in God.

The phrase "stealing candy from a baby" is meant to be a humorous allusion, not a motto for these liars to operate by.

Given the choice, these people would not donate as much as tehy do or as often as they do it. They feel compelled to do so after hearing these sleazeballs. ".....Jesus loves you brothers and sisters, now show how much you love Jesus with your donation. The plate is being passed around now. Show Jesus how much you love him."

Translation: "I'm three payments behind on my Cadillac and the repo man is waiting outside with a tow truck."

Yes, parents placed their children in church. they also place their children in daycare. Similarly high expectations, equally disastrous results.

RosieT....I see these groups all of the time in the Mid West.

It's their way.  Abuse of power or way of teaching?  If you haven't been surrounded by people of these faiths, you might take their ways as some kind of abuse.  I think you live in NYC and I doubt you have ever been in a Baptist Church.  They wear their religion close.....  You probably don't understand that either because you never experienced these things. 

I believe this guy.... was in teaching mode...It was probably a Bible Camp outing and his lesson of the day was the Holy Spirit.  I believe that many people here have condemned him because of the way Kaveh perceived the occurence and Kaveh's persuasive article.

 In my opinion, people don't give their time to little church groups to have power over kids or abuse the purse strings of a Congregation.  I know a lot of people who aren't in these  sects dislike the way they do things.   I feel that people have the right to live their lives the way they wish to. 

KAVEH

What do you expect from a bunch of "moft khors" who did not have "ONE" productive day in their entire so called life

It doesn't matter what they're called, Mullah, Rabbi, Priest, Pastor, Akhoond,  ZALOO ...they ALL sell GOD to poor souls

I remeber years ago in Tehran, there was this big banner over the entrance of "Sherkat t'aavoni tolid va masraf" with a big picture of the big brother "Valli-e Vaghih" which read 

سهم شما در تولید آنچه مصرف می‌کنید چیست؟

I don't know who should've ask this question from whom

I do not see Kaveh's blog as being about religion. I see it as

being about abuse of power.

Rosie

It's probably illegal.

My mother records the donations to from her Catholic Church envelopes and puts the name and amount into the computer so the Church can issue a form in Jan. for the income tax charity deductions.  So...sure taking the money out of an envelope like that could be illegal. So, Kaveh, maybe you witnessed a crime.  Surely, he should have kept the receipt and submitted them to their accountant.  I'm sure that happens in Churches, but someone can turn them in and they will face the law.  If you consider petty theft disgusting...that's ok.

 If you didn't like the way the pastor/cleric was dealing with the kids, that's fine too.   Parents put their kids into that church group.  They must think it's ok.  The guy is getting their donations and they must want to give their money to him or they wouldn't do it.  It sounds like a Protestant religion to me and the people in those Churches interview, hire and fire their pastors. 

If you look at the responses of your readers, people on your side in this are anti...religion.  That's how you came across in the post.  Being anti religion is perfectly ok.  It's actually popular here.  Super Size Me, Jesus...  that brings in the religious aspect and that's why I looked to see what you meant.

Hey.... I've only see tv news shows on madrassas in Pakistan and a documentary by a Canadian Afghan woman called, "Kandahar."  I didn't think the way they were teaching the kids was what I would select for my own kids, but their parents did it.  I wasn't disgusted by it either.  That is their way.  I certainly am not disgusted by the way my husband was educated in Iran either.  I think the teachers did a great job.

"Super Size  Me, Jesus" is a great title.  It caught my eye right away.  It's ok to be anti religion, anti that group's religion, anti the way they instruct and anti the tenants of their religion.  Super size  Me Jesus all day long.... you are free here .........I'm sure that those church  people won't be hurt by your comments.  They surely don't come to this place.

Kaveh

I totally get your point.  It has nothing to do with being anti-anything.  It was a personal reaction to an unjust... unfair...abuse.  There was no hidden meaning in your words.  Just a honest reaction to a dishonesty. 

I just wish it was as easy to see the good in religion as it is to see the bad.  For all the incidences such as described by you, there are zillions more where people give generously of their time and money.  America unfortunately has had more than her share of jimmy bakers who have ripped people off in the name of religion.  But we still keep giving... because we WANT to believe.  Because we WANT to help. 

Sad, sad, sad.

K Nassery

If someone wants to be a Christian, Moslem, Jew, Buddhist, Atheist, or anything else. I honestly couldn't care any less.

As far as I am concerned, religion is a personal issue. I truly believe that if it were kept as a personal issue, we would have less social conflict in this world. Agree, or disagree. You will never convince me otherwise.

As for the money source of this guy's hamburger: That's ONE of the problems. Let's say you go to church, and the pastor, priest or whatever he/she calls himself is at the pulpit encouraging the churchgoers to, "reach deep down into your pockets, and give ....GIVE!!!....in the name of JEEEEZZZUSSSS..... because The Lawd wants me to get a cheeseburger and he wants you to pay for it." You going to do it? You tell me, K, what in the hell does that have to do with religion? Any religion? How can you not see that these people are being used for this weasel's personal gain?

Like I said, be of whatever religion you want. That's not even the point of this blog, no matter how much you try to make it that way. The point is how one person has managed to manipulate a group of unsuspecting, unsophisticated people for his own personal gain by exploiting their personal faith in God, (even if in this case the gain was a greasy cheeseburger). In other cases, if allowed to get away with it, who knows? Maybe that's OK with you. But I don't know of any religion that says it's acceptable to take advantage of others by expoliting their faith in God. Nor is there anything that advocates frightening or intimidating children.

I leave you with this question: If Jesus were there, knowing what you about his life and his story, would he send a child to get him a cheeseburger and then use money earned on the backs of the flock to pay for it when he has a bankroll in his own wallet?

Pastor, akhoond and rabbi

The Pastor, Akhoond, and Rabbi they all disgust me,,let me go further the Jesus, Mohammad and Moses are disgust me AND Church, mosque and Senegal must be burned down to ashes..

What do you care about the Church's money?

It's obvious that your problem is not with the source of payment for a hamburge at MacDonalds.  You felt is was disgusting that the minister was ministering at MacDonalds.  You had bias against them from the first moment you realized that it was a Christian Church group.    

This is perfectly, OK...Kaveh.  We get it ...You don't want to see this in public.  Americans are ok with this, Kaveh and you may see it in the future.   I've seen Mosque children out in groups and I'm ok with that too.  I sent my kids on some of those trips.  Americans are ok with kids having hamburgers while on church/mosque adventures. Since you are here, you will have to learn to live with it.

Iva, it's not disgust that Kaveh and others display.

 It's an inside joke about Americans and Christians in particular.

The Holy Spirit...is the Spirit of Peace.  It's symbol is a flame or  a white dove.  The concept acutally came from Zorastrianism, the ancient Persian reiligion through the Essene scholars (the guys who left the Dead Sea Scrolls in those caves and inspired John the Baptist, the cousin of Jesus.) 

 Basically, Kaveh was encouraging his Muslim friends to laugh at a basic premise of the majority of the Christian faiths, the Trinity. 

Nothing is sacred....  right Kaveh?

Dear Kaveh

You said it:
"...sad with the realization that these families, who go to church to find inner peace and solace, who are far from wealthy, and in many cases are living paycheck to paycheck, are being screwed by the very people where they have placed their deepest trust in the matter of their personal faith."

isn't that always the case? the poor and uneducated are always being exploited and betrayed, by most religions and governments.

That's how the rich gets richer and the poor is sacrificed.

nice blog

The Whole Episode Was Disgusting

Iva.... In short...to answer all three of your questions...the answer is yes, yes, and yes.

These people are not wealthy by any stretch, they aren't even middle class. And they are led to believe that someone just as mortal as they are can lead them to salvation or whatever, which is a load of bull. No, the kids are not his servants. You want a hamburger, get up and get it your damn self. That child was not placed on this planet to serve him. And no, you don't get into a child's face and grill them in that manner. It's revolting. Show me a Moslem, or a Jew who does that to a child in that manner. You don't even see that in Christians from other countries. You only see that here in the U.S.

K Nassery....I am not disrespecting this or any other religion. I observed as a so-called pastor was disrespecting others under the guise of religion.

Miz Abdol....I was in the middle of the line...the parents were pulling money out of their own pockets to pay for whatever their children were getting. This loser was paying for his burger with church money when he had his own wallet out with a wad of bills sticking out if it.

The gas prices are what they are because of speculators who have manipulated the price on the commodities market. They do it for the almighty dollar, in the name of profit. They are not invoking the name of Jesus Christ. But that's for another blog. The fact is, this charletan pastor took money from people whom I guarantee you have a much harder time paying for a gallon of gas than I do.

Exaclty what disgust you?

The pastor asking a kid to purchase the meal for him?
The pastor paying for the meal from church's coffer?
Tha pastor asking kids if holy ghost is with them?

Wow...making fun of religious people...

It was a Church group for God's sake.  I have had Iranian visitors staying at my own home and had them break into prayer.  I didn't make fun of them. 

Well, it's America and you can put down Christians to your heart's delight.  Let anyone criticize Muslim prayers before getting on an airplane and see what happens to you.  At least the minister wasn't preaching, "Death to Iran."

 BTW...I have Iranians in my life that loved to say, "Jesus Christ!" when they were ticked off.  I cured them.  Every time they did it, I immediately said, "Mohammed!!!!!"  They got the point over time.

If you want Islam or any religion to be respected, you have to respect others.  If you don't believe, try to respect others just because there is freedom here.  Don't expect someone to respect you if you make fun of them.

Oh Kaveh it's so wonderful to see you blogging,

I just saw from your tracking that you only blogged twice when the blogging was first instituted and once last month.  You should do it more often.

As for this experience, well, ya know, power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.  And it is MUCH easier to have ABSOLUTE power when you choose to be a big fish in a small pond. Actually the smaller the pond the better.

And lest we forget, the name of your one sole blog betwen THEN and NOW, ooincidentally was "Someone Is On a Power Trip." 

Oh and btw that hysterical e-mail I sent you a while back..I hope you don't think ill of me for it.  Did you know that the etymology of "hysteria" from the Greek is "wandering womb"? It's a girl thing, you see.

Well, anyway, power to the people,
Rosie

In the name of holly macarooni

my son, good observation. But, you must realize that a church is a non-for-profit entity and just like a for-profit company it has revenue and expenses.

The source of revenue is from donations and bequests and other charities and the expenses are the cost of the upkeep of the house of lord and the utilities, the staff and of course all the other expenses which includes, meals and entertainment, transportation and etc.

Perhaps the pastor was allocated a certain amount of money collected from parents specifically for their children meal and he kept all that money in an envelope to spend from. The surplus might go to church treasury or spent on another occasion on the kids.

What I am saying is what we see sometimes deceives us and the truth might be far from our interpretations. In this world that is dominated and ran by the MAFIA even snatching a ten dollars from the church coffer to spend on a child does not matter as much as to ripoff a nation at the tune of $100 on extra gas expense per family each week in the name of terrorism. In fact you just had gone through that pain before you went to McDonald's.

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts and stop eating at McDonald's it shortens your life...

Praise the Lord