Pictory

Re conspiracy theorists

Dear Aynak, rationality behind the conspiracy theories is not a big concern of the right-wing extemists throughout the world (as in why a conspicuous Russian diplomat would risk to kill or have someone killed right after meeting that person while the whole world knows about that meeting!). The blue prints of such theories are the same all over the world with minor differences due to local variations!

For instance, in the U.S., the tea-baggers call Obama a communist or socialist, while in any country outside the U.s., he would be consicdered a right-of-center moderate politician! It's due to the fear and paranoia created out of any quasi-socialist policy that automatically amounts to being pro-communist or socialist -- while such fear is not a major factor in a European country in which communists and socialist are allowed to take part in the democratic political process! Another example is South American right-wing paramilitary groups who cotrol their political climate and demonize their apponents by associating them with militant Marxist guerillas!

Indeed, such demonization would not be possible without the existence of bogemen with which the undesired political currents can be associated. In the case of Iran it's communists in general, and Tudeh party in specific in the case of the supporters of Pahlavis, and MEK/PMOI in case of the IRI supporters. By creating a Manichean view of the "evil" as opposed to "good," they associate every anti-social act with these "bogeymen" in order to further alienate them so they can justify their masters' elimination of political opponents as "stopping the co-conspirators of the bogeymen." As in: "If it wasn't for A'lahazrat Ariamehr and his collaborations with CIA and MI6, Mosadegh would've sold the country to the Tudeh and Russians," or "Magham-e Mo'azam-e Rahbari thwarted the plot by the leaders of Fetneh and the agents of monafeghin..."!

Ali P., Aynak's comment mentions

that program was cut. This debate happened and we watched it. This debate was not a friendly debate. At one point in one of these debates, Kianouri asks for fair trials so if people have anything against them, they can bring it up.  Then Beheshti promises him that trials will happen.

Spies and killers.........

Usage of  the term "to be in bed" is utterly unjust, and historically false. A "hairline" ish disagreement is almost always enough to kill a marriage, so to speak...

And the debate did take place..........

Was this broadcasted?

کشتی"  این برنامه به سرعت قطع شد.

I don't remember such scene.

Does anyone?

Besides, Kianouri was, deeply, in bed with the Islamists at the time. Why would he say that?

Aynak, interesting reference to debate between Kianouri

and Beheshti, where Kianouri told Behesti about what people say. The rest of your comment was great too. Yes, Taleghani was popular with most political groups. The idea that Soviets were behind Taleghani's death seems very far fetched. Some of the people who comment on these threads display the fact that they must not have lived in Iran late 1970s and early 1980s since they get everything wrong.

Re:Rahmanian

  You write:

"  Could you show me where else I got the news wrong? I don't know who you are defending. Most probably you were deeply hurt when I wrote something about the childish debate you were carrying on yesterday. If not then let me know if you were hurt because I said something about someone you care about. Aside from what I wrote as a rumor and conspiracy theory, three others seem to suspect foul play in Taleghani's death. It is interesting that you chose to address my comments. At any rate, try to read what I have written again and if you have difficulty with reading or understanding the text, get some help. If that didn't work either, I'll be glad to help."

 Let's take two characters:   Reza Shah and Khomaney.   We know Reza Shah was personally responsible for the murder of many of his opponents, including some secular forces,  and we know, Khomaney was in charge were political prisoners were raped in prison and he WAS aware.   Now if someone says, Reza Shah was responsible for the murder of some secular guys in Turkey,  or Khomaney was responsible for the rape of some girls in Algeria, that just does not make sense.    You can not start something and simply say it is a conspiracy theory.   Other than you stating Taleghani was murdered by Russia, (A state that was responsible for the death of many of its own citizens, but not Taleghani) I have not heard this conspiracy theory ANY where else.

Give me one source on death of Taleghani that shows he was murdered by Russia other than yourself.

 You can certainly come up with your own conspiracy theories, but for heavens sake at least try to have some rational/logic with this theory.

--How would murder of Taleghani help the cause of Russian/what would they gain from that?

--Would the risk of someone finding out the then Soviets were behind it,  help or hurt them, when already Iran at the time was so anti-West and somewhat neutral on the East?

 Now we can all have a big bowel of Aubgousht and come up with conspiracy theories.   But every conspiracy theory revolves around motivations/interests .....   You even fail to establish that.

I just noticed you have responded to my note about "Dr." Mirfetroos.  I will take that up on that thread.   That one is as pointless as this conspiracy theory.     BTW, my point here was not even whether Taleghani was murdered or not.   Just to show you the one theory that was circulating with at least some motivation behind that theory.

Re sudden change

Dear VPK, I totally agree. In revolutions, and especially in post-revolutionary era, rational elements and cool heads are either drowned out or eliminated by radical forces -- as in the instance of Ayatollah Taleghani. That is why it is incumbent upon us to think about and take into account the consequences of radical moves and sudden changes with regards to a post-IRI era!

Dear Arj

You are probably right in general. But I think there will be many demands for revenge. Specially if the IRI goes in a big change instead of gradually. That is why if the Mollahs are smart they will allow for a gradual change.

This is not going to happen while Khamenei is around. He has to be removed one way or other.

I also agree about people moving away from Islam. I have posted this many times but will repeat it. According to a Zogby poll commissioned by PAIAA only 40% of Iranian Americans identify themselves as Muslim. While 40% say "no religion".  Islam had its heyday in Iran and it is over. From here on it is downhill.

BTW, Aynak's comment..

minus the jab at G.Rahmanian,  is spot on.... 

"Personal business must yield to collective interest."

mammad, thanks for the insight.

I am only repeating a claim and a personal belief, so is everybody else here about this patriot's cause of death.

What matters most, The fact, that we all seem to agree with is that Taleghaani was against the whole concept of "velaayat faghih", as he clearly saw where it would lead to. Who he sided with, where he stood politicaly, is neither here nor there.

This is the discussion I was hoping to conduct in the "other blog", before I allowed myself to be interrupted and distracted by the usual crowd of middle aged infants:

What went wrong with our revolution?

Would be a good topic for a blog, learning from our past mistakes..

"Personal business must yield to collective interest."

Akhoonds and Mollahs

Dear VPK, not only that would be impossible, but unnecessary! For if the IRI criminals are brought to justice, they wouldn't need razor blades and suits behind bars. And as the majority of akhoonds -- who are not directly involved in the IRI crimes -- are concerned, they'll keep functioning as regular akhoonds, i.e. performing at funeral ceremonies and Rozehs. And trust me, there still are plenty of peopele who buy into that religious stuff, albeit mostly in small towns and rural areas!

However, there will be plenty of people who will gradually convert away from Islam (some of whom already have) to other religions or no religion at all! So, IMHO, if left for themselves, the majority of akhoonds will die out in a generation or two, or will have adapt to the needs of a secular society. Not to mention the advent of Maddahism by Ahmadinejad's gang as a serious challenge to the traditional akhoonds! Think of it as an evolutionary process driven by natural selection!

Nobody

is making a hero of Taleghani at least not me. But I don't want to make a villain of him. We have no reason or right to blame him for things he did not do.

Pretty much anyone with lots of power will get rotten.

Nader Shah was not an Akhoond but went crazy with power. That is why Americans put in "Checks and Balances". That is why we have elections.I think any reasonable system should have term limits. Of course that does not work with Monarchy hence all the problems. Therefore if we do want a Monarchy the King must have virtually no power. I like the American idea of serve two terms then go off and be done. By the way Putin is proving even that may be circumvented. To make it short  

kaaseh eh daaghtar az aash

The family of the deceased/victim is usually the source of possible cynical theories of a murder plot. An example would be Dodi Fayed's death along with the late Princess Diana. Fayed's father is still of the opinion that the couple was murdered.

If the family of the victim is OK with the official 'cause of death', I ,too, personally go with that. If the families of Dr. Shariati, Takhti, Mostafa Khomeini, Ayatolla Taleghani, and Ahmad Khomeini- who at one time or another could have challenged the official findings, and did not- subscribe to the official story,so would I.

Roozbeh

Taleghani was not murdered. Believe me, I know, not just a claim, but through connections. He was already ill when he was in Shah's jail.

The goodness or badness of people does not have anything to do with their outfits, as you say. Taleghani was a Mosaddeghist until his last breadth and a true patriot.

Mammad

given him enough time...

he would have acted the same way as others pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease do not make a hero out of him! 

There were

plenty of sane and decent Mollahs. It just happens that s**t always floats to the top. Hence Khomeini floated to the top. However I fear that once IRI is gone the Akhoonds are going to get it big time. Not that is is a big loss.

But there will be a lot of innocent people who will  be butchered in revenge. Unless there is a very brave leader that will stand against the crowds. But somehow I doubt it. There is always the danger that the one you save is the one that tuns on you. Kind of like the one Marxist who lived turned out to be Rajavi. So people may just decide not to take any chances and take them all out and let God sort it out later. For their sake I hope they have the shaving stuff ready and a decent Western style suit! 

Aynak:

Could you show me where else I got the news wrong? I don't know who you are defending. Most probably you were deeply hurt when I wrote something about the childish debate you were carrying on yesterday. If not then let me know if you were hurt because I said something about someone you care about. Aside from what I wrote as a rumor and conspiracy theory, three others seem to suspect foul play in Taleghani's death. It is interesting that you chose to address my comments. At any rate, try to read what I have written again and if you have difficulty with reading or understanding the text, get some help. If that didn't work either, I'll be glad to help.

مرگ یا قتل طالقانی ؟

طبق معمول رحمانیان اخبار را واژگون متوجه شده. اینکه روسیه در قتل طالقانی
دست داشته نه تنها بعید- تا حدی غیر ممکن به نظر میرسد.   مدتی   پس از
مرگ/قتل  طالقانی در تلوزیون گفتگویی بین کیانوری و بهتشی پخش شد.    در
این گفتگو جدال لفظی هم بین این دو در گرفت.    بهشتی که به گفته ای مامور
بین خمینی و بوش پدر -- از طرف ریگان (که هنوز رییس جمهور نشده بود) در این
مجادله گفت:   آقای کیانوری مردم می گویند شما جاسوس روسیه هستید.   
کیانوری هم بلافاصله گفت:   مردم می گویند "بهشتی بهشتی -- طالقانی رو تو
کشتی"  این برنامه به سرعت قطع شد.    اینکه طالقانی از همان ابتدا با
خمینی اختلافات عمیق داشت شکی نیست.
در مقطع انقلاب، شاید براحتی بتوان گفت تنها چهره مذهبی که میتوانست میدان
را از خمینی بگیرد همین طالقانی بود.   او که از معدود روحانیونی بود که در
دوره شاه به زندان رفت (مصباح، جنتی و بسیاری از آیتالله هایی که امروز
نان انقلاب را می خورند، نتنها در انقلاب سهمی نداشتند، بلکه اکثرا  مانند
کاشانی کاملا با دربار خوب بودند.)   در هر روی - طالقانی به دلیل اینکه
روحانی  براستی روشنفکر بود، و همانطور که گفته شد فرزندان او نیز به گروه
های مختلف سیاسی وابستگی داشتند، با اندیشته های دیگر از در جدال وارد نمی
شد و از محبوبیت فوق العاده زیادی بین گروه های سیاسی و مردم جدا از
ایدولوژی برخوردار بود.   براستی اگر جای طالقانی خمینی همان روزهای اول
انقلاب جان میداد، حتما ایران امروز به گونه ای دیگر بود.

Order From Above!

The Khomeinists most certainly had something to do with Taleghani's death. Let's not forget, though, the transitional government headed by Bazargan had not resigned, yet. That happened in November '70, whereas Taleghani was murdered in September. Did anyone within the transitional government suspect foul play? Anyone ordering such heinous crime must have been close to Khomeini, even if Khomeini did not order it directly. Khomeini had already proven he was capable of murdering anyone opposing him. Who carried out the assassination is a different question!

Roohesh shad and may he rest in peace

Precisely as Roozbeh said, one of very few Akhoon who have proven that there is an exception to the rule and not ALL akhoonds are charlatans.

I will put my money that he was murdered by this regime.

'Hambastegi' is the main key to victory 

Mehrdad

Why Russians!

As I have mentioned twice, this may only be a conspiracy theory. Rumors abound because facts surrounding Taleghani's death are unknown to the public. Why should Kennedy okay a coup against the South Vietnamese president who was hand-picked by the US government and then regret it? Of course, we hear about it thirty years later. Khomeini may or may not have ordered the "assassination," directly. There were others who wanted Taleghani dead. But those who cause the actual deaths are most often not the same as those who order them. Stalin didn't personally kill Trotsky. He ordered it. Someone else pulled the trigger. In such cases, though, we blame the murders on those who order them.

Re guards impeding medics...

His residence was not far from my uncle's, and word on the street was that Pasdars prevented and stalled the ambulance and praramedics, who were dispatched to tend to him, for more than an hour (apparently till they ensured he was already dead)!

And this theory about  Russains ("my enemy's enemy's friend...") must be a new stuff. As far as everyone knew he was friendly to communists! Moreover, when asked about Sa'adati being arrested and accused of spying for Soviets, his reply was: "I don't know why they alwas catpure Russian spies in this country, and never an American one!" Mind you this was just after the revolution and before the American embassy hostage crisis! Why would the Russians want to eliminate someone who was not their enemy?!

.....Taleghani was most probably murdered.

On direct orders of khomeini. Unlike other senior clerics he was friendly with seculars, including Marxist prisoners in Shah's jails. I remember reading  somewhere that he was labeled as a "Red Mullah" by MI5. Which makes it highly unlikely for him to be killed by Russians. I actually saw a youtube clip a while back in which his doctor claimed that his access to taleghani after he became ill was hampered by revolutionary guards, his phone was cut off , etc. Anybody else seen it?

His speech is amazing though isnt it? the way he talks about the "charlatans who use religion to gain power, promise houses, money, food, and end up killing, murdrering and torturing..." as if he could see into future... 

"Personal business must yield to collective interest."

Why Russians!

I'm not the source. Who knows? Perhaps, theoretically, Khomeini would have been easier to deal with than anyone who wanted democracy for Iran. The Tudeh party cadres supported Khomeini to the end. "The enemy of my enemy ...," kind of mentality. Iran and Iranians were not an issue! Remember, Khomeini showed no interest in mentioning Iran in his speeches.

....?

mah-o khorshid-o falak dar karrand.....
And its been like this for a long time;meanwhile we're getting older BUT hopefuly wiser.
Maziar

Of Pedar Taleghani

After all these years the circumstances surrounding Taleghani's death which occurred shortly after his visit with the top Soviet diplomat are shrouded in mystery.

One thing is certain though: Had he outlived Khomeini, the political landscape of IRI would have been totally different. Taleghani's perceived association with the MKO, and his personal comment about Sa'dati affair gave his enemies enough ammunition to second-guess his political tendencies.

We have to be careful and understand the differences among Taleghani, Shariati, and Montazeri..............Taleghani was truly a political clergy, while Shariati was an ideologue....................As far as Montazeri is concerned, we all know that he was an unqualified simpleton.

Russians?

Why Russians? No, I mean Khomeyni and co.

And Those Who Sided With Khomeini Claim:

And Those Who Sided With Khomeini Claim nobody warned them! As for his sudden death, some blame the Russians! The Russian ambassador at the time paid Taleghani a visit the night before he died, so they suspect foul play. Could be another conspiracy theory. Who knows?

Him,...

... Shariatmadari, and to a certain degree Modarress I would say.
I wouldn't put Montazeri in the same line as these three. He still collaborated with the thugs in the beginning.
By the way, Taleghani is actually pointing the finger directly at Khomeyni in this speech.
I wouldn't be surprised if one day we find out he was murdered.

R.I.P.

It is precisely for akhoonds like him , Montazeri and thousands more we do not even hear about that I hesitate in bunching all the akhoonds together as a bunch of murdering, greedy  parasites. 

"Personal business must yield to collective interest."