Khoshhaal for Khoshhaals

Jahanshah Javid
by Jahanshah Javid
17-Jun-2008
 

Congratulations to all gay couples in California who got married yesterday. Finally same-sex marriages have become legal in this state. It only makes common sense to stop discrimination against homosexuals and let them get married just like heterosexuals.

***

My daughter was saying that she had heard that a prominent Iranian opposition figure had decided to write a new, progressive constitution for Iran. He and a friend got to work and started discussing and writing down their best suggestions.

In the section about individual freedoms and rights, the opposition figure disagreed with the wording, which he said could give homosexuals the opportunity to take advantage of the new constitution and demand legal recognition and equal rights.

His friend swung his hand, grabbed his own ass and said, "Mageh een koon maale man neest?!" In other words, isn't this ass my own to do as I like with it?

Looks like some of our opposition figures can only go so far in guranteeing individual rights. Religious and cultural beliefs and habits come into play and discourages us to think clearly. It's hard even for some of our most progressive "straight" intellectuals to accept homosexuality as natural and human as heterosexuality.

It's nobody's business who you love, have sex with or marry. Beh maa cheh? What's the harm to society? Absolutely none.

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more from Jahanshah Javid
 
EDS

Thank you for your response

by EDS on


PS: My sons are 18 and 17. You are just beginning.

Tell me about it. At least I know just how much of your life you must have put in it to get them to 17 and 18.


many years ago. I came to the conclusion that I simply wanted my sons
to be whom they are meant to be. I did teach them my values but it was
up to them to accept them or reject them.

I think the underlined is the answer to my question. If you taught them to be gay then yes you wished for them to be gay. No one can force another soul to be who they wish, even their own sons. But by what you wish for them, which in this case is expressed in the values you teach them, you expose what you in reality, not in philosophizing, believe is right and it says nothing of them or who they will become. The fact that you will continue to love them despite your teachings does not expose anything of what you think is right. Rather it exposes that your love for your own children is greater than your love for that particular value you hold. Note that parents more often than not continue to love their children even if they commit a murder. And it is completely understandable. I hope I did not offend you. I do not mean to suggest anything about your children. I just wanted to explain, the point of my question.

Natalia Alvarado-Alvarez

I did think upon your question

by Natalia Alvarado-Alvarez on

many years ago. I came to the conclusion that I simply wanted my sons to be whom they are meant to be. I did teach them my values but it was up to them to accept them or reject them.  I raised my sons to think for themselves.

I can assure you that it wasn't always easy to accept their decision but I respected it none the less. :o)

I love my sons.

Solh va Doosti

Nadia

PS: My sons are 18 and 17. You are just beginning.


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Mr. Kadivar...

by AnonymousJPN (not verified) on

I love your comments; you are the best here! You're almost always right and I always end up with a satisfactory smile on my face after reading your comments. Please keep up with what you're doing and write more.


EDS

Nadia

by EDS on

I wish the best for you and your children.

Please consider the the question and the points made carefully and accurately. The question I asked was not if it turned out that your son or daughter wished to be gay would you stop loving them. In fact, my answer to that hypothetical would be no, the same as yours.

The question was, truthfully, would you wish for your son or daughter to grow up to be gay?

Similarly, I am not coercively telling people anything to which I do not equitably hold a greater right. I am not coercively telling people that they should be gay or not, or love or not to love certain people. I may very well advise people on what I think is right, truthfully, but I am not forcing them to do something over which I do not have a greater right. Here the issue is recognition of marriage. Of course I have the right to shape that decision. This is an issue for which the society must decide, and I as a member certainly have the right to shape that decision.


Natalia Alvarado-Alvarez

EDS I have children and if...

by Natalia Alvarado-Alvarez on

If they were to come to me and say, "Mom, I am gay." I would not ostrocize my child. How can a parent say that he/she loves their child so long as they do as I believe  and as I do?

It is like you believe that prenuptials should be the norm but yet continue to say gays rights are imposed upon you. How are they imposed on you?

Solh va Doosti

Nadia


EDS

moushee

by EDS on

I thought Iran was all abuot cats but it appears that we have so many moushees and mouses. One person started it and now there are a dozens of mouses. Was that through marriage or adoption? :)

Seriously though:

I want to know how you would feel about
this issue of gay rights and society rights if you were gay or you had
a gay adult child who wanted to have a family of his/her own.
Would you keep fighting their rights to have a loving family or would
you make an exception like Dick Cheney (probably your hero) does?

I wanna know!

I am not a parent of a gay child. He is not old enough for me to know for sure. God willing he will be healthy and grow up to be old enough and will not be gay among other wishes I have for him.

So my response is hypothetical since you ask of my feelings. I do not want to claim I know how I would feel while it is not something I have to deal with in reality. Nevertheless, I think that I would not impose on the rest of society to accept gay marriage. I do not wish to be a tyrant. A person who chooses to be gay has also the right to do whatever he wishes to. He just does not have the right to force himself unto others.

As for Dick Cheney views on gay marriage, it is hardly my concern.  He has incomparably greater crimes that he is accountable for. 

Otherwise, since you asked me a hypothetical question, then consider this. And this one is not a hypothetical but a real question. Would you truthfully wish for your baby son or daughter to become gay? Or would you truthfully wish for a gay son or daughter, in case you do not have one? 


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I'm invited to a male gay couple's wedding in

by someone (not verified) on

Next week I'm invited to a male gay couple's wedding in "Shooshtar", next week to "Khatenh Soroon" of a lesbian couple's baby boy (thru in vitro) in "Boushehr", in two weeks invited to a
a gay Namzadi party in "Gachsaran", the following month ....to a...in Yasooj, in Kazeroon, in Aghajari.... and these are the towns and cities, not villages from which I've received invitations...!!
And these are more or less around your birth city of Abadan.

All their families are delighted, over joyed, and no one in planning to kill anyone+ as a result of a Major major major major ... Aberoorizi!
No social gheyrat involved! None!
I think everyone is SO ready for the sexual freedom reform.

-forget abot me I'm cool, I've been living in these parts for almost 30 years! Was even cool before coming to these parts although very young. Kinda more or less seen and heard it all! To each his own is my motto.... but....!


Natalia Alvarado-Alvarez

Mouse I know hollywood people

by Natalia Alvarado-Alvarez on

do as they please. They have tons of money to back them up. I was referring to "us" regular people. 

 I have been discussing the possibilities of me  adopting with my siblings. As you said there are many orphaned children living in misery. My sons are grown now and soon, I will have an empty nest. In a year my career will be fully established. I  will be able to adopt a child in two years, financially speaking.

Solh va Doosti

Nadia


Anonymouse

Single parenting

by Anonymouse on

Natalia, in the case of a single parent (man or woman) there is no custody problem since there won't be a divorce.

I think we're talking about the "legality" of gay marriages.  Single parents have been adopting children for a while now.  Didn't Angelina Jolie adopted children before Brad Pitt? They are still not married, right?  Their poor son's name is hyphenated like a married woman and he is NOT even a woman!

There are so many problems with children in America and around the world and I am willing to bet my life that they would all jump at the chance to leave their misery and join a loving household, regardless of what the definition of the word IS is, or if the parents are gay or single. 

We've all seen TV ads about asking people to help and spend as much a quarter a day (a cup of coffee's worth) to help a child in need and show their pictures.  Now which is a better life, $0.25 a day or living with Helen?!

This is a no brainer but let's DISCUSS!


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EDS are you a parent?

by Anonymoushee (not verified) on

I want to know how you would feel about this issue of gay rights and society rights if you were gay or you had a gay adult child who wanted to have a family of his/her own.
Would you keep fighting their rights to have a loving family or would you make an exception like Dick Cheney (probably your hero) does?

I wanna know!


EDS

IRANdockht

by EDS on


You seem to be the one who is telling people what they can't do.


I find it amusing to see how you're turning the table and blaming the
liberal thinking people here to be forcing their views on you.


your method of argument is very entertaining! :0)

IRANdokht

I am glad that you find my argument entertaining. There is nothing wrong with that. If you read carefully and without prejudice then you may also find that it is truthful.

I am not coercively telling people what they should do that is not my business. Recognition of marriage is my business and in fact the business of society as a whole. If it weren't why are you even asking me or forcing me to recognize it?  That is where the entire issue is. We are not talking about love, sex and such. I absolutely have no right to coercively tell you that you must not love or love such a person. If a gay couple wish to love each other or have sex with each other it is not my business to coercively stick my nose where it does not belong. The entire issue here is about society, and me by extention recognizing a contract.

Do you follow? You and others wish to force the society to do as you please. This is unjust. The arguments have all been on how gay sex is natural and this and that. Ok, so you like to believe that. Not just that the arguments have been literred with elitist insults towards those who do not. And I do not and in fact the absolute majority of Americans in this case do not either.


Natalia Alvarado-Alvarez

Single women?

by Natalia Alvarado-Alvarez on

I know this is not the main topic but since people mentioned adoption. Can a single woman adopt a child in North America? I know that in the past they gave preference to couples.

Solh va Doosti

Nadia


Maryam Hojjat

Do'nt ask, Do'nt tell !

by Maryam Hojjat on

 I personally do not care about people personal life.  human sexuality is a very personal and private and is no one business. I support Do NOT ASK, DO NOT TELL Attitude. 


Anonymouse

Abarmard and Rosie

by Anonymouse on

Abarmard, you can always say what JJ says, "man che midonam?" :-)

Rosie, I don't respond to emails. Only if it is from JJ who is my BFF and ever!


Maryam Hojjat

Humane treatment of homosexuals!

by Maryam Hojjat on

Hi, Guys  I read all your comments.  I have homosexual friends male & female.  These friends of mine are nicest human beings I have ever known.  My male homosexual friend is living with another gay. He is very productive , kind , loving person.  My female homosexual friend who has a 7 years old beautiful, smart doughter through in vitro fertilization from bank sperm. She is excellant single mom and a very productive member of society. 

It is not matter how people live their personal lives as long as they are productive member of society and do not harm any one. 

Homosexual in any society must have all rights as any other member of society and must be treated with respect and human dignity.  


Abarmard

Anonymouse

by Abarmard on

I am not sure about the law. I would assume the best solution would be to examine which one is more fit, mentally and financially rather than gender default.

So in the case of your example would be the man:)


Anonymouse

Irandokht

by Anonymouse on

That's how it turned out to be in my blog.  People were telling others what to do and were blaming IRI for it.  Here people are telling others who to marry and blaming society for it.


Azarin Sadegh

It is a good news!

by Azarin Sadegh on

It happens that I have had many gay/lesbian friends and colleagues and they have been the nicest people I'ave ever met.

One of them is a writer who has written a lot about being homosexual in America. We met in my first writing class (writing personal essay) and he was the one who couldn't stop crying listening to other's sad stories. Please read some of his essays to realize that after all they are human too and it is so ignorant to compare their dilemma to incest and child abuse (incest and child abuse are forced sex between an adult and a child who has any saying in this relationship, so how you would dare comparing it to a loving relationship between two happy adults?).

I am sure my friend Jeff could be a much better father/mother than many of hateful heterosexual people. 

Voila a few of my friend Jeff Buppert's essays:

//www.madashellclub.net/?p=856

//www.madashellclub.net/?p=2180

And his essay about gay marriage:

//www.madashellclub.net/?p=2406

Azarin

 

 


IRANdokht

EDS

by IRANdokht on

You seem to be the one who is telling people what they can't do.

I find it amusing to see how you're turning the table and blaming the liberal thinking people here to be forcing their views on you.

your method of argument is very entertaining! :0)

IRANdokht


Anonymouse

Abarmard

by Anonymouse on

Who would get the custody in a divorce? The man or the man?


EDS

The false information and inconsistencies

by EDS on

In JJ's and also Abarmard's arguments are enormous, not to mention the self-elitist attitude. This of course exposes prejudice and uncomfortableness with your position.

JJ: Homosexuality has always existed along with heterosexuality. That's as natural as it gets.

Really? Is there evidence of such? Even if it were true, in what way does this make it something that should be endorsed. Similarly, murder has existed among humans for a long time, in fact very likely predating homosexuality by ages, then does this endorse murder? Thus this argument in and of itself is not valid.

JJ: But the fact is that you are either born gay or heterosexual or
something in the middle -- or not. Parents or people and society do not
create the hormones that make men or women attractive to me and you.

Really? This is a fact!? I am afraid your view of fact is really far from what it actually is. There are at best weak theories on how one becomes gay. Science does not know yet. What has been relatively well established is that both heredity and upbringing incline one to a certain behavior. Similarly, some are born with a tendency to kill or steal. This does not validate such behavior.

Therefore none of such arguments carry any weight. They are an attempt to justify a prejudice.

Abarmard:
Kids recognize love and happiness and care less for gender, you do.

Really!? You not only know what kids recognize but also know what others such as myself do to! And on top of that would like to dictate to me what I should do. Per my post, it is absolutely my business and the business of society if they wish to or do not wish to recognize gay marraige. Gay's do not have the right to force the society to recognize marriage for them.


IRANdokht

Mr Kadivar

by IRANdokht on

I am very confused as to why you hit to Sahrayeh karballaa again, maybe I am missing something but I don't see anything in JJ or Abarmard's comments that would require your following reply:

I bet now monarchists awill have ALL THE FLAWS OF THE WORLD !


Reza Pahlavi is a Homophobe and Gay Hater ? What Else ?


We Are Against Gays, We Hate Jews and We are Intolerant !


Come On JJ & Abarmand you have more intelligent arguments to
justify your joy to see the Gay community have equal rights in San
Francisco than blame it on the "Monarchists "and the "Opposition".

 

I am curious now: Reza Pahlavi az koja oomad in vassat?

IRANdokht


Abarmard

Ben be fair

by Abarmard on

I take the public transportation daily and many of those parents should have not been a parent. they should have not been allowed to have children, believe me, they are scary.

So now are we going to examine everyone and every couple, including their mental state before allowing them to bear a child? Since the children health and future is at stake? No we won't.

So if there is a law, should apply to all, otherwise it's unfair and discriminatory.


Rosie T.

DKadivar

by Rosie T. on

It has been proven OVER and OVER and OVER again that children of gay couples DO NOT grow up gay, they are OVERWHELMINGLY heterosexual.

Homosexuality came to be accepted as a normal behavior not only because of AIDS but also because heterosexuality was no longer NEEDED for society.  A bunch of kids was no longer needed to work the farms.  Single people have LOTS of disposable income and this is good for capitalism.  Etc., etc.  Post-industrial ociety was READY for homosexuality, for that estimated ten percent (which from my observations teaching in classrooms sounds about right).

Constantly constantly homosexuals come out of families where they were brought up pretty much the same as their heterosexual siblings.  So what HAPPENED to them to make them gay if they were not born with a genetic dispositon to it?  Studies have never been able to demonstrate a commonality when comparing the families of homosexuals

Homosexuality exists in animals.  Which ones?  Don't recall.  I'll google it if you want me to.  Rats under stress in labs show frequent homosexual behavior, however stress is a NORMAL condition for humans so you can't say based on that that just because it's not completely genetic it's not NORMAL. 

And actually IMHO pederasty, bestiality, even cannibalism are also NORMAL.  Tribal societies exhibit an extraordinary panoply of sexual and other behaviors,  And not just tribal (consider bestiality in rural areas etc.  People ADMIT to this).  The issue is that what works for some societies doesn't work for other societies and the behaviors I just mentioned are not only no longer needed in post-industrial societies, they are dangerous, and so they are illegal.  And that is why I never get into discvssions about Mohammed and what's her name, Ayesha (Khadiza was the first wife, right?) I NEVER discuss the pederasty issue. My two cents. 

If anyone wants me to goggle something I just asserted I will happily do so.  I would rather not engage in an extended discussion about it here because I don't want to hog Jahanshah's blog.  What I said is pretty much what I've believed for ages and I doubt very much I'll be swayed, so it would be a looooong and ultimately fruitless discussion.  But if anyone wants to try to sway me you can contact me privately at the contact button on my account.    :o)


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جناب JJ

Anonymous? (not verified)


جناب JJ

این مَثل فارسی در اینجا خیلی صادق هست : کاسه گَرم تر از آش

فعلأ سرِ کارم وشرمنده نمی تونم بیشتر بنویسم. خدمتتون بعدأ بیشتر خواهم نوشت . .


Ben Madadi

Re: JJ

by Ben Madadi on

Thanks JJ! Yes, definitely men and women, naturally, have sex with their opposite sex, so we can say that homosexuality is not something that comes natuarally, so it is something unnatural. But a free society cannot force mature men and women from doing whatever they want with each other, though as EDS had mentioned this also definitely can go for poligamy and incest as long as there is no pedophilia involved. But, all I am thinking about is the children's rights! Society has the obligation to look after children's rights. Do we have studies showing that gay couples raise children no worse than normal couples? I doubt we do. They might. They can also do much better than many normal heterosexual couples. However I see this, i.e. right of adoption by gay couples, is something to think about more carefully, because children's rights and their future is at stake.


Anonymouse

DK jan

by Anonymouse on

When did JJ say anything against "monarchy"?  The "opposition" groups in Europe or America have not done anything funny?!  For example have not SOME of them given dates as to when they are "certain" IRI will fall?!

We can talk about marriage and the gay version but I don't think monarchy has a place in this discussion.  Ahmadinejad and his claim of no homos in Iran yes, but not monarchy, not yet anyway.


Darius Kadivar

Gay Adoption

by Darius Kadivar on

Heterosexuality is responsible for birth not homosexuality so from that point of view you can't claim that being entirely Gay is as natural or equal a behavior in its consenquences to heterosexuality. One gives life the other is at best a result of a heterosexual behavior.

So quite honestly a Gay will always be indepted to a heterosexual than the otherway round.

Now if you mean BiSexuality that is the exception to the rule.


Darius Kadivar

JJ & Abarmand:" Takhsireh Shoma Saltanat Talabah! " ? ;0)

by Darius Kadivar on

I bet now monarchists awill have ALL THE FLAWS OF THE WORLD !

Reza Pahlavi is a Homophobe and Gay Hater ? What Else ?

We Are Against Gays, We Hate Jews and We are Intolerant !

Come On JJ & Abarmand you have more intelligent arguments to justify your joy to see the Gay community have equal rights in San Francisco than blame it on the "Monarchists "and the "Opposition".

Babah even Parviz Sayyad told Ali to "Go to San Francsico" and That was Before the Revolution.

Chee Begam Mashgasem Ta Gabre AH, AH, AH, AH

LOL 

 


Abarmard

Children must grow in a loving environment

by Abarmard on

And that's the most and ultimate importance. Many single or heterosexuals couples are making lives hell for their kids but have a right to own them because of their sexuality. Gay couples could provide a secure and happy home for the kids, and many of them do.

Love is the factor here not sexuality. And it's not a man or woman that makes a home, but love of a family...And family is caring individuals who love one another regardless of their sexuality or gender.

Kids recognize love and happiness and care less for gender, you do.