Vasspaan

That is the question

And it appears to have been done so as soon as Mr DW Duke, California attorney at law, was alerted to its existence and posted here.

This post has four pages of responses

How is it that this posting with so many comments has been bumped from the list of most commented?

Fishiness

It's a little fishy that this blog and its 113 comments is suddenly taken off the list of Most Discussed right after DW Duke posted here. BTW is that you below?

//www.myspace.com/dwduke

//iranian.com/main/blog/dw-duke/tragic-story-ayatollah-boroujerdi

DW Duke is a partner in the California based law firm of Giardinelli and Duke, APC.  He
is a writer, a human rights activist, President of International
Children’s Aid and legal counsel to Stop Child Executions which are
organizations devoted to securing the inalienable rights of children
and others throughout the world in nations where human rights abuses
occur.   

D.W.
Duke is a principle in the California law firm of Giardinelli &
Duke, APC. He received his Juris Doctorate from Washington University
School of Law. Mr. Duke is a noted lecturer on various legal matters
and has published several books on legal topics including Principles of
Liberty, a Practical Guide to Constitutional Law, Understanding and
Avoiding Medical Malpractice and California Insurance Law. D.W. assists
SCE Campaign with legal research with respect to international
convention and obligations and also contributes articles and reports on
the subject of Child Executions.

How do you figure that?

?

Dialectic Liturgy

Interesting use of the 1st person plural.   :)

We're not talking about the right

Those Who Support It

Those who support it have every right to their beliefs including the right to support bills that I consider inappropriate.  We can't take away someone's freedom of speech simply because that speech is not consistent with ours.  If we do then we are no better than the "mind control thugs."

And what of the groups who support it?

What are your views there?

Law Would Violate Human Rights

If the law is as reported it would violate numerous human rights provisions including the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights and the UN Covenant on Civil and Political Rights among numerous others.  Moreover, it is an affront to civilized societies everywhere.      

Elimination of All Forms of Prejudice

The obvious conclusion to anyone claiming to love and adhere to the teachings and faith of Baha'u'llah and those not involved in the faith in any way as well, is that there is no justice possible through any administration which not only does not uphold but even actively works in diametric opposition to one of the founding principles, the very core tenets, or as we say Basic Principles of those very same teachings. That one of the 12 Basic Priciples of the Baha'i Faith I refer to is the elimination of all forms of prejudice. Actively persecuting anyone for any reason which includes the very personal and private matter of their own sexual identity is far beyond the pale and is a clear indication that such an administration is to be avoided completely. This is a matter of spiritual common sense. 

This is but one of that bogus Haifan administration's clear violations of the teachings revealed by Baha'u'llah, who is the return of Christ seated upon the Throne of David. 

Self doubt and low esteem? Is that why you took us to court?

Pay attention! It has nothing to do with self doubt and low esteem and everything to do with the fact that your monstrous Wilmette NSA took us to court and has had us tied up in Court for years. This is just the latest of monstrous actions taken by your NSA against me and the community of the Orthodox Baha'i.  You can continue to ignore reality or you can face up to it. //www.truebahai.com/court_case.html

Au contraire, Faryar khan

Always somebody else's fault.

Faryar- I will repeat the suggestion I made on another blog as it is equally applicable here. I would suggest you consider the tone of your statements in light of the current legal problems facing the Church of Scientology, and the criticism leveled at it by its former members. Right now, you are using the language, strategies and organizational rhetoric adopted by cults to the the letter, wether quoting your own writings or through your own words. 

//www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/exscientologist-sues-the-cult-for-loss-of-girlfriend-and-business-1825557.html

 A Church of Scientology spokeswoman said yesterday: "It is a nuisance, because it attempts to reopen something which was fully resolved in2007. As far as we are concerned, it is in breach ofthe agreement Mr Craig made then.At a time when our church is enjoying unprecedented growth it is not unexpected that some disgruntled or self-serving individuals might seek to profit from our expansion, or for other reasons try to cause disruption."

//altreligion.about.com/b/2009/05/13/scientology-its-always-someone-elses-fault.htm

Wednesday May 13, 2009 

"I've tried finding the Church's side in similar accusations. Unfortunately, it's more of the same: accusers are malicious individuals, often disgruntled ex-members, who seek to harm the Church through lies and distortion. Time after time after time. How many times can anyone plausibly believe that?

I've dealt with a lot of ex-members of various religions, and they display a variety of emotions, everyone from wanting to just move on to something more meaningful to a quest for vengeance, enlightening the world about the shortfalls of the their previous faith. Rarely, however, are words like "fraud," "extortion," and "intimidation" used. Rarely is there any attempt or even hope that people in their former faith go to jail.

So apparently there's a large conspiracy of vindictive nut cases out there, all of which are bizarrely fixated on the Church of Scientology for reasons entirely removed from any present or former behavior of the Church. The Church is totally a victim in all of this. Always. Sure.

Sooner or later, someone is going to clean house. If the Church is unwilling to even address its critics and examine its own faults, the judicial branch will eventually do it for them. There's no reason that Scientology has to be marred by these continuing scandals.They could do something constructive about them, rather than just keep repeating paranoid rants.

There is no hate...just your own self doubt and low esteem..

I or any other Bahai dont hate you..but as individuals will protect its name and community against your unsuccesful attempts to divide it into sects , to defame and corrupt it.

The way you feel, your actions, the use of internet to spread lies and decieve is a reflection of your own character.

Unfortunately The hate you feel is your own self doubt and low esteem.

exactly

I agree. I have been on the receiving end of their "warm Baha'i love" and this kind of "love" consists of the fires of hell.  They shun and attack and hate and then they say it is love.  They attack anyone who believes differently than they do because they have great doubt about the truth of their position.  To see them in action, take a look at the court action the heterodox Baha'is took against the Orthodox Baha'is and the BPUPC: //www.truebahai.com/court_case.html

Argumentative fallacies repeated on this blog

List of fallacies

Ignoratio Elenchi

Red Herring

These are precisely the forms of argumentation our Haifan friends have been offering on this blog to explain the actions of their bodies in Uganda and in Haifa, Israel. BTW, and kps59 can independently confirm this themselves, I was first alerted to this story by kps59. FYI

It also occurs to me that those who rant, rave and complain about "doubt" and "sowing doubt" this and that, actually possess great amounts of doubt themselves and are in total denial about it. From a wayfaring/suluk point of view, this says that such people haven't even taken the first initial step upon the Valley of Search (vadi-i-talab). And I submit that this is the only fruit, not to mention folly, of worshiping a bureaucracy and seeing with an institutions eyes and ears rather than with your God-given own!

Ignoratio Elenchi

Or "Ignoring the issue", commonly known as "Red Herring". It's used in an attempt to keep the conversation or discussion from focusing on the issue at hand and is a strategy aimed at distraction in order to turn the fair minded away from a reasonable conversation of the true topic of concern and to distract from that which would expose the one employing the Red Herring in some lie or nefarious deed.

Baha'i Mazlum Nama'i/Feigning Victimhood is a bogus non-argument

Seagull, all those verses from the Qur'an and the sayings of 'Ali can just as well be applied to yourselves here, and more so, especially in how you have treated me and any other individual who has ever raised their voices against you -- like the Orthodox Bahais or even Marge.

Also, these quotes and the argument you are attempting to invoke with them, besides being irrelevent, are completely sidetracking from the main issue of this blog. I believe you are doing this deliberately because it is part of a longstanding strategy I have observed from Haifan Baha'is going back years designed to distract attention from a controversy. It is a bait and switch strategy and in logic it is a complete fallacy. It is also an observable strategy members of your creed have utilized in  literature to unjustfiably attack the Bayanis, and others.

Now kindly respond to the points made by Larry, on the one hand, and offer some kind of explanation as to why the Ugandan Bahai administration and the Baha'i world center have jumped on this anti-gay and anti-civil rights hysteria over there, on the other. And especially why, pray tell, are you making common cause in this issue with fundamentalist Muslims and rightwing Evangelical Christians? These are the issues you need to be addressing and not sleight of handing with quotes from the Qur'an and the sayings of 'Ali (as) that can just as well be applied to yourselves.

Common, brother, what do you think about this case from your own perspective? Don't you think this involvement makes you look like total creeps?

[Crossposted to USENET]

Well

Actually the verse is timeless and applies to those who qualify, everytime that there is a new revelation from God through His messengers. The only difference is the method that God chooses to deal with them, and that is circumstantial. This time around people have come a long way so there is no use for the sword, if you know what it means. So I leave it at that and that is still plenty, afterall of what use is the rain to a rock. Also a couple more verses to note on what Mohammad PBUH thought of division as well as hazarat Ali advice to the faithful of his time regarding the doubters and association with them. I will not mention the body parts of the various sect members that used to adorn the store fronts and the streets of the faithful.

Therefore, do not give away to doubts (about the truth which
Islam has proclaimed) and do not be mislead by schism into blind alleys. Beware
that sinful temptation has drawn heavy curtains and the darkness they create in
blinding you to your reason.

                (Ali b.
Abi Taalib, Letters from Nahjul Balaagh)

Take tight hold of God's rope altogether, and do not part in
sects; but remember the favours of God towards you, when ye were enemies and He
made friendship between your hearts, and on the morrow ye were, by His favour,
brothers.

                (The
Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura   3 -
Imran's Family)

So obey not the unbelievers and fight strenuously with them
in many a strenuous fight. He it is who has let loose the two seas, this one
sweet and fresh, that one bitter and pungent, and has made between them a
rigorous prohibition.

                (The
Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura  25 - The
Discrimination)

When they come to you they say, 'We believe;' but they
entered in with unbelief, and they went out therewith, and God knows best what
they did hide. Thou wilt see many of them vieing in sin and enmity

                (The
Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura   5 - The
Table)

Hi Seagull, Actually if

Hi Seagull,

Actually if you see anything but God you are unworthy. It is even more unworthy to deliberately place anything: prophet, manifiestation, any idol, as intermediary between oneself and God.

Cheers

Larry Rowe

That verse from the Qur'an

Applies to no one else here but you guys. That said, since when have you guys been offering benedictions and salavat to Muhammad (pbuh) when your other members here, Faramarz Fateh, have gone out of their way to articulate blatant Islamophobia? Seems like you're switching tack now that you have been called on such sectarian hatred previously expressed by you.

That stated, the neutral observer should note that every response by the Haifan Bahai contingency here is articulating increasingly more rabid forms of sectarian bigotry. There are no reasonable or rational arguments being offered by them, but rather pure fundamentalist and sectarian hatred couched in totally transparent Orwellian double-speak. This is the agenda that this particular organization is ultimately wishing to bring to a post-IR Iran.

[Crossposted to USENET]

Mohammad PBUH had his share of your kind of decsendants

When they come to you they say, 'We believe;' but they
entered in with unbelief, and they went out therewith, and God knows best what
they did hide. Thou wilt see many of them vieing in sin and enmity

                (The
Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura   5 - The
Table)

kps59 and David Kourosh

Khaak bar farghash neshinad aankeh yaar az man gereft

How despirate is the descendant of Davood to chime in on behalf of azal who is still stuck with sorting out his own thoughts all the while that he is fighing to protect his fragile, sensetive borken ego. One thing you all have in common,God assailed you with an unleashed ego.

a fool is a fool even if he multiplies
"When they come to you they say, 'We believe;' but they entered in with unbelief, and they went out therewith, and God knows best what they did hide. Thou wilt see many of them vieing in sin and enmity

(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 5 - The Table)

Satan and his minions are at it again...

this will be my last post on this subject...

I pray that God will forgive me for the time wasted on arguing with these lost sheep....

Trying to teach Azal anything is like trying to teach a pig to sing...

you waste your time  and your annoy the pig 

There is nothing wrong with

There is nothing wrong with being gay or lesbian or transgender; we deserve full rights like straight people do regardless of what some religions say.

The TRUE Universal House of Justice does not support hate crime!

There is One True Baha'i Universal House of Justice and it stands in absolute opposition to this and all other forms of prejudice, intolerance and persecution!

NO PLACE in the compendium of Baha'i Writings is this injustice written of in this article enjoined, supported, or condoned, on the contrary such injustice is absolutely condemned!

All Baha'is living under the yolk of oppression of any "Universal House of Justice" so called which supports prejudice and persecution of this or any other part of our human family are admonished to end all affilliation with that organization and seek the only TRUE UHJ which has the lineal descendant of David, the great grandson of 'Abdu'l-Baha seated as it's executive.

Thank you Azal, for inviting me to Iranian.com

kps59

Hoda Hafez

Wow, another fools gold mine here,

dimondsould, you are either taking the readers here as dumn or you are really confused.

To see Gods with their own eyes and hear his melody with their own ears" is refering to the same trecherous and doutful who asked Mohammad PBUH the questin, why God did not send his angles and instead a man like us, to which he replied that the angles would not be safe with them. I wont go into the detail of how God then decided for them, but you can find similar concepts in all scriptures.

But you sure know how to confuse yourself with taking things out of context and that only happens when you just cant get a grasp on reality. I had the same challenge with god and religion and the faith when I was in high school but thank God he helped me with all tests and walked with me thru the deserts full of dimondbacks, I still had to do my homework and prepare.

To see God with ones own eyes, first one has to be WORTHY,

and that impies a lot of things, but knowing God, he will let you be the judge of your own worthiness and then you will have to make an hounest decision.Thats how it works for the most part anywhere else to. The judging yourself part is the most difficult part here.

For right now though the only god you can actually see with your own eyes is the godhead Azal, and his melodies have sprinkled all over the place. But let me warn you the light that comes off that head could further diminish the ability to see.

get real,

A fool is still a fool even if he fools many  

The truth is Faryarm that

The truth is Faryarm that today the whole ethos of Baha'ism is diametrically opposed to one of it's supposedly central principles: "the independent search for the truth". Take these words of Baha'i Counseler Rebbeca Murphy for example:

"We don't want to be those people who want to see God with their
own eyes, or hear His melody with their own ears, because we
have been given the gift of being able to see through the eyes of
the House of Justice and listen through the ears of the House of
Justice."
To hear this section of her talk go to:
//media1.bahai.us/tab/Highlights/Sunday/30_Counselor_Murphy_Remarks.mp3

Why has Baha'ism begun to actually fear a truly independent as well as conscientious search for the truth? Baha'is need to ask themselves this question.

Cheers

Larry Rowe

Satan never stands alone because he's surrounded by vapid sycoph

Gol gofti, Ali Akbar. Gol-i-golan!! When Subh-i-Azal was abandoned in Edirne due to the fact that your founder murdered everyone around him, Husayn 'Ali himself was surrounded by the likes of Mirza Agha Jan Khadimullah, Ustad Muhammad Salmani, Zayn'ul-Muqarribin, Musa Kalim and other similar vapid sycophants he claimed as his letters of the living. Indeed Satan is always surrounded by vapid sycophants, and no more is this dictum truer than your own founder's behavior and career in the late Baghdad period, in Edirne and Acre!

So the next time you people try to say that I have no friends or supporters I'll be sure to remind you that this in itself would be a tacit endorsement of my veracity on your part per your own logic above that Satan is surrounded by vapid sycophants (multiplicity) while God stands Alone (unity). So which is it going to be? Am I a one man show or do I have supporters?

[Crossposted to USENET] 

The prevalence of TRUTH over untruth

//www.thepetitionsite.com/1/stop-bahai-anti-gay

The Baha'i Faith, a world religion that espouses many beautiful, forward thinking ideas, also unfortunately overtly condemns homosexuality and teaches that it is a spiritual "handicap."  Gay Baha'is face the loss of their Baha'i administrative rights if they are open and honest about their sexual orientation and lifestyle.

Recently, the Baha'i community of Uganda participated in an interfaith effort to deport an American journalist for covering a LGBTI  human rights event called, "Let Us Live in Peace."  The Baha'is of Uganda also advocated the arrest of all LGBTI individuals in Uganda for their "immorality."  Please see the following links for more information:

//commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/peter_tatchell/2007/09/ugandan_gays_demand_freedom.html

//news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6952157.stm

//www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007/aug/07082103.html

Baha'is
who disagree with this blatant discrimination face administrative and
spiritual "sanctions" from their religious authorities.

It is time to speak up.

If you find the Baha'i position on homosexuality offensive and discriminatory, please sign this petition.

If you are a Baha'i, and you sign, please be aware that you risk administrative sanctions from the Baha'i institutions.*  But ask yourself why you should have administrative rights, when they are denied your gay brothers and sisters.  Perhaps
it is time to demonstrate your commitment to justice, fairness, and the
oneness of humanity by risking your own administrative rights in a
stand for justice.  Do not let the type of actions that happened in Uganda be done in your name.  Take a stand.

For more information about the Baha'i Faith's stance on homosexuality, please visit:

//www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bah.htm

If
you are a Baha'i and receive warnings, counseling, or sanctions due to
your voicing your disaggreement with Baha'i discrimination through this
petition, please consider informing us so that we might inform the media, anonymously if you prefer.  Consider the words of Martin Luther King, Jr:

"I
submit that an individual who breaks an unjust law must do so openly,
lovingly, and with a willingness to accept the penalty.  I submit that
an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and
who accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the
conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality
expressing the highest respect for the law." (Why We Can't Wait, Page 83)