From "What are the most important problems facing Iranian Women?" a roundtable discussion with Homa Zanjanizadeh, Nasrin Mosaffa and Gholam-'Abbas Tavassoli in Tehran. "Zanan" women's magazine (Tir 1376, July 1997), pp 28-35. For summarized text, click here.

We have organized this month's roundtable on the topic "What are the most important problems facing Iranian Women?", with the participation of Dr. Gholam-'Abbas Tavassoli (sociologist), Dr. Homa Zanjanizadeh (sociologist), Dr. Nasrin Mosaffa (an expert in political science).

The questions being discussed during this roundtable, like the previous two roundtables are as follows: In your view what are the most important problems facing Iranian Women? If you want to make a list of these problems, what would be the main points that you would stress? To what extent are these problems limited to women and to what extent to the whole society (including men and women)? Do all our women face similar problems? To what extent do these problems have a national dimension, and to what extent do they concern the women throughout the world? Finally, what are the roots of the problems faced by our women?

These are some fundamental questions which we believe are of interest to all our women. Answers to these questions are not answers that can be provided by a few people over a short period, and to be regarded as final answers; because these problems and their answers have historical roots. In the same way that these problems have germinated, grown and developed over a long period of time, the answers to those problems also require a long-term process and they will be influenced by collective actions and reactions of all different members of the society who have different beliefs and interests.

It is interesting that, despite the importance of the issue and the need for it to be raised on a social and public arena, so far no attempt has been made to dissect the issue from an intellectual point of view. The fact that this has not taken place is an interesting issue by itself, and an answer to it may clarify some other layers of our social problems. Our attempt is to raise these issues with experts, although one cannot predict the course of collective discussions.

The issues raised in this roundtable were more concerned with discussing the issues around the subject, rather than going to the heart of the matter. This is why some practical and tangible issues facing our women have been discussed more than theoretical subjects. In any case, there is no need to say that these elementary efforts are merely aimed at providing an opportunity for discussing the main features of an issue which is regarded as "important" -- nothing more and nothing less.

Tavassoli: While expressing my thanks to Zanan which has also invited a man to take part in a roundtable devoted to the problems faced by women, regarding the questions raised I should say that they are all linked together; and maybe the second question should come before the first question. The problems that we have in our society are numerous, and they affect both men and women; so much so that sometimes it is difficult to separate the problems faced by men from those faced by women. Therefore, first we should define the extent of the problems which are common to both men and women, and where the special problems faced by women start. I thought a great deal in order to isolate and distinguish the special problems faced by women, and this was rather difficult. In any case, in my view, first a few issues concerning women should be clarified so that one can express an opinion about them. For instance, certain issues have a historical dimension. One should try to look at the history of relations between men and women, one should try to look at the status of women in our society and in our traditional attitudes. How should women dress? What roles should they have at work or at home?... In this historical process religion has also had a role to play; of course, not purely religious reasons, but a combination of traditions and what religion has prescribed, and the interpretations which have been made about the status of women in the name of religion. In my view, we have sometimes confused and distorted certain issues both from a religious and social point of view, and this has led to some misunderstandings; such as the position of women in the judiciary, in universities or in positions which are regarded as being in charge. In all the studies and researches that we made, we noticed that nowhere in the Koran or in the [religious] traditions has it been said clearly that women cannot become judges. There are certain traditions about learning and teaching and ijtihad, but there is no unanimity of views on these issues. However, as the dominant attitude has been the one which has been influenced by tradition and has regarded the status of women as being inferior to that of men, this has automatically led to the view that women cannot attain the highest level of learning and ijtihad... I should add that from a historical point of view these issues are not limited to Iran. There have been similar cases all over the world. In any case, under present conditions in our society, unfortunately, there are certain distinctions in the status and role of women from political, cultural and economic points of view. Some of these are in fact due to the obstacles and mental conditions in women themselves, and some of them are due to cultural and social obstacles. The obstacles and mental conditions in women themselves include the views that they hold concerning themselves and the status which they give to themselves. This depends on their own feeling to see to what extent they are prepared to involve themselves in social roles. In this context, we are not talking purely about a number of educated women in cities. One should see what roles women as a whole see for themselves. Let us not dwell purely on the avant-garde women who accept the role of the leadership of women movements and who are intellectually more advanced. Even in university circles when there are certain debates, and when there is no obstacle in the participation of women, the participation of women in the debates is much less than that of men. It is up to our girls and women to step forward. Of course, due to those cultural and social obstacles which we referred to, the field of activity is not quite open to girls yet.

Zanan Magazine: If we wish to summarize what you said, you referred to cultural, religious, social, economic and political aspects of the issue and to some of the root causes of women's problems. You referred to general social problems and you added that in the case of women these problems tend to be more acute than those of men. Dr. Zanjanizadeh, can you please express your views.

Zanjanizadeh: I wish to thank the dear officials of Zanan magazine for providing this opportunity to a woman from the provinces to take part in this roundtable. If we look at the implied aspect of the question, namely the differences between the existing situation and the desired situation, we can consider the issues faced by women from two points of view: The first viewpoint is the one which does not regard the society as being formed as the result of the mutual influences of people upon each other. In other words, if there are some inequalities in the society, they are believed to be the result of human nature, and human nature cannot be changed. However, from a sociological point of view, these inequalities are the result of social relations; or in other words they have been brought about by the society itself. Consequently, if we change social relations or social frameworks, the problem can be solved. What I wish to say is that the problems faced by women are not the result of women's inequality [with men], but are due to men wishing to institutionalize these inequalities. Therefore, we should try to see how we can eradicate these institutionalized inequalities or these cultural characteristics that have become a feature of the society. Naturally, a male-dominated system wishes to portray these inequalities as being natural and universal realities, and to conclude that they cannot be eradicated. Therefore, the essential question is whether these inequalities are natural or whether they are the result of social relations. Naturally, the outlook which tries to find a solution to the existing system believes in the second proposition. Now, in view of these inequalities and differences which have been institutionalized, if we wish to see what are the economic and political reasons for those inequalities and for women's own perception of themselves, we come across two main factors: One is the legal system, and the other is the cultural system. These two are at the root of the inequalities that have existed throughout the centuries. They overshadow the economic activities of women and their role in politics. Of course, these two factors are not very different from each other, and sometimes their boundaries merge into one another. For instance, what do we mean when we talk of "human beings"? If we regard all the people of the world, regardless of their sex, as human beings, there is no reason to have a different legal definition for each one of them. If we say that all human beings have certain rights, and one of these rights is that they can develop their potential to the utmost, then this would apply to everyone and would not differentiate between men and women. In that case, even special characteristics of women--for instance that they give birth to children--becomes part of the general social issues. The separation of the male and female issues demonstrates that we look at human beings from two different points of view. Of course, such an outlook has many dangers; because even when we talk in general terms, in practice the group which is ahead receives greater attention and will receive the greatest benefits. I believe that women's problems are exactly the problems of our society. However, it does not mean that in those areas when we have inequalities and backwardness we do not stress women's problems. If among all the problems faced by our women we wish to point out the most important of those problems, we can say that their basic problems are legal and cultural. Of course, the cultural aspect of these problems will have to be addressed concerning women's own identity and their perception of themselves which are the result of legal, political, economic and cultural factors.

Zanan Magazine: So far, most of the views which have been expressed around the problems of women, whether in Zanan magazine or elsewhere, have revolved around two general outlooks: Whether to regard women's problems as an aspect of general social problems; or whether, like men, women also have some special problems. However, from what you have just said, one can conclude that the problems faced by men, or generally all social problems, are secondary to women's problems. In other words, this is quite contrary to the other point of view. Is this a correct reading of your remarks?

Zanjanizadeh: No, I do not want to divide things into primary and secondary issues. All I am saying is that if you deal with women's issues as one of the problems faced by the society, to that extent you are undermining their importance. I say that I do not see a difference between women's problems and the society's problems. Who has created the society? The society is not something separate from us, but is formed as the result of these relations. From a practical point of view, separating these problems is useful, because it concentrates our minds on some special problems. However, to make these problems as too separate and individual reduces their importance and marginalizes them. Therefore, I believe that problems facing women are not problems concerned with only one half of the society. They are the problems of the society in its entirety. However, in view of the fact that there are certain inequalities in the society and these inequalities are being institutionalized and implemented, then it is important to ask the question of "What are women's problems?" I do not regard them to be separate and I do not believe that some of them are superior to others. As I said earlier, our problem is the issue of the superiority of men which in the course of our history has become institutionalized. Through family life and education they have become internalized, to such an extent that even women believe that they have certain defects and disabilities. Our educational system forces women from the very beginning to look down upon themselves. Look at the games played by children, so that you can predict how little girls and little boys will behave in the future. The games played by girls are limited, without much activity and are individual; whereas the games played by boys are mainly social and in the form of group activities. This teaches them how to divide their labor, to learn about management, and above all to express their own views. What will happen as the result of these different types of activities? The girls will become incapable in taking part in collective activities, and they will have less chance to take individual decisions and cooperate with others. In other words, all that we regard as feminine characteristics have come about as the result of this process of social engineering. As the result of this male-dominated culture, there are times that women get together to some extent; but later, even when their own interests are at stake, they are faced with rivalry; while men, as the result of their childhood games, have a greater ability for a more open character. By this process of social engineering I mean that part of the cultural process which gives rise to this very feminine characteristics in women; and makes them feel that they are inferior, they are less confident and they do not believe in their own abilities. Therefore, if we look at them from outside, we may conclude that the feminine character is like that.

Zanan Magazine: Dr. Mosaffa, it is your turn to express your views.

Mosaffa: I too wish to express my thanks for this opportunity which has been provided so that I can learn something from this roundtable; and I believe that these discussions are useful for the whole of the society. I believe that it is now quite clear that women are faced with a number of problems. One of the issues which I have always debated in my mind is whether we should concentrate on these problems and make a lot of fuss about them, or whether we should have a more relaxed and gradual attitude toward the whole issue. Maybe on many occasions when we are faced with certain situations we may unconsciously believe that certain actions have been deliberate. I may think that I have been faced with this situation because I am a woman. At times, I truly wonder whether certain problems which I have faced have been due to the fact that I am a woman, or whether men are also faced with the same problems. In any case, women have a number of common problems with men. However, I divide women's issues into three categories: First, those issues which are faced by women because of their sexual characteristics, such as giving birth, the problems and responsibilities that they have regarding their children. Second, those problems which have their roots in history and which affect women's lives at present throughout the world, and they exist in our society as well. Third, those special problems which exist in different societies and could be intensified under certain conditions. One of the most important contemporary problems is the clash between tradition and modernity, and its impact upon women which creates confusion and uncertainty in performing certain duties and responsibilities. We have a number of traditional responsibilities, and number of problems which are the result of a modern way of life. I believe that for women it is always a challenge to find a balance and a point of contact between traditional duties and participating in social activities. Sometime women, due to their traditional responsibilities, are deprived of performing their social functions, and their function as mothers takes precedence over all their social roles. Let me give you a simple personal example. One day before Now Ruz [Iranian New Year] this year my little child was ill. My husband who always shares my responsibilities with me had left home at six o'clock. My mother who always helps me in all my difficulties was also ill. I also had a lecture to give at nine o'clock in the morning, and at eight o'clock I did not know what I could do with my child. I thought to myself: Whether my inheritance is half that of a man or not, whether my testimony counts as half the testimony of a man or not, and many other problems which are regarded as women's problems in our society, at this moment in view of my motherly love and sentiments, what should I do with this child? The problem is not always due to legal inequalities or lack of access to positions of power and decision-making. On many occasions women have been in positions of political power, but they have not done anything for other women. I do not know whether we can direct our discussion to more tangible things, or whether we should move forward within a scientific framework. There are certain tangible problems which cannot be contained within scientific frameworks. However, as a whole, in order to discuss other problems we must first reach some agreement on this issue that women's problems are both economic, and political, and legal and cultural. Of course, in every society the priorities are different. However, I believe that we must have a comprehensive look at all these problems because they are all connected. Of course, the cultural aspects of women's problems are more extensive.

Zanan Magazine: It has become to some extent clear what views the esteemed professors hold concerning women's issues and what differences they see between the problems faced by men and women. We have also touched on the second question. Now we should concentrate more on specific problems.

Tavassoli: We should further clarify our views about the problems that we discuss, so that we can see how we view them. It is true that women have a number of legal problems. However, in my view, legal problems are overshadowed by structural problems. In a sentence, even if a few laws are passed in favor of women, nothing will be solved; because, as Ms Zanjanizadeh as a sociologist knows very well, if these problems are part of the structure and make-up of the society, they will not be solved by a circular or a law or an edict that "men should do this or that." If mental frameworks are not changed, law by itself cannot achieve very much. Let us imagine that today all the relevant laws are changed in favor of women, if you imagine that the situation of women will immediately change you are mistaken for two reasons: First, because there are many laws regarding men which are not very effective. For instance, do all men enjoy equal rights? In this Islamic society, if my rights as a university professor are violated is there any place where I can go and say my rights, my honor, and my humanity have been violated? Is there any place [authority] that can defend my rights? Of course, I am not saying that laws are useless. What I am saying is that one should see what is the effectiveness of those laws and regulations; and to what extent are they overshadowed by social relationships and political structures of this society. The second point which Ms Mosaffa rightly stressed is that men and women also play some sexual roles. We should not forget that men and women complement one another. The relationship between men and women is a very delicate relationship which contains the secret of life and survival. It is the same in all other creatures. Of course, in other creatures the issues of survival and the nature of relationships are based on instinct. Everyone performs their duties and roles. In the case of human beings, culture, intellect and imagination have disrupted [influenced] this relationships and have given rise to different forms of life in villages, cities and civilizations. In my view, the important point is what should a woman do when a clash of roles takes place. On the one hand, she has to give a lecture; and on the other hand she has a sick child on her hand. I think that a woman will choose the child. However, in today's world, for instance in the civilized American society, there are many women who say that they do not wish to have any children because they wish to perform their social role well. The ability to take these decisions will automatically influence issues concerning family and society which, on the other hand, create new problems for women. Therefore, we must look at the natural aspect of this issue as well; because, otherwise, we will regulate some social relationships, but we will completely disrupt some other relationships. In other words, they will give rise to certain questions whether natural roles should be subjugated [to social roles], and they will even deny the people the ability to take individual decisions. Young people particularly will hesitate whether they should marry or not, whether they should have children or not. If they constantly live in a cloud of uncertainty, they will suffer from psychological problems. Therefore, one should pay special attention to the relationship between men and women, and one should bring it within the framework of a proper legal and cultural order; so that no one can misuse the situation, and that there should be no domination or superiority of men over women. However, these relationships--as I mentioned before--have deep historical roots. One should look for appropriate means and tools, and in my view a correct educational system is the cornerstone of everything else. For instance, it is said that in America women are more dominant, and apparently the reason for it is that most teachers are women and boys look up to them. Therefore, in the society as a whole a situation has come about that men look up to women and are overshadowed by them. I am not saying that it is one hundred percent like that; but in America certain conditions have been brought about as the result of which women have to some extent have liberated themselves from male domination. Instead, different ideas have come to the fore and feminism has been established as a current of thought and a movement that has caused some disruption in family relationships and has produced many new forms of families. In any case, we have certain religious guidelines, certain cultural guidelines and our own historical background. We also wish to shun some of the experiences of others which have been harmful. In my view, we can stress the exalted position which family has in our society and the relationship between man and wife. We can stress the profound value which is attached to the position of mothers and wives. At the same time, we should draw up healthy and correct educational programs in order to change people's outlook. In my view, if the issues of citizenship are properly solved in our society; in other words, if the political, economic, social, professional and legal status of all the members of the society are properly defined and implemented, then women will also find it easier to achieve their proper position everywhere, in elections, in councils, in societies, and in organizations.

Zanan Magazine: With these latest remarks, Dr. Tavassoli is in fact raising two issues: The first one is that the society as a whole is faced with a general problem and, if that problem is solved, women's problems will also be solved as a consequence of that; namely, the creation of a new civil society in which citizenship is the basis of relationships between individuals. The granting of the rights of the citizens will also result in solving the problems of women. The second point is that in the mutual interactions between society and law, he stresses the importance and the priority of society and structural elements. Dr. Zanjanizadeh, you also referred to both legal and cultural issues. Do you regard both of them to be of the same importance, or do you also give priority to cultural elements?

Zanjanizadeh: It is quite natural that when one has to play different roles in society, at times, there will be clashes of interests and contradictions between these different roles. It is natural that I who am very much in favor of the social role of women, under certain critical conditions give priority to the family life as opposed to work. For me the upbringing of my child is also very important. I cannot tell my child to wait because I have more pressing problems. It is natural that there will be some clashes of interests; because as a mother I wish to provide the best for my child and ,at the same time, I wish to be successful in my social role. But Dr. Tavassoli, when you put so much stress on the importance of motherhood and the role of mothers, I wish to ask what would a father do if he was faced with a similar situation? When you stress the role of motherhood to such an extent, are you not ignoring the role of men in the upbringing of their children? As to your comparison between human and animal societies, the reactions of the animals are based on instinct. However, even despite the importance of instinct in animals, we see that if a kitten has no contact with its mother the instinctive behavior will not be formed. So, first of all, even in the animal kingdom instinct is not absolute. Second, we believe in a difference between human and animal kingdoms. We are not born human, we become human [by social conditionaing]. Therefore, our behavior is not completely based on instincts. In my view, exaggerating the importance of the role of motherhood is an excuse to deprive women from many [social] roles. Even to perform their maternal role properly, they require a minimum of education and training. If family life is supposed to be based on the agreement and cooperation of both husband and wife, both of them should share in all the roles. At times, fathers see so little of their children that we have to introduce them to their children and tell them this is your father. The father says I am the breadwinner, I go to work in order to provide for my children; but being a father is not limited to being the breadwinner. The father's attitude, the father's behavior, the father's discipline, and the most important of all, the father's love is essential for the children. Apart from the biological relationship, have you ever thought why all of us like our mothers more [than the fathers]? It is because we have had greater contact with our mother and have felt her love more. What would be wrong if we do not separate the roles in this way -- that one does the housework and the other performs the tasks outside the house? We are living in a world which is constantly increasing our lack of balance. Why should we limit each person to only one function, so that the lack of that person would lead to crisis? If the mother goes the whole family system collapses. If the father goes, the whole economic structure of the family collapses. However, if we make these distinctions a little less rigid, so that as soon as there is the lack of one, the entire structure of the family does not collapse, that would be more in the interest of the family and the children. Therefore, first, yes the function of motherhood is very important; but the function of fatherhood is also equally important. Second, it is necessary for our women to develop themselves in all dimensions. In order to do so, they should get out of the house so that they can become familiar with the outside world; because even in order to perform their duties of motherhood, cooking and being a good wife, they should benefit from modern sciences. This greater merging of the roles is also a necessity in families.

Mosaffa: As far as my remarks were concerned, in no way did I intend to say that a woman should be limited to her role as a mother, or that the importance of that role should be exaggerated. I only wished to raise the question as to what are the margins between these roles and how we should act in different situations. I agree with you that most women who are working at the moment, are truly making great sacrifices. Unfortunately, this role is not properly reflected in our mass media. We are never shown the women who go to work at six o'clock in the morning, while carrying their children in their arms. I remember that once I was talking to a woman who is in charge of taking care of a family of nine. I asked her: Mahbubeh, have you ever thought of your problems? She said: No, if I think of those things my children will go hungry. Many women, especially in the contemporary world, may never marry; or they may marry but have no children. We cannot define all women only in their roles as mothers. The problems which different groups of women are facing are different. We should realize that when we are talking about women's rights, we are not talking about a group of educated women living in cities. We should also remember the vast number of rural and tribal women as well, because their priorities are different from those of urban women. In the same way that a rural woman is different from an urban women, a woman employee is also different from a housewife. Even those women who have different types of employment and professions have different duties and responsibilities. A woman who performs a social function [who is in employment] and is not imprisoned within the four walls of her house can think better, can compare, can see other people's condition of life, and will not always live within her own limited wishes and aspirations. I did say that one of our problems is that so long as men are not trained to see that they have a role to play at home, we will be forced to put up with our problems. We women should train our children in such a way that they will have a social consciousness, with the aim that boys will make better fathers in the future, will be better husbands in the future. However, so long as we have not reached that point, so long as the majority of the people in society see those roles to be limited to women, so long as fathers have not been trained to that level, I think that these problems will exist. We should try to find solutions for these problems. For instance, maybe a better social security system can solve some of the problems of the mothers.

Tavassoli: Under the present social conditions, we cannot truly enter certain domains which are completely alien to our society. I think we can discuss the issue in this manner, that undoubtedly there are certain roles which naturally belong to women. For instance, giving birth, nurturing the children, taking care of the children. We should even accept that there are certain female emotions, sentiments and affections. However, what are the roles of men in the house? To what extent should a man participate in household chores? If man has an economic role, to what extent should the woman have an economic role as well? Do both of them participate in this economic role or not? Should each of them partake in household duties according to what he/she can contribute? In industrialized societies, the children--whether boys or girls-- when they reach 18 they should participate in life. Each of them should contribute his or her share. However, in our society the role of the man is to be the breadwinner. We have not reached a point to say that the role of a woman is also as the breadwinner, except in families which do not have a male guardian, and that is a different matter. Now, if we can exchange these roles in a balanced way our problem will be solved. Men will have more time to spend at home with their children; and women will also have the opportunity to play a bigger role outside the house and provide some of the economic needs of the family. As the result, gradually, we will bring about a new balance. In our traditional societies--in villages and among the tribes--this balance has been created in a natural way. In the villages, women do some of the work and men also can have more rest. In fact, they cannot satisfy the economic needs of their families without the help of their wives. The same situation more or less is true about women workers. In other words, women will go and work outside their homes only when they have economic needs and when a woman wishes to help her husband financially. However, unfortunately, these different roles, inside the home and outside it, have not been properly defined and it is not clear what the roles of men and women are. This is why we see among some social classes, for instance the middle classes, that women go to work but they do not perform a very important economic role [in family finances]. For this reason, they are sometimes exploited. A woman goes and works somewhere, but as her financial needs are satisfied elsewhere [by her husband] she is not given a good salary. I believe that this kind of employment is both to the detriment of the woman herself, as well as to the detriment of her family. A woman who works should provide for at least half of the family budget. Even here the role of women in society is being misused. In her family life, she is tired and bad tempered, and she is not performing a major role in providing for the financial needs of the family either. How should we define the extent of the roles of women at home and at work and the extent of men's role at home and in economic fields?

Zanjanizadeh: If we define work as a definite employment with an appropriate salary, then all our rural women are idle, unemployed housewives. However, if we define work as any activity which necessarily is not accompanied with a tangible income but in a way helps with the family finances, then all our women are engaged in work one way or another. You are right when you say that rural women participate in all the rural activities; but at the time of the division of benefits the woman does not receive anything. The same system which has bestowed superiority upon man, has resulted in women working but men receiving the money. Therefore, even there the labor of women is regarded as a luxury and as something quite marginal. Now, the market economy has revealed the difference between the work which is done at home and that which is performed outside. Naturally, even now when the women have left their homes, still we notice that their work is either secondary, or in the private sector the employer pays different rates [to men and women]. Therefore, from your remarks I conclude that the traditional method of division of labor has been very useful, and it is better for women to stay at home and continue doing their household chores; while men should continue with their economic activities.

Tavassoli: I am not saying that the present situation is ideal. We are passing through a distorted situation which is neither ideal for women, nor for men, and nor for the family. We are also faced with a number of cultural problems. In our society, a man's income should be a little more than that of his wife in order for him to feel that he is the pillar of the family. As soon as the wife's income becomes more than that of her husband, it leads to problems. The same is true about her education. The so-called prestige which is achieved by the woman who is more highly educated than her husband, will disrupt the relationship. After all, according to our culture, it is the husband who should manage the family; and if the wife's income is a little more than his she will not submit to him. Therefore, her income should be less than that of her husband. What situations will arise under these conditions? One situation is that in some cases, even when a woman is working, so long as the husband is present the wife cannot run the economic life of the family. In our society this tradition still does not exist. I am not saying whether it is right or wrong. What I wish to say is that women's effectiveness should be guided toward a direction that they can demonstrate their capability both in economic fields, as well as in their economic role in the family. As a result, the role of the man will gradually diminish. In other words, it will reach its proper level. Otherwise, the present unfavorable situation will continue. Is man the only breadwinner of the family? When both the man and the woman work, are both of them jointly the breadwinners of the family? When both of them are the breadwinners, should their roles in the family change? And many other such discussions. I am in no way in favor of women performing their traditional role. I say it openly that women should also participate in society. They should have a logical and correct relationship at a high level with their husbands and with other women, at intellectual, social, and political levels. Women should develop so that the whole of the society may develop; and the development of women is connected with such activities. But, sometimes, we are talking about our hopes and aspirations, and at other times we are talking about present realities and the existing situation. How far can we remove ourselves from existing realities and say things which have no reality in the outside world? If you look at the discussions and debates which are broadcast on radio and television, you will see that most of the problems between men and women are due to the clash of the roles; and this is why we are faced with the present unfavorable situation. There are certain hopes and aspirations, but the society as a whole has not yet institutionalized them.

Zanjanizadeh: It is natural that when we allowed women to go and achieve high levels of education, after achieving their expertise those women would demand employment. Consequently, the traditional division of labor in the house goes under a question mark; because if the woman is to make proper use of her expertise she has to work outside the house. What I want to say is that we agree with the role of women as mothers, as housewives; but why do we keep saying that it [change in the status of women] will lead to a crisis in the family? What is our definition of a crisis? A crisis would arise when if a change is not made in the structure of the system that system would collapse. Our traditional families have been transformed. We encourage our daughters to go to higher education. Then we see that we are faced with a multiplicity and a clash of roles. I believe the time has come for us to make a fundamental review of the division of labor at home. Otherwise, our new woman would be a wasted woman. We have reached a point of transition. We believe that I as a woman should perform all my traditional roles well. At the same time, as the result of the opportunities which I have been given--in education and employment-- I am expected to perform my social tasks well too. But if a woman wishes to perform all these functions as well as possible, she would be crushed. Sometimes, I feel that we wish to get rid of women as soon as possible. They should work eight hours at work, and eight hours at home. That is 16 hours a day. They are supposed to have 50 years of useful life, but that will be cut to 25 years. It is clear that when a woman goes outside the home and earns an income, we cannot treat her in any way we like. Therefore, this will lead to a clash. This clash will lead to certain tensions; and we feel that a unit [family] which enjoyed balance and harmony has now been changed to a source of tension and contradiction. However, this unit wishes to move toward some kind of a balance. We are not saying that because there is tension, one should sue for divorce. However, the time has come that in our education and in our social training we do not adhere to our traditional patterns of division of labor. We wish that something which is very important, namely the family and society, is preserved. All this does not mean that women wish to get divorced and leave their homes. We are not intent on having a quarrel. The aim is to preserve this unit based on agreement and love. Now that we are faced with this situation, we should realize that we cannot have the former expectations of women. It is right that we make a new definition of the division of labor. I believe a man who looks after his child will appreciate how difficult it is to rear children. This may also have an influence in population control. It will also influence the emotional bonds between the children and their fathers. Don't think that only a group of intellectual women are saying these things. When I see that one of my male university students comes to me and says: "Excuse me for being late. My wife was on a night shift and I was forced to take care of our child until she came back from work," I realize that these changes have taken place in reality. This is not something which I am saying [that it should be done]. The needs of an urban, industrialized life has produced this division of labr. What we are saying is why should we allow this process to advance so slowly and gradually at the cost of wasting the youth and the lives of so many women? When we can become aware of this problem and can think of a solution, we can prevent their negative consequences.

Tavassoli: I just wanted to add that a part of our discussion touches on the economic and social structure of our society. If there were sufficient real jobs in our society and if there was need and desire, then all these problems would be solved easily and in time. But there are many problems in our society. It is true that they tell you to go and study; but there is neither sufficient occupation for men, nor for women. As far as the issue of social status is concerned, what you have said is absolutely true; but a society where 40 percent of its women work is different from our society where only a small percentage of women work. For most of our women, the men are the breadwinners. What we should discuss is how we can gradually attract that group of women who are not working at the moment to move toward useful economic occupations; so that they can play a role both in our economic development as well as bringing about changes in the relations between men and women in a natural and gradual way.

Mosaffa: It seems that we are all agreed that there should be changes in the current situation. The debate is about the amount of change. I think that these changes should not be brought about in such a way that they will disrupt the structure of the families and, consequently, the structure of the society. At the same time, the pace of change should not be so slow that it will only affect our grandchildren and the generation after them. In any case, we should bear in mind the speed of change in the twentieth century. I believe that in the future women will turn more toward the labor market, but at the moment there is no relationship between expectations and possibilities. You know that one of the elements which leads to dissatisfaction in society is this big gap between expectations and possibilities; which in some cases will lead to civil violence. I believe, however, that it is important to know what price we are paying for these changes. How much tension can a family put up with? Sometime some ladies come to me for consultation and say that raising the issue of women's rights in a speedy and premature way has led to instability. Sometimes I ask myself when the possibility for the implementation of many expectations are not yet available, is it worth creating tension in the families? What should be the limit of change? What is the price we are prepared to pay for it? How many facilities should we create for the realization of the rights of women in society? Personally, I believe that cross-generational education is very important. One cannot change a 40 or 50 year old man. As the role of women in the training of their children is very important, the women themselves have the greatest responsibility [for training their children to accept the changes]. Sometimes the mothers themselves, whether knowingly or unknowingly, have contributed to the differences [between men and women]. If they wish to see changes, they should play their role. Perhaps if changes take place in other aspects of the society and if there is greater support for families by the society, the economic role of men will gradually diminish. Mothers should also treat their children equally. Therefore, without bringing about changes in outlook, without changing men's thinking, we will not be able to introduce rapid changes in the society. Again, in many of my contacts with women, I have noticed that when women wish to marry, they again think very much in a traditional way. For instance, they expect the man to pay the expenses of the wedding, but then they expect to have a modern lifestyle. Well, the two things do not go together. The first foundation stone that you lay will influence what you build on it later. I also meet many educated mothers who are sitting at home due to the lack of social facilities for taking care of their children [nurseries], or due to family problems, the disagreement of their husband, or the lack of adequate facilities for them to work from home. Many of them have a high level of expertise. Therefore, in my view, one should bring about a balanced and harmonious relationship, but what is the meaning of balance? To what extent can our society tolerate these changes? In which areas can these changes be introduced more easily? I believe that improving the level of public understanding is the least difficult and the least costly thing we can do.

Zanan Magazine: Let us raise the final question. The dear professors have referred to various problems. Now we wish to see what these problems stem from and what factors should we stress more.

Zanjanizadeh: At the beginning of my remarks I said that women's problems are rooted in our social structure. If we look at that general structure, or in other words in the institutional structure of our society, we see that we can divide these problems into four sub-systems: Cultural, legal, political, and economic. These are the most important elements which can create complications in the lives of women. These elements are inter-related. For instance, when we speak about the role of women at the highest level of decision-making, in addition to having taken a step toward the political participation of women, we have also challenged the cliches which exist about women. At times, it is imagined that these moves are purely for show; but in reality one can fight against those cultural and social cliches and stereotypes which have been constructed in the course of many centuries. Therefore, these four elements are not separate from each other. At the moment, one set of problems faced by women are legal problems. However, these legal issues have not come out of nothing. Positive or negative cliches can influence that outlook. Therefore, the active participation of women in economy or in politics can influence these cliches which are mental concepts based on distorted facts. When we keep returning to the feminine culture, it may be interpreted as though they are the responsible party. [It may be imagined that] If women educate their children properly and do not distinguish between them all their problems will be solved. Well, it is always very easy to condemn the weakest party. We cannot say that first we should go and correct our culture, and later turn to political, economic and legal problems faced by women. I believe that at this juncture we can do two things: One, in the short term; and the other in the long term. In the short term, by changing the law, by appointing women to the highest levels of decision making, creating job security and establishing security at home. I believe that the presence of women in all the highest levels of decision making is very useful, because in the best possible outcome men will forget them [the presence of women becomes ordinary]. You may say that the presence of one woman [at a high level of responsibility] will not solve anything. However, I believe that even this one presence will create cracks in the traditional cliche that women are weak and dependent. In the long term, one should try to change the perception of men concerning women which has been formulated in the course of many centuries, with correct education based on balance and not complete separation [of the roles of men and women] and through changing social beliefs and getting rid of cliches. I particularly believe that, through education and training, through doing away with incorrect cliches, through demonstrating successful examples and through the gatherings and associations of women themselves which are the most important factors, we should try to change the character of the housewives. History has shown that only those who can make a difference are the women themselves. I do not mean to create clashes between men and women. We are trying to create families which can bring up the best children and can help to bring about a balance in the society.

Mosaffa: It seems we have agreed that the most important roots of women's problems are cultural issues. If we wish to look at the issue from an international point of view, we see that for the past 50 years there has been an international sensitivity about human rights, and since the 1960s about the issue of women's rights. However, this sensitivity has not yet produced an acceptable level of success. May be the issues have been well defined through international means. However, in view of cultural, economic, social and political structures of various societies, these international standards have not proved very successful. Sometimes, they say that these international standards are purely a battle of papers [as published]. Therefore, I believe that as Dr. Zanjanizadeh has said, we should stress cultural problems more; because even in some countries where there are no legal distinctions between the rights of men and women, still the level of women's participation is very low. Another question which I have is whether those women who have achieved high political power in the world have been very useful in solving women's problems. For instance, in England Mrs Thatcher believed that just because she was a woman she did not have to make special efforts toward solving women's problems. Sometimes, the policies which she pursued, such as increasing the taxes, put greater pressure upon women. Or did Ms Bhutto solve the problems of Pakistani women better than others? At the moment, the highest level of female illiteracy is in Pakistan. To what extent do women who achieve political power increase the sensitivity toward women's issues and help solve their problems. I believe that again the root cause of these problems is in the cultural fields which have been constantly strengthened through legal, political and social measures. Each of these factors has also strengthened the other factors.

Tavassoli: I believe that the roots of these problems are in our traditions which we have inherited from the past. Perhaps if these traditions had remained the same as they were before they would not have caused any problems. However, the clash between modernism and traditions has intensified these problems and has created an unfavourable situation. Therefore, as long as we are not able to create a balance between these two, the problems faced by women will not be solved. In a society which has not yet achieved a proper political and economic equilibrium, this imbalance will continue to exist. I believe that the other root of the problem is in under- development. If our society can move toward political, economic and social development many of these problems will be solved by themselves. Under such conditions, women will also be able to defend their rights. #

Related links

* A new generation? -- A paper on Iranian women's issues by Prof. Afary
* Being a woman in Iran -- An interview with Prof. Nafici
* Agents of change -- How independent-minded Iranian journals promote reform. By Judith Miller
* ZAN -- Iranian women's homepage

Short biographies of the three participants in the roundtable next to their photographs

* Homa Zanjanizadeh, born in Mashhad. She received her doctorate in 1353 [1974] from Sorbonne in Paris and since Ordibehesht 1354 [month starting 22 April 1975] she has been teaching at Ferdowsi Uuniversity in Mashhad. "Social Reactions," "Methods of Research in Social Sciences," and "Women's Social Movements" are some of the books she has translated. Two of her books on "Social Organizations" and "Sociology of Education and Training" are ready for publication. Many of Ms Zanjanizadeh's articles have been published in specialist and non-specialist publications, including "Zanan". (Back to text)

* Gholam-'Abbas Tavassoli, born in Torbat-Heydariyeh in 1314 [1935]. He received his doctorate in sociology from Sorbonne in 1966. He has taught in various universities since 1345 [1966]. At the moment he is professor of sociology in the Faculty of Social Sciences at the University of Tehran and is the chairman of the Iranian Sociological Society. He has published numerous books including: "Ten Essays on the Philosophy of History," "The Sociology of Religion," "Sociological Theories," "Urban Sociology," "The Sociology of Work and Professions" ...He has also translated a number of books and has published a large number of articles in various magazines, such as Kiyan, Rahyaft, Educational Keyhan. (Back to text)

* Nasrin Mosaffa, born in 1333 [1954] in Tehran. She received her doctorate in political science from the University of Tehran. Since 1367 [1988] she has been a member of the academic staff in the Faculty of Law and Political Science at the University of Tehran. She has also received a higher certificate in Women's Rights and another certificate in Peace Studies and Development from Austria. So far, the following books have been published by her: "The Concept of Aggression in International Law," "The Iraqi Aggression against Iran and the Stance of the United Nations," and "The Political Participation of Women." For one term she was the guest editor of the "Foreign Affairs" quarterly (special edition on women). (Back to text)