Misc

This guy...

... was still wetting his bed at the age of 30. A friend tells him to go see a therapist, maybe he'll be able to stop. He agrees.
So the friend runs into him after a while and asks whether he has stopped wetting his bed at night, to which he answers, "no, but now I'm proud of it!"

It's the story of the people of Iran and their revolution...

Parham

There was no personal attack nor the intent. 

But I do think we should end the debate as we're drifting towards a deadend.  You won't be convinced of the Khatami silent revolution, and I won't be convinced that Iranians should stand on the sidelines and let Ahmadinejad and the future Ahmadinejads rule over Iran.

All the best and enjoy the next few days and the massive turnout (by Iranians) for this very crucial election that will determine the fate of Iran.  I don't mean to marginalize, I think it is self-inflicted. 

Big Boy

I will not allow you any mud-slinging towards my person. If you want to debate, debate. Anything else will be considered scum talk to me and will make me end the debate.

I expect you to apologize for the "freedom fighter" comment. You don't know anything about me, so you have no right to pass any judgment like that. Even if you did, you wouldn't have the right to do so.

I leave DK to reply to his part on his own if he wishes to do so.

That said, once again, Khatami himself has said many times that he's part of the establishment and the establishment ("nezam") comes first, before anything. Refer to his last (and famous) speech at the University of Tehran.

I expect this conversation closed and will not reply to anymore of your comments unless you apologize for your personal attack.

Parham

That is exactly how you challenge the establishment.  He did it!  The establishment fought back...as expected.  But he set Iran on a new trajectory by bringing about more opennes.  This is how change begins.  The weekend freedom fighters such youself and Kadivar slept through it.

I also wish you a very very very long life to watch how Iran evolves...while you stand on the sidelines.

Big Boy

That's not a reform. A reform is a set of laws complete with actions that set a certain path.

What good if one talks and the opposite happens at every stop -- freedom of press, opened newspapers based on the promise of those freedoms closed -- freedom of speech, those who talk emprisonned/arrested/tortured/killed -- etc.

Blind yourself.

Parham

If you think people "got", then they "got" under all previous presidents and also under Ahmadinejad.  In your exuberance to undermine anything good anyone does in this regime, you are inevitably blind to everything that has gone on over the years including Khatami's accomplishments.

I was very explcit in mentioning that Khatami changed (reformed) the entire landscape of Iranian politics...the blind do not see it. 

Big Boy

Absolutely not! Khatami didn't give. People got.

Name one reform.

And boy am I getting tired of saying that and getting no response! :)

Parham

Wrong!  Khatami changed the trajectory of Iranian politics.  It was so subtle yet so transformative, and that was his brilliance!  Khatami made the Iranian people get some of their confidence back.  That it was okay to criticise and ask questions.  So, Khatami not only delivered, he changed the landscape of iranian politics, without people even realizing it.  You sure didn't. 

As for what comes after, well nobody knows, but most people are hopeful for a better future and a few (you and Kadivar) remain cynical and hopeless...with all due respect.   

Big Boy

I'm looking at the evidence that Khatami didn't deliver even one reform and at the fact that Hitler got elected by overwhelming popular "rock the vote" active vote, that's what I am looking at!

Furthermore, if you look at it, it's the voting that's the passive choice here. I don't think any of these dambal-dimbol green and ghaveyi rah-rah voters will do anything after the vote even if their "reformist" candidate stabs them upfront.
The truth is, if you vote or don't, if you really believe in your "democratic" goal, you should go on fighting. I think most of y'all won't.

Parham

Yes, I could be wrong.  We could all be wrong about everything all the time.  But, I am hopeful.  You know, hope for a better future sustains us all.  If not for hope, why even live?  So, Do nothing and surrneder Iran to the madman, or ROCK THE VOTE and expect change.  In the meantime, sit back and enjoy the ride.  As for historical evidenc, not sure what "evidence" you're looking at, but it tells me the opposite.

Big Boy

Tell yourself you could be wrong and there is also a big chance the establishment will not turn into a democracy. In fact, all historic evidence points to this.

Laugh away!

It's not about IRI, it's about the Iranian people.  Maybe you understand, maybe you don't.  Unlike you I see the country and the people, not the establishmnent.  The people of Iran are not IRI, just as Iran is not Reza Pahlavi.  But you don't get it, so no point arguing.  I do wish you another 100 years of life, just so you can out live R.P.  Iran has moved on, the establishment will evolve, it will mature, it will open up and eventually you too will realize this...as has the Obama administration.  In the meantime, ROCK THE VOTE!

Big Boy ;0)

I'm Not Angry, I am laughing my head off at your comments.

Your IRI friends took away any dignity our countrymen and women had !

Your WAR SCARE Schemes to encourage them to endorse the MOST CORRUPT AND WRETCHED Regime we ever had Don't Work Anymore With Obama President. So Spare me Your AIPAC Accusations.

You Guys NEVER Budged when Ahamadinejad Held Neo Nazi Conference in Tehran and hailed Ahmadinejad as YOUR NEW MOSSADEGH !

Now All of the Sudden your friends  discover that the HOLOCAUST REVISIONISM IS SHOCKING ? LOL

Everything is Good For You to try and save this Regime from falling apart.

You Will have Your vote, people will Vote in Masses and Your Good Ol' Moussavi will be President.

Let's See if he DELIVERS like you say.

I PITY YOU AND YOUR BOLD STANCE UNDER AN "ANONYMOUS"  NAME !

Keep Them Coming !

But Regime Change is IRREVERSIBLE ! It will come because of the very nature of the Regime ! Just like Communism where even Gorbatchev could not save it from crumbling. It will take time But it will come !

And Unlike Me and my Royalist Dreams. YOU my friend I guarantee you Will  Live to see Your loveable IRI Crumble into the Dustbins of History !

Woah!

It didn't take long for Kadivar to lose his mind.  The rage and anger he feels for being irrelavent to Iran finally came through.  So, according to you any Iranian who cares for his country is a Palestinian, or is Hamas?  What a pathetic and petty little man you have become.  I won't reciprocate by suggesting you are at the service of AIPAC and Likud becuase I know what you say is only from the rage anger you feel knowing that you will never ever see Iran return to the has-been monarch.  I sympathise with you, but more so I pitty you for what you have become.  An angry irrelevant Iranian.

God bless the Iranian people, who despite all the hardships, have fought to mainatine their dignity and identity...that does not include you Kadivar, and all the Kadivars whose numbers are dwindling every day. 

Big Boy I am Afraid Your Passport Ain't Valid Anymore ;0)

ITS BEEN INVALID FOR 30 YEARS NOW !

You see that BLACK FORK is an ARAB Word "ALLAH" Not a Persian Word or GOD for that Matter.

But I guess You can exchange it with the Palestinian Passport. Its waiting for you at the closest HAMAS based Embassy Near You.

But No need to worry, We Will take the Crown of Jamshid Back sooner or later from You Arab Lovers ...

LOL

Thanks, but no.

DK, thanks but no.  My Iranian passport will suffice.  I really do wish you a long long long life so that you can watch from the sidelines as Iran evolves and moves forward.  30 years down, another 20 years to go before they match the number of years of the brutal dictator Pahlavi (not the father, he was noble, but the son who was an insecure petty inferior dictator who got what he deserved). 

Big Boy would You Care for a Venezuelan Passport ? ;0)

I Grant You the VOTE . Take Mine. Enjoy it while it lasts.

I am Sure Your Friend CHAVEZ can Grant You a Venezuelen Passport since he is a Good Friend of the IRI.

Your REPUBLIC IS DOOMED by History as THE WORST DYNASTY IN 25 CENTURIES !

I have applied for the Spanish Passport. You see Its More Stable :

Back to the Future?

Well, the day the French Monarchy is restored (don't hold your breath DK), the Pahlavis will also come back...in case you're wondering, that means NEVER!

ROCK THE VOTE, the future depends on it.

Guards, Squires Knights Its Time to Slain The IRI Dragon ! ;0)

Forget Googoosh, Mahasty's Spirit Will Guide Us and Haunt Her From the Grave. LOL

Time to Slain The IRI Dragon While its On Its Knees ...

Time to OVERTHROW THE ZAHAK KHAMENEI and Put Back the Legitimate King Back on the Peacock Throne where he belongs :

VIVE LE ROI

Just Kidding,

HEE HEE !

Big Boy IS Panicking ;0)

Already ... LOL

Do what YOU think is best

I'll vote and nothing anyone says is gonna change my mind. It's OUR country, our elections (pathetic as it may be at the moment). He who doesn't want to vote has effectively ruled himself out and therefore HAS NO SAY IN THE MATTER.

Rock the Vote

The future of Iran depends on it.

Folani dar Amrika How Many Questions in Your Question ?

Clearly you do not understand the difference between a Constitutional Monarchy and an Absolute Monarchy. Do Your Homework First and then we can debate ..

But to answer your question or questions: 

I was Not Old enough to Vote or Boycott at the time. How about you ?

But Were I old enough however I suppose that my participation or not to the elections would probably depend on their stake in terms of the social or economic consenquences for the country. If the elections had a Political consenquence for instance asking the people to endorse more powers to government or the King, I guess I would boycott the elections like most members or sympathizers of the banned Iranian National Front  would do. But even the Nationalists believed in the Iranian Constitution, they did not like the fact that this Constitution was not respected by the Shah.

So Your FALSE Claim that Iran was a Constitutional Monarchy (as we understand it in Europe and in all Democratic Monarchies) Proves that you have No Idea of What you are talking about ... 

If by Monarchists you mean Die Hard Shahollahis a term which I consider as reductive and invented by Anti Monarchists in general without the slightest idea of what they are talking about, then I would say I do not feel I identify myself to this definition and even less to YOUR definition of what is a Constitutionalist.

As such I do not see ANY Contradiction in Monarchists (as I understand the definition in its Constitutional form) asking for Free Elections. Before the Creation of the Unique Party System the Rastakhiz, Political life in Iran was Bi-Polar and elections had a meaning and an effect on the policies coducted in the country. They may not have been perfect but they did include civil participation and debate in Parliament. You were Not arrested as a deputy if you disagreed with the laws submitted. One could criticize the government including during the Hoveyda years through magazines like TOFIGH and they could often be harsh criticisms and cartoons against the government but the journalists were not arrested or tortured for that matter. But you could not criticize  or ridicule the King or Royal family.

Also unlike his father Reza Shah Kabir, Mohamed Reza Shah DID  Rule for 12 years as a typical European Constitutional Monarch. The affairs of the State were in the hands of the Prime Minister, which he named but was elected by the Parliament. Things changed after 1953 as we all know . But to claim that Iran was a Constitutional Monarchy like in Europe and that Mossadegh was a DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED government which was overthrown is something that you people should try and explain to me for It proves once again that you have no idea of the type of government Iran was at the time. We never had a democratic tradition. We had a Parlimentary tradition that had to be enforced but the political establishment at the time including Dr. Mossadegh failed to understand that they were Demanding something that was pre mature and proved that he was quite shortsighted in overestimating his own Importance and strength. His struggle also confused two issues: Nationalism and Democratic demands.

Nationalism was about nationalizing our resources NOT about Political Liberties ...

In fact Mossadegh Respected the Royal Institution.

La Preuve :

//iranian.com/main/blog/darius-kadivar/pictory-mossadegh-gentleman-1950s

So in many ways his political struggle which was against ESTESMAREH ENGELEESE etc was like an Anti Colonialist struggle against foreign Powers. That had nothing to do with democracy or Constitutional Reforms which were necessary to define a seperation of Powers necessary to all democratic states.

Instead Mossadegh turned HIS OWN Legitimate King into an Enemy. He expelled the Royal Family and dissolved the very Elected Parliament to impose his power. That was presumptuous and a particularly clumsy move that gave the pretext to overthrow him. Particularly in a Country like ours where the King was always regarded as divine in the people's mindset since the times of Cyrus the Great and under different dynasties.

Accusing your own King of Treason was a step too far in a society like Iran in those days. Strange that the intelligent Lawyer he was did not realize this simple fact that he may have become a national celebrity by appearing as the father of Iranian Oil Nationalization, but he Was NOT the King who by definition in an Absolute Monarchy embodies the State and represents People.  

Did I answer your question or you still think that constitutional monarchists want to Restore an Absolute Monarch on the Peacock Throne ? ...

Best,

DK

Mr Kadivar: You didn't answer my question

Since you didn't answer my question, I will simply copy and paste my last remarks:

"I'm curious if you voted in Iran's free Majles elections when Shahanshah Aryamehr Mohammad Reza Pahlavi led our "constitutional monarchy"? Or did you support a boycott then, out of principle? Which of the positions in the Pahlavi regime were even chosen through popular vote? Since Iran already WAS a "constitutional monarchy" during the Aryamehr's reign, is it fair to say that you wish to see a restoration of that "constitutional monarchy" under Reza Shah-e Kabir? Do you find it ironic that Iranian monarchists are voicing support for "free elections"? (Do you even see the irony of that?) Why did more monarchists not call for free elections when their man was in power?"

Thank you

THE EXPAT NON-VOTE IS TREASON TO IRANIANS IN IRAN

Its all very easy for Iranians NOT LIVING IN IRAN to shrug off voting as "against their principles" for whatever reason.

That's because you are so OUT of the BAGH that you have NO IDEA of the day-to-day reality of living under a hardliner like Ahmadinejad.

You will help him get reelected with your lofty silence, claiming to do so out of respect for some ideal of Iran that is nowhere near the reality, and we Iranians actually living here are the ones who pay the price. Whereas the expat votes could help get a Reformist in office and improve our lives vastly here.

Thanks, expatriates!

No Need to Vote Now Anymore ... ;0)

Bye Bye Mahmoud

Iran's supreme leader blasts Ahmadinejad for corruption claims

Answer to Folani dar Amrika ;0)

The Shah of Iran was an Absolute Monarch and the Regime was NOT a Constitutional Monarchy in its true definition of the Word since he Ruled and Did Not simply Reign. The Country however DID have A Constitution but the King Overlooked it. THAT was Un Contitutional.

What Else do you want to Know ?

Now Just to ask you a Question Folani Dar Amrika:

As you know Many South American Secular Republics were run by dictators: Pinochet, Peron etc.

Does THAT make the notion of a Republic illegitimate in your eyes for that matter ?

What Makes you think that Republic Systems are More Compatible with a Democracy than Constitutional Monarchies for that matter ?

The Folani From Europe Will claim the Contrary since we equally have Monarchies ( Spain, UK, Netherlands, Sweden, Norway) and Republics ( France, Germany, Austria, Italy) which are equally democratic.

All countries do not evolve towards a democratic system in the same way.

We had a Revolution in France and  a Restoration in Great Britain( after a long period of a Theocratic dictatorship just like Iran).

So I do not see what is our obsession to think that a Revolution like ours was a Success or a Triumph of democratic ideals.

Khomeiny's Tozihol Madaref will never replace Montesqieue's L'Esprit des Lois or Thomas Pain's pamphlet The Common Sense.

What in the Islamic Revolution has been a Universally acclaimed pamphlet to which other countries can look up to as a role model or blueprint towards Democratic or Humanistic values ?

I see None ! And even less in its Leaders.

But since you seem well informed I suppose you can enlighten me ...

Lastly Mossadegh himself would turn in his grave if he had seen the results of the Islamic Revolution in wanting to oust a despot only to replace it by a Tyrant.

I think he would even find more common ground with the despots son: Reza Pahlavi and wouldn't even mind seeing him restored on the Peacock Throne as a Constitutional Monarch a Real One that is.

But Even RP is not asking to be King But to see his countrymen and women Free and have the Freedom to Choose.

If you have a better Idea. I welcome your feedback. Go For it !

Best,

DKaka The Folani From Europe/France

Voting = FALSE image of democracy in Iran

Voting in this sham "election" is a massive GIFT to all the obscenely corrupt and greedy mullahs ruining our country! And all these jokers who're saying that we need to get rid of Ahmadinejad -- they're either as clueless as a bag of dirt, or they're promoting the IRI in an underhanded way.

The fabricated veneer of a "democratic" election in Iran is a HUGE bonus for the mullahs, for it diminishes the legitimate basis for international pressure against the IRI. The vision of a smiling mullah (Khatami) as an "elected" president in the Islamic Republic did very little good for Iranians, but it did A WHOLE LOT of good propaganda for the mullahs in Europe and elsewhere.

In other words, "if" the mullahs succeed at selling the idea that Iran is a "quasi-democracy" headed toward a true democracy at its own unique pace, it helps the wickid mullahs enormously in deflating international pressure!

This is why it is CRITICAL for people to not fall for this circus, this insulting sham of an "election," which is designed more to fool westerners than help Iranians!

DO NOT VOTE! Do not fall prey to the lies of yet another dark chapter of the clerical regime! Fool me once, shame on you! Fool me twice, three times and more, SHAME ON US!

Fundamentals...

When a regime is FUNDAMENTALLY a FASCIST RELIGIOUS one, it would not mater who becomes president.

Wake up and smell the crap...

Mr. Kadivar, did you vote in Iran's elections under the Aryamehr

Since you proclaim yourself a supporter of something called a "constitutional monarchy", I'm curious if you voted in Iran's free Majles elections when Shahanshah Aryamehr Mohammad Reza Pahlavi led our "constitutional monarchy"? Or did you support a boycott then, out of principle? Which of the positions in the Pahlavi regime were even chosen through popular vote? Since Iran already WAS a "constitutional monarchy" during the Aryamehr's reign, is it fair to say that you wish to see a restoration of that "constitutional monarchy" under Reza Shah-e Kabir? Do you find it ironic that Iranian monarchists are voicing support for "free elections"? (Do you even see the irony of that?) Why did more monarchists not call for free elections when their man was in power?