Misc

Why..?

and why is that, one of those crazy Arabs ( so called 12 th imam)  still trapped / hidden in a well in Cham_karan...

Ari

I am not sure if the idea of creating a secular society would necessarily require a fundamental cultural cleansing as you prescribe. As deeply entrenched a movemnet this would be, and an passionate advocate of art as we may become, Can we really replace anything in its true essence in people's psyche? You are going to have to force this lady to give it up and walk with you. I think it would be more proper if you inivte her to participate and then leave it up to her. You will never have her vote if your goal is to replace anything for her.

separation of church and state in europe has not taken the religion and its followers out of the system altogether. Do you seriously not think that religion exerts some level of dominance over people at least in certain countries, who nevertheless can be considered as secular?

KouroshS

 2. How do we convince? We create such emotionally moving art so as to overwhelm the reistance. So let's get busy giving strong support to our artists--as a political act.

3. Separation of Church and State? Possible only when monopoly of religion over mass emotions--and therefore political action--is broken. Rennaisance art and the emergence of secularism in Europe are tightly related.

4. Why was Moses pissed off at the statue? Symbolic of a jealous god that brooks no human-made object of worship ie. art.

Ari

Something "has to" replace the aesthetics of religion? whoa. Why? ?

More importantly how are you going to convince those who won't let that happen?

 I thought we were onlyshooting for taking it out of government, keeping them (government and religion) miles apart so they won't kick and bite each other and the rest will be just fine?

Moses was probaby pissed off at something else and he took it out on the golden calf... sorry. joking. I don't know. why was he?

jason

dada, you've got your history a bit mixed up.  yazedgerd's daughter reportedly married hussain (3rd shiite caliph).  reza, i believe was the 8th shiite caliph.  don't quote me on that!  but the gist of your assertion is true.  we have been at the crossroads of many civilizations and have invaded others and been conquered by others even more.  our ancestors have mixed with many other people. 

Yes this is tragic, but...

It is more tragic when we see  same things (even worse) are happening in this part of the world, which is called the: The modern world!

Don't cry on your own miseries, look around.

I bet you will see worse just around yourself, wherever you are living!

If not, just take a trip to Italy or even the South America

KouroshS

Why was Moses so pissed off about the Golden Calf?

Jason Jaan

You just put in place the first "ajor" of many Ajors to reach a truly democratic society, namely Tolerance.

Can you imagine that in a near future there will be people walking around saying this is tragic, to those who do not want to give up their ways?

HG. Good point but...

Coercion is not that much different form Force, be it more psycologically acceptable or not. In essence you are suggesting that there is the Pressure element involved more than anything else. Mage gheyr az ine?:)

Mashhad is cool. I'll visit it next time I'm there.

Everything is sacred.

All Iranians proud of their Aryan anscectry ..

    Emam Reza came to iran and married the daughter of Yazdegerd .

     Unfortunately such  intra racial bonds happened a lot with the Arabs who invaded iran . To the dismay of the racists and monarchists , We are not pure Aryans any more . Let us face it , The Arabs mixed and integrated with Iranians during the last  fourteen hundred years .

     The product is such individual you see on this tape . Ignorant folks Walking barefoot in the desert day after day , to reach ( Aghaye GHarib ) . This is tragic . This is tragic .

kourosh

i do think hajj and urging of mollahs for pilgrimmage has great implications and make it different from other religions.  but that's just my point of view.  and i never said people are "forced" to make pilgrimmage (we should be fair as not taking statements out of context).  i used the word coercion which can be subtle and psychological.  no one forces a muslim to pray five times a day.  it's considered a pillar of islam and "good" muslims adhere to it.  just like "good" muslims try to achieve pilgrimmage.  if hajj was not a pillar, i think only a fraction would do it.  this lady on the video may do it no matter what, who knows?

Emil

I believe after Imam Hossein every Imam was at least half Iranian. Because the Imams had Iranian wives.

Not too long a go

American soldiers in Iraq found groups of Iranians in a  desert dehydarated and close to death. These folks were apparently under their way to karbela and had no clue how much they had to walk, never mind walking in a dessert , crossing a border with mines left from wars there, and list goes on.
Khorafat ke shakh o dom nadareh.

It is a FACT

It is a fact that Iranians are MUCH MUCH more likely to go to the Shrine of Reza than they go to Persepolis or the tomb of Kurosh on an annual basis. Call it stupidity but that's how people are in Iran. Don’t believe me? Go to the shrine of Reza 2 am on a cold rainy ordinary day and you will barely be able to get to Rozeyeh Monavareh (Watch it live here). But go to Persepolis or the tomb of Kurosh during Nowruz Holidays and you will only find a few interested people.  What does that tell us about us and the Iranians living in Iran? Perhaps nothing...

Ari

LOL

So that was indeed the main point of the blog after all?

talk about being off the topic big time.

Anyone know?

souri jan

Loft dari aziz. Kamale ham site neshin ke shoma basheen  dar ma asar karde dige.

Hamsade khan

Both! it is really a combination effect. But let's de-emphsize the "pillar effect" a bit. You are putting way too much weight on this one point, to drive home the idea that there is more pressure involved here than will.

To me it is obvious that if in fact such an increase has been noted, and i have no doubt that such is the case, that is an indication of deeper desire something that comes from within an individual, as opposed to fulfilling a duty. Same goes for othre faiths as well.

kourosh, distinction between voluntary and cultural pressure

i apologize if i mis-interpreted your comment.  if, on relative terms, muslims make more pilgrimmages in a year than in other religions, does it mean they like their religion more or is that an effect of hajj being a pillar of islam?  i'll extend the same question to illicit a response for the same argument for other holy sites.

Dear kourosh S

I really admire your sens of logic.

You are brilliant, as always.

More power to you.

HG

why taking words out of context ? LOL

Of course haj has done that. When was the last time that you saw me denying that? My thing is that it is the way it is, based on people's own belief. and not based on force The majority of time.

kourosh

if you think that hajj, being a pillar of islam, has no effect on number of people going to the middle of desret in saudi arabia every year, then so be it.  i agree to disagree.

pers

i am in total agreement with your last post.  my friends in iran were from various religious and ethnic backgrounds which never created any issues between us.  i was referring to your comment of "islam by choice" 5-10 generations ago (your earlier comment).  i don't think that islam was accepted peacefully initially in our country, nor do i think that other alternatives of religion were given or were "cost-free" for a long term after the arab invasion.

i have no problem with people's religiosity; however, when i see exploitation, i'll call it as i see it.  i don't have a problem with this lady walking to mashhad.  but the mullahs have ingrained it in her mind and others like her to part with their money through this type of pilgrimmage.  the money that sometime these poor people spend (sometimes life savings) on a trip to be called "haji" or "mashti" is unacceptable if it's done through coercion.  if it's not mandated by their holy book or the preacher, all the power to them.  i know wher their money goes and i know what the religious leaders do with that money.  

Hamsadeh G.

A money-making enterprise or not, there are those who do not need to hear it from a mosque dude or a religious establishmentee dude, it is cool or uncool to do it.

 What you say is not logical aziz. at least in my view, That is like saying i would only recognize Orange as a fruit, if i did not have to peel the skin off of it.  There would not be any hajiing had there not been a religious called islam, which means there really was no way for you or anyone to declare whether it was done on a volunteer basis  or else.

 Haj is not and has never been mandated, even though it is a pillar! If that is your way of hitting back at the jahadist then so be it.  It has always been recommended just like namaz and rooze and etc. Do you think many of the first-generationers in our families our granparents, waited until they hear things coming from a jihadist muslim or rather it was a cultural norm in some families and was followed and adhered to based on sheer will?

KouroshS and Hamsade Ghadimi…

Kourosh jaan, Thank you for your note, that was my point:

“As has been said a million times here, why can we just leave religious people alone and respect their privacy? mage nemigim religion is a private affair and hence should be viewed as one of the fundamentals of having a secualr government?”

I’m no expert in religion or politics, but one thing I know is “tolerance brings unity”

Hamsade Ghadimi jaan,

I was not around 1400 years ago when the Arabs invaded, but we have both read that before Islam was imported to Iran religion was a private affair, all had the right and respect to worship any God they fancied!

Like many of us, I also come from a generation that grew up under the Shahs regime and I remember as a kid growing up in those times all had the right to follow their faith, we went to school and played together and no one cared about the faith and religion of the kid next to them, we all enjoyed a sense of love and unity…

What’s so wrong about treating others with the respect and tolerance that we our self’s would like to be treated with?

As I see it, we as Iranians have some major cultural handicaps, we all think we are better and know more than the fellow next to us and try our best at avoiding any type of unity, a very “yekeh taaz” type of mentality.

I see our shortcoming as:

1-      We are not a tolerant and united people:

I lived and grew up in LA for 23 years, a city with a population of some 2 million Iranians for the most part middle class, upper middle class and the wealthy! But during all this time we have never witnessed the development on any cultural establishments that would contribute to our social welfare, growth and unity as a culture, Library, schools, volunteer organizations………nothing!

2-      We have “OIL”, everyone wants a piece of our ass and when we are not united and tolerant of one another, this division creates a perfect setting for exploitation.

This is all food for thought.

With love and respect for all and in hope of better days for all Iranians and whole of humanity.

Emamzade

Even before the invasion of mind snatchers, AKA the 2nd ghadesiyeh, and the fall of reason and decency, Iran was dotted with emamzadehs.

Throughout the ages some smart business-minded people have picked up on the fact that simple minded folks would give everything they had in the way of religion to ensure they secure a good position "in the other world", or "oo donya", for themselves.  Money, livestock, etc was routinely "donated' to these ememzadehs due to various reasons including repent, charity, etc.

I am sure that none of them ever asked why they were so many F'ing bache emam and what were they doing in Ajam territory when they kicked the bucket, presumabley.

____________

IRAN FIRST

____________

So What?

Those of you looking down on this lady for her beliefs and religious practices need to get over yourselves. You do the same thing everyday. I wonder how often you visit the mall due to your obsession with consumption which creates for you an illusion of progress and prosperity and your addiction to cheap chinese-made products, how often the well-off amongst you take a trip to some "exotic" location for vacation or tourism without caring about the real conditions of the indigenous or locals of your "vacation spots", how often mahmoudg takes a trip to his holy site (the liquor store). You all do the same thing for different reasons. So shut up and stop judging people over their beliefs. You are no better than her. In fact she is better than the ignorant, racist and narcissist idiots who comment on this website.

How...?

How the heck this crazy Arab guy (so called Imam Reza) ended up in the north east of Iran. Is he really who he is as these people believe him to be?

How come we got so many crazy Arabs ( as Imams) scattered all over Iran and some of them died (and went to hell) in remote places...?

Amazing haw far religious brain washing and superstition could go...they always bank on simple, naive and gullible people...

kourosh

all i'm saying is that this whole concept of pilgrimmage is a money-making enterprise.  this is to enrich the coffers of the mosques and the religious establishment.  the same establishment that uses its resources to repress its people.  if hajj was not a pillar of islam, a much smaller percentage of people would trek out in the middle of saudi desert (only then i would say it's their own free will).  do you see the distinction?  that's the only way jihadist muslims figured out how to extract people's hard-earned money by mandating pilgrimmage.  i'm not sure if other religions have done that explicitly in their holy books (e.g., bible advoating people to go to vatican or nazareth).  the same goes with pilgrimmages to other holy cities.  the mollah on tha manbar tells his constituents that a good muslim should make pilgrimmages.  the more pilgrims, the more money in the bank.

during the overthrow of the shah, the mosques (and the bazaris) gave money from their coffers to oil workers so that they would hold a strike.  that's how powerful this money-making enterprise can be.  having said that, i'm not saying that this pilgrimmage has not spiritual value for the pilgrim.

hamsade jan

when people were throwing their money and jewelery over the wall of imam reza's in shah's time, the money was going to shah's cronies such as valian (ostandar) and those under him.  when we talk about education, we shouldn't mean going to school of dentistry or engineering.  we should educate them about the superstitions (khorafat) of religion as choghok mentioned. 

Ok. I agree. It is a waste of valuable either way you look at it. But why call it Khorafat? what give you or I the right tool to make that judgement? How much education would be enough? for how long? how would you have reacted if somone had seriously challenged your belifes in anything?

as you know, one of the five pillars of islam is pilgrimmage to mecca.  please tell me where would saudi arabia rank in terms of tourism if the pillar of hajj was not included.  right now, they're ranked at #21 (above netherlands, switzerland, japan, australia, ...).   going to saudi arabia is not some sort of time-honored tradition, neither is going to najaf, medina, karabala and mashhad.  these are religious traditions, and in one case (hajj), a major duty of a moslem. 

A duty that is Honored and well-respected and dutifully done by so many, who deeply believe in Islam. How can that not be a tradition if it has been practiced by so many? I am not gonna say it is right or wrong, But it nevertheless is a tradition. You can not be sure that they make such pilgrimmiages under  their leaders' influence, as it could very well be by choice. These are "devotees" as much as those others, Hinudues and Buddhists, and you really can not make the statement  that the former is doing it not by choice and the latter is. Perhaps you should observer a little more closely:)

time.