Misc

AI is right but I also see where JJ is coming from

Countries like USA and Canada did get it right. Banning Hejab is as bad as forcing it. However I also remember the story, about the Muslim father who killed his daughter for not wearing Hejab in Toronto. Indeed in some Muslim households (as well as other religious households), girls are physically abused for not following religious customs; fortunately there are laws that protect children from physical abuse and I believe immigrant children and women should be made aware of these laws so that they can protect themselves against abusive men. That said, I think France is going in the wrong direction here.

I also find it rather ironic that this Q character who has, in the past, expressed his pride and joy about "glorious" establishment if IRI in 1979, is now so indignant about this French law. Indeed, laws established in 1979 against women, make laws like banning hejab (or forcing it for that matter) look like laws of mercy.

"Q", if you are so worried about women's right you are better served trying to bring down IRI and its barbaric laws against women, rather than supporting it.

Veil in Iran is mandatory. No veil must be madatory in EU!

My moslem mom anytime she would go to Europe she would immediately take off her veil. If she wouldn't, my dad would take it off anyway. Of course, this goes way back. Upon our protests, she would respond: "BA CHADOR KEH BISHATAR BEHEM NEGAH MIKONAND!" "OOMADAM INJA YEZAREH AZAD BASHAM."

"NEJABAT KEH BEH CHADOR NIST. ZAN KHODESH BAAYAD NAJEEB BAASHEH. Zan agar bekhad kerm berizeh, baraash fargh nemikoneh keh ba chador basheh ya bichador!" These were her quotes as i remember them.

These people should not be allowed in Europe. They should be sent back to their home country. If you want to live the same way, why did you even bother leaving? EUROPA ROW BEH LAJAN KESHIDAN!

When europeans come to iran or saudi ahamaghia, they say, they really don't like wearing hejab but, they respect our culture (or they are forced to respect it). Therfore, they abide by it grudgingly. So why shouldn't these moslems do the same when they go to those countries? What is their excuse? Did you say because they are ignorants?

I am leaning toward supporting France

...but Q has well argued his position, I should say, as JJ and others have theirs.

Thanks everyone.

Yours,

Ali P.

Good Job France !!!

I 100% support the Burqa ban in France and i believe this should be implemented in America as well. I believe people who practice this very severe and extreme form of modesty (hijab) suffer from a psychiatric illness. These women hate themselves, they are depressed, they lack confidence, and they feel religious fanaticism will cover up their personal failings in life. I know these women I see them all the time at the Masjid. You talk to them and their perspective is pretty negative. They feel worthless, they have a very dreary outlook on life, and they feel their only purpose in life is to be an object for their husbands. In addition, these women don’t think for themselves, speak for themselves, and have completely resigned themselves to be used by their husbands and later discarded !!! It's not even an issue with them. In short they don't feel entitled to the full rights of a human being !!!! The Burqa promotes this unhealthy view and is apart of this ideology. If government can break this cycle by taking one component away (the burqa) then they stand a better chance of moderating.

JJ and Q

Readers have decided.  shab bekhair.

Agree to disagree

Q, am I saying I know better? I am only expressing my view. You just don't like it. I feel the same about yours.

Let readers decide who has the better ideas.

Alright Javid...

Righteous is someone who thinks he knows better when it comes to other people (or other people's children) when it comes to their own culture and life choices.

Everyone wears clothes.

So what? If you are in a rural Iranian village where "everyone" wears hejab, that means you should too? I don't think that's what you want to be saying.

Your distinction between "religious practice" and "accepted cultural norm" is a red herring. Many cultural norms came from religion. Actually, hejab is not anywhere IN Koran. It is an interpretation of "modesty", and accepted social norm in Muslim societies to various degrees depending on the society.

Europeans here are simply seeking to privilege one arbitrary level of decency. They are anti-relgion, right? So why do they actually wear clothes in public at all? Why do they outlaw sex in public (and nudity in the US)? Where did this come from?

So some covering is a "social norm" but anything more (Islam) and anything less (Kalahari tribes) is "wrong" all of a sudden? Please... this is just a basic (and natural) attempt at privileging their own culture over others they may not feel comfortable with. All the excuses are BS.

Covering yourself does not equal "avoid society". Iranian women are very much in society and in every level, even compared to other countries that don't have hejab mandates. Women in Japan are culturally inferior according ot Japanese tradition.

If this is someone's choice you and I and the French government should just accept it.

You mention that women in the Kalahari desert don't cover themselves at all. Well, these women do not walk the streets of towns and cities. The Kalahari traditions are tolerated because they don't affect society at large.

What "affect society" ? why should this affect a supposed non-religious society?

You say, "In parts of India young girls uniformly wear saris." Yes they do. But they are not forced to cover their head.

You don't get the point! In France they are not forced to either, but they want to. Why is a sari OK, but not hejab, is it your personal bias?

No law in India will ever "ban" the Sari OR the Hejab.

Yes. Does that practice turn them into second-class citizens as the hejab does to girls/women?

What are you talking about? Who is saying girls in France are second class citizens? Not the girls! So the correct analogy is if the French government thought that the siks were second class citizens, it should immediately ban their head dressing, regardless of what they themselves think!!!

I am against circumcision on boys and girls.

Wel, fine. Even though you are not consistent in your advocacy (never written anything against male circumcision which also loses feeling for men), you are at least consistent in this sentence.

If a value system allows husbands to beat their wife, that is UNACCEPTABLE in a FREE society.

Unacceptable but happens all the time in every free society. Is there a reason this same level of "unacceptable" can't be applied to Muslims? I guess the question is, why are the things muslims do more unacceptable then the things regular French society does (much of which harms women as I explained) ?

Again, we have to revisit the cultural bias question.

The issue here is the hejab and in almost all cases it starts from childhood through parents.

Regarding the hejab, first, yes, you said "it is 'imposed by Muslims', which is not true. It is imposed by some Muslims, and almost zero for young girls.

Yes, it "starts" from childhood, because that's where everything starts. Puttin on pants, putting food in mouth, learning to read, how to dance or sing or speak. You choose to call the one thing you don't like "impose" but by this standard, everything is imposed on the child in all societies.

Most girls who wear hejab don't think of it as "imposed". It's in the same category as wearing pants or acceptable haircuts. It's a social norm. Why would a child make a distinction between hejab and shoes?

But this is besides the point. You say that there are some practices prevented by parents. Yes, in America, you are right, "basic education" for children is a law. This is not any kind of an argument for your case.

It is not taken seriously in America and never has been. The reason is that there are private religious schools which can teach anything they want as well as "home schooling" (that has zero standards) which allows parents who don't want to follow this law to do so easily.

Under the kind of imposition that you advocate there is no such loophole or alternative for Muslim parents.

In other, extreme cases, you have a point. The law won't let you kill your child, for example or abuse him/her physically. These are clear cases of putting the life of the child in danger. No one has ever shown that hejab hurts a woman in any way in France. There are women wearing hejab in America and in Iran who have done jut about everything possible. They should be allowed to do it if they choose to, and they should be allowed to teach it to their children.

JJ jaan

JJj, you say: "Yes, my parents taught me to wear pants. But if I was a girl and born in a Muslim family, I would have to wear pants AND cover my head and body."!!!!!?

No JJ, you're wrong! Not all muslim girls...:
//browsei.com/upload/Pictures/direct/hijab-re...
;-)

Viva La France!

Excellent law! Viva La France!

I suggest that they extend the law to all the men and women wearing long large dresses! Maybe they should be forced to wear more transparent fabrics, or make the dresses much tighter, or add some holes here and there...to make sure they don't carry bombs, etc.

But to be fair, I think they should also pass a law against going topless after 75.

And a law forcing the French to take a shower, at least once a  month, or to smile at strangers, or to say hi to their neighbors  once a day, or to write on  a piece of paper:"Je suis sans prétention" 100 times a year.

I Don't Trust You

I hate hijab with passion. It simply means "hey, men and women, I don't trust you.

Hejab = Slavery

Emancipate women from the misery. Down with hejab.

More power to France and Switzerland.

Value systems

Q, you say "I love how you make a crime out of nothing simply because you righteously don't agree with someone else's value system."

Q, we are discussing an issue. You are expressing your views, and I am mine. If I am sounding righteous, so are you.

You ask, "Who taught you to wear pants in the streets? Did your parents impose it on you?"

Yes, my parents taught me to wear pants. But if I was a girl and born in a Muslim family, I would have to wear pants AND cover my head and body.

Everyone wears clothes. But in a Muslim family, girls are not treated the same as boys. Girls do not have the same freedoms as boys. Boys are not required to cover themselves and avoid society. Girls ARE.

You say, "Why do girls have to cover their breasts?" Covering breasts is NOT a religious practice. It is a commonly accepted social practice. Covering breasts in a non-Muslim setting is not equal to covering everything else as well.

You mention that women in the Kalahari desert don't cover themselves at all. Well, these women do not walk the streets of towns and cities. The Kalahari traditions are tolerated because they don't affect society at large.

You say, "In parts of India young girls uniformly wear saris." Yes they do. But they are not forced to cover their head. Secular laws in India guarantee rights to women which supersede any religious law or tradition.

You say "Sik men don't cut their hair and wear the turban." Yes. Does that practice turn them into second-class citizens as the hejab does to girls/women? No.

You say, "Jews, like Muslims uniformly perform male circumcision, which has been called 'mutilation' by some Christian and Hindu activists." So are you defending "female circumcision" by some Muslims? I am against circumcision on boys and girls. However, this procedure on girls is particularly cruel and inhuman because they completely lose the feeling of sexual pleasure.

You say people have different value systems. Yes they do. But value systems are not universally accepted or acceptable. If a value system says that girls should not go to school or get out of the house, that is UNACCEPTABLE in a free society. If a value system says women cannot have sex before marriage or else they can be killed in the name of god, that is UNACCEPTABLE in a FREE society. If a value system allows husbands to beat their wife, that is UNACCEPTABLE in a FREE society. If a value system says gays should be put to death for anal sex, that is UNACCEPTABLE in a FREE society.

You say, "So don't give me this BS 'hejab IS imposed by Muslim parents'... no it's not. Wearing pants is a lot more imposed by secular parents than hejab is imposed by Muslim parents. You can see for yourself that many Muslim parents do not impose it. Almost none impose it on young girls anyway."

The hejab is not imposed by Muslim parents? We are not talking about secular Muslims like Iranians outside Iran, or those mostly in cities in Iran. We are discussing religious families, and nearly all of them impose the hejab. The issue here is the hejab and in almost all cases it starts from childhood through parents.

You say religious families "have a right to raise their children how they want." No they don't. The law will prevent you from certain practices that may harm children (again I mention education; you cannot deny a child from basic education). What I am saying is that laws should be changed to stop the hejab being imposed on girls.

...

Eslaam e Naab e Mohammadi...

Requires and demand subjugation of woman, you don’t believe me read the Quran for yourself!

Khar, don't jump to conclusions

I already wrote that I don't approve of foced Hejab.

Freedom of Religion is a Fundamental Right

If we are talking about banning the Hijab in the USA, or banning Muslim parents from forcing their girls to wear the Hijab, such a law would (rightly so) never pass in the USA. JJ I think you are totally wrong on this one and it stems from your hate of religion as a result of what you experienced from the IRI. 

My take on is is that the people in America got it right. We should not get involved in regulating religious matters such as this. The French are totally wrong on this law. 

The reason why Muslims do not integrate in France is because the French are racist and there is no opportunity in the country to excel.  Their socialist system sucks.

Do Muslims have the same integration issues in the USA? I doubt it and I hardly see it. I live in the North East with a large Muslim population. Second generation Muslims in our area are fully integrated and become part of the society with or without Hijab because of opportunity to work and earn a living  and freedom of religion. This does not happen in France an  its their societies' problem not Muslim's fault. 

Banning these religious practices has the opposite effect and marginalizes these people even further and makes these Europeans look like hypocrites.

I think many Muslim Iranians are so sickened by the IRI and its imposition of Islamic rules and Sharia on the population that they want to take it out on Muslims and Muslim practices whenever there is an opportunity.   

I wish there was freedom of religion in Iran like there is freedom of religion in the US. I am not a religious person at all but I see the benefit this freedom has for society. 

Well Q

Q Jan,

I am not passing judgment here. Rather I am trying to get to the root of the French action. 

As for minorities causing problems it absolutely happens. Just look at Serbia. Less than a century the majority of people in  Kosovo were Serbs. Over time immigrants from Albania moved there and eventually demanded secession. Right now in Spain the Basque minority wants to separate. So I guess the majority figures if they kick out the minority then they don't have to worry about such demands. Is it right? It depends on your point of view. I am just saying that is human nature and the likely reason.

HEY Q, so you don't mind subjugation of women...

If no one in your immediate family object to it!? In the Middle East (even in the west) in the Muslim families wearing hejaab contrary to what you are proclaiming to be is not voluntary it’s imposed on women from childhood by their fathers and by the subugated mothers. This treatment of woman goes hand in hand with the Sharia laws and a religion as a whole which is designed for men and to degrade woman.

PS. do you wear short sleeve shirts during summer time? if you do you don’t know what they are going through wearing that cover in 90-100 degree heat.

Veiled prophet, that is a very interesting theory

so, what you're basically saying is that one culture feels threatened by the actions and even the appearance of a minority culture.

So it's ok to make life difficult for them to "get them to immigrate out" in order to preserve their own culture?

Can you think of another case where a cultural "you are not welcome here" was put into practice?

(hint: it's near France)

shahabshahab, thank you for showing everyone reading what these sentiments, and pseudo-rational arguments in their favor are really about.

The French will be sorry!

Just wait until all these Moslem and Arab women are forced to take off their veil and Islamic clothes. Their hidoues sight without veil will scare the daylights out of every French man, woman and child. Only then, will the French people flock to their government beggiing them to allow Moslem women to again  wear the hejab, Burgha, whatever it takes. They will scream: Please cover your faces and bodies, for god's (and our) sake!!!

True reason behind the hejab ban

I believe France wants to make the environment so hostile to get Islamists to move. In other words get them toimmigrate out. Now for the details:

France is or at least French feel they are in a war for the survival of its culture as we know it. The problem is that some Muslims in France refuse to be integrated. Instead they want to form their own mini-nation within a nation. This is wrong. People should be good guests and thankful instead of acting up like spoiled brats. These folks move to Europe; use the welfare state; use their freedoms but give no thanks nor show any respect. When someone uses their centuries long freedom of speech to publish a cartoon they go ballistic. When someone makes a movie they don't like they murder him. 

In response France is in effect saying: you are not welcome here so get out. French are making laws they know is unpalatable to Islamic radicals specially the men. Their hope is that these folks will not be able to accept this so they will pack up and go. A response which the French would love to see. 

PS,

We Iranians do not act this way. Even the most religious Iranians are generally respectful of the nations where they live. That is why despite all IRI bad publicity we are generally well liked wherever we are. Good for us :-)

Hey Khar,

I might come from a different cultural norm than you, but how did you feel about Reza Shah banning Chadors by force of bayonet? I suppose I shed just as many tears as you did when you found out about the forcing-uncovering of hejab. Fair enough?

I didn't feel "good" about it, but I also had no relatives who particularly minded wearing hejab. I understand some people are just not into it and I do not agree with the law that imposes this on a social level with the force of police.

But I also do not agree with anyone seeking to degrade or belittle the practice.

You can walk in the streets all over Iran and see how many people really want to wear it and really don't. The ones who want it, are the ones who are wearing dark chadors, and there is no shortage of them. The ones who don't like it are the ones who have a half-ass scarf barely covering anything.

Yes, they should not have to do that which is actually an insult to the idea of hejab.

YES I DO FEEL GOOD about emancipation of women

This is profoundly misguided. Only a chauvunist considers a forceful act "emancipation" even when it's against the will of the person being supposedly "emancipated". So you know better than the hejab-wearing women, what's good for them and their families? You don't see just a slight bit of self-righteous arrogance in this?

Mr. Q please read my note directly below your long essay...

You may get why I FEEL GOOD about this.

oh Please Javid!

I love how you make a crime out of nothing simply because you riteously don't agree with someone else's value system.

Khar (the person I addressed) said he was feeling good on a law imposing restrictions into other people's families who have faught in courts for the right to keep wearing what they want.

Let me ask you a question.

Who taught you to wear pants in the streets? Did your parents impose it on you?

Why do girls have to cover their breasts? If you went to the Kalahari desert, you will find young girls and women who don't cover themselves at all. In parts of India young girls uniformly wear saris. Sik men don't cut their hair and wear the turban. Jews, like Muslims uniformly perform male circumcision, which has been called "mutilation" by some Christian and Hindu activists.

Is this all because their parents forced them? Or is it because there is a social value system that these societies adhere to. Standard of decency when it comes to clothing is part of it. People are different, why is this a problem for you or the French government?

So don't give me this BS "hejab IS imposed by Muslim parents"... no it's not. Wearing pants is a lot more imposed by secular parents than hejab is imposed by Muslim parents. You can see for yourself that many Muslim parents do not impose it. Almost none impose it on young girls anyway.

But some do because they are more religious in their family. They have a right to raise their children how they want.

If you claim to care about "harm" caused to children, then you should know that in western societies there are plenty of things that cause harm to women, either in psychological/self-esteem terms, or in terms of encouraging male aggressiveness, such as gun violence. These have been studied for years and it has shown that social forces such as violent commercialism and consumer objectification are strong factors in such a behavior immitated by children and young adults.

This is why some religious christians do not send their kids to public schools and try to shelter them according to their own values, right or wrong. Nobody has a right to make them uniform.

But then again, no one really cares because they are not demonized and singled out like Muslims are every day. Why are people always "kasseye dagh tar az ash" only when it comes to restricting muslims and "their children"?

You weren't forced to wear pants. You picked up the practice in the household you lived in. You knew it would upset your parents if you went to school without pants, so now you are "choosing" to follow that practice in your adult life.

It doesn't have to be pants. It could easily be shorts, or turban, or "acceptable haircut" or hejab.

Don't take that same choice away from other parents.

Mr. Q and Mrs. HolyUSA

Did you feel Bad or protested the Iranian Women Misery with FORCED hejab 31 years ago which continues till today? Or did you feel good about that!? Some of us including me protested against this sexist, unjust, backward, demeaning practice on that spring day 31 years ago!

YES I DO FEEL GOOD about emancipation of women from social practices which has subjugated her for centuries. Because I have daughter, mother and sister myself!

It definitely feels good but JJ point is valid,

Freedom and right to choose apply to everyone. I find Hejab is the most disgusting thing I ever observed but even though it is very hard for me to accept it, I can not encroach on other people right.

I wonder how the French managed to pass this law through.

Allez les Français!

Although I agree that Muslim women can wear the hejab in Western societies, especially in Canada and Quebec, as long as it is not in the institutions of the secular state or in public schools (primary and high schools), allowing women to wear the burqa or the niqab in the public space must be forbidden. In Quebec, concealing one's face for any reason beside having a medical condition or during festivals such as Halloween, is perceived as a refusal to accept the cultural sensibilities of the society in which a person should be part of. Not to be able to see the face of a women with whom she/he speaking is mostly perceived very negatively by the Québécois and the French as a way to propagate extreme religious beliefs which are totally opposed to our secular, feminist and equalitarian values. By feminist I mean the real, original, bitchy feminism, not the one of a so-called politically correct bohemian-bourgeois Left that accepts that a woman can wear a cloth on her face that symbolizes a lower status than men because she practices a religion by her own free will.

I salute the courage of the French who dared to put their foot on the floor. May their new law be voted soon. It is time stop the propagation of this form of religious extremism in the West and elsewhere in the world.

Oui M. Le Pape! Mets-en! Et les laïques d'ici (et d'Iran!) veilleront au grain.

Parents should be trusted with religious values? Not always

Q, first of all, who's "feeling good" and what "misery"?

Second, you say, "Young girls have far more problems than religion. Are you intellectually consistent enough to ban barbie dolls? violent cartoons? sexist movies? and the Internet? What about short skirts and child beauty pageants? What about domestic violence? If you don't trust the parents with religious values they wish to teach their children, why do you trust them will all these other things that actually lead to numerous deaths, rape and suicides every year?"

-- Is giving a girl a doll (barbie or other), the same as covering her from head to toe from age eight or nine and teaching her that she should not participate in society the same way as boys? In non-Muslim families, barbies are not forced on girls. Some have them, some don't. But in Muslim families, covering girls with a veil is common.

-- Violent cartoons? You don't have to watch them. But the hejab IS imposed by Muslim parents.

-- Sexist movies? Don't watch them. But the hejab IS imposed by Muslim parents.

-- Internet? What about it? Girls don't have to go online. But the hejab IS imposed by Muslim parents.

-- What about short skirts and child beauty pageants? What about them? As a parent you have a choice. If you don't like them, don't introduce your daughter to them. But the hejab IS imposed by Muslim parents.

-- What about domestic violence? What about it? It's against the law. But the hejab IS imposed by Muslim parents.

-- Parents should be trusted with their religious values? Not always. If their religious values includes keeping girls from going to school, society intervenes and compels parents to allow all their children to go to school. If their religious values means genital mutilation of their girls, society can and often does intervene to prevent it.

Barbie dolls = forced Hijab ?!

On what planet ?

Mr. Q, what is the purpose of hijab? Why don't Muslim men wear hijab?

Way to go France

Hijab is a cancerous disease that should be dealt with at early stages before it spreads in the society...

If muslims* want to live in the west they should respect the traditions and obey the laws of the land. 

*What the hell does putting on a mask have to do with islam?!!

Dear JJ

You say that "As adults women can and should be allowed to choose the hejab if they wish".

Fathers and brothers (hell even male cousins) of ADULT women in many Muslim countries force women to wear hijab.

When they don't harassment ensues; some times in form of acid thrown on faces, some times lables of whore and slut and many times verbal abuse.

Hijab has gotta go.