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Not so kingpillaroffaith!

Did I say that Iranians converted to Shiism willingly? You seem to have interpreted my words beyond what I had intended. Shiism had deep roots in Iran long before the Safavid empire was created (by the way the Safavids territory DID cover Kurdistan and a large part of Afghanistan and yet they were not converted to Shiism so your suggested proof has holes in it). //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Safavid_Empire_1... Moreover, Iranians had a long history adherence to the Shiite sect and welcoming them as is evidenced by the choice of refuge and final burial place by the eigth Imam of Shiites (Imam Reza in Mashad) and his brother (Shah-cheragh in Shiraz) and their sister (Masoumeh, in Qom). Also our greatest epic poet, Ferdowsi was a staunch shiite which takes us to about a 1000 years ago. Shiism is quintessentially a very Persian sect - a protest faith in answer to the mainstream Sunnism.

FR

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To Mrs. Farah Roosta

Ms. Farah Roosta,
Iranians were overwhelmingly Sunnis until the 1500’s when the Safavis converted them by force to Shiism. The process of conversion from Sunni to Shia took almost 200 years. So your claim that Iranians embraced Shiism as a form of resistance to ruling Arabs is completely wrong. The proof is that some populations that were not under Safavi rule at the time of the conversions but that were Iranian by origin (Kurds, Afghans, Tajiks, etc...) are still Sunnis today.

A few corrections

If one intends to legitimize Nasr's ideas, as poorly attempted here, by calling him Dr Vali Nasr in every other sentence, then he might as well address him correctly by his correct title of Professor, or Nasr may not forgive him.

Secondly, if Persians had accepted Islam willingly or "with open arms" and not by force, like the overwhelming majority of the Muslim nations (mainly arabs and Africans), they would have followed the same sect as the rest of the Muslim nations, meaning the Sunni sect. They showed their objection and resistance to the forcible conversion to Islam by following the rebellious and non-conforming path (sect) of Shiism which is essentially a Persian version of Islam. Shiism is the the proof of rejection of the mainstream Sunni Islam and acceptance of the version which had its roots in an ostensibly Persian story (myth) that the grandson of the Prophet, Hussain, married the daughter of the defeated Persian king, Shahr banu hence the rest of the Shiite Imams were of Persian royal ancestry.Iranians acceptance of Shiite Islam is proof enough to prove resistance (or a compromise solution) to the forcible conversion to Islam otherwise we were all Sunnis today (Ref: read works of Abdol Hussein Zarinkoob, Zabih Behrooz, Shafi'e Kadekani and Shojaeddin Shafa).  

FR

"Bridge of Torquoise"

"open arms?" I'm sure some Iranians did this for various reasons (Sassanid corruption or personal advancement). In fact, I'm sure of it because of documented cases.

But the reality is that Islam was not forced on the Iranians as a whole. It was not forced as a rule. Of course one can find exception cases. This has been studied over and over again and the pattern of religious conversion in Iran is very much like everwhere else (except the Catholic conquests of Latin America and some of the protestant conquests in Australia and South Africa, which were genocidal reengineerings of native societies).

Unfortunately those who hate Islam, or rather they hate this part of the Iranian culture, depend on this "forcible mass conversion" argument which is rather silly and unsustainable by facts.

For those who wish to explore further, see my blog here:
//iranian.com/main/blog/q/myth-islam-spread-s...

Dr. Vali Nasr Calls it Both "Persian Gulf" and "Gulf"

In minute 14:00 of the tape he calls it "Persian Gulf", but reverts to "Gulf" in minute 45:19 in his response to a question. As an Iranian scholar he should be very keen to this name issue and avoid giving the impression of advancing the Arab media campaign against our Persian identity and heritage.

On the main issue, Dr. Vali Nasr claims that he has found the cause of revived fundamentalism in the Muslim world and its symptoms of violent extremism. That cause is the missing middle class.   Not any middle class though, but the right one like that in USA or Korea which is not created by government handouts but by private entrepreneurs working within the global free market economy. Furthermore, this middle class in the Muslim societies generates prosperity, political stability, democracy, and moderation in their Islamic laws and practices. So the foreign policy of USA should be directed to create middle class entrepreneurs in Muslim countries, who will advance democracy and moderate the extreme violent practices of Islamic brethren. This, he also states, is a solution to the violence and extremism in Islamic societies. There are some unsupported assertions in his speech but I will suffice to the following comments:

1. This missing middle class is the result of the shortcomings of the Muslim societies with autocratic governments and poor populace, and not the cause of fundamentalism revival and violence.   

2. There is no evidence that Muslim middle class can change a dictatorship, being secular or religious one, to a democracy. Actually the ruling class with guns and power easily stop any democratic movement or aspiration in the short and medium runs. In the long run we all die, and in the very long run, five billion years, the earth and everything on it will be sizzled by the sun.

3.  Classifying the 1979 Iranian revolution that removed the Pahlavi dictatorship and lead to IRI theocracy a class struggle where the lower class along with the upper class revolted against the upper ruling class is quite questionable.

4. He states that the middle class created in 1990 decade under IRI privatization policies was critical to creation of the green movement that demanded democratic changes from the regime but eventually failed because of small size. He acknowledges the history of earlier reformists’ movement in Iran but contends that without the nascent middle class last year's revolt against the regime would not have materialized. This does not agree with what we all saw in the media, namely the fact that the youths were the driving engine of that protest and not the middle class.  

On the whole the “Forces of Fortune” has many valid points and Dr. Vali Nasr articulates them well.  He is well educated and an asset to the Iranian expatriates in USA.

Pastor Bill

If a police pulls your over and gives you a ticket for instance for failing to singnal properly while changing lanes, it is because cutting in front of someone is a sure thing when something like that happens, which may very likely lead to an accident. How do you expect to be seen and noticed by the driver behind you if you do not do what you are supposed to, in order to get his attention?

 So Really, whether he is in a much shitty mood or he is Sor o mor o gondeh and "serviced" by Gf or wife and therefore in a good mood, He IS doing the right thing, and that does not qualify as a petty violation.

Many times, the comments that get deleted stem from nothing but snide and rude remarks and stupid matalaks that have the potential to ignite and stirr further trouble.

Is that what you wish to see on this site?

Oktaby, IC deleting quota = Police speeding ticket quota!?

The IC moderators are evaluated according to how many comments they delete on a daily basis just like the many police departments evaluate their officers based on how many tickets they issue per day!

Obviously some deletions are necessary to maintain a minimum level of civility in the discourse just like when the police officer stops you running through a red light. But when do you decide and where do draw the line between civil discourse and uncivil discourse? And how do you maintain an unbiased balance?

The deletion rules around here are not based on sound principles. They are based on how the particular deleter feels at that very moment just like how bad a mood the police officer is in when he stops you for a petty traffic violation (changing lanes without signaling.)

For instance, if JJ just consumed a large dose of chello kabob with dough while watching a porno movie any comment is game! But if his mood is pretty somber (e.g., oghatt goh morghi) then no matter what you write it is considered bad and it must be deleted!? If you think I am wrong then prove otherwise!?

thanks again oktaby

i noticed your comment disappeared. i was puzzled. it happened to me once that a comment of mine disappeared in an exchange with 'no fear', but the outcome was gratifying, so i didn't mind.

humanbeing, my comment was removed after you read it

but you are welcome anyway.

IC: I hope removing my comments was an error not some biased or personal preference. Else, it is unprofessional and exposes lack of editorial standards, and control. My comment had nothing but information and my view:

That Nasr et al are traitors to Iran hardly needs any validation. S.H. Nasr was pushing the idea that Iran accepted islam with open arms (Bridge of Torquoise) from decades ago as he collected money from Shah and established himself in various DC circles. Other comments cover his VF and related connections. So his son Vali (what an apt name Vali as in Faghih) was well trained and positioned by his dad to perhaps top his own accomplishments in selling all for a dollar. Their damage has not been and will not remain limited to Iran and has had its impact on U.S. (they are in the Aldrich Ames category in my opinion)

Met S.H. in mid 90s in a social occasion. He is a better dresser than Vali. He is pompous, arrogant and has an ego that did not fit the gigantic hall we were in. He also showed his lack of intellectual prowess, and aptitude  in a PBS seies on cross-religion conversation in early 2000sm even though he is the smarter of the two.

As for Obama, expectations of a positive impact from him may have been greatly exaggerrated (Blog: The Manchurian candidate).  

OKtaby

Nice!

Very insightful and eye and mind openning. He is very thorough and balanced.

Great job 

thanks oktaby

i find this informative. more and more i try to open my mind, get the bigger picture and reassess things. not just the footnotes and the jargon.

obama, believe me, the iri is the furthest thing from me. if you only knew. your hunch is way off.

You're welcome benross jan.

You're welcome benross jan.

Thanks vildemose

Individualism in the western sense, although aspired to, does not exist in China. In the west we admire those who have transgressed the constraints of societal norms and broken free of its shackles and rules, thriving beyond and independently of these, achieving success on ones own terms. In China, what is big are egos, it's the opposite of western individualism that no longer cares about how they are judged by society, in China, individuals are incredibly conservative and conventional and derive all their value from how they are perceived by society.

This is interesting. "We are all Majid Tavakoli" campaign was just the opposite. And there was some news about Chinese supporting Iranian struggle.

Comparison

China's New Middle Class: Constants and Variables

//www.huffingtonpost.com/tom-doctoroff/chinas-new-middle-class-c_b_594579.html

Nasr is stating the obvious

If some find it so refreshing or mind boggling then they must go back and read or listen to his previous deliberations on the same or similar topics.

He is not making ground breaking revelations.  Vildemose is absolutely correct in saying that the West wants to tap into the Islamic mindset. The problem is that they cannot find it out of the like of Nasr (father or son)or Reza Aslan and all those residents of the ivory towers of Harvard, Yale and Johns Hopkins or many other posh addresses. Cambridge Mass. is not the secret back door to the Islamic mindset. These people, Nasrs, Aslans or Majds of this world do not know the first thing about the Islamic mindset. Why? Because they have never lived the Islamic experience. They only learned what they have learned from the books and recently thanks to the power of Google using the search engines of the internet. Oh, I make no mistake, sure they may have made trips to various places and/or interviewed many people but they have not lived the experience.

But there are others who are hardly heard of in the western circles  but are extremely knowledgeable. Sadly they too have their own political agendas. I am talking about people like Alireza Nourizadeh and Mehdi Khalaji who have lived and worked with the clergy and know all the ins and outs of the business but now follow their own (at times misguided) agenda. I am not approving and supporting either of these two individuals but each of them can give most vital knowledge about the mullahs way of thinking that Nasrs and others can not come up with in their entire lives. 

FR

Quite interesting, but I'd like to quibble and comment

1.Security

a) every "class" is need of a sense/perception of "security, even in its aspirations...

b) within an oligarchical/dictarorial system this is almost impossible

c) a "middle-class" (in his definition of "business class") needs the security of the "professional classes". Those in the "professional class" need to have the assurance of the judiciary, which simply isn't happening in places like Iran or Pakistan.The basis is 

d) corruption

2. The rising middle class in ALL predominantly Muslim countries is made up of working  women. These women need LEGAL  RIGHTS and PROTECTION. 

Islam simply has to chuck in its many principles and wash them down, which doesn't translate as reformation (by its own book).

3. A rising middle-class in the situations he described is that of a nouveau class, which isn't in the least bit concerned with the least well off. It thrives on the fact that it has managed to get out of the slums.

4. Dubai is just a terribly ugly joke."Las Vegas on steroids" indeed.

5. The ideas of forbidden usury (also forbidden in the Bible...) are really quite sound, although I don't agree (for reasons not concerning the topic at hand)

6. Pakistan - he mentioned 10 to 15% are middle class. 

NO WONDER! (e.g. madrese are thriving...)

7. My hat off to 85% literacy in Iran.

I'm off to place a bet on an outsider  camel at  25 to 1

each way.

Every fascism is an index of a failed revolution - Walter Benjamin

NON-COMERCIAL USE ONLY

If this site receives CLICKS from this particular video then they are infringing on copyrights issues.

are they not breaking any laws by posting this video to make money?

I love it! All the personal attacks w/o arguing his points!

it is hard to have respect for those who always attack the presenters' father and mother without rebutteling his main theme of the argument. Did you even bother listening to the one hour video?

All Islam bashing without you ever knowing islam is amazing! You sound as ignorant as your western friends! Why? because you guys never dare criticizing judaism or christianity! Too chicken to do that, I might say!

I am not a fan of any, but i can tell you the other religions are worse and more radicals if you know the true religions, instead of judging them by what you see on TV or on the streets. Read the Bible and see for yourself how it orders the killing of innocent children! Remember the crusaders and Bush?

Tell me why he is wrong? I am not saying I agree or disagree, but I want to know your opinion! After all, you have researched this subject all your life, therfore, you must know what you are talking about! Go ahead. I am listening!

As for HUMANBEING, I have a hunch s/he might be one of those government ears listening to us helping her/him to write his/her report.   may be!

i'm a novice

i want to learn and understand.

redeem me of my foolishness, moosir vapiaz

I love all the experts here...

keep on making fool of yourselves...

Thanks Kaveh

I didn't know this one.  I knew of Qotbi's part as well as Shabanu's but Nasr's role is news to me though not a surprise. Although Nasr (Hossein) is hailed as a great Islamic scholar he has admitted he never got a good grasp of Arabic, the language of Islam. Now I have to be careful here as JJ's aunt is a staunch disciple of Nasr!  

FR

Nasr's  "Islamic" cred via

Nasr's  "Islamic" cred via a vis his father got him his job because the Western analysits of CIA and other foreign policy makers only see us Iranians as hordes of baraberic muslims. They want to tap into that "Islamic mindset". Do you think if Nasr's father was a secular nationalist, he would have been where he is now?? I don't think so.

ps masouda

our comments crossed. i wrote mine before seeing yours. please also give me some more details ifyou see this.

F.R.

Now I feel your pain!

But snap out of it. The truth of the matter is that the Shah did not have any realistic option at that point and time. The rest is semantics.

On the positive side, the Shah left a positive legacy when it comes to modern values. Something that we can now claim with historic reference.

I know I know, whoever drafted that speech for Shah did not have that in mind! 

off topic curiosity: seyyed hossein nasr

being ignorant of political things, i only know seyyed hossein nasr through his academic work, such as 'islamic cosmological doctrines', 'islamic science', and his work on suhrawardi etc. he is very learned (although here and there i don't entirely agree with all his interpretations of greek sources on little details). one is left, on reading his work, with the impression of the huge contribution of thinkers of iranian background on the scientific achievements in the period of the islamic cultural heyday (4th/10th c.).

please refer me to a little more background, especially commenter kaveh parsa, what did SHR write in 78?

Pastor Bill You are mindless

You are just a mindless person who attacks religion becuase you do not understand it or tolerate it.But in a similiar way of a cheerleader because you do no convincing of anyone religious or non religious,therefore you just cheer..

Nasr the father

Is the biggest traitor to Iran and Iranians.  He was the one who convinced the Democrats to go along with the Revolution in Iran and now the son is at it with Obama, trying to present a useful face to IR. 

Benross & FR

What the Wiki piece does not say about the daddy is that he, together with shahbanou's cousin (Qotbi), wrote shah's infamous "I hear the voice of your revolution" speech in october 78.

KP