Current Events

Larijani cartoon

I think it's his lil brother though. The one that heads the judiciary.

My comment down below was addressed to I.Guard

Glad, there are so many of you who know the "truth".

Frankly, I don't even know what you're talking about

What the hack does holocaust of the European Jews have to do with this guy and stoning?

Again not challenging the human rights situation in Iran

No mention of thousands of students thrown in jail after the elections. Rose only gets passionate while defending Jews.

Move over Lari I wanna See Colin Firth ...

Charlie Rose and Colin Firth Star of the King's Speech:

//www.charlierose.com/view/interview/11313

Which brings me to my other

Which brings me to my other assumption that Ahmadinejad may not be so concerned about the Palestinian issues as he might be about Iranian issues in the region. Or the other possibility is that he's too stupid or too emotional about the issue that he can't see this reality.

I think it is ridiculous to

I think it is ridiculous to assign a number to the justification of the
existence of the state of Israel. That's why I think it's a diversion
from the actual facts on the ground. Palestinians are suffering enough
without senseless discussions that bear no relevance to the facts. 6
million dead is not a magic number that draws more sympathy than 2
million dead.

It is up to you!

As I said it is something that you would have to answer! What would that change if it was discovered that there were 2 million instead of 6 million. I cannot presuppose to know that and as a matter of fact I don't know. But it must mean something if it is being brought up this often? Or is it just because it is such an attention-grabber and makes great headlines?

You tell me! What is your take on it?

Immortal Guard

I hope you realize that I'm being genuine in my question and am not
trying to twist anything. In fact I can vividly see that I'm the only
one that is having an honest and inquisitive conversation with you here.

But that aside, in your recent response, you're talking about the
'negotiating leverage' that might be gained by the 'truth' about the
holocaust without assigning a value to this truth in the realm of the
Palestinian issue. How could something become a leverage if we can't
assign a value to it. That is why I'm asking you again, how does the new
revelation that 'only 2 million Jews died in the holocaust and not 6
million change the discourse about the Palestinian issue. If the number
is two million, what leverage is gained by the negotiators?

very Clever

You are twisting the logic. Or maybe you are just deriving some pleasure from twisting the logic and to see how I react!

Ahmadinejad is diverting the attention. So maybe you should not step into that trap and not play into his hands. 

But it is also a question of public opinion and perception management. Unfortunately as we say in Persian: "Mardom aghleshoon too cheshmeshoomeh"! So his target is the ordinary Jack and Jane on the street who would apportion their judgment of the Holocaust by the number of people that perished! In the eyes of the ordinary Jack and Jane the letter of the law is more important than the spirit of the law. For them numbers take on a far more important dimension.

But primarily I think that Ahmadinejad got this Holocaust issue rolling and unfortunately even people like Charlie Rose are falling for this.

But you should ask yourself what would change in your bargaining power and negotiating leverage if you actually welcomed further investigation and it came, hypothetically speaking, to light after some well-practised research that the numbers are indeed exaggerated and and some of the footage Hollywood-doctored! So the onus is on you! In my view this obstinate hard-headed villification of those questioning the Holocaust would not serve you well in the long run! At least not in those circles that matter!

Immortal Guard:

"I personally believe that it is quite unfortunate that our country has got involved in a touchy issue that is none of our business. We are paying for other people's hatred towards the Jews! "

While I cautiously agree with this statment, I strongly believe facts and/or rhetoric of IRI about Holocaust has little to do with their hostility and only being used as an excuse to demonize Iran for their own political gain.

This is just a parallel to IRI challenging and disobeying the Americans which they can not allow.  Similarly, if they allow one entity like Iran to point out and make case about politicization of Holocaust, then others will follow suit and will put an end to weapon that they have been using so affectively.

Mehrdad

Immortal Guard

I'm sorry Immortal Guard but you're not seeing this from the angle that
I'm approaching it.

I told you that I don't disagree that Israel has
used the holocaust as pretext to screw Palestinians. I also agree with you that
there's an unnecessary taboo about the subject.

But my point was that
Ahmadinejad is doing a disservice to the Palestinian struggle by
diverting the attention from real issues to the holocaust. If you dispute that, as it
appeared you did, then tell me how would a new set of findings about the
holocaust chgange the discourse about the Palestinian
issue? And if the 'true' number of dead in the holocaust doesn't change
the premises of our Palestinian discussion, then what is the benefit of
bringing it up? It is imperative for this question to be answered in
order for me to accept your point or at least revise my own point in light of our discussion.I hope you can see the importance of a direct answer to thisquestion.

OZ

Well for one thing if you showed less sensitivity on this issue it would also imply less resistance on your part. When you keep hammering the interviewees on the Holocaust issue over and over again it seems that you have something to hide or you are hiding something under the Holocaust issue. So if you have nothing to hide then don't put up too much resistance. If proper research into this Holocaust issue is done then maybe for one thing it could be put to rest! But when you keep vilifying anybody trying to approach this issue from a different angle then you just provoke suspicion! But somehow it seems that any concessions on your part would entail an erosion of your legitimacy and that would tilt the balance dangerously against you! I guess that people on the other side also kind of enjoy to push your buttons with this obsession of yours!

I personally believe that it is quite unfortunate that our country has got invloved in a touchy issue that is none of our business. We are paying for other people's hatred towards the Jews!

I did not express my position on the Palestinian-Israeli issue in this thread! Refer to a comment of mine which I made in late 2008 on this site to get your answer! There I explained at length my personal view on this issue! But one often-cited statement is that the Jews justify their occupation and treatment of the Palestinians so far because of what they went through in the past in Christian Europe and Holocaust!

I also think that more research needs to be done on the Spanish Inquisition and the Russian Pogroms and the long string of Jewish persecutions in Europe. For instance I read somewhere that while the Christian armies converged from different parts of Europe to go on Crusades against Muslims when they passed through different cities and towns they would kill a few Jews! So this excessive obsession with Holocaust borders at times on the farcical!

JUST ENUMERATE THE TACTICS............

Or maybe you are also too stingy when it comes to sharing knowledge!?

Don't tergiversate and equivocate!

Immortal Guard

I've been thinking about the points you raised in your response for a
while now.

I need to ask you a question that would help me come to a
conclusion about our discussion. Even though I can fully understand how
sensitive this issue is for the Jewish population because of the horror
they underwent, I cannot argue with you that the subject matter is some
what of an unnecessary  taboo. I also agree that any such behavior in
the long run is not beneficial to any cause.

My question is, lets say we
become more open towards the subject of holocaust and treat it with less
sensetivity, and as a result of this openness new research in the area
of events leading up to and during WWII prove that in fact 6 million
Jews didn't lose their lives in the holocaust and only 2 million did.
Now my question to you is that how would this new reality change the
discourse of Israeli Palestinian issue? Does that automatically void the
Jewish claim to the land? Should they then up and leave Palestine
because the jig is up? If you could answer this for me that would help
me come to a new conclusion as a result of our discussion.

Here you go again....

You remind me of my Jewish-Iranian friend at college...

Yeah, yeah, yeah...everyone who disagrees with you and the IRI is a Zionist Jew, Israel loving blah, blah, blah, blah....

Don't you get tired of this BS? 

ENUMERATE TACTICS...................

Forget about "anti-Iran Israel-sympathizers". Just discuss the tactics. Of course if you can share some of your knowledge! Are you afraid others could learn from you?

You remind me of my Jewish-Iranian friend at college. During the Nowruz time he would go and make arrangements for the following to be printed in the college newspaper (more or less): "The Chabad Jewish Student Club wishes all the Persians a very happy Nowruz" but then in the private he would say: "Oh all the Iranians are so backward-thinking! There is not even a single good Iranian in this world. etc. etc."

BTW, why does the U.S. give these terrorists visas?

Why don't they include that language in the sanctions?  Plus, shouldn't these terrorists be on the "no fly" list?  Aren't they connected to the Lebanese Hezbollah and other organizations that are on the U.S. terrorist list?  Why are they allowed in U.S. airspace? 

Pray to see him, his 4 other

Pray to see him, his 4 other brothers and the rest of their criminal regime on trial and later in prison for the rest of their miserable lives for their serial killings and tortures + all their crimes against humanity!!! Please envisage that everyday until it becomes reality God willingly !!

So what are some of the techniques being employed...

by IRI supporters on this site:

Calling anyone who criticizes the IRI an " anti-Iran Israel-sympathizers."

Listen buddy, these techniques are old.  Creating a foreign enemy, real or imaginary, by dictatorships and trying to connect the opposition to that enemy is the oldest trick in the book.   Don't feel so smart and don't think that you have invented it.  Every dictatorship in the history of human civilization has used it.  When Khomeini came into the scene back in 1978, the Shah said that he was a foreign agent and his handler was an Egyptian army officer.  We've been there before.  Give it up.

So what are some of the techniques being employed...

So what are some of the techniques being employed by anti-Iran Israel-sympathizers on this site? I don't know you are the experts:

Swarming Tactics and drowning out the opposition!

Smear Tactics and Personal Attacks and Name-Calling and Belitteling your opponents' viewpoint etc.!

Character Assassination!

Perception Manipulation!

Maintain maximum exposure of your message to obtain objectives!

Reinforce the comments of your pals who are in the same camp!

Ignore opponents' comments which poke a hole in your arguments! Or even Silent Treatment!

But I consider this name-calling really the lowest form!

You can add to this list!

Once a "Ham-Mall" always a "Ham-Mall"!

Even with a double-breasted pinstripe suit and a Ph.D. in math from Berkeley which by the way was subsidized by the good old government of the Shah of Iran in the 70's!

As Mahmoudg said it correctly, the only way out of the current Iranian quagmire is a massive surgical bombing by US/Israel and if in the process 5 to 10 million elements of HezDollah suddenly disappear we would very comfortably say, so what!?

azadi5, here's an excellent article on Larijani brothers & co.

There are five brothers. Larijani says so at the beginning of the video. This article on their 'dynasty' was published shortly after Sadegh became head of the judiciary last year. The actual discussion of the Larijanis begins after the several paragraph intro:

//www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tehranbureau/2009/08/nepotism-the-larijani-dynasty.html

(has very funny Kowsar cartoon on them too btw...)

DA

Briefly, scary.

@ Immortal Guard

"I think that the Jews at large should brace themselves for more open discussions in future about their role in the history of Europe in the first half of 20th century."

Can you translate it into meaningful language for Europeans?

OZ

Exactly my point then the American media should not display so much sensitivity when the number of victims is being questioned. The American moderators kind of become flustered, disconcerted or even outraged when it comes to discussing the Holocaust. It is as if this matter is a taboo which should not be questioned. By acting this way they do a disservice to the Jews. I know for the survivors of the Holocaust (whose numbers are dwindling) and their offspring this issue can be quite painful. It is like opening an old wound. But for the public at large and for future generations it would be a mistake to treat this subject as a taboo above and beyond any research. Plus the motto of this site is "Nothing is sacred"! Sometimes healing takes place by confronting the issues at hand head on.

More importantly I think the reason Ahmadinejad broached this sensitive issue in the first place was indeed to lend legitimacy to broader questioning and critical discussion of this subject matter which has for so long been regarded as untouchable and anybody discussing it in a non-conformist manner has been treated as a heretic and/or has been subjected to character assassination and has been unscrupulously painted over as being a Skinhead or a Neo-Nazi or a Muslim Radical. Most people out of fear of reprisals simply decide to forgo even expressing their opinion on this issue.

The growing settlements will in the long run only prove to be more of an irritant for Israel since the Palestinians will come to question Israel's good faith in coming to terms with them.

I think that the Jews at large should brace themselves for more open discussions in future about their role in the history of Europe in the first half of 20th century. Of course the American media seem to be trying their best in order to stem the tide of such critical analysis of sensitive issues but the trend seems to have already started!

Rea, absolutely

Mengele was one of the most politest people around before cutting off breast-feeding breasts. 

I never trust the ultra-polite nor the popular, but the worst are the "nice".

"The shorter the life, the longer the death."

"لعنت بر آن بیلی که باغ ننتنو آبیاری کرده"

This thief of a thug of a murderous maniac, to put it mildly, is also one or all of the following: pathologically psychotic, illiterate, plainly insane.

Just as an example, one of the simpler ones: he says

there is no theocracy in Iran, but " all you are not allowed to do is to offend Islam."

These people are so totally insane!!! Except when it comes to filling their Islamic pockets.

"The shorter the life, the longer the death."

Sometimes I wish I believed in cursing!

جواتی دوباره کت شلوار خریده و راهی نیویورک شده

Fact Remains that Charlie Rose

and the rest of the liberal news media in the west sell their soul to IR money - endorse and give air time to animals like Larijani.   The fact that this guy represents himself as, and is introduced by Rose as the head of Iranian Human Rights Organization is the biggest irony which makes everything else irrelevant. 

Immortal Guard

You bring up interesting points, but if you believe 'if one person perished... then that is holocaust,' then
why do you immediately follow it with the quantitative argument that
'The extent of the Holocaust with respect to loss of human life has been
questioned by various scholars and politicians?' What does it matter
then? If the number is 6 million Jews or 3, 2... Does that change the
dynamic of the disussion?

This injection of question mark about the number
of Jewish victims, in my opinion, becomes a tool to furtively deny the
suffering of many people.

I agree with the assessment that Israel used the holocaust as a pretext
to justify what they've been doing to Palestinians. But I think
Ahmadinejad's holocaust discussions is a disservice to the Palestinians'
legitimate struggle by diverting the attention from the real issues,
such as the constantly growing settlements.