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The Price of Peace
14-Oct-2010
The state of Israel, formed in 1948, has led a tumultuous existence since its birth. While achieving impressive scientific and industrial feats, its political and sovereign societal stance has been based on a claimed secular democracy that is ironically based on strong religious notions, non-inclusive, paranoid (for historical reasons that are nevertheless fading away) and ineffective structures, ideas, and governing policies. The Israeli democracy does not uniformly apply to its Arab citizens residing within the pre-1967 borders, the misplaced refugees and the populations under its occupation since 1967, the sum of which may closely equal or exceed the “Jewish” population of Israel and the Occupied Territories. The closest parallel to this is the selective pseudo-democracy practiced by the former apartheid Government of South Africa which eventually collapsed.
Ignoring any moral judgment on the Israeli methodology and focusing on the realities of the situation and the sustainability of such governance, it is reasonable to regard Israel, as an independent entity, a failed state since it is simply unable to exist on its own. Yet Israel continues to exist and thrive and exercise military (strategic and tactical) dominance over its neighbors. We argue that this existence is wholly or in large part based on an extensive amount of US financial (direct and indirect) aid and assistance to the state of Israel under the pretext of protecting Israel from enemies and those seeking its annihilation (either politically or militarily). As such peace is detrimental to the existence of Israel as the primary donor (the United States) will be hard pressed by its internal politics to justify its vast quantity of aid in a peaceful environment given its own internal financial and economic disarray. In simple terms, Israel stands to lose significant financial benefits should peace take hold. We characterize Israel as an essentially failed state as it is unable to sustain itself in a peaceful environment and without significant outside assistance. As such, peace is not in the interest of Israel.
The characterization of Israel’s structures, ideas, and governing policies as ineffective is due to the fact that it has been unable to formulate an existence in over 60 years of statehood that is independent of massive explicit and direct outside financial and military support. It has not been able to overcome existential challenges without such support and provide its citizens with reasonable long-term security and peace. In fact, such challenges have exacerbated from relatively manageable conventional military threats in 1967 and 1973 to its current and biggest self-proclaimed existential challenge of facing nuclear threats in the 2000s and the possibility of mutually assured destruction. Random airplane hijackings and Olympic Village attacks have become missile-armed adversaries on its borders able to directly threaten its population centers. Submissive and demoralized generations of refugees misplaced in 1948 and years thereafter have been replaced with even larger numbers of young, angry and non-compromising children of refugee camps and occupation zones that are far more radical than Yasser Arafat’s old PLO and the residents of Sabra and Shatila. None of these developments were considerations in the past and they constitute significant increases in the costs of sustaining Israel. Militarily, today Israel is better armed and equipped as it has ever been, in fact far better conventionally armed than any of its adversaries, capped with a probable strategic nuclear arsenal of up to 200 warheads. Yet it is as unsustainable as ever, and ever more dependent on outside support.
The title of this article, “Peace is Detrimental to Israel” may have been alternately written as “Why it is unlikely that Israel will Survive In Its Current Form”. The latter, however, implies a possibility of an evolution of the existing governance structures, ideas and policies into a new set of sustainable structures, ideas and policies, whereas the current title, should peace prevail, pervades a sense of undesirable and impending change based on devolution combined with shock and awe. The latter, can also be applied to most countries, societies and government, which, based on differing paces, do evolve and change over time or at least show willingness to do so. The former generally applies to entities that are unable to self-sustain while absorbing change and rely on external forces for their sustenance. Such entities do not see the need for a behavior change as long as the external support is present without a quid pro quo.
In the case of Israel, self-sustenance is nuanced not just by the “natural” difficulties of existence any society would face, but also resistance to forces that actively and explicitly seek to change its current order if not to eradicate it outright. As such, we believe that the state of Israel in its current form, would collapse in a peaceful environment based on its inability to independently sustain itself after the external forces that directly and indirectly contribute to its existence lose their ability to sustain such support. This dependency sustenance has been the core of Israeli policies and efforts and the core contributor to its operational calculus vis-à-vis regional geographic, political, societal, and basic human challenges. Israel was created with “outside” help, has continued to exist based on “outside” help and cannot continue to do so without such help. Peace will dramatically reduce this “outside” help and cause the collapse of the state of Israel. Once the so-called humanitarian threats and genocidal enemies give way to peace, and on a purely economic basis, the costs of the outside support required to effectively deal with Israel’s issues do not seem sustainable in a global multi-polar world order that is in the process of replacing one based on a singular super-power.
In the new world order and after the economic disasters of 2009, the “outside” ability to sustain is decreasing while the cost of such sustenance is increasing. During the 60 years of 1948-2008, this equation was positive to the benefit of such sustenance. During this period, the booming economies of the West, specifically that of the United States allowed for such support. The estimates for the total amount of US aid to Israel since 1948 by Israeli-friendly sources is well over $120 Billion, with the annual figure exceeding the billion mark beginning in 1974 (including but not limited to outright financial aid, military aid, partnerships, [possibly un-repaid] loans and loan guarantees, and myriads of other vehicles designed for such activity) . In addition, other sources estimate the interest paid on this aid to be upwards of $50 Billion. These figures are not adjusted for the present value of the aid in the past 60 years (i.e. $100 Million in 1950 was worth far more than today’s $100 Million) nor do they include the private funds collected from various US political and religious groups destined for Israel. A comprehensive estimate in 2002 by a Washington-based economist puts the complete cost of Israeli support to the US at $1.6 Trillion only since 1973. Therefore the total cost to the US from 1948 to 2010 can be extrapolated to be around $2 Trillion in today’s (2010) dollars, with the costs increasing annually. While this figure may be disputable (although not by much), it is indisputable that Israel is the largest foreign recipient of US funds and such numbers are harder and harder to sustain in an era where as of June 6, 2010, the US Budget deficit is slightly over $13 Trillion.
As a comparison, the current US budget deficit on a per-US-resident (population of 308 million) basis is $42,300 whereas the $2 Trillion spent on Israel, on a per-Jewish-citizen basis (using the 5 million non-Arab population figure) is $400,000. So the money the US has spent since 1948 on every Israeli citizen is almost ten times as much as each and every American currently owes. We have not discussed and certainly do not deny US aid to Arab and other countries (much smaller than the aid to Israel) and have focused solely on Israel, at that is the topic of this writing. Even if we use lower figures than the $2 Trillion amount, the disparity between these two metrics is quite significant and noteworthy.
As pointed out earlier, this massive support has yet to produce a self-sustaining, peaceful country. Controversy surrounds any and every action of the Israeli Government. From suppressing occupied peoples for decades to the building of new settlements to bulldozing the homes of innocent people in already dilapidated, highly dense and by all accounts squalid areas, the state of Israel has produced more enemies over the years than friends. This is generally not a characteristic of a long-term, truly independent, self sustaining state.
Given that the US is in a dire financial situation and that it dangerously came close to a total collapse of its financial system (and quite possibly the global financial system) in 2009 and with a rapidly increasing deficit of over $130 Trillion, the sustenance of Israel becomes more and more expensive as time goes on. The cost to the US taxpayer will increase while the taxpayer is mired in debt, in an uncertain economic future and in receipt of less government services. The US ability to sustain Israel is decreasing while Israel does not seem concerned about the loss or possible reduction of this support. That again, is not the sign of a long-term self-sustaining state.
Using a scientific analogy, the creation of Israel has been the primary source of equilibrium disturbance in the Middle East since 1948.
“In chemistry, Le Châtelier's principle, also called the Chatelier's principle, can be used to predict the effect of a change in conditions on a chemical equilibrium.”
“This principle has a variety of names, depending upon the discipline using it……It is common to take Le Châtelier's principle to be a more general observation, roughly stated:
Any change in status quo prompts an opposing reaction in the responding system.”
The creation of Israel was a major change in the status quo of the Middle East over 60 years ago. An artificial state was carved out of an un-willing and hostile population by force. This change prompted an opposing reaction in the region that has been growing and getting stronger in its threatening posture to Israel ever since. The state of Israel has not been able to absorb or neutralize this reaction, by either multiple violent methods, despite multiple attempts, and despite receiving $2 Trillion in outside aid since its birth. Given that the outside aid is not sustainable long term and in a peaceful environment, and the forces trying to restore the “equilibrium” in the region have become only stronger, it is highly unlikely that Israel will be interested in peace as it is unable to survive in its current form and without significant outside aid.
Furthermore, in a peaceful environment, an Israeli “democracy” would have to either relinquish the occupied territories and concede to a Palestinian state, or absorb them all into a greater Israel and grant citizenship to all their residents, overwhelmingly Arabs. Neither of these scenarios is desirable as the first option conflicts with the current (and long term) Israeli strategy of changing the facts on the ground and expanded settlement activity, and the second, will create an Arab majority, which in a true democracy, would erode the “Jewishness” of Israel. A third option, the best and safest so far, is to keep an on-going conflict with occasional uprisings and military adventures. And use that as a pretext for ongoing and increasing financial receipts from an American electorate conditioned for exactly this purpose.
Israel is forced to show that it is interested in making peace and participate in related meetings and conferences, while on the ground and in reality, it is taking steps on a daily basis to erode peace and any chance thereof. Peace is detrimental to the existence of the State of Israel, and like any other entity, interested in survival, it will actively work to avoid peace and its potential internal collapse.
NOTES
[1] Multiple web-based sources but primarily the website for the Jewish Virtual Library //www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/index.html and the following Israeli Aid calculations: //www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Isr... and //www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Isr...
[2] //www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/cost_of_israe...
[3] //www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.htm...
[4] US Debt Clock: //www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
[5] Ibid
[6] //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Chatelier%27s_prin...
[7] Ibid
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Amir ..Norooz....Arab
by Simorgh5555 on Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:26 AM PDTYou said, in relation to Russia's theft of Iran:
"Unfortunately, the stupidity and weakness of some kings caused those
losses and they signed agreement that Iran has to live with them"
By that rational, the Palestinian leadership, weak or corrupt agreed to recognize Israel and renounce violence as part of the 1994 Oslo agreement.
This means your war with Israel is over since your Arab brethren agreed to recognise it.
So, as Propher, asks what is your beef with Israel.
If not, I wil STILL ask you the question, my Arab friend:
"What are you going to do about Rusian aggression and theft of Iranian land?"
Simorgh Jan
by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:21 AM PDTWho is Ehsan Karimi? I do not know much about this person and am curious, Will you please bring me up to date. Just a paragraph with your take on him and a link. Thank you my friend.
Amir - Norooz
by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:19 AM PDTWhat is it that you want? You managed to make so many irrelevant remarks that within days you got a reputations of being a pan Arabist. This is an Iranian web site. Not a pan Arab one. Do you really think there will be any sympathy for you
Iranians Muslims or not are Iranian. It is only a handful of misguided honorary Arabs who put the other stuff before Iran. So do yourself a favor and cut your losses. You may want to actually read some of the remarks and learn something from them.
Ehsan..Norooz...Arabi
by Simorgh5555 on Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:10 AM PDTI said answer my question. You are Iranian, aren't you? Don't you think that reclaiming Iranian land from Russia is just as important as reclaiming Palestinian land?
Ehsan, the more you speak the more the Islamist Pan Arab nationalist within you is becoming apparent.
Ehsan. you can re-invent yourself all you like but deep down you are an apologist for anti-semetic Pan Arab Islamist terror. Change your name but we know an honoury Arab when we see one.
Rozie_Gillani
by norooz on Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:06 AM PDTThis blog is about Israel. We are discussing this disgusted state. That is you who is diverting the subject to Iran.
I answered your question about Russia. Go back and read my comments.
Sargord the phoney American
by Simorgh5555 on Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:02 AM PDT"Native son of America". Who? You with your Azari mother and Iranian father?
You are a second generation American so please stop acting like a WASPY native.
Supporter of a terrorist regime which is anti-American to the core? More likely.
Ehsan Arabi...er...Karimi
by Simorgh5555 on Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:59 AM PDTWa Salam -Alekumb brother Ehsan.
Amir...Norooz....Ehasan Arabi...or whatever your name is.
Answer my question!
You want to take arms against Israel because it has stolen land and is an aggressive country.
The fact that Palestine and Israel are not my country is precisely the point I am making.
You feel it is worth taking up arms against Israel because of its perceived aggression and theft of land.
I'll ask you again. Why don't you take arms against Russia for stealing Iranian land, imposing ufair treaties, emposing embargos and coercive commercial tarrifs? Why don't you do confront Russia's recent aggression steming from the invasion of Afhanistam, Chechnya, the support of Serb nationalists in their ethnic cleansing of Muslism and most recently the invasion of Georgia?.
On the other hand I put Iran's inerest FIRST because unlike you I am not an honoury Arab
I'll ask you again: What are you going to address Russia's defiance of international law and invasion and theft of Iranian territory?
Until then Allaho-o Masale-Allah.
thanks "sargord pirooz"
by Roozbeh_Gilani on Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:00 AM PDTFor proving my point, just as I wanted. :)
In another blog, I wrote about the "intellectally challlenged" agents of the islamist regime on this site. Thanks for proving that point too!
BTW, your infantile, frustrated personal attacks will be ignored as always.
"Personal business must yield to collective interest."
When I see "Israel and
by Sargord Pirouz on Sun Oct 17, 2010 09:51 AM PDTWhen I see "Israel and Palestine has nothing to do with Iran," it only serves to remind me how out of touch and detached from the Meehan you exiles have become over the last 30 years.
Hello! It's no longer 1975!
Israel-Palistine conflict has nothing to do with Iran & Iranians
by Roozbeh_Gilani on Sun Oct 17, 2010 09:31 AM PDTIt is being used by the islamist regime to divert attention from their own criminal terroristic behaviour both at home and abroad.
and this poorly written "article" should come with following disclaimer/warning:
"sponsored and funded by the ministry of information of Islamist republic of Iran"
"Personal business must yield to collective interest."
loveofliberty
by norooz on Sun Oct 17, 2010 09:49 AM PDTYou wrote, Clearly, I think, the Arab leadership-through Mohammad Amin al-Husayni-in that day had no desire to divide the mandate up with...well...Jews.
I think Mohammad Amin al-Husayni chose rather poorly...to say the least.
The majority Muslims, minority Christians and Jews lived there in peace for many years. It was the Zionist ideas that turned it into what you see today. What Mohammad Amin did with respect to defending Palestine, was what the Gajar should have done with respect to defending Iran's territories. But due to your ill thinking you make contradictions and call it logic. This Zionist Joojeh simorgh is making the same foolish arguments.
joojeh simorgh and veiled
by norooz on Sun Oct 17, 2010 09:09 AM PDTI have given plenty of logical answers to your questions and i knew soon due to lack of reasoning you will divert that to IRI crimes. The subject here is Israel not Iran. Iranians will solve their internal problems by themselves and don't need you Zionists or the neocons opinions. Change of name shows how some people cannot take the truth in my comments and block me yet again. You two fools realizing that doesn't make you a genius, that was my intention to keep it obvious so that you two clowns can get it.
You wrote,
1) Please don#t avoid my point about Russia. WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT RUSSIA WHO HAVE STOLLEN LAND FROM US?
Are you joojeh Zionist saying the Jews owned Russia too back then and Russia should be given back to Israel? or are you speaking on behalf of Iranians again?
Unfortunately, the stupidity and weakness of some kings caused those losses and they signed agreement that Iran has to live with them. Unlike you Zionist and neocons who don't live up to your agreements, Iranians do.
I tell you, it is understandable why many think wiping Israel Zionists off the map is the best solution to get rid of this cancer and bring peace to ME.
Simorgh5555,
by LoverOfLiberty on Sun Oct 17, 2010 05:50 AM PDTSimorgh5555, thank you for providing a much more balanced analysis of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Now, at least from my perspective, if only the Arab leadership during the time of the Mandate was more willing to compromise with regards to a two-state solution back then perhaps, just perhaps, we wouldn't be having this discussion today.
But, I guess it was more important to Mohammad Amin al-Husayni and others of his ilk that Arabs have that land all to themselves...as is infered when their only official response to the UN's attempt at bringing the Arabs and Jews together to divide the land between them through the UN in 1948 was the following document:
//domino.un.org/pdfs/AAC216.pdf
Clearly, I think, the Arab leadership-through Mohammad Amin al-Husayni-in that day had no desire to divide the mandate up with...well...Jews.
And now, sixty plus years later, what do the Palestinians have to show for their leader taking such a position?
I think Mohammad Amin al-Husayni chose rather poorly...to say the least.
New AmirNoroz
by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on Sun Oct 17, 2010 04:38 AM PDTThis AmirKabir == Norooz is not even good at hiding his new identity. Now I know that Islamists are getting desperate. Sending in the dregs of the Islamist barrel. I guess IRI spent all its money in Lebanon on Hizbollah. Now lacks money to hire better groupies than AmirNoroz.
Amir Kabir ak.a.Norooz
by Simorgh5555 on Sun Oct 17, 2010 01:14 AM PDTHa, Ha! You re-invent yourself more times than Madonna!
I guess you have gotten the hint that you are an insul to Amir Kabir and every thing he stood for.
1) Please don#t avoid my point about Russia. WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT RUSSIA WHO HAVE STOLLEN LAND FROM US?
2) Military action against the ISLAMIC REPUBLIC and not Iran. PLEASE SUPPORT MILITARY ACTION AGAINST THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC. Let the Basijis and the Republican Guards die. I couln't care less one bit. They are not Iranian and they are forces of occupation.
Please answer my question about how you are going to address the historical injusties caused to us about RUSSIA. Do you want me to point it out on the map for you?
joojeh simorgh
by norooz on Sat Oct 16, 2010 08:26 PM PDTYou wrote, By the way I am not Jewish.
Who said you are Jewish? You are a Zionist.
Then you wrote, Israel shares the same values with Iran.
Go fool yourself joojeh. Iranians share none of your values with you Zionists.
God bless Iran. God bless Israel. hey, what happened to Please support military action against Iran. which one is it? God bless or military actions? You are lost joojeh!!!
A Star is Born
by Mola Nasredeen on Sat Oct 16, 2010 03:04 PM PDTA new Zionist groupie is born this time under the name of 'simorgh' the protector of the Zion, the home land of the Chosen People (taken by terror, destruction and genocide of the natives). This Zionist groupie is 6 weeks and 1 day old in his new reincarnation. In his blog he encourages the death and executions of members of another government (IRI). Our message to him is:
"Stick around and we will teach you how to talk, how to behave and how to discuss matters related to Iran and the rest of humanity". You've outed yourself by your hateful, warmongering comments on this site.
Responses
by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on Sat Oct 16, 2010 01:11 PM PDTSimorgh Jan: Very good points as usual. I really like the "Honorary Arab" !! A very good description of IRI hard core Islamists. This is a phrase we should use more. These bone heads do not care what Arabs do. Just because they are Muslims they get a pass. Of course we don't get the same treatment from the Tazi do we.
I also very much like your remark on Russia and what is did to Iran. Russia has taken more from Iran than any nation in recent history. If not for them Iran would be twice the size it is now. I for one will never forget this. Israel on the other hand has not taken one inch of Iran; nor do they claim any of our nation.
Amirkabir: You asked this from Simorgh but I will also respond. You wouldn't be asking this question if Palestinians were slaughtering Israelis, would you?
Honestly I would still have the same position. I do not want to get Iran involved. The truth is that the Palestinian Israeli fight is not ours. I know it is unfair what is happening to the Palestinians. But I am not going to put them ahead of Iran; specially since they fought for Saddam. I mean why should Iran side with people who wanted to see us all dead or slaves. Are we insane. You do not have a good knowledge of history. This was evident with your remark on the 80 planes. So maybe you need to read how the Pals took Saddam's side. Dude they hate us! What part of they hate us don't you get? Put Iran first or give up being Iranian and become an Arab. You are most of the way there already!
Well, Amir Kabir
by Simorgh5555 on Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:34 PM PDTYou have the intellectual capacity of knat as well as a Jew hater.
The estanlishment of the state of Israel was not related to the holocaust and neither is it argued that the Palestinians were required to aussage the suffering of the European persecution. Please try and udnerstand history from a different perspective other than that of your beloved idol Mahmoud Antarinejad.
If you know anything about the history of Palestine, which you patently do not - you will know that Jews never stopped living in Palestine, although a large number of them were driven out as a result of countless invaders from the Roamns, Greeks, the Arab Caliphs and the Ottoman Empire. Migration in the Holy Land continued and gradually increased in relative to the persecution JEws were sufffering. When Jews settled the indigenous Muslim population benefited from their wealth, know-how and skills they brought from their adopted countries. It was not until the first half of the twentieth century when Jewish migration was at its peak when violence broke out and between the two populations.There is historical evidence and propery deeds which have been preserved to this day that shows land was purchased by Jews legally. This is something which the Islamist Jewhater in you can never accept. Neither can you accept that many houses which Palestinians live in East Jersusalem were not only owned by Jews but were built by them!
The war of independence was fought fairly with the Jews against seven Arab countries and as a result that is how the Paestinians became dispossessed. I did not argue that it was rgiht - indeed it is a tragedy but to deny Jews the rigjht to re-settle in their hisotrical homeland is racist and a crime against humanity. The transfer of Palestinian, some forced and some voluntary was compensated by the exile of Jews from Arab countries who were living under the Dhimmi.
If your Arab brethren in Lebanon and Egypt - Yes you ara an honoury Arab, Amir - want to cage Palestinians in refugee camps and force them to live like animals in tents then that it shows you have no humanity in you.
Finally, you say that you criticise Russia for invading Afghanistan but what about the killing of Muslim Chechnyans and the stealing of Iranian territory such as Azarbaijanduring the reign of the Qajars. Yes, you may do lip service to criticise Russia but why don't you bear arms against them? Why don't you want to send troops over to the border of Ruussia and try to stop them in the same way you want to stop Zionists?
Do you want to know the reason why? 1) Ruussians aren't Jews 2) You are a low life Arab whore of the Russians who despite having in history killed Muslims, invaded Iran, imposed unfair treaties, and stollen our territory (Of course, you would know that, you are Amir Kabir, aren't you?) you do nothign about it! is it because you need their crappy technology? Their crappy Topolov airplanes whcich they sell to you at extorionate prices? Do you need them to veto sanctions for you in the UN? Hah! Go fight Russia IF YOU DARE, CHICKEN!
By the way I am not Jewish and never visited Israel but Israel shares the same values as Iranians and a common enemy: political Islam. Despite Israel's bad policy decisions, I give unconditional support to its contineud existence otherwise if Israel is destroyed then freedom loving Iranians can say goodby to liberaing Iran from the Islamists forever!
God bless Iran. God bless Israel.
Excellent analysis
by Mola Nasredeen on Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:07 PM PDTNo matter how much Joojeh (simorgh) Zionists scream, kick and yell on IC. The whole world is on the side of JUSTICE.
Joojeh simorgh
by AmirKabir on Sat Oct 16, 2010 11:59 AM PDTYes, I feel the same about Russia to Afghanistan and others. as i wrote before any country that does the same to another country or population.
So you decided to waste your mind and not your time?
You wrote, Supposing every thing you say about Israel is right, why do you care so much about what goes on in Israel and Palestine?
You wouldn't be asking this question if Palestinians were slaughtering Israelis, would you? Then you wanted me to care, right?
Amir Kabir
by Simorgh5555 on Sat Oct 16, 2010 11:45 AM PDTI won't waste my time arguing your ridiculous arguemtns against the finding of Israel. You are an Islamist and anti-Semite but can may I ask you two questions?
Supposing every thing you say about Israel is right, why do you care so much about what goes on in Israel and Palestine?
Do you feel the same hatred towards Russia, and if not, why not?
Zionist joojeh simorgh
by AmirKabir on Sat Oct 16, 2010 11:44 AM PDTThe Jews decided for thousands of years to live in Europe and rest of the world without any real interest in Palestine. Whether they were in Palestine a long time ago or not doesn't give them the right to go back and slaughter innocent people who have been living there continuously since the same time you claim your people were. Any sound minded, law abiding person will agree that those who never left have much more rights that those who did, specially when they are recognised sovereign country and nation and people have the proof of ownership by any common international and domestic laws.
Then comes the problem with the way Israelis acquired those lands. Not through peaceful means, but by force of invitation and mass killings of a population. All because the Germans did the same to them. So why the Palestinians should pay for the crimes of the Germans? Is that what your Torah teaches? Or the Zionists are just using a different interpretation of Torah to achieve their own selfish ideas in the name of serving the Jews? The goal was not just to have a place to call Israel. They did achieved that after the massacre they committed. As you can see, since then they have continued their genocides for decades after breaking agreement after agreement and expanding and destroying and killing more. so the claim that they just want a place call Israel and be recognized is pure bullshit according to their actions.
I am not afraid to tell what I think about America. I already told you. That is the truth and American herself knows. If you think by asking such question you can shut me up, you are wrong, joojeh simorgh.
Just as the Indians and Blacks and others didn't have to be treated that way by white America and Europeans, Jews shouldn't have been treated that way by Germans and the Palestinians by Jews and etc. But if the Zionists insist in continuing on the same path, they must be dealt with swiftly by the international community before they destroy more lives and countries. The same goes with America, and any other country that uses one thing or another as excuse and do injustice.
Your responses are simple
by Simorgh5555 on Sat Oct 16, 2010 02:11 AM PDTYour responses are simple sound bites: "Israel is genocidal" "Israel is illegitimate".YAWN. Answer my questions. No osund bites. Let me hear your reasoning.
1) Do you deny the Jewish connection to Palestine nottwithstanding whether you agree with its policies?
2) Do you deny the jewish connection to the word "Palestine"?
2) If you deny the existence of Jews to live on or worhsip on their Biblical land which has even been given legtimacy by the Koran then why do you not deny Muslims the right to go to pilgrimages in Mecca and Medina?
3) Can the Jews of Arabia return to Mecca and Medina? Do a genealogy test to trace Jews of Meccan descent which were executed or exiled by the prophet Mohammed.
4) Why do you live in America if you admit it was stollen and why do you accept its existance?
5) If Palestinians and their descendants have th right to return then what will be the position of the Jews from Arab and even Iranian descent?
ANSWER THE QUESTIONS WITH REASON.
"Israel is genocidal and illegitimate" says Amir Phoney. Amir your almighty Allah has given you intelligence to be able to think for yourself. Please do not let the Islamic Republic to control your mental faculties.
Thank You AmirKabir!
by Afshin Ehx on Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:21 PM PDTYour Response to Simorgh was right on the target. Your phrase "Zionist joojeh simorgh" is hilarious. I laughed out loud.
Zionist joojeh simorgh
by AmirKabir on Fri Oct 15, 2010 08:14 PM PDTYou wrote, Any country including Israel is capable of immoral policies and should be subject to criticism
I totally agree and I do so.
but what is unacceptable is to deny the legitimacy of Israel.
I totally disagree because it has been acquired illegitimately.
The creation of Israel is in fact more just than the creation of America, Australia and New Zealand where white European settlers either subjugated the entire population and wiped out their history in order to create colonies, discover gold, wealth and spices.
I totally disagree. Creation of Israel is just as unjust as the creation of America.
At least the creation of Israel was not spawned out of white European greed like the conquest of Columbus in 1492.
Greed or not, the results are the same, if not worse.
The creation of Israel was noble and many of the settlers or sabras came straight out of the concentration camps in Europe and men, women and children came in ships because they had no where else on earth to go.
It wasn't noble. It was wrong, illegal and genocidal.
So why don't you call the USA the White Occupying Regime of the native Americas in the same way you call Israel 'Zionists?'?
I totally agree and I do call them the same. Frankly that is one of the bonding agents between Israel and US. They share the same background.
In establishing Israel the early Zionists and the Arabs both have blood on their hands but this is part of the tragedy.
I totally disagree. The Zionists and their counter parts have the blood of innocent Palestinians and others on their hands for starting the invasion and occupation.
Taking sides is not going to help anyone.
It will if the region is united and did the right thing.
Thank you Simorgh
by Artificial Intelligence on Fri Oct 15, 2010 06:17 PM PDTVery well reasoned and balanced response to this one sided and ignorant analysis. By the way, the claim that Israel would not survive without US aid is absolute fantasy not even worth responding to. It may have been ture during specific periods like the Yum Kippur war but that is the extent of it. Only specific periods.
Asgharagha - Israel/Palestine
by Simorgh5555 on Fri Oct 15, 2010 05:39 PM PDTAgain, another article regarding the rights and wrongs of Israel on an Iranian website. I wonder if you really believe that there are only three countries on the earth - Iran, Israel and America whilst the rest of it is a mass of wildernes. Having said that your article is well written and provides food for thought regardless of whether it is appropriate mattaer for discussion on this forum.
You mention that Israel was an artificial creation carved out from someone else's land. However, you seem to forget that many of the Arab counries surrounding Israel such as Lebanon, Iraq and the Gulf Arab states were also artificial creationscreated by the British.
The entire West Bank including Jerusalem was actually part of Jordan (before that the Ottoman Empire)and for many years the Hashemite Kingdom even up to relatively recently made claims to the territory. One could argue that Palestinian nationalism and the limited autonomy which the Palestinians exercise in the West Bank and Gaza have directly come about as a result of the establishment of Israel.
Your article gives the impression that a Jewish state was arbitarily imposed on the Palestinians but you forget that when the British ceased the UN gave the Arabs control of the vast majority of then Palestine which as a result of war and forced evictions they lost huge chunks of real estate
By concentrating exclusively on the plight of the Palestinians you also overlook the tragic history of the Jews and their indisputable cultural and religious connection to the land.Youwould not deny the right of Muslims to live and worship in Mecca and Medina so why can't the same right be extended to Jews? Does this small strip of land which doesn't even make up to 10 percent of the Middle East become such an issue for Iranians is beyond me. Even the Koran mentions the children of Israel and mentions that the children of Israel will return to Israel and no way does it mention the word 'Palestine'. So from even a Muslim perspective Israel has legitimacy. The word 'Palestine' itself was given by the Romans to the land to insult the Jewish population who fought against the Philistines and which the word 'Palestine' comes from.
Not all land was confiscated by Jews and not all Palestinains were driven out. Jewish migration to Palestine began centuries ago and accelrated towards the end of the nineteenth century and twentieth century as a result of the progroms and persecution in Europe, Russia and the baltic states. Some land even in Arab East Jersulame were actually Jewish owned and paid for in the same way Palestinians claim to have lands in Israel proper. The creation of a Jewish state and sadly conflict with its Arab population was sadly inevitable but such is the tragic history of the two peoples who share a legitimate claim to the same land.
Any country including Israel is capable of immoral polcies and should be subject to criticism but what is unacceptable is to deny the legitimacy of Israel. The creation of Israel is infact more just than the creation of America, Australia and New Zealand where white european settlers either subjugated the entire population and wiped out their history in order to create colonies, discover gold, wealth and spices. At least the creation of Israel was not spawned out of white European greed like the conquest of Columbus in 1492. The creation of Israel was noble and many of the settlers or sabras came straight out of the concentration camps in Europe and men, women and children came in ships because they had no where else on earth to go. So why don't you call the USA the White Occupying Regime of the native Americas in the same way you call Israel 'Zionists?'? In establsihin Israel the early Zionists and the Arabs both have blood on their hands but this is part of the tragedy. Taking sides is not going to help anyone.
The refugees were created as a result of the creation of Israel but there poverty and plight has also been directly the responsibility to a large part of the surrounding Arab countries which refuses to assimilate people of their own race into their country and instead use them as perpetual pawns in a war of attrition against Israel. The total sum of money which Arabs used to fund Palestinian terror such as plane hijackings and letter bombs could have been better spent improving the conditions of the Palestinians.
Furthermroe, since no census of the Palestinian was taken before 1945 then how serious can you accept the fact that all of them including their decendants had settled there for years? There is no evidence for this but even if this were true then the right of return for Palestians and the payment of reparations for their loss must also be extended to the Sephardi Jews from Arab countries and their descendants who now live in Israel. Woudl this happen?
Thank you
by AmirKabir on Fri Oct 15, 2010 04:00 PM PDTVery accurate analysis. I totally agree.