CHARACTER

Arabic?

I didn't get that part -- but look, I'm sorry to put it this way. Somehow this is the impression I get of your messages.
As for insulting, for example, my intelligence: I was the one who said we have a cowardice problem as Iranians. Then you go on saying that those who say that have an inferiority complex. Fine, be it. But then afterwards, don't be telling me you didn't mean me. I was the one who brought the word "coward" here.
Or, you relate Mossadeq to whatever it is you're saying, nobody knows why and how! You got a beef with Mossadeq, why don't you just come out straight and say it, instead of relating the earth and the sky to the guy?
Anyway, sorry to pop your balloon, but I mean, come on...
And by the way, I actually don't read most of your messages, but where you're referring to me, I have to!
Food for thought.

Parham

You don't make sense to me. Maybe I am just not intelligent enough to grasp your writings. But most the time it is not even clear what you are saying. 

As for my opinion it is my right. Don't like it; don't read it. Besides I don't have an opinion on everything. There are tons of blogs which I do not even touch. Lots of issues where I do not get involved. 

As for "insulting your intelligence" please give me an example. There is a hard core IC group with their ideology. Anyone who so much as moves a bit off it is called an IRI supporter. Now that is insulting the intelligence of people. The crowd here wants to out "American" the Americans. You mention NIAC and they go ballistic. But they may  insult Iranians all they want. How dare I say anything that opposes them! If I do you write some Arabic stuff I have no idea what it is.

No, thank you...

... for insulting our intelligence say-in day-out 24/7 with all the messages. Baba give it a pause or something. One doesn't have to give an opinion on every single possible subject that ever comes up! A lot of these opinions are contradictory too, to the point that one thinks you're only pulling people's legs! Either that, or you have half a dozen cab-drivers with different opinions behind one handle, constantly posting!

I hate to put it to you this way peyghambar jan, but enough! As if the opinions weren't enough, now they've taken an indirect form too, without mentioning names and all, to top it all! Allahomma salle ala oon yaroo,... : )

hamsade ghadimi and Parham

Thanks for the insults. No I won't flag them I want people to see them. Although knowing the IC readers they probably approve of you both. No wonder the number of posters keeps going down. Thanks to the open minded posters. 

PS,

Being insulted by you guys is a badge of honor.

What the…

What does challenging an idiot who is insulting his own countrymen, culture and identity have to do with promoting an IRI (mozdoor) lobbyist group who are on AN’s payroll and are only promoting the Mullahs interest and NOT  the interest of Iranian people.

You might have got a few points right at start my friend. However you also have gone a bit too far by trying to connect G..z with Shigheh

Arj and others, about women's demonstration in spring of 1358

Arj wrote:"Dear Parham, I understand your frustrations! As a matter of fact my mother and sisters participated in those protests, and were not only attacked by Hezbollahis and IRI thugs, but in most part scorned and ridiculed by ordinary bystanding men! Although not all these men were supporters of IRI, yet many did not believe that these women deserve equal rights! '

I was in the same demonstrations. i never experienced any negative response from men who were not pro IRI. remember that we are talking about Tehran of 1358. a city that was used and the norm for it was bihejab women. 

In my experience only men who were pro IRI were against this demonstration. Granted that i was young and memories fade. but I just wanted to put my two cents that I have no memory of being ridiculed by ordinary Iranian men during this demonstration. Now that we are talking, I remember that there were group of women in demonstration that was heavily made up. Even some of us were surprised. In the buses which were used at he end of demonstration, the contrast between poor young pasdaran and these heavily made up women was striking. However, most of the demonstrators were progressive forces and ordinary women and I believe theses woemn only experienced opposition from pro IRI men and women. 

پرهام، ما که

پرهام، ما که شانسی‌ با پیغمبر خراسانی نداشتیم که با چادُریش داشته باشیم.

Siamack

Excellent article and agree with all your observations.

The messiah has spoken.

: )

More like "The veiled cabbie of Hicktown, Idaho" I'd say, though.

inferiority complex

This is very much true specially about the older generation. It also was a reason for the revolution. People got sick of being told they were inferior. I had a teacher who used to say "Americans never lie". 

He used to tell us how Westerners are perfect and we are inferior. How we lie; cheat and West is perfect. Backlash was "gharbzadegi" and fear of West. Neither was right. But the inferiority complex got hammered into the minds of some. They are the same people posting blogs here on "Iranians are ***". They also were the people who wanted to "get out". That is why when the revolution happened most of them packed up and left. Many already had stashed money and had property in the West. Moving for them was very natural. Instead of spending 6 months in the West they spent 12 months. All I have to say is there is no hope for them. They will pass on and new generation will replace them. Hopefully with more confidence. Meanwhile the old generation sits on their behind calling them "cowards" and doing nothing. If God forbid some people do something they are attacked. Mercilessly like NIAC is. I am thinking one reason is they challenge the idea of inferiority. How dare an Iranian lobby America? We are supposed to be grovelling not speaking! Tough not all Iranians buy inferiority.

Arj jan

I believe it's both cause and effect -- as in a vicious circle. But if you want to counter it, you have to consciously take the element (of cowardice) away at one point, or try to, so you can deviate its course. Awareness can be one first step towards such endeavor.
Regards.

Chicken and egg!

Dear Parham, I do not entirely disagree with you. Yet, I believe our views differ on the magnitude of cowardice and it's role as I rather see it as the effect than cause, while you appear to think otherwise!

P.S. No, I'm not planning to run for any office!!! :)

To Bani Ameri and Followers

It all stems from inferiority complex, something that was prevaient among people during previous regime to keep people down and insignificant and to create elusion of regime being mighty and powerful. To create mistrust and prevent people from uniting. And it worked...The generation who grew up in that time still carries the same feeling of self bashing and mistrust of other iranians.

It appears that Bani Ameri and his followers on this blog who are regugitating his nonsense suffer from the same disease.

Not so much

I have an American friend who faked having a sudden episode of intense diarrhea when he was pulled over by the police for sepeeding, and told the cop that he was going to let himself "go" any minute. He backed up his claim by passing gas in the car before the cop reached his window, so the whole car smelled when he unrolled the window!  Surprisingly, it worked and the cop let him go.  

Lying is universal. Everyone does it.  Someone below mentioned the art of "zerangi" though.  That's where we have a problem.  If someone gives us the benefit of the doubt in something, we take it as "zerangi" and will repeat the same thing with others.  That's where we need to correct ourselves a bit. 

Arj jan

I did not say anywhere that everybody voted yes to the Islamic Republic due to cowardice. But there were those (and there were many) who didn't believe one bit in that concept and yet voted "yes" precisely because of that.

Same for women's hejab. If you remember, the conversation started where we said this was now a major part of the Iranian character. If you are denying that people have become that way now throughout the years, I personally think you're in denial. You hardly ever hear "mardanegi" held up as a value any longer. It's mostly "save yourself if you can and screw the rest mentality", highly heralded too, in fact to the point that if you do otherwise you'd be crazy, and that to me is a big sign of cowardice. Heck, look at Nabavi's humor for example. It's all about that, precisely. Be a coward and you're smart. Be a coward, save yourself and you're the intelligent guy.

Maybe you would like to become a politician or something some day, I don't. I'd rather say it like it is and the way I see it. You don't see it, then I think there's something wrong in that picture, because it's to the point where it hits the eye. I don't think it can even be nodded at that such mentality has taken over our culture, today more than ever.

One Small error

Reading trough the article written by Mr Baniameri I could not help but to notice one little very big error.

In this article the writer should have exchanged all his words for“WE”s to “I” and all his words for “US”s to “ME” and then and only then it would have made some sense and his article might have had some credibility

Now do not get me wrong I am not claiming that all Iranians are saints and we do not lie or break the rules. But to generalize like this and to insul a nation, their Identity, history and culture so indiscriminately, only goes to show the shear incompetent and immaturity of the writer.

To be honest, this is noting new. I have seen many examples of such bitter old losers who attempt to shift the blame for their own failures to others and instead of looking inward for the reasons of their own failures and misery, they attempt to blame everyone but their own immaturity. To be honest I have no time or energy to engage in an argument with such hopeless idiots.

Like any other nation on this planet we have our own points of strength and flaw and that will not make us any better or worst than others.

One only needs to have a brief look at the history of the world to see how the other nations have behaved in times of war, depression and tyranny, or when they were given half a chance to do what they wanted to each other and the rest of the world.

And believe you me they were no better than us. As a few examples I can mention East India Cooperation, Holocaust, two world wars, Guantanamo bay, repressions in Gaza and West Bank and Iraq’s weapons dossier.

Not to mention the recent financial mess bought upon us by American bankers which wasn’t exactly the result of honesty, fair dealing or respect for the rules and society by the America bankers who are considered as the back bone of this economy. Or the recent scandal in UK over hacking the mobile phone messages of  a 13 years old murder victim by a private investigator who was under the payroll of one of the biggest news cooperation in UK if not the world. And the list goes on and on and on

Now we can hardly regard any of these episodes as moral, honest or within the rules

Dear amirparvizforsecularmonarchy.

As a person who has the deepest respect and admiration for Pahlavi dynasty and their achievements and as one who believes that we as a nation owe a lot to that father and son for the progress in our country and the modernization of Iran, or even for escaping from the level of suppression (Like Taleban) that mullahs wanted but could not impose upon us, because of that modernization by Pahlavi, I still can’t help but to find your approach a bit extreme and illogical. In a way your attitude reminds me of the Basijies and hezbollahis but on the other extreme end of the spectrum.  

Now don’t get me wrong. I believe the disaster of 1979 was an idiotic mistake and a suicidal act by those who participated in it. An act of stupidity for which even our generation is paying the price.

However I do not think of Shah as a saint who did not make any mistakes or did not contribute to the problem.

In fact in his own book “Answer to the History” he admits to many of these errors and accepts his share of responsibility for what happened and that is why I have such respect for him.

Furthermore, it is the democratic nature of a system that is important and not if it is called a republic, a monarchy or any other type.

Until we as a nation learn to respect (and NOT necessarily agree with) the opposition, tolerate the other point of view however wrong and incompatible with our own, give each other the right to disagree and try to resolve our differences trough debate and dialog instead of comfilict and insults, no name change can bring us democracy, prosperity or modernity.

Dear Divaneh

I should admit that once again I find myself in total agreement with you

There is a very fine line between self criticism one hand and insulting a whole nation, their culture and history on the other, and the writer in this case not only crossed that line but also have thrown up on it

Dear AE

Believe me the experiments in "Alchemy" or Chemistry put your life in danger. Specially when done in the old ways. With open flames and no appropriate safety measures. Many a chemist ended up with a missing limb or eye. Not to mention poisoning by various chemicals. Imagine Razi isolating alcohol using primitive apparatus. All it took was one false move and the thing would blow up in his face. But he did it anyway and managed to succeed.

Medical work is also very dangerous. Because it exposes the researcher to infections. Again in the old days with no knowledge of sanitation. No protective gloves or vaccines. The physicians like Abu Ali Sina were risking their lives. But he did it anyway. And not just because of curiosity but a genuine desire to help others. To heal the sick and help the needy. That is courage not driven by greed. No gold or nations to conquer. Just help people and advance medicine.

You are right about mathematics and astronomy. But I would not discount the curiosity of those pioneers. Some people like Saadi by nature like to travel. To go an explore places. Others like Hafiz prefer to stay in one place. They are both great people in their own ways.

Re cowardice

Dear Parham, I understand your frustrations! As a matter of fact my mother and sisters participated in those protests, and were not only attacked by Hezbollahis and IRI thugs, but in most part scorned and ridiculed by ordinary bystanding men! Although not all these men were supporters of IRI, yet many did not believe that these women deserve equal rights! Remember, we are not talking about Paris, but Tehran of 32 years ago! And that was supposed to be the bastion of Iranian civil society, one can only imagine the ractions in small towns or rural communities should such protests have taken place! It's a matter of fact that even at present time in the more conservative cities in Iran, say Kerman, the mere sight of a woman not clad in chador (albeit observing the minimum hejab requirements, i.e. the Islamic headscarf and Manteau) could raise some eyebrows!

I also find your account of the first IRI elections (the referundam) and people voting "yes" to the Islamic Republic out of "fear" hard to fathom. I'm not sure what you mean by "fear," but majority of Iranians supported the Islamic Repubic, although the 98.5% figure seems ridiculously exagerated! I personally was not old enough to vote and none of my family members voted in those elections (due to rejecting the basic yes/no premise of the referundam as undemocratic), but knew it well that we were an absolute minority at the time! Yes, not all but a few may have had a clear understanding of the concept of IR, but so long as Islam was a part of it, they were content.

I admit that revisiting such issues is not pleasant, but rather regrettably painful! Yet at the same time, I realize that it helps our better understanding of the Iranian social psyche of those (and perhaps to some extent, present) days!

VPK

Just a final attempt to make you understand the point I was making. Satifying your sense of curiosity if it does not put your life in danger and doesn't make you face the Unknown (with a capital U) implies a different level of courage from the kind where your curiosity is so strong that it makes you plunge into the unknown buying into all sorts of hardship and difficulties even if you aren't sure you're going to have a final reward. That's very different from visiting your neighboring countries which are fully populated or looking into the dead bodies to find out about the human anatomy.

As for CC I agree with you that he's done a lot of really evil things. Still I believe that initially when he set out to reach India by going west he displayed enormous courage. Remember at the time people thought the world was flat and that he would fall off the edge of the earth. Nevermind what he did afterwards. The same goes for the polar expaditionists who'd set out knowing that their chance of survival was very minimal.

I was hoping I wouldn't have to spell all this out, but there you go. If still don't get it, then I'd have to pass. Good luck to you too.

AE

You are welcome and I hope we will have a cordial and friendly relation on IC. Many of us here get in unnecessary personal fights. I know most people want the best. We have different approaches. Some people think we need to be more self critical. I do not disagree. However people have differences as to how to go about it. I am all for self criticism. But also for giving credit where it belongs. Anyway for now good luck and hope to read more of your posts.

AE

I have not had much interaction with you before. I did misread your name and have already made it clear. On the other hand I had plenty of interaction with Truth Seeker and AO. If you are interested you may dig them up. 

Anyway, your point seems to be that Iranians lack curiosity. My point was to explain in detail why that is not true. All my points are backed up by facts. Historical and geographical. The scientists I named are real. They may be found in any history book. The geography of Iran is also a fact not open to dispute. Together they explain why Iranians did not do much naval exploration. Nations like Spain and specially England were heavily naval based. Therefore they did a lot of sea travel. 

VPK

Thanks for clarifying.

AE

I was not impliying you are AO. I misread the name. "Truth Seeker" may say whatever he or she wants. I am not implying you had multiple IDs. If I did then I would come out and say it. In fact I put in a "PS" in my post apologizing to AO for making a mistake. 

So much for "Iranians never admit" a mistake. I just did! 

I see

Thanks Truthseeker9. Everybody is paranoid on this site. I have no reason to have another ID. Afterall i'm anonymous everyday.

This dude seems incapable of paying attention to details. I hope someone else will understand the nuance of my original question and respond accordingly.

OK

He has just changed the post that he was ble to. Unbelievable.

Anonymous Everyday

he called you Anonymous Observer. he is implying you are multiple ID for someone he has fallen out with on the site.

AE part II

What you attribute as "courage" with Columbus is greed to me. He went there not to discover new things but to find GOLD! In fact the Spanish were there for just the single reason of GREED. 

While the scientists I mentioned in my other posts did it for curiosity. That is the different of a scientist and adventurer. The former wants knowledge; the latter money and cheap thrills.

PS, apologies to AO I got you confused with AE!

VPK

Be my guest. Have your soliloquy.

Dear Arj

In the case of the hejab, there were a lot of men who didn't believe in it, but on that day where the women took to the streets, not many supported them, if at all. That's what I'm referring to. That was cowardice. The same as going out and voting "yes" to the Islamic Republic out of "fear". That was cowardice too.

Folks! Ahmadinejad never lies

He  is just economical with the truth. There is a subtle but serious difference at work here.