BEZAN BEZAN

No Fear

I had to rub my eyes a couple of times after i read your comments defending AN and his Jeghele sepahis and how you marvel about their power and specially their "maturity" in the Iranian political landscape. Comic material indeed and at best. This is the stuff that makes people laugh at comedy clubs.

Do you seriously wish to see a natural political evolution for iran? I guess you are so blinded by this desire that you are absolutey ignoring the crucial the role that people play in this evolving process could be. Your mantra seems to be To hell with what people want and what they perceive as their freedom and what they need in order to throw their support behind any government, Let us choose one that banishes stereotypes and taboos... Basically a Pie-in the _sky proposal. Well, FYI you better make damn sure that The women in your country have the right to pick and choose what they want to wear and have a say in how they want to live their lives, if you are dreaming about changings things fundamentally .

"the implications" of what this Dolat is doing IS indeed Great. yeah right. I suppose we are yet to see the fruits of ahmadi's labor? Oh that is right,, In another comment you did  say It will be another President's Lucky break for raking inn the fruits of His labor. Riiight.

remember That when a whole cast of people and not just one person speaks of The nagative aspects of this regime, That surely means that there virtually no positive elements to be talked about and negative ones basically overweight the positives. Time to deal with your fantasies and put them away for good.

My final word

We all want what is best for Iran and agree to disagree on the "how to."  The good note that I can leave this discussion on is that we all need to keep an open mind and never loose sight of morality (purely secular) and history. 

"No moral system can rest solely on authority"

Violence is wrong in any form....

You seem to ignore all the positives that i have mentioned which occured during Ahmadinejads presidency. You fail to debate the positive aspects  of this government and you try to bring up the negatives since that is the only thing you know...

Well, let me make this a quick and easy victory for you. You are right and Ahmadinejad government is far from being the one that leads us to utopia. I never claimed that he is our messiah, freaking far from it. 

I hope for a natural political evolution for our country. I don't see electing a government which allows our youths more freedom in choosing their clothes an important and groundbreaking step in the right direction. However, if a government is elected that is changing stereotypes and taboos in our political scene then that is a different story. The implications of what the current administration in Iran is doing is far greater than how high women uniform is suppose to be.

The religious oligarchy knows this very well and that is why the likes of Hashemi Rafsanjani who is the most seasoned politician of IR is the mastermind behind the green movement trying to weaken Ahmadinejad's government. Do you seriously believe the likes of Mousavi and Karoubi are the real players of the green movement? They have never been impact players and they never willl, just pawns.

Most of your comments below has been a page out of the green movement book. I have no patience to go over general accusations and trying to defend someone elses actions. That is not my messege.

This shall pass too.

You can't have it both ways

I will have a beer when I full well feel like having one; let’s not degrade what has so far been a civil exchange.  Regarding your comments, excuse me, but what you are saying is that violence is bad when it is being considered against the Ahmadinejad regime, but you ignore the violence his Basij and security forces are actually inflicting upon our people, particularly our beloved students.  How do you reconcile the violence we have been seeing in the streets, his lies (ex. campaign lies about hejab) and his cheating (ex. bussing people to his speeches to give a false impression of support, manipulating statistics about employment) that speak to his lack of any shred of integrity?  Please answer my questions point by point so we can get somewhere with our discussion.

Struggle YES, Armed Struggle NO.

Its ironic that you brought up history...

Throughout history, violent solutions have only offered temporary fixes if any.  As a nation we have to learn to be tolerant toward others beliefs even if its very different than ours. We have to learn how to solve our differences diplomatically with understanding. We have to practice being democratic if we wish for a democracy. I completely disagree with you in regards to armed struggle. It is not the 70s we live in.

The  " determining factor" you mention in your post has been awfully impotent during the last 30 years, so i guess its safe to call them a Non-factor. Infact, let me go a step further and call the basij and sepah the REAL factor ever since the war with iraq up until now.  These are Iranians without the fear of losing anything in this materialistic world for a higher reward in the after life. Who are you kidding... you don't stand a chance , have a beer instead.

After defending Iran's borders admirably( for whatever reasons or beliefs ), Sepah has decided to enter the political scene with likes of Ahmadinejad. I welcomed this new developement since it ended political power monopoly among the elite religious clan. Besides, it gave the mullahs strongest protectors a voice and a identity of its own. No longer a force which takes order, but a force involved in the decision making as well...   I hope you are following.

Surprisingly, although a full fledged military force, sepah has shown political maturity. I thought Ahmadinejad's "fight against corruption" was a powerful warning from sepah to the elites. Sepah has successfully weakened ranks between these elites.

We currently have laws in Iran that justifies executions, stoning and etc. The judiciary is responsible for these laws. Head of judiciary is appointed by the supreme leader. Ahmadinejad can`t change those laws but he did form his cabinet without any religious figure taking a part in it.

However, it has been during Ahmadinejad`s presidency that stoning has been banned and teen execution debated and questioned. Previous administration had a very indifferent approach to these barbaric laws. I welcome the current openness in Iran which allows for these debates to take place. Imagine what would have happened if sepah wanted to exercise its full military power if it was really opposed to the changes happening in Iran.

The proof is in the pudding

Please share some "tangible" results and hard numbers attained after his full term in the office, but spare us the campaign slogans and massaged statistics.

Obviously, you consider Ahmadinejad and his Sepah the better evil in comparison with the clergy as well as the reformists.  You also believe that change is possible from within the system, sort of like a "trickle down" revolution.  In other words you are hoping to get freedoms and human rights from a government of execution, stoning, torture, rape, repression and terror.  Are you with me?  You want them to give you willingly what they are clubing you over the head to keep you from getting.  You can expect what you wish, but can you provide an example of any such occurance in the history of the universe?  Anyone who has an understanding of the nature of third world dictatorships that are sanctioned by the superpowers knows full well the only real change is possible through a long term armed struggle, those who lack the fortitude for another revolution are not the determining factors.     

Bachenavvab...

You offer no realistic solution for Iran by placing all heads of our government in the same basket. People like you have tried to topple the "mullahs" by nagging in the forums behind their desktops for 30 years already. So please...

There are those who think differently. Some of us believe in a gradual change. Some believe in a " divide and conquer" policy. Basically, we pick sides to support different factions within IR. We might differ on who is the lesser evil, but our ultimate goal is reform or change the current system. I doubt anyone has the stomach for another violent revolution. Considering the non existance and impotent opposition leadership outside or inside Iran, changing the current system from within seems to be our best bet. As you see, i offer tangible solution rather than vague and idealistic mumbo jumbo.

Complaining about the state of our economy is within our Iranian blood. Our parents and grandparents have done the same down to us. Blaming all our troubles on Ahmadinejad policies is lame and immature. The only way a president can make IMMIDIATE impact and change during his presidency is to subsidies all goods and reduce taxes. These will make the people happy but eventually damage critical aspect of our economy as we witness it today due to poor policies from previous administrations. Ahmadinejad is making some very hard but good decisions which none of the previous presidents had the balls to make. The most notable ones are abolishing subsidies on a varity of products and services ( which will increase cost ofcourse ). Establishing a proper taxation system , closing down non profitable manufactures, fighting corruption are a few example of the right path our country needs to get through during Ahmadinejad's era.

Correction

" budget to spending ratio of nearly 2 to 1" should be Spending to budget....

Khatami, his allies, Ahmadinejad, Khameneii...

The whole lot of them can take a flying leap into bosom of their god who will pimp some angels for them.I find it amazing that given Iran's disaster of an economy, Ahmadinejad is being positioned as some sort of a think-tank of economy.  Iran with the second largest gas reserves and the third largest oil reserves in the world  has a foreign debt of over 23 billion Dollars, unemployment rate of over 12% (BTW after they manipulated the number by redefining employment), an inflation rate of over 25%,  a budget to spending ratio of nearly 2 to 1, and a currency that is two hundred times weaker than the war stricken Afghanistan's and eight times weaker than the Iraqi Dinar.  Yet, we need some sort of a nuclear economy to do what?As for Ahmadinejad's contributions to the political seen, he has  systematically transferred power from the clergy to the Sepah while filling Sepah's pocket.  Are we supposed to celebrate this?  Sorry but We were too busy dodging their clubs to recognize this great accomplishment. 

To put Ahmadinejad in a good light amongst the Iranians abroad (who haven't drank his cool aid) requires nothing short of his own Imame Zaman's personal intervention.    

IRANdokht and onlyiran

Irandokht wrote:

 "you must have no idea what's going on in Iran."

Truth be told, I know what goes on in Iran.  Any type of green movement protest is put down by government forces right and left.

Who are these government forces?  Iranian Citizens.  The majority of Iranian men have to complete 2 years of military service in order to be issued an Iranian passport which permits Iranian Males to travel outside Iran.  These Iranian males are the Basij, Pasdar Revolutionary Guards, and the Iranian military.  Everyone in the reform movement who has been deemed a danger to the Iranian theocracy has been silenced one way or another.  Some has disappeared of the face of the earth.  The theocracy in Iran is like many countries in the middle east and the 3rd world.  I know exactly what is going on. 

After February 11, 1979 the American Government had accepted the Iranian Revolution.  If the Hostage crisis had not occured Iran would have normal relations with the United States like other countries under religious laws like Saudi Arabia.

OnlyIran wrote: 

"The tide has not turned against the Green Movement.  The Green Movement is being brutally silenced by the IRI."

Who is the IRI?  Basijis, Iranian Revolutionary Guard called the Sepah Pasdaran and the Iranian military.  They are made up of Iranian males, a majority who join these forces to secure an Iranian passport in order to travel outside Iran.  The majority of Iranian males need to serve a 2 year obligatory military service before they are granted an Iranian passport.

Give them 10 years... these same guys who are smashing people right and left will be the reform movement a decade from now.

And in 10 years people will be wearing T-shirts with these goons photos on their shirt.

If Ayat'Allah Sedegh Khalkali were alive today, he would be a hardcore Green Movement leader.  Khalkali would have been the reform movement's leader.

And people would be wearing Khalkali photos and deeming him a hero.

Ahmadi started enrichment in retaliation 4 UN imposed sanctions.

Everything is sacred.

Bachenavvab...

Just for starter, It might be interesting for you to know that during Khatami presidency nuclear negotiations, Khatami's team agreed to suspend enrichment for two years and after that be allowed to have three ( Yes , Three!! ) units for spinning uranium for research purposes.

Thanks to Gods that before our parliament ratify the bill , his term was over and we had Ahmadinejad to defy previous negotiations and break the locks on enrichment facilities.

You might ask me ; so whats in it for us if we have full cycle enrichment?

The benefits are huge. Its like a new industry being born altogether with new research and firms in agriculture, medicine and the military being directly affected and indirectly benefiting other industries as well.It could translate into a multi billion dollar industry for Iran. Don't you think it was Khatami who showed "total lack of regard for Iran..." ?( your quote)

Ahmadinejad is a firebrand and controversial politician and he looks like a monkey as well, but;

To deny some of his contribution ( which is more than any other presedents before him ) is to deny FACTS. He has broken many taboos in Iran's political climate and has defended Iran's right internationally rather well. He is making the painful but correct decisions on economical issues which sadly the next president will enjoy the fruit of Ahmadinejad's presidency.

American Dream

The tide has not turned against the Green Movement.  The Green Movement is being brutally silenced by the IRI. 

I have a problem with AN and dignity in the same sentense

I try very hard to not make my comments personal and respect all opinions.  But I realy question some motives.  I don't know if, or how, AN defended Iran.  His behavior has shown total lack of regard for Iran and Iranians.  Iran to him has been what a host body is to a parasite.   

Based on a "telephone poll"?

American dream

You seem to be dreaming dear!  

If you don't know why this poll is bogus, then you must have no idea what's going on in Iran.

IRANdokht

Too many pro-IRI supporters in Iran

I do not know where in tehran this place is in the photos but, one can conclude that there are too many pro-IRI supporters there.  One can even conclude the tide has been against the Green Movement in Iran for some time.

//features.csmonitor.com/globalnews/2009/09/23/most-iranians-support-ahmadinejad-and-nuclear-power-poll-finds/

Reactionary reply...

This would probabely be my last reply on this topic since your reply to my post has been reactionary with little evidence for your arguement.

I am not trying to win any arguements here. I just wanted a discussion and i am getting reactionary replies. however;

All charity/welfare organizations operate as a business which means they own some sort of investment or funds to help their causes. This means owning manufactures as well. This is common practice in open market economies and common knowledge as well ;)

If this instituion is related to military, it is quite possible in any country that their books are not publicly published. Maybe you get that info if living in Sweden, but generally its NOT common practice.

Not accepting Mousavi's as a leftist politician with how he ran the country during the wartime is laughable. Wartime economy can go either way. If cost of comodities are the same as before the war as during the war, then the government had to pay huge subsidies to keep the cost at a certain level. It is safe to say if you hear the word " subsidy" ,the government is following a leftist economical policy while if it comodities prices rise dramatically during the war ( a normal trend ), then the government has stayed true to open market policy. I leave it up to you to decide which way Mousavi swang during war. ;)

I don't have any comments on who and why certain private manufactures were confiscated during the revolution. It was a revolution. get over it.

I am due to provide source for my claim about Ahmadinejad shutting down non profitable bonyad manufactures. This was brought up by mohsen rezaie during election campaign debate. He was complaining about Ahmadinejads closures of certain manufactures and Ahmadinejad told him it was due to non profitability. Abviously A is not talking about private manufactures since that is not in the government domain. Also he is not talking about manufactures related to government ministries. This question was brought up by a former guard and to manufactures operated by Bonyad. Further digging in Tabnak site and Keyhan newspaper prove my point to be correct. Do your own digging , it pays off. I don't know how much the bonyad makes and i never claimed to know that. But if you are hell bent to discredit me by all means, I came here for a discussion and not a war.

PS; I am new here and i authorize the site moderator to compare my IP address with any previous poster. The moderator can attest to this.

no fear

i never said welfare institutions were a new concept in
Iran. but you are wrong in that not many countries have welfare institutions that operate
this way. if i am wrong, please give us examples of other such 'welfare' institutions run secretly by the military and never reporting on their financial accounts to elected bodies. the bonyad and the sepah are states within a state. 

Bonyad (formally known as the Pahlavi foundation) does
monopolise a HUGE part of Iran's economy and is far bigger than under the Shah. This is because they confiscated all the major private industries in iran at the time of the revolution. 

Mousavi's leftist government was not my 'beloved'. however, all states take full control of the economy during wars. he did nothing 'leftist' at all. Churchill did the same in the UK.

touche?! you confuse post-revolutionary takeover of private industries with moussavi's war-time economic policies.

as for the 'share holders', are you claiming that the bonyad has share holders? pls explain.

re. the 'villas in northern iran', are you saying that sepahis do not own such villas? are we talking about the same country and sepah? i am distantly related to a very senior sepahi commander who owns several nice villas in northern tehran. the same clique that runs the sepah, runs the bonyad and the intelligence services.

re ' dictator, fascist' well again, are we talking about iran? have you never heard of the para-milatry arm of the sepah known as the basij? do you not know that they use the same tactics as the hitler youth?

explain to me your claim about Ahmadinejad making the bonyad accountable for their
books. where do they publish their books? how much profits do they make? how much taxes do they pay? you obviously know something that the rest of us have been wondering about for decades. pls enlighten us.

Peace

Thanks Nilofar Jan

Whilst honest debate is enlightening to all participants , a dishonest discourse based on one party using several different usernames to advance an insidious pro IRI/IRGC/AN propaganda is well not only futile but also undermines the current struggle that the Iranian people are so bravely undertaking.

Whilst you are welcome to spend your time as you see fit- I feel it my duty to expose the dishonesty of one party when it becomes evident to me. I also consider debating such elements clearly counter productive. 

Those criticizing Mousavi and Karoubi have Stockholm Syndrome!

Everything is sacred.

khaleh mosheh jan

i humbly suggest that it is OK to debate these important points with any of our fellow iranians. i don't think they mean any harm, and i sincerely hope they feel the same about me and you.

kharmagas is a cool dude in my view. there is a very difficult balance to to strike between 'national interests' and 'democracy' for iran. ahmadinejad fails on this count rather miserably. his supporters sacrifice iranians' quest for freedom for individuals in the quest for independence and what they perceive to be a cosmic struggle for god. they go completely overboard with their ideological obsesions- just like zionists do.

all in all, what i mean is that i don't doubt their motivation. they are simply misguided.

Peace

No Fear is yet another reincarnation

Of Jaleho et al. 

No Fear --Registered 1 day 15 hrs ago. 

He is clearly yet another username of Jaleho/Kharmagas/booshveg/Salman Farsi.

Its such an ugly game he/she is playing. 

Get your facts straight

Welfare institutions which control financial businesses and manufacturing companies ( like the bonyad ) is not a new concept in Iran and in fact many countries have welfare institutions that operate this way.

Bonyad ( formally known as the Pahlavi foundation ) did not monopolise a HUGE part of Iran economy. Where did you get this info?  Actually, during your beloved Mousavi leftist government who believed in state control economy ( which Karroubi was an advocate as well ) , the bonyad was at its peak power managing most of government industries. In your arguement, you have deliberately decided to ignor the fact that the whole economy was based on socialism and state control and yet you blamed the bonyad for that monopoly... touche.

An institution trying to provide for its share holders , or those they were meant to provide for  ( mostazafan va shohada in our case ) is not called " corruption".   If you have problem with this definition just size it up against those who used there power for personal gains like purchasing villas in nothern Tehran to better understand the point i'm trying to make.

Interestingly, the only connection between sepah and bonyad was that a former guard became responsible for its operation. But i guess this is enough for you to come to a conclusion.

I dont know how to respond to the rest of your post since its more rhetorical and tainted with personal views, respecfully. ( ex. dictator, fascist, etc) I get the impression you are not a fan of Ahmadinejad.

Well , it was Ahmadinejad who made bonyad accountable for their books and cut government subsidies for manufactures under their network. He told them flat out if the manufacture is not profitable , fix the issue during a given period or close down. But you didn't know this either.

Peace

well all get it No fear

at least to varying degrees.

i find your perspective on the sepah quite interesting. it is close to Jaleh's position in that it points to an element of 'healthy' nationalism in the position of the sepah. 

but there is a whole diffierent side to that story. i am not clear about the actual figures (nobody is!), but the sepah through the bonyad has monopolised a huge part of iran's economy and industrial capability, which ensures less than optimal performance by stifling competition, and thus resulting in a huge opportunity cost to the country's development.

they do not answer to anyone, and are therefore totally unaccountable. they act above society and have adopted a might is right approach, mafia style. in that sense, they are as corrupt as you can get.

and most of what you describe as their commitment to iran actually comes from the rank and file and the sacrifices they have made. it does not absolve their leadership of their duties toward ordinary iranians whose property and collective fiscal revenue has been taken for ransom by a dictatorial para-military force with strong fascistic leanings against iranian civilians.

this is corruption at a whole different level, and ahmadinejad and his fellow dictators are utter hypocrites in truth when they accuse rafnsanjani and others.

it is also corrupt in how it tries to divert attention from lack of freedom inside iran by forever fanning the flames of conflict with outside enemies - at the direct expense of internal progress. very bush-like!

we need to get rid of ahmadinejad like the americans got rid of bush: for our own benefit.

Peace

Supporting the same old crooks is not " Gradual Change".

Don't you get it?

Karoubi, Mousavi, Janati, Hashemi Rafsanjani , Karbaschian, Mohtashemi, Mohajerani and others who oppose Ahmadinejad are the same bunch who have been ruling Iran for the last 30 years!

Now this bunch is crying "reform" !   Are you kidding me?

What sort of reform these dinosaurs have exhibited and presented when they were in power? Give me one freaking example for proof....  none, zip, zero nothing ...

But now they are the "green" leaders and dedicated to reform.... LOL.. yeah sure.

Ahmadinejad has rightfully brought corruption charges against most of them and exposed them in the open.  Real reform happened in Iran when Ahmadinejad won his first election. Well .. it was more like a soft coup by the sepah which was fed up with the corruption that led to Ahmadinejad victory.

In my opinion, Ahmadinejad has made some very interesting and tangible moves and changes despite how things might seem to you on the surface.

No fear

I think ID is right: you contradicted yourself. this is what gradual change is like. you cannot dismiss and support it at the same time. (well, strictly speaking, you can...!)

let me ask you this: is it not a totally new development to see the regime fractured so clearly?

Peace

دمش گرم.

یکی‌ از کمتر کسانی‌ که شعار نمیده و با جرات عقاید خودش رو بیان میکنه، حتا اگر خودش رو به خطر بندازه.

Misguided indeed...

Did you know that the ministry of ershad under Ahmadinejad has allowed the publications of over 30 newspapers criticizing the government policies?

Did you know this number was 8 publications in Khatami era?

Heck.. During Mousavi era, you couldn't even have a registered group to discuss poetry.   Under Ahmadinejad, almost all trades and labor unions , artists, engineers and others were allowed to establish their own groups. New parties came to existance and were allowed to work and participate in their respected areas. Ahmadinejad policies to open up freedom of press has acted like a double sword against him. Yet people forget that he was the main reason that the opposition can be heard. When did we have this privilege during the last 30 years?

So, what freedom of speech are you refering to ....

No Fear

I don't think you got what I mean. And to enlighten you more, the green movement that I am supporting is a lively movement that people in it take actions and don't just sit and critique others. The movement of students, artists, journalists and any one who seeks human rights. And no, I don't believe that Rafsanjani is composing it, he has power, he has money, but what he does not have is the people. I know how much he wants to take seyyed ali's position but he is out. And about Mousavi, he is part of the regime, and is defeating only in frames of the IRI constitution. But if he can open up a space for freedom of speech, why not supporting him until we get that voice?

سبز سبز تا بهار

Karoubi and Mousavi are not Leadership Material.

Green movement is misguided and leaderless.

How can you call Karoubi a knight when the crook didn`t even answer Ahmadinejad question televised on national TV and told Ahmadinejad `quote : You have more guts than i do by calling names. I am not that brave``  I am NOT kidding. Google this for yourself.

What does the Green movement that you belong to stands for anyway. Please enlighten me. I am so confuse since your leaders didnt have any solid program for Iran during the election. Except for some empty slogans.

Do you realize that the movement you claim to belong to is being played by a composer like Hashemi Rafsanjani.