1978

"Our" Generals

times@iranian.com should have more respect for these great Persian patriots and not so callously call them "Shah's generals".  These brave men were not puppets but great defenders of our soil, flag, and dignity.  Only if we had them before Alexander, Omar, Changis, or Tamerlane invaded our country.  Is times@iranian.com a tool of the Arab nations, or the Communist nations?  I wonder.  I will shoot an e-mail to them and make my comment be known to them.  

alex

right on the money!!!

what u have written are the cold hard facts.....

i wish the shah had not stood up to big oil companies and had made bakhtiar pm in 74 or75....

iran would be paradise now 

In Memory of a True Persian General, Timsar Manuchehr Khosrodad

//www.iranrights.org/english/memorial-case--3306.php

Emil's "Justice"

Yes, late Shah was a dictator. So was the vast majority of all of Iran's rulers over the centuries. So should everybody from that regime who served their country but did not take part in oppression be executed? When Khamenei is gone, shall we go and execute every commander in the Iranian Air Force?

So in 1979, a new government took power and you claim administered "justice" for the victims of this dictator. And blamed these generals, as do you. So how long did their trials take? How much evidence was presented? What crimes were they convicted of, Mr. Prosecutor Emil? The crime Jahanbani was convicted of in a sham of a trial was "corruption on Earth". Nothing about any victim anywhere. It was not a trial. It was MURDER. And murder is murder, nobody who commits it.

Fact is, people like him were just as much victims of dictatorship as all the intellectuals, students, writers, journalists that were killed by dictatorship (pre and post revolution) in Iran.

The question is, are YOU any better. From your comments, obviously not. Do you believe in justice and rule of law and fair trials, or do you just unilaterally judge and execute because you think you are absolutely right. This is where dictatorship starts - YOU and people like you are the problem. Just take a whole group of peope who have served their country, say "they are all puppets and guilty". Without a SHRED of evidence.

So indeed one should stir the past, and learn the lessons for a better future. Otherwise, we are doomed to be swimming in a sea of ignorance like yours.

-Fair

Emil

which one of the Generals above did you or any of your family members wrong? please point that out, so we'll know. and in case you DOn't know, they owe you nothing nor any of your family members a God damn thing!

Get it !?

-F 

Not Victims...

Do not try to portrait these so called generals as victims. They were part of a brutal, savage, corrupt repressive  regime ruled by late dictator Mohammad Reza Pahlavi.  These so called generals were not the victims, they were predators who were caught and paid for their share of supporting the dictatorial regime.    

The real victims were  intellectuals, students, writers, journalist and ordinary people who were jailed, tortured, and killed by the dictator Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, while supported by these puppet generals. 

What about the families, relatives ,wives, and kids of  people killed by the late dictator ?

My suggestion is that, if you want to stir the past, it is going to stink more, so it is better to look froward...

P.S.  looks like a  coup d'etat here on this site too, my comments get deleted!!  way to go democracy and freedom of speech...

Fair & Alex, The key requirement is speedy

build up of democratic institutions post IRR. And clear, unambiguous, extremely simple phrasing of the key components of any new constitution and mass distribution and review before it (and identification of its supporting individuals and groups) before it ever gets to a national referendum.

First has been systematically destroyed througout the 20th Century. Second, has always been open to manipulation.

The foreign influence (and dependence) has grown in Iran over the past 30 years and is a fact to contend with. Step one is formation of a National interim government of unity to facilitate a 'clean' transition, under the watchful eyes of all of us, specially the movement in Iran.

In Memory of a Brave Persian General, Mehdi Rahimi

//iranian.com/History/2001/February/Rahimi/index.html

To Emil: Please grow up!

Movement must be indigenous

Thank you Alex for the enlightening account of what happened in 1979 and the warning to be careful today. I wish many more people, especially the educated, were more careful and asked more questions instead of shouting in 1979.

I didn't know about the extent of Gharebaghi's role, and I wouldn't be surprised by anything big American corporations (especially oil companies) will do to Iranian people. Look what they do to American people and one can extrapolate.

The lesson I take away from all this is that any Iranian movement towards change must be indigenous, and driven domestically by Iranians, with Iranians abroad providing support and no one else. In this world, nobody gives a **** about Iranians except Iranians. And even then sometimes in some cases even that is doubtful.

So if we don't like the US government budgeting $75 mil for radio stations, then the answer is we should fund our own radio stations and broadcast the best cultural, social, political programs to Iran. We should give money to a fund to sponsor and support Iranian students and activists, etc. Some of this happens already (this website one of the best examples- thank you very much JJ you American imperialist puppet you:)), but the more the merrier. We also need to think independently and educate ourselves and practice being citizens and being involved and tolerant to each others' views. This means religious people tolerating non religious and vice versa. Almost like we should draft our own Iranian Bill of rights that everybody can agree on, and that becomes the first part of our new constitution. It would be good to do this BEFORE going in the streets. I am so pleased that in my lifetime I see this happening on a large scale at the grass roots level, and young Iranians in Iran and elsewhere are leading the way. In the Mousavi campaign I remember seeing "Har Irani yek setad (each Iranian is a headquarter)", which is a huge departure from before, which was "everybody follow me, I know better than you".

Let's keep this movement Iranian and finally finally, take our destiny in our own hands. I am hopeful. AN and Khamenei are mad and worried. They have good reason to be.

-Fair

Guess What the Followers of the Green Movement will get...

I know that with the extensive experience of goodness all Iranians have come to know of their fellow countrymen that it is asking too much to image an Iran where a few people in power happen to be corrupt.

However, dare I say the obvious... and how I hate to enlighten such a wise people... the central aim of the green movement, is to make it Impossible for pro traditional elements to save Iran from Western funded Corruption and to impose some form of nationalist movement that will secretly be corrupt.

How many of you would accept just a few thousand million dollars to do as you are asked.  

That's far too many... Americans are'nt willing to pay for a landslide... The US military only paid al-sadr $700 million dollars up front and $200 million a year to stay out of iraq, pull back the mehdi militia and do as the US wants.

Okay look... we are prepared to pay 20,000 million up front and 2,000 million a year amongst just a half a dozen top leaders ... got it?

And Remember to say Down with the Shah... being that as a king everything in Iran is in his name it would make him untouchable.. like his father and grandfather who we could never influence to serve us.

Anyone near Orlando Florida? We could have chai together...

Che Shod... Ke Chonan Shod? ("Why did it happen?")

Garebaghi was like a trojan horse holding the highest office in the military.  When The USA, UK, France and Germany united under Carters leadership on the Island of Guadaloupe they all committed to support the creation of an Islamic Republic under Khomeini's absolute dictatorship.

Oil companies that supported Carter becoming president were happy that they had regained control of oil prices, as well as paying a lower percentage of revenues to Iran (which meant larger profits) with Khomeini.

It was no longer necessary to support a more democratic goverment in Iran. Carter had colonel huyser work out a way to prevent the creation of a democratic secular government by making sure the military was kept out of supporting the peoples ability to vote in a referendum (Gharabaghi was the head of the military that did as Carter wanted), and so the existing constitution could be destroyed.  Gharabaghi was a HUGE TRAITOR. 

The Shah was shocked that all the miliary were duped and so many went along with Gharabaghi to their deaths.  Later it became clear from survivors that none of them had received the orders from the Shah (which had been concealed by Gharabaghi) to never forget that they had all swore to defend the constitution of Iran with their lives and they should all ultimately protect Irans constitution, which was now being directly destroyed by Khomeini and his followers.  Gharabaghi was the missing link at the top.

General Rahimi was a true defender of Iran until his final breath. He was an imperial officer who had sworn on the Koran to defend the constitution.

In todays Iran where most people don't even know this... Young inexperienced Iranians are again going down another cliff that the west is funding... a so called democratic green movement which ultimately isn't intended to do anything positive for Iranians since the planning and funding of it is not being done with Iranians in mind.  It is taking advantage of a desire for change, amongst fundamentalist revolutionaries at the top and supported by the dissatisfied masses.

Since Iranians don't seem to be able to rally around their own flag, traditions or culture i.e. the monarchy... as an Iranian Symbol to unite different people and then evolve towards democracy Iam not too hopeful in they will do much better than any of the democracies in Africa.

Inviting everyone to Florida, for a chai.

Alex

Kaveh and Marhoum Kharmagas

Thank you for your kind words (Kharmagas if you are truly marhoum, then khoda rahmatat koneh), and I am glad you liked the post. Too bad the editors of IC don't agree with you:)

-Fair

re: che shod

totally agree with you....Garebaghi was a first rate traitor. Isn't he the one who went to switzerland with the Shah to study and apparently was his best friend. In regard to Oveisi, the idea was mooted but he did not have a good reputation amongst people given his alleged involvement in jaleh square massacres. Well now we know that was not true.

Fair

Agree with MK.

very nicely put.

KP

your best comment (to Fair)

" That is why in my opinion the Iranian military under the Shah did the right thing to not turn its weapons on its people"

Fair, yes, Iranian army could not make up for years of mistakes by the system. .... because of Shah's fault, or the fault of people around him, or both, people were kept in dark even about good characteristics of Shah .... like his urge for wanting to make Iran independent toward later years of his life (as depicted in his 1975-76 interviews).

Many good points in a fair-ly short comment, I suggest you post this as a blog, it could benefit the noisy fools in all sides.

Hovakhshatare, who altered my ego?

 for what purpose?

A8, I figured you won't get it

as your altered ego Emil won't

SAVAK_agent, he did not meet his end!

the mob was stopped by some mullahs otherwise the guy could have died!

let's be thankful for good judgement.

Lynching

Just as an FYI, this is how many Generals met their end; while we antiseptically hear about revolutionary courts, tribunals, executions....many were stuck behind in this mob-savagery.

This is an army/police general and his modest '60s Mercedes 250 v. the Mercedes 600 6 door Limos most Ministers had.

Sad...this was someones Father, Uncle, Grand Father, Brother

//iranian.com/main/blog/fozolie/history-violence-lynching-0

See pic # 12

//lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/29/showcase-58/

Hovakhshatare,

I am a jewish eskimo, if you must know. why do you ask? how is that important?

what is your culture? SAVAKI?

Che Shod Ke Chonan Shod? ("Why did it happen?")

Abbas Gharabaghi (Author), Ahmad Ahrar (Author)

Review By Bijan:I read this book along 2 other books That Gharabaghi has written about the same subject(s). In his book he tries very hard to misguide the readers on what really happened. General Gharabaghi held many key positions during his 42 years in the Shah's Imperial Army. In the last 9 months of 1978, he became minister of war, minister of interior and chairman of joint chiefs of staff. Gharabghi had the opportunity and the absolute military power to save Iran from falling in the hands of the fundamentalists. Instead he used his power to misguide other military leaders who were loyal to H.I.M. Shahanshah. Had the Shah selected General Oveisi as the supreme commander of impeial armed forces instead of Gharabaghi, the uprising would have been crushed and all other conspirators would have been arrested or defeted. British MI-6 had a lot to do with what really happened and advised the Shah to install Gharabghi who was weak and always known as an outsider in the imperial court and spoke Farsi with a strong turkish accent. Iranin people must know that General Abbas Gharabaghi was one of the Persia's worst traitor who joined the oppositions and ordered the military to surrender rather than joining the other military leaders like Lt. General Rahimi, Lt. General Badrei and Major General Naji to carry out the "Operations Abortion" and crush the uprising in 1979.

Shahid general Oveisi, one of Iran's last true generals:

//www.peiknet.com/1385/hafteh/09tir/72/page/o...

Crew of Titanic

 //www.titanic.com/images/articles/inside_titanic/crew1.jpg

The Generals photo is the same as the above link and here is why.

I was born, grew up in Tehran, and have IIAF Officers in the family.

I have been reading Iranian.com for the last 10 yrs, and have read every book/account on the 12 months pre-revolution; and always seen this reaction when posts about the "Shahs Last Generals"; Generals at Persepolis", "Generals in Black Tie" etc appear.

Usually, the reaction is oddly schizophrenic.

You have the nostalgic Iranians who love the prestige and glamour.

You have the nostalgic Iranians who were jealous of the prestige and power, even then.

You have bitter monarchist American-Iranians, who see that they will never rise in any society to this level.

You have jealous Iranian-Americans that saw these guys came to Beverly Hills, Park Ave. and not miss a beat, while they struggled.

Then you have pseudo experts on everything from moassadegh, history, economy, literacy, human rights, the paykan, and savak who point the finger from the luxury of 20/20 hindsight & some gated community in OC, VA or, NYC.

Last you have the 'Planet of the Apes' storm-trooper Basij who somehow still log in here, to spew their diarrhea nonsense.

THE BOTTOM LINE is these GENERALs sunk the ship.

We can debate who got the Fifth star, had blue blood, handed out 18K Rolexes left and right.

 Its akin to rearranging deck chairs on the the Titanic or debating whether Dinner, Game Room or Bar service were more profitable.

 Again, there were MANY instances when THESE GENERALs (and some in Army, etc) could of put their foot down and said NO MORE.

There was a moment when the ORDER should have come to:

-exterminate ALL protesters like Tianamen Sq. 

-seal all brorders

-hang all revolutionary clerics

-cut all communications, papers, radio, cassette,  telex, etc.

-Declare martial law for 3yrs.

-Expropriate all accounts/property of above

That order never came. 

EVERY one here knows, in places they dont admit to a Nowruz parties, and West Hollywodd Kebabis, and EU clubs, that this slaughter of 100,000 people would have destroyed the Mullahs.

The order finally came from the Mullahs, and for 30 years, its been carried out daily.

At the end of day, the Generals couldnt produce a Charimatic Rogue Officer who would seize power; call it softness, malaise or dittering and fiddling while Tehran burned, and Nojeh failed.

Most of the IIAF Colonels saw this and took off; before the Generals tried to bump them off Iran Air or played their Kabuki rituals of deciding who was more senior.

The Generals tried to have it both way by decalring neutrality and inaction, and got niether.

For that they will always be remembered for sinking the SHIP !

All is not lost.  The current Mullahs are making the same mistakes and a hasty press conference or mis-interepreted release, email, comunique with provincial basij at the switch will undue this rotting Islamic Iron Curtain just ilke 1989.

Dont stand in its way with deluded fantasies of the past (ie, Titanic II)....and dont be a hapless technocati, splitting hairs of minutia....let todays truth stand tall, and let go of these old dreams and let the next generation flood the streets of Tehran and wash out the Mullah filth. 

The Mullahs are dying. 

Hovakhshatare had excellent contributions

to this discussion, especially regarding the analysis he shared with us regarding the fateful early days of the air war. Thank you Hovakhshatare.

Regarding acrojet and Saegheh. An acrojet team is not about the plane, it is about the pilots. Saegheh is a domestic modification of the F-5, which has little practical use for Iran, and actually questionable whether it is an improvement. However, it is a huge accomplishment for our scientists and engineers given that they have practically nothing to work with, and the knowledge gained by doing this will be valuable. It is just another example of dedicated Iranians being able to accomplish great things WHEN they are allowed. Yes, it has stability and performance problems with the wingtip rails, but such problems are expected during development of prototypes.

In the meantime, an acrojet team doesn't need to be made from Saegheh or any other plane with a nice paint scheme. Paint schemes can be easily applied to anything. it can even be made up of Russian or Chinese planes like the Mig29 or F7 so that there is no problem with spare parts and flying time. (The Russians and Chinese have their own acrojet teams).  That is the whole point of an acrojet team- not the high tech planes, but the humans flying those planes, and the dedication to those pilots having high standards. When you have such a team, all the pilots dream of joining it and compete and reach for the sharpest flying skills. That is what Jahanbani envisioned over 50 years ago for Iran. There are many people in Iran today with the same passion and vision of the young Jahanbani, but they will never be allowed to rise to any level of influence by a mullah, because as Khomeini has said himself, "Taahod (belief) is more important than takhassos (expertise)".

It all comes back to leadership, and how much a system rewards competence and professionalism over ideology.

-Fair

SP, I have covered your totality from every angle

and on several thread where you perform your blood-money paid function of propaganda.

the subject now is why you are here as a self-proclaimed expert of IRR? whose essence is force, rape, plunder and subjugation. What exactly is your point as supporter of the enemy of the Iranian nation that is worth hearing or reading?

Hovakhshatare

All you're doing is reacting to my comments in a one-sided rant.

Come up with commentary of your own; perhaps then we can have a meaningful discussion. Otherwise, there's really no point in continuing this.

There's actually been some remarkably informative comments on this thread. But admit it, Hovakhshatare, so far none have come from you.

sp, no you don't have much and offer no value but propaganda

for your masters. Which is as far as as you've managed to climb the khianat ladder.

"Plus, I've additional info from sources very close to the IRIAF, which these reports do not.". I'm sure if there is any truth to your statement, the post IRR government will be in touch with you but they will likely start from several layers above you and work their way down.

Hovakhshatare

You're sort of right. Iran's aerobatic team isn't directly related to the post, but it was mentioned in more than one previous comment and I responded to it. If it offends you for some reason or other, simply ignore it.

Yes, I've already read your suggested reading list on the Saeqeh, and much more than that. Plus, I've additional info from sources very close to the IRIAF, which these reports do not. (By the way, some of the details in your suggested reports are wrong or outdated, such as the number of flying aircraft.)

It should be noted that Iran's nuclear program and SSM program are given priority over any IRIAF new fighter procurement, hence the considerable refurbishment efforts currently in effect.

A8, Emil... whatever your name is.

What is your culture?

"culture of Khaye mali"!

Emil, i agree with this notion because its so true!

in fact, in my opinion, this culture hurt the military, especially the Royal airforce.

people had to be so loyal to the shah that they were out of touch with the rest of iran. even when the rest of the military turned to the tide of the revolution, these officers would not.

speaking of khaye mali, why is nobody talking about the pilots who defected during the war? i wonder if any of them are in pictures.

SP, you are totally irrelevant.. to topic at hand, Air Power or

Military intel. Your babble about Saegeh is not only totally irrelevant, it is generic, and if you are trying to say you know any of these subjects, you have miserably failed. Stay focused. The Topic is the honorable and PROFESSIONAL Generals of the IRANIAN AF not IRR mumbo jumbo.

"..the matter of allocating resources for formation training..." is a crooked way of admitting IRR is too corrupt and incompetent to do this, as with anything else. Info (mis-info from IRR on ability of these 60's technology light fighter jet) on Saegeh is readily available from many more reliable and intelligent sources than you...

//www.defenseindustrydaily.com/irans-new-saegheh-fighter-enters-service-02596/

//www.thewashingtoninstitute.org/print.php?template=C05&CID=2422

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HESA_Saeqeh

"Iran's senior military leaders know that its air forces would not be able to resist an invasion by a major power such as the United States."

"As far as new purchases are concerned, Iran has largely had to settle for semi-obsolescent designs from China."