Sic Semper Tyrannis

AntiiMozakhraf

I already explained my reasoning. The Iranians in America are not that different from any other Iranians. We are not talking about a few thousand rich families. We are talking about millions of people. Are these all "non-representative"? 

As for CIA's book. They record the "nominal" religion of the people. They do not account for actual behavior. By their and your definition I would be a Muslim. Now if you really think I am a Muslim then that throws your counting off.

Here is a question. I was born into a "non-practicing" Muslim family. I have not converted to another religion. I believe in God but not in Mohammad or Islam. I do not plan to convert to another religion. I just left Islam. I do not do "namaz" or "roozeh" or any of that. What does that make me?

Regarding rural Iranians. My family is partly from a rural part of Iran. The men in our family never practiced Islam. The women did to some degree. However I know both of my grandfather actively hated Islam. Not just non-practicing but openly hostile to it. I guess not all rural Iranians are hard core Muslims after all.

We are not going to resolve this debate here. It will go on. As long as Muslims threaten other with death for leaving Islam we won't know. The only real way is for Muslims to stop threatening people. Then see who chooses to remain Muslim. That ain't gonna happen now.

Thanks for your points. VPK.

Escape I am

gonnao have to break the news to you but you are wrong:

• The only Iranian people who are "IR" are government officials. I say if an Iranian government official applies to Stanford then fine they can reject them., But we are talking about normal people not ministers or MPs. No normal Iranian has a say in the IR and is hence not responsible for the actions of it.
• USA law applies to all the people in the USA not just the citizen. This is not me saying it. But the rule of American law. I suggest you ask an American lawyer. That is why they did not want the Afghan prisoners on USA soil. Because they would be subject to American law.

Sir, having an MKO talk about denial is pretty funny. They have been in denial since their inception. They actually think Maryam Rejavi is the "President" of Iran. Sure, that is not denial? In what election did she win? How did this monster get to be president!

VPK's case of serious denial

Iranian people are not the same as Iranian government.

The fact is some of them ARE.

According to USA law people are innocent unless proven guilty. So that applies to Iranian students as well as other people.

USA Law is for USA citizens,that does NOT apply to Iranian students.

I do not see too many people in Iran chanting "Death to America" your tapes are old. 30 year old video is not valid. 

According to Al-Jazeera's Sunday Night live stream coverage of the Egyptian protest's,Iranian's message to Egyptians was a full out -Death to America gathering.This was last week,not 30 years ago.

 I do see a lot of American right wingers effectively wishing for Obama to fail. How about that? Do they get to go to Stanford!

Yes Right Wingers want Obama to fail just as Left Wingers wanted Bush to fail.On a FAR LARGER SCALE.Do they get to Stanford? H&ll,they are TEACHING at Stanford.

The MKO-Whatever.That conversation is over your head..

So VPK...

Let me see if I got this right...you want to refute the claim that '99% of Iranians are Moslems' and that most are religious. Let's assume that this is indeed refutable. You decide to take a questionable poll and throw in your own assumptions about what the results it represent in order to refute? No wonder there are so many holes in the argument!

And yes 98% of Iranians ARE moslem (see CIA World FactBook for 2010). And INSIDE IRAN most may well be religious, at least to the extent that AO has outlined in his comment. Like it or not VPK, Islam is a big part of Iranian culture and it isn't just going to go away with IRI because people don't want it to.

But what's worse is that your poll refers specifically to IRANIAN AMERICANS which is not at all representative of Iranians as a whole, at least not in terms of how religious they may be. Did anyone at this reputable establishment conducting this poll consider that the Iranians who came to the US were not exactly Gol Andam and Haj Agha Abbas from dehaat'e roodsar who are FAR more likely to be religious than your typical Los Angelino variety of Iranian American? (BTW 32% of the population in Iran lives in rural regions so right there you can't exclude them from the non-religious population. Would you agree that at the very least 50% of the other 68% are religious as well? That would make most Iranians religious).

Back to the 'have left Islam' bit ... you don't LEAVE a religion unless you convert to another one! The fact that one is born into a non-practicing family and grows up in a secular environment and believes in God (or not) without practicing ANY religion doesn't mean one has LEFT his/her birth religion. A lot of these same people will still refer to their birth religion when asked. And if they never considered themselves of that faith to begin with, then there is nothing TO LEAVE. But you are trying to make it sound like 50% of Iranian Americans are now dead against Islam and that is simply not true.

One can't just take a 'study' that is already riddled with holes, twist it AND succeed in using it to refute facts VPK. Some would call us a nation of liars if we take that approach too often and well, it would be hard to refute that one now, wouldn't it?

In reality

comments made by 'Iranian Hating Iranians' do not bring more business to this Iranian website and this Fesenjoon character was one big 'Iranian Hating Iranian'. He may have had some hidden agenda or he may have been a part of a tag team to insult Iranians and their culture.

People like him are bad for our moral and are bad for business. Why?

Because they inflame/create inferiority complex in readers for being an Iranian. After a while Iranian dotcom will lose readers and visitors because of comments made by people like the above character. We as Iranians and Muslims are getting enough hate from the non Iranians and non Muslims we don't need any more of it. 

Why does any Iranian would want to come over here and read some more negativity and insults towards his/her own culture and religion?

AO

I am not hysteric and I do not appreciate insults. I have been respectful in my replies to you.

I am not going to get into a "legal" argument with you. I said what I think and it is not law anyway. I said I rather not see anyone banned.

Now regarding getting "respect". Frankly I did not find them respectable. People I showed them to also agreed with me. How do you know a set of blogs full of venom against Iranian people gets IC respect? I have no idea how much time he put in. You must know something I do not. However it does  not matter. A work of hate even if it took years of devoted care is still a work of hate.

Quit your hysterics VPK

This is what I said:

"The user that he's talking about has been blocked at least three or four times (may be even more).  His last reincarnation- Johnny...- lasted about a week before it was blocked again.  He contributed nothing to the site except comments trying to figure out who's a "Zionist", i.e., Jewish (another garden variety Jew-o-phobic Iranian).  

Now, should Fesenjoon, who put so much effort into writing quality material for the site that generated thousands of hits, "shares" on Facebook and Balatarin, be blocked along with that clown?  How is that fair, or even intelligent?"

And yes, it is for everyone to see.  A repeat offender that contributes nothing to the site should  not be treated the same as a first time offender who puts time and effort into elevating the sit with original ideas.  And it's not about money.  It's about respect for the site.  Someone who puts effort into his work has respect for the site.  Someone who shows up here just to write abusive comments does not.  They should not be treated the same.  

AO

No! You explicitly said IC should make an exception because Fesenjoon is generating hits for them. Please do not change the argument now. Making hits means making money. So you are saying that if someone makes money for you they get away with more.

Please just read your own post. It is out there for everyone to read. You are just changing your argument now because you realize it was not valid. You said nothing about "repeat" anything. Why bring in Facebook; Balatarin at  all. Youreally  said what you meant.

Nonsense VPK!!

The same "rule of law" that you talk about (as if this is a court) recognizes a difference between a repeat and a first time offender.  A repeat and a first time offender do not deserve the same punishment.

AO

Would you please do me a favor and just come out and say what this "tiff" was. I don't keep track of all the drama here. So I honestly do not know. The only one I think of is the poster SP.

As for the rest: 

Now, should Fesenjoon, who put so much effort into writing quality material for the site that generated thousands of hits, "shares" on Facebook and Balatarin, be blocked along with that clown?  How is that fair, or even intelligent?

Yes it is both fair and intelligent. The admin is showing integrity by equal treatment. The admin shows that it will not have a different set of rules for those who generate hits.

You are asking for special treatment. Rules are only respected if they are applied evenly. If they both broke the rules then it follows they both get the same treatment. Otherwise you are asking IC to bend the rules because one person is generating money for them.

That sounds like asking a "celebrity" to be treated better because they are "worth" more. That goes against all basis of rule of law and equal treatment. I am very glad the admin showed integrity and equal treatment. Otherwise they may as well take money to let people break rules. Is this not what you are really asking for.

One more thing

If Fesenjoon is correct in believing that a tiff with a certain former user that he mentions here got him blocked (as well as that user), then this site really needs to have a serious reconsideration of its policies.  The user that he's talking about has been blocked at least three or four times (may be even more).  His last reincarnation- Johnny...- lasted about a week before it was blocked again.  He contributed nothing to the site except comments trying to figure out who's a "Zionist", i.e., Jewish (another garden variety Jew-o-phobic Iranian).  

Now, should Fesenjoon, who put so much effort into writing quality material for the site that generated thousands of hits, "shares" on Facebook and Balatarin, be blocked along with that clown?  How is that fair, or even intelligent? 

Shepesh

Fair enough. It occurred to me after I wrote the last post that you meant Aryana. I accept that he did use language that would be best avoided. I do not support the use of foul language. I also have no problem whatsoever with Baha'i. I have spoken out against their persecution in Iran a lot. 

NP has not used vulgar language.  Probably why she was never banned. I did not "defend" her. She can handle that herself. I just spoke out against the right wing attacks on her. In reality I do not agree with a lot of things she says. I have also got into many arguments with her. 

Regardless as I said before. they do not take orders from me. They write as they see fit. 

When it comes to banning I rather neither Aryana nor Fesenjoon were banned. But again I do not write the IC rules. Nor do I enforce them so it is really not in my hands. 

I think the admin is trying to be fair. Maybe after I complained about Aryana they decided to enforce the rule across the board. So they banned Fesenjoon. At least that makes the rule uniform. At this point I do not know of anyone who does regularly use abusive language and is not banned.

VPK 

VPK - Please enter the real world

To think that most Iranians are not followers of Islam just goes to show the extent of your delusions.  Dude, when was the last time you went to Iran?  99% of my relatives in Iran hate this regime, yet you should see them during Ramezaan.  "koochik va bozorg" as we say, fast, even the most rap music loving, miniskirt wearing ones.  

Look man, the best way to bring a culture of self gratifying, smoke-up-the rear-end blowing, delusion of grandeur espousing know-it alls out of its slumber is to shock it, and that's what Fesenjoon was doing.  In fact, he and people like him show the greatest concern and care for our people by doing so, as opposed to the ones who feed their false egos and pat them on the back for something that they are not.  

And I agree with Shepesh to a certain extent--even though I was opposed to Aryana being blocked, because I think that he had a lot to offer the site as well.  You also wrote a blog about Rosie being blocked and wanted her to come back, even though she has been abusive to many people, including calling other users the "b" and the "c" words on at least one occasion that I saw.   

There is no doubt that Fesenjoon was blocked at least partially for his views.  I clearly remember the comment on the blog that he's talking about, where he mentioned Ali having sex with a nine year old. This is because I was on that thread as well.  There were a total of two comments of his, and one of mine.  Neither of the three comments attacked any users.  The "f" word was even "bleeped" in our comments.  The comments were about Ali having sex with a child.  I noticed that his comment was flagged, and then all three of our comments were deleted.  I think that's when he was blocked.  I don't recall a time where he ever attacked another user.  He responded, but he never attacked, and he never used profanity against anyone.

Lastly, I don't think that Fesenjoon really concerns himself about what you and other people think of him.  I left out the part of his email that talked about that, and I'll just leave it at that. 

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AntiMozakhraf

You bring some possibly valid points. Realistically I think they were most likely nominally Muslim to begin with. You are right there were likely a good percentage "non-practicing" Muslim. But that is sort of my point.

Here we go:

Some people claim that 99% Of Iranians are Muslim and the majority are practicing. In fact they argue that most Iranians are very religious Muslims. I want to refute that argument. 

My argument is that a significant number of Iranians are not really Muslims. They may believe in God but they do not practice Islam. That is why they "left" Islam. This proves that a large number of Iranians are not really Muslim.

VPK, Dig into the details I shall, BUT

1) No religion  a) Doesn't mean that they were religious to begin with b) Doesn't necessarily assume that they were born into moslem families c) Deciding you don't believe in religion doesn't mean you 'left islam' even if you were moslem to begin with. 

2) Most middle class 'moslem' Iranians were and continue to be NON PRACTICINING, NON BELIEVINING moslems who were just born into a (in a lot of cases non practicing non believing) moslem families.So they can easily say they have no religion (especially when polled). I wouldn't be surprised if most of them said they were moslem if asked by another moslem/Iranian.

And no you don't get beat, shot or jailed by the authorities but depending on where in the US you live you can and do, at least get a heck of lot of grief if you walk around proclaiming you are a Moslem!

That alone would leave your statement a little open to argument wouldn't you agree?

If people have the ability

If people have the ability to be able to tolerate the most vicious attacks on their religion, ideology, and beliefs, it basically means we are ready for serious democratic changes.

I just have to respond to this. 

What does tolerate mean? I say people tolerated it very well. Tolerance does not mean not responding,. It means not going nuts; rioting and making threats. No one went nuts; no one made any threats. No one went rioting. 

People including myself simply used our right to respond. You may not be fond of my response but I responded as I am entitled to. That is what people do in a democracy. I suggest that it is the other side who is not ready for "democracy". When you do not even want us to write a post explaining how you are wrong. You just want to be the only voice. No one is even allowed to oppose you. If we do then "we are not ready for democracy". Sorry, that ain't how democracy works. Open discussion goes both ways.

I saw some of this behavior on a youtube video. It was when Trita Parsi wanted to give a talk in California. The "pro" democracy people just screamed like children to prevent him talking. Now that is maturity and being "ready for democracy". No one gets to talk except me. If anyone else dares oppose me then accuse them of being anti-democracy. Or worse being pro IRI or some other thing. Thankfully most Iranians I know do not behave this way. It is only the self appointed "democracy" types.

Shepesh

There was a blog not long ago about Americans being stupid by a regular on this site.

You are talking about Nilufar Parsi, I often disagree with her over IRI and other issues. I did disagree with her over calling Americans stupid and said so. But she does not use vulgarity in her blogs. I am not talking about "Idiot" I am talking about the hard core xxx vulgarity.

How about those that attack Americans in the same way? Can you see why people do not see a balance in Moderation?

I agree that moderation is sometimes not balanced. I wrote a whole blog on it. I also do not really go for the idea of banning people. Maybe the admin is trying to be more fair and apply the same criteria to all the people. I do not know why Fesenjoon was banned. However I gather it was due to using vulgarity. 

My complaint about Fesenjoon also applies to NP's blog. It was unfair to Americans. I never asked for either to be banned. My point was that I did not like Fesenjoon's blogs because of that reason. This in response to praises being showered upon him. That is  what I meant.

AntiMozakhraf

May I ask what the source of this information is please?

Yes you may. There were polls of Iranian Americans and their religion. The breakdown was:

40 % Mulsim; 40% no religion; 40% other meaning Jewish; Bahai; Christian; Zoroastrian; ..

I figured take out the 20% and that leaves 80%. That 80% was almost definitely all Muslim to begin with. One half of them are now "without religion". That means 1/2 = 50%. There are at least 1 million Iranians in America so the numbers are statistically valid.

You may question the poll. However this is a poll done in America. No one is afraid of telling the truth. No one gets whipped or hanged for religion or not having one.

The research was done by an Iranian in University of Huston Texas. The poll is explained here:

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_American#Reli...

It is all referenced and you may dig into the details for yourself. 

Shepesh

Who are my friends? Not the Islamists and now apparently; now not the other side either :-) Really I don't think anyone is waiting for me to tell them. I guarantee you they will ignore me. But I will try to do so as you want.

I really find no benefit in using rude of vulgar words. If I have done so in the past I apologize. I do believe people should act civil. For Fesenjoon to deliberately be rude then complain about other Iranian people's behavior is laughable.

What fun! From Fesenjoon's email

"It was a social experiment designed to test the reactions of the upper
echelons of Iranians on a supposedly free forum."

LOL!!!  These Iranians of the upper echelons - on IC?  ROFLM!

"If people have the ability to be able to tolerate the most vicious
attacks on their religion, ideology, and beliefs, it basically means we
are ready for serious democratic changes."

U wha'?

"If they chew you up, they still have to spit you out "

Btw admin, except for the utter waste of time of having to open another account if deleted, , it is of course the private website's perogative to do what it likes. However, please, no airs and graces of pretending to be professionally unbiased and all the rest of the chunky soup.

Although I loathe the dish with a vengeance, bring back aggressive Fesenjoon - Fesenjoon, bi khial, bia bazam korsi-sher begoo -  and everyone else from the hells of hellish sin! And give me some form of option of not having to look at certain posts. 

LOL VPK

"However the rules on IC say no vulgarity. You don't need to use vulgar language to get your point. The only thing vulgarity adds is hate. You dish out hate you get back hate. Even from those who agree with your point. "

Well go and tell that your friends as well VPK. Next time one of your friends is rude or vulgar, please come out and tell them. Dont write blogs to defend them. Then I'll believe you are sincere in what you say.

VPK

this is the 2nd time that I am aware of that you have stated '50% of Iranian American "Muslims" left Islam'.

May I ask what the source of this information is please?

Thanks

Rea

There are a Lot of provocative people on IC. But why ban this one so quickly? There was a blog not long ago about Americans being stupid by a regular on this site. And they are rude when they talk to people. I have all these comments recorded even those deleted. The way they talk to foreign people. But because they are Iranian "writers" they get away with it. There are people who have made racist comments to non Iranians but are still active on IC. Admin act according to WHO YOU ARE, not content. Poeple here think it is only IRI supporters who are abusive, but it is not true. But Admin act according to what to them seems popular, they forget they owe same loyalty to all IC users who love the site equally.

VPK said this - "He attacked the Iranian people with the most unfair accusations." How about those that attack Americans in the same way? Can you see why people do not see a balance in Moderation? How can someone who writes hate blogs on America be OK but someone who write the same against Iran not?

"One less

 'Iranian Hating Iranian' on this Iranian website is welcome. Although he can always come back under a different user name." Thought to himself, Hazrate shotor.

Acknowledged, thx

But, but. 

In case you are reading, F/joon. Well articulate, yes you are. Provocative, yes you are. 

However, from my experience, certain things can only be said en face. You know, when people can bang on the table and say: "listen you bastard, shut the fucking up". Afterwards, they share a bottle of good wine and they agree to disagree.

In comparison, virtual communication is not easy. People don't know you, they don't understand your trying to provoke by using extremes as examples. 

If I recall well, hard die-atheist I am I objected once to AO's insulting religion. For I've learnt with time, the more offensive you get, the more offensive they get. And that is but one example.

Bref, it's just virtual. If you care, you come back.

My 2 cents. And out of here.

PS. my comment goes to show I've been following this blog, even if it doesn't seem so. ;o) 

Response to AO's Fesenjoon letter #1

but at the same time used the most vulgar language possible to attack people's belief systems. There is no point in striving toward democracy if people cant accept diversity of opinions, and dont want to coexist with their opposition, however vulgar and vicious the opposition may be. We'll be simply trading the crown and the turban again for something yet similar again. I should have the freedom to call Iranians stupid, call Mohammad's mother a whore, use words like koskesh and khayehmal to describe muslims in Iran, and yet be protected by people who necessarily DONT believe in what I say. THAT, is when you know you have seeds of democracy planted in your society. But alas we have shown that we dont.

This is what cracks me up! People's belief system? What makes you think Islam is people's belief system? The fact that 50 % of Iranian America "Muslims" left Islam does not validate this claim. You guys just keep repeating the same "misinformation" that IRR does. Just saying it does not make it true. 

I am fine with people having the right to say whatever they want. But don't be surprised if I respond. I generally prefer not to use vulgar words in my response. However the rules on IC say no vulgarity. You don't need to use vulgar language to get your point. The only thing vulgarity adds is hate. You dish out hate you get back hate. Even from those who agree with your point. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. My problem was never the language. It was the content which was untrue.

From what I see there are people in any ideology who don't want to tolerate others. They exists in America; Iran; Egypt and other places. This is to be expected. You may not tar all people with the same brush. I have said this until "zaboonam moo dar avord". But "alas" it is a waste of time talking to some people since they do not listen. 

No AO, we're not ready yet. Maybe Tunis and Egypt are. But we arent. And we wont be, as long as we continue to draw red lines when it comes to freedom of speech. Either JJ opens my account, or I'm not coming back. And if he doesnt, well, at least now you know why." 

So the whole Iranian nation was waiting for Fesenjoon to give the green light. And he did not! Oops I guess we have to wait until he decides we are ready. I have news: whatever happens in Iran will happen regardless of what AO; VPK {me}; Fesenjoon or any single individual thinks. Best we can do it to try to be of help.

Attacks on religion

IC has had people attacking Islam for years. It has been very tolerant of it. We did not need Fesenjoon's "experiment" to find that out. I have been attacking Islam for years as have many others. None of us got banned. 

Fesenjoon did not just attack Islam. He attacked the Iranian people with the most unfair accusations. You may find them funny or talented. But they were indiscriminate attacks. No way around it. Should he be banned? I would not have banned him. But it is the admin's decsision not mine. This is a private site after all. We do not set policy. When I go to someone's house I do not walk in with a list of demands.

I had a guest who came to my house last yea with her 5 year old kid. The kid started to wreck all my kids toys. The mother did not lift a finger to stop him. She then started demanding I take her to various stores; malls. At some point I had to leave her for an hour to get one of my kids from some class. The guest got very angry at my lack of attention and threatened to leave. I showed her the door. When a guest misbehaves; the host is not obligated to put up with any *** the guest is piling on them.

FYI: The guest was not Iranian; she was full born and raised American.

Escape

I will respond right here; and make it short:

• Iranian people are not the same as Iranian government.
• According to USA law people are innocent unless proven guilty. So that applies to Iranian students as well as other people.
• Hence: Iranian students must be treated same as anyone else; get it?

PS,

1) MKO is a terrorist organization by American law. I do not see how someone is pro America and MKO. It is like being AQ and pro America. MKO is also a traitor to Iran.  You will find Iranians from right to left agreeing with this. I am pro Iran. MKO is anti Iran. They sold Iran to Russia. Then to Saddam and now to AIPAC. They will never be accepted by Iranians. The best they could expect it jail for leadership and some kind of probation and amnesty for rank and file. Nothing more.

2)  I do not see too many people in Iran chanting "Death to America" your tapes are old. 30 year old video is not valid. I do see a lot of American right wingers effectively wishing for Obama to fail. How about that? Do they get to go to Stanford!

VPK I put America first.I'm a racist MKO

And I like your little paragraph-they should not be Hezbollah or MKO. Yes,go on...Can You perhaps 'Elaborate'?? What basis does an American University have to go on when accepting student to University's? Iran's word? You and the NIAC must really thnk American's are stupid.

I stand by the professor.To the day.I hope you get over it soon and perhaps I will too.But to you and the rest of those who jumped on that ship : You think it's racist for an American to be concerned for America's safety.Well I'm sorry honey,American's put America first.

The reasons:

America is under attack from Islamists.

Iranians continue to chant Death to America.

And you say-So what?Let's stop right there.Why do you think that is nothing?It's not just a few people in Iran,that is a insult to any American's intelligence.It's a habitual thing,natural Friday Afternoon isn't it? The Govt-Like the professor said in the email- The Govt at this time is Highly Anti-American.

so not only was that emailing INFORMING THAT STUDENT OF THE TRUTH,You run to try to HIDE IT from him.And then claim your interest is his - E D U C A T I O N.

If you want to respond,I made a special blog for you to respond to.This way our conversation does not muddy up this water anymore.

//iranian.com/main/blog/escape/new-age-art-ic-amadinejhad-goes-stanford