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VPK

Did I even mention the word "Islamist" in my last post? Why do you keep making fuckin assumptions about me?

agha jaan, velemoon kon!

Fesenjoon

Parthianshot is not an Islamist. Why do you make assumptions about people? Just because someone does not agree with you does not make them an Islamist. Nor does it mean they are wrong. 

Hey ParthianShot

Bodo. Bodo. Daad bezan:

Death To America! :-)

Don't confuse Islamic culture with Iranian

In islam it's okay to lie, aslong as it serves the islamic agenda, but in the Iranian/Persian culture, whoever practices fully, it is very wrong to lie. Just search how the ancient Persians lived.

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"They are not afraid of the ideology alone, but of the detemination and will of the men behind it"

Complain, Complain, complain

 What do you do other than complain? You seriously never suggest anything to be done, and with that kind of approach you will never solve anything, but rather discourage people from doing anything to solve any kind of problem that faces them.

Imagine if people constantly called you a peice of sh!t that would never achieve anything, now if I was your typical person, I would be affected by this in a much negative way than positive. If you want people to change than suggest and lead them towards the right path rather than complaining all the time.

 --------------------------------------------------------------

"They are not afraid of the ideology alone, but of the detemination and will of the men behind it"

Interesting

I used to think like him too.

I used to think like you!  Experience does not always make us go the same way.

But once one reaches a certain level of
experience in life, the "aberoo" factor he's so worried about no longer
seems satisfactory enough.

It is not Aberoo factor. It is accuracy. I do not like to make inaccurate generalization. Not that I don't ever do that. But I try to avoid them.

One starts looking inward for answers,
instead of putting the blame on external forces.

I do look inwards however I do not presume to speak for other people. Iranian or not.  I am not in a position to look inwards at all Iranians. I will just look at myself.

One basically becomes tired of seeing the same things over and over and over again for 35 years. It's a lifetime, you know. 

Well, that is the way things are. History repeats itself and does not care if we mind.

Fesenjoon

I stand corrected here. You did offer some practical solutions; good. I rather focus more on solutions since the problem is pretty well known.

Regarding the economy: IRI  along with USA have totally wrecked Iranian economy. I see no solution as long as Islamic Republic remains. Meanwhile for each person we help IRI will hang two or ten.

Regarding Iranica. Thanks; I had not thought of it. I am not rich but got enough to help. I will.

Regarding politics: I love to have Iranian Americans in the house of representatives. That is one reason I do not want us to be konw and liars and idiots (which we are not).

Why not make more suggestions? Take the hopeful approach over gloomy one.

Thank you

Doktor Mohandes

VPK's reaction is OK. I was, after all, expecting some severe reaction, because of this and other blogs. I dont mind him attacking me that much. I used to think like him too. But once one reaches a certain level of experience in life, the "aberoo" factor he's so worried about no longer seems satisfactory enough. One starts looking inward for answers, instead of putting the blame on external forces. One basically becomes tired of seeing the same things over and over and over again for 35 years. It's a lifetime, you know. 

***

Oh wow. I love the Riverwalk there! I once went there at night, between Thanxgvng and Xmas. It was amazing. The Hill Country there also reminds me of the rural areas of the lower Zagros mts. Very Iranophilic! Besides, youve got an excellent NBA team there! Let's see if they can beat the Lakers this time :-)

VPK

You keep claiming that I have "never offered any practical suggestions."

Well, youre too busy always attacking me instead of my arguments. Be a bit more tolerant, and youll see that I actually have made practical suggestions.

Doctor Mohandes

We are both repeating ourselves. I do get what you say; just don't agree. You probably get what I say but don't agree. So we can keep going at it or just agree to disagree.

I have not bad mouthed anyone; but if you like to think I did then go right ahead. Just do me a favor and produce some proof of me bad mouthing someone. Did I call anyone idiot or liar? Or what that the blogger? It is ironic but typical: bad mouth people; then when someone speaks out accuse him of bad mouthing. Very clever.

I have read many of Fesenjoon's blogs. He has never offered any practical suggestions.  Of course there are liars and cheaters in Iran. But it is no different than anywhere else. If you want to fix mankind then you got a big job. Go for it. If you think you will "fix" Iranians by calling them liars and idiots then good luck. You will need it.

Anyway you go do your thing and I will do my thing.  I have said my part for now.

VPK

You are yet again going off on a tangent and missing the whole point Compeletly. I hate to be going over this with you again and again:))

These are no inflammatory remarks, And resorting to aggrandization on your pary won't debunk jack. these are facts that exist in iran and they are facing it (the people) and fesenjoon is right in addressing them. And i agree with him,. It is time TO HEAR suggestion in order for these flaws to be removed, That is why blogs such as this one are even written, It is time. Let's us talk about it and let us find solutions.

Do something? fine. then DO SOMETHING. you DO SOmething. You need to stop bad mouthing everyone for daring to speak their voices. You are the one who gets unneccessarily upset over Facts and start Bad o birahing  zamin o zamoon!

If someone is Unintelligent enough, oh heck let's just say the word, Dumb enough to just browse over the title and take into heart just the title, and on that basis thinks what you just said,  then that person, as a superficial being as he or she is, is not needed around here or anywhere in the world . we want people who read things actually and think things through. No need for Browsers and opinion-mongers. No we need not to go the reverse direction VPK, but that IS NOT what is being said here.

I will not be an Ahmagh Kale Khar entrepreneur to just as i said, Make my decisions based on some Title. If i see a provocative one i will read to see what the hell is all about. What about you? If you see an article with the title saying the same thing about americans (which there was and you went into elaborate analysis of your deep views on that topic, as a matter of fact.!!) or russians. would that be enough of evidence for you to not go near any americans or russians? Why don't you think about what you say??

Again. If i were in that position, like any sane and ba shoor Human i would judge on a case by case. Just because Mike Tyson is a Kale shagh and bites his opponents ears to win a match, does not make someone else qualified to be judged by the same set of standards. WHy is this even a matter of doubt for you?

I am NOT denying any of those nefarious activities in the world. Sure. Right. they arethere, Need to be confronted with. MOst definitely. I just don't get it why you have got it in your head, that mentioning that we have problems in iran, automatically means that the rest of the world has a clean record and is Free of sin!!!! and then you base your arguments solely and erroneously on such basis.

Doctor Mohandes

For years I have said that Islam is *the* problem with Iran. Nothing is new. However I do not launch a broadside labeled "Iranians are liars". I have said "Islamists are liars": it is called tagiyyeh; I know it. I have made many  criticisms of Islam but been very clear that Iran != Islam. Inflammatory remarks like those of this blogger are not the best approach. Someone must debunk them. Plus I have not yet heard one suggestion as "how to improve" from this blogger.

On the other hand many others have done helpful things. From publicizing executions to forming lobby groups. Those while imperfect are at least some step. Others like the blogger just sit around and write "Ayeh-e yaes" or "voice of gloom". How does this help? If you are upset then DO SOMETHING.

Please remember that IC is a big deal. Many non Iranians read this. Many just gloss over the titles and think: If the Iranians think they are liars, then they must be. For decades we the diaspora have worked to build up "Abero" in the West. I am glad to say with a good deal of success. Now do we really want to go and reverse all of that? 

Imagine you are an employer; or a venture capitalist. You read "Iranians are idiots" or "Iranians are liars". Would you want to do business with an Iranian? Would you give them capital or hire them? If you are a voter in the West would you pick the Iranian candidate? Thank god we have Iranians elected to office already. This is important. 

Plus how  do you explain similar problems in the world. How do you explain rampant pirating in China. Or deep corruption in the US political and judicial system. They are in many ways just as corrupt as anything in Iran. Not to mention the theft in the Financial Industry. Wall Street stole more money than even the Mollahs have managed. 

I ask people to be fair. Not to single out one group and make unfair accusations. 

Doostan

VPK

whoa! whoa! there mr. Peyghambar. taake it easy there now tiger:))

If you look at those three issues that you  brought up once more and think them through, you will realize that all of them were brought up because of the system that is ruling our nation, hence the main point of this blog. He is saying look, we are going through all this crap because of IT. Now, how is that demonizing iranians in any shape or form??

The last three sentences in the blog says it all.

Extreme right wing positions?? shhh... whatever man

rght there! that is an indication and the evidence of you going too far.!!

Fesenjoon:

San Antonio:) The capital of Tejano music. ayyy ayy ayyy...chiquitaa mas bonita....

Doktor Mohandes

If it's OK for me to ask,

Houston or DFW?

Doctor Mohandes

Here are some more of his "examples"

• Software and video pirating: Iran is not even a significant offender. The main pirating is done in former East Block nations; Russia; China and right here in USA.
• Lying to Pasdaran: I already explained it is lying to protect an innocent. To me that is not a vice; rather a virtue. Would you turn over a Jew to the Nazi?
• Fake credentials: It is so common in the USA that high level jobs do verifications. It is by no means an "Iranian" invention.

I am just pointing out the unfair nature of this blog. You want to dismiss my statements; go ahead. You say I go too far??? Am I the one condemning a whole nation and a whole race? No my friend it is your darling blogger; and you by supporting him.

Demonization is the first step to marginalization and destruction of a race. Some of us are foolish enough to be active participants in demonization of Iranians. You people need to look at your own extreme right wing positions. 

Speaking of fish

I had some for lunch:))

Doctor Mohandes: I can't be seconding you here again, can I???

I am afraid one more seconding here and they may think some thing fishy going on

Or perhaps

that maybe I am "lying" about my seconding you :)

Mehrdad

VPK

You are so obviously blowing everything out of proportion and you are all over the map, I bet that this gets your blood boiling but perhaps you should calm down and analyze matter more rationally.

When the author Brings you specific cases in which lying takes place and dissects it for you, You can not call that an insult and an ugly thing. That is not the same as calling blacks dirty. There is a big difference and i am not sure why you fail to see it. We need to know exactly and in what areas we need more improvement. and this is a sample breakdown of all issues involved.

Your whole take on this blog is wrong. Many of the issues brought up in this blog are applicable to the iranians outside of iran and are what governs their relationship and the way treat one another. You , as usual, and i see with many of your posts, are taking matters too far and are giving it a whole new theme.

AO

I already said I am all for self examination. I am all for improving ourselves. What I am not for is a barrage of non stop insults rained upon Iranians. Highly exaggerated and making wild generalizations. 

Regarding Zerangi while the word is Persian the idea is not. In fact we are years behind America in sophistication.

• The Financial Industry in USA; they call cheating "innovation". 
• How about the whole idea of modern advertisement. Worse than any zerangi I ever saw.
• How about the rewriting of history in the "historical dramatization". An example: movie "300".
• How about governmental lies aka "mis-information".

The blogger has thought me more about some diaspora members than "Iranians". It is by positions people take that their nature is revealed. It also gave me insight to why some many "ordinary" Iranians in the 70's disliked the elite. The elite who packed up; left; and now trashes Iranians; providing no solutions.

I also now understand why some diaspora so much want Iranians bombed to death. After all why should they attach any value to these "lying; stupid" people anyway.

Shame.

Mehrdad

I Just got through seconding you in Vilemose's blog! We are having this bond and this connection. How kueoooll...

are VPK jan. Sakht nageer. Ye chayi Bezan halet ja biad:))

Doctor Mohandes & Mehrdad

I will reply to each point:

• I am a human being and like all others am not 100% honest or free of lies. However I have tried and dare say done a very good job at it. No one is perfect and we all lie. To me the standard*is* how close we are to honestly. I would lie to save the life of an innocent human being and find no shame in it.  I hope you do as well. I do not lie to take advantage of others. Nor do I "hoodwink" other people. Or cheat other people knowingly or break a freely given promise. 
•  Of course we should have self criticism. However it should be based on facts. No question that there are elements in Iranian culture that need reform. There are bad habits we have. On the other hand saying "Iranians are liars" is like saying "blacks are dirty". Both are racist and inflammatory meant to insight anger not reform. As some person said "you attract more files with honey than vinegar". If you want reform, show respect; then point out problems.
• The blogger clearly is singling out Iranians. Implying that lying is uniquely common amongst Iranians. Or that Iranians lie as a matter of nature and not because of vital necessity. Why not point out that all repressed people in dictatorships lie. Who is not going to say "I love fearless leader" when not saying so means death? That is not a weakness; it is simply self preservation. There is no point addressing it whilst the threat looms above them.

I ask all of you: what would you do? Imagine living in a society where the wrong word get you hung from a crane. Or the labeled "enemy of God". You are all sitting behind your computers in nice safe West. Then complaining about lives of people you have lost touch with.

I used to think there is a place for diaspora in a future Iran. I still do. However not with this crop.

VPK Jaan - This person is not anti-Iran

There is nothing wrong about bringing up the negative aspects of our culture.  That is the only way that we can improve ourselves.  We have a tendency in our culture to take advantage of laws--and of each other by extension--and that contributes to the mess that we're in now.  I think that a little more honesty can go a long way in our society. We even applaud people who find sneaky ways of doing things.  We call it "zerangi."

VPK, I second Doctor mohandes point

 (and that is the third time I am seconding him in just a few of days)  :)

The fact that you have been able to keep honest your entire life is truly admirable, I wish I could say the same for myself.

However I have had a pact with myself for a few years now to be completely honest and I know it has not been easy. There are those times that is so much easier or politer to just not say any thing or when pressed say it as you truly feel but one can lie just by keeping quite.

You see, my criteria for honesty is not that it has to be malicious or harmful to others in order to be a lie, a simple "yeah the food was great" when I think otherwise or an exaggeration during a job interview that my livelihood depends on it is just a lie as any.

If you have not been around Iranian that CONSTANTLY lie, that again, I am happy for you and I think it is remarkable as my experience has been otherwise. Again, a lie does not have to result in a malicious or harmful thing to others. Any time one is mislead or not corrected when they mislead themselves, that is a lie even if you have not spoken a word.

Mehrdad

VPK

Funny, out of the huge part of the blog that was devoted to highlight the specifics of the iranians' ways and mannerism, you managed to pick out the one tiny part tha may have made a reference  to the IRI, and made a whole big deal about it and called it "mixing Iri and iranians"?

I live in Texas. A state that will soon be on its own and idependent of the rest of the federation LOL , thanks to Gov. "good hair" perry (he is FED UP, you know) and i have heard those lies you are talking about. Politicians everywhere lie and mislead/misinform. That is why i said this blog . to me at least, is not about that subject and about the inner workings of the Iranian people, and what they do to each other. It is a strong possibility that this is heavily influenced by The "IRI" But that does not mean that one should be accused of equating the two.

The Venom that this anger turns into is precisely what has stuck on this Bloggers' craws and makes him mad. (am I right aghaye blog nevis?) and that is exactly what i have been harping about as well. that is what needs fixing.

Who said anything about westerners being superior. particularly in this blog? Your adding things on now! Look. If things are the way they are, then wouldn't you say we need to make some changes? What is wrong with some self-criticism? Let's us take steps that will change things for the better.

I agree with the last part, It stinks to high heavens But that is not what is being talked about here.

Doctor Mohandes

This is not about mixing iri with the real iranian.

Well then why is the blogger sighting Islamic Republic behavior as examples. He is mixing them.

This is really what has been the case for years and yet we have for various reasons tried to keep it under the wrapps and not address it. Generally speaking you will find good ones and bad ones from any cultural, ethnic, economical and national background, that is just part of being a human i suppose,
but other humans from other cultures have found ways of remedying the situation, except for us. What have we done?

I don't know where you live but I live in the United States. In my over 30 years here I have heard vast among of lies. From politicians to businesses. The politicians call it "mis-information". What about the WMD that has cost so many lives? What about the stolen 2000 and 2004 elections? The difference is that American lies cost more lives. 

The gist of this is this: many Iranian diaspora are angry. Some put their anger to use or  do nothing. And others turn it into a venom directed at their own people. That latter is what I have a problem with.

What makes me the most sick is how others cheer him on. I am disgusted with many in the IC community and have lost respect I once had. Yes, it is simple to say "you are right";"oh we are terrible;"oh Westerners are so superior". But it is a cop out. 

This is exactly what alienated many Iranians from the pre-revolution elite. The "elite" contempt for Iranian people. They were all so anxious to pretend to be: Az ma behtaroon bashand. Pretending to be European after a two week trip. Pretending to be American by changing their names. The whole attitude stinks and makes me sick.

VPK

Your efforts in maintaining a semblance of honesty and decency in your entire life is definitely admirable but This blogger has a point and in fact a very valid point at that. I am not sure though, to what extent i blame islam per se as a cause, but nevertheless i agree with the gist of it all.

This is not about mixing iri with the real iranian. This is really what has been the case for years and yet we have for various reasons tried to keep it under the wrapps and not address it. Generally speaking you will find good ones and bad ones from any cultural, ethnic, economical and national background, that is just part of being a human i suppose, but other humans from other cultures have found ways of remedying the situation, except for us. What have we done?

I see this as more of a critique of certain forms of behaviors and mannerism displayed by iranians (as was the case with his previous blog) rather than some kind of denigration and / or put down. these are serious issues. It has spread into every fiber of our cultural being and hence has played a great part in forming a dysfunctional society.

Iranian aren't liars

This is Islam base on lies so for people to survive they need to lie and that makes Iranian look like liars. When Arabs took over Iran (like now) they have to use death and fear to stay in power so we Iranian started the double life like Golshiftehsaid. If Islam was such a peaceful religion then why so much blood. We are not liar we had to lie so much with this religion that now it got in to our daily life . 

Mehrdad

I have tried honesty for my whole life and it is not difficult. Yes sometimes I have to keep my mouth shut. But I do not generally lie or mislead. It is neither hard nor a problem. In fact it makes life a lot simpler: I don't have to come up with more lies to cover up the original one. It is simple and very workable.

I think

the blogger is once again mixing up Islamic Republic and Iranians. He also confuses Iranians with hard core Muslims.

Not to mention ignores all the lies in other religions. Plus confusing belief in religious mobo jumbo with everyday lies.I have dealt with plenty of find; good; truthful and honorable Iranians.

I have also seen Americans; Russians and plenty of others lie. What do you call the political ads in USA but lies? What do you call Fox "news" but lies. What do you call the Soviet "democracy" but lies? How about the vilification of Jews by Nazis? Or the "virgin" birth; Or that Jesus is "God". 

The problem with the blogger is that he ignores all of these but picks on Iran. By deliberately confusing IRI officials with Iranian people he misleads. He must think we are really stupid. Of course he does since he only sees negative thing he n Iranians.

I have to say I have never known a racist; Iranian hater like this person. Spreading lies and non stop hate against Iranian people. At least if it was right I would not mind it.  Or if he said"all humans" are liars. Since Iranians are no different from others.

I have a suggestion for this blogger. If you hate Iranians so much: get another citizenship then deny ever being Iranian. Your problem is solved. Then your sense of superiority will be satisfied; you won't be that "horrible" Iranian anymore. 

"Hajagha, he says Iranians are liers, is it true?"

I asked Hazrate shotor sheepishly.

"If true, then, he is lier, his father is a lier, his brother is a lier, his grandfather is a lier, his mother is a lier Va Ala Akar." Responded Hazrated shotor.

"He must be another one of those Iranian Hating Iranians on this website". I murmured.

"Ahsant, Ahsant". said he, getting ready for his afternoon nap.