IRANdokht

Jamshid, Q,--Cries and Whispers

Jamshid, Q, when I was a child, my mother took me to Ingmar Bergman films. I saw "Cries and Whispers". It was a very violent and disturbing film for a nine year old. A wife mutilated her genitalia for her husband to see the gaping wound. But my mother wanted me to see the truth and I had to see it.l

Your history is a gaping wound. But you cry and whisper. The "left" cries about peace but whispers about human rights because they're afraid if they cry it out it will sway world opinon and usher in war. The center-right cries about freedom but whispers about how the only reason they want sanctions uprising or foreign intervention is because they feel desperate and they're too proud to cry it out. They yearn for peace like every decent person but they feel desperate. Everybody cries about what they consider to be first on their "agenda" and whispers about core beliefs they relegate to "secondary".

And then Bakhtiar becomes the political football of an agenda? I don't really understand this. But Jamshid I know that Q's seniors were your seniors too. It was you Jamshid who explained courageously on Nazy's thread, "Our Generation" last year that you were ALL betrayed by your leaders.  I know on my own about that Bouramond sister who found Khomeini's work on Velayate Faghi in the Paris library of the National Front and told the leaders, "This man is dangerous" and they scoffed her off. They KNEW. They betrayed ALL of you. You Jamshid were practically the only one here who was courageous enough to say over and over again that Iranians were REPSONSIBLE for their destiny. How did they suddenly become just Q's seniiors  in the  months that I was away?  (Morghe-Tofaan--I address myself implicitly to you AGAIN).

Who is the coward? Who is the hero? You're all just WOUNDED. Is Q cowardly for voicing a minority opinon here even if it sounds confrontational?  Is that COWARDLY? Is Jamshid brave  for talking about Q's seniors when he was the pioneer in pointing out they wer4e EVERYBODY's seniors? Who is cowardly? Who is brave? I'm sorry, you're both talking in cries and whispers

I challenged you both last year. I said if you can make peace with each other ANYONE can. Seven months later. . Such gaping wounds. I challenge you again.  Before I leave here, I too am torn to shreads. You both know how much. I have NOTHING to lose. You BOTH told me last week you were "disapponted in me" for the way I talked to Amir. Exact same words. Mirrors of each other, tearing each other, yourselves, into shreads. I love you both. I challenge you again. Please!\

Truth and reconciliaton. Here. Now.. If you can do it, anyone can.

Robin

Jamshid, your own secret selfless efforts have paid off!

All that hate speech, insults and stalking you do, waiting for me to say something so you can "expose" me has finally paid off. You have finally exposed me.

Yes, I secretly LOVE assassinations. You have brilliantly deduced this after hours of tireless analysis of my writing. Yes, me and my superior Arab occupier brothers killed Bakhtiar, enslaved 99% of the population and are now plotting to silence Bakhtiar's memory on Iranian.com. It almost would have worked too had it not been for your cunning brilliance!

The important thing to remember is that your life is really meaningful now. You have done something that makes a real difference. What a great feeling it must be!

Congratualtions. Give yourself a pat in the back. You have done a great service for Iran requiring much effort and sacrifice. Maybe now you can finally spend time with your family. Great going! Dorood bar shoma!

[ "L" sign to the forehead. ]

A Reader,

You wrote:

"o I think Shapour Bakhtiar was a great man. BUT, I believe there are other points of view about him. More than you see here. So instead of congratulating ourselves on how much we all agree on Mr. Bakhtiar, we should also look to see if the thread has been condusive to expressing opposing points of view. I think it has not."

It is interesting to see that the logic you and people like you present here, on iranian.com, never seems to apply to what you write.

To begin with, why can't you see what "another reader" wrote in response to your post as "another view?" What are you so upset about?

Secondly, those who are writing about Dr. Bakhtiar on this thread already know there were and still are "other points of view about him." Hell, they even know Dr. Bakhtiar was murdered, in cold blood, by terrorists hired by the Ruling Terrorists in Tehran who held "other points of view about him."

Thirdly, why beating about the bush? Why such implicit sophistry? Why not do as others have done and accuse Dr. Bakhtiar of the things he was not?
You also had another option, you know. You could simply ignore the thread, altogether.

Lastly, the thread has been "condusive to opposing points of view," but you cannot see that, because the views expressed are tinged with the kind of politeness you don't seem to have grasped!

Re: Q

You wrote, "I certainly don't approve of assassinations."

What about condemning it? Do you condemn the assasination of Dr. Bakhtiar, or Farokhzad, or hundreds of others who were killed in the chain murders in Iran?

Or, is it sufficient for you to just "not approve" it, in other words, turn your face the other way?

You wrote, "he (Bakhtiar) really should have known better than to take the position"

The fact that unlike many others, he neither rolled to the side lines nor did he bow to Khomeini, and instead he stood by his principles, is a tribute to his commitment and faith. Your own argument is proof that Bakhtiar did not care for himself, he only had Iran in his mind.

And at the end of your post, you just couldn't resist the temptation to display your cowardice by spewing dirt against a good man, the same kind of cowardice and the same kind of dirt that I witnessed with my own eyes being prouldy displayed by your seniors in 1979.

Don't you have a shred of decency Q? How low are you willing to sink in the sweage of your all-consuming oghdeh? Although it must be "too little too late" for you to ever wake up, but still I sincerely hope that some day you succeed in crawling out of your lie-hate-fear dugout and see the light for once.

To Another Reader

I think it is pretty ludicrous of you to presume my intentions. You think I asked irandokht to be quiet because she is a woman?? You are wrong.

o It is EQUALLY awful when men AND women feel obliged to reply to every single comment with silly compliments on this site. It makes following real conversations very difficult. That's all. One can stay away from the lighter posts where this is more prevalent. It is harder to stay away from the more serious posts like this one, hence why I even care.

o I think Shapour Bakhtiar was a great man. BUT, I believe there are other points of view about him. More than you see here. So instead of congratulating ourselves on how much we all agree on Mr. Bakhtiar, we should also look to see if the thread has been condusive to expressing opposing points of view. I think it has not.

o I think people who write for the site must not force readers to have one on one conversations with them. Let them talk to each other if they want to do it. There is no need for the original writer to be in the middle of every comment. That's what I meant.

o I think in a round about way, and I apologize for this if I wasn't clear, I did acknowledge the original poster's important contribution for putting the issue on the table. Irandokht is certainly one of the articulate members of this site, so no offense intended to her.

from another other reader...

i know, i know. her again...but Bakhtiar has been so important for the movement of this website toward Truth and Reconciliation  that it is impossible for me to resist commenting. 

Q can be abrasive, But on this thread you better thank your lucky stars for Q.  Without him pretty soon you'll be seeing Bakhtiar's face on the moon, and that's the LAST thing you need.  The very last thing. (Morgeh-tofaan--I address your concern implicitly).

I'm with A Reader. Q attacking someone in "buckets" because of who they are? Q discriminatory? Q is an equal opportunity attacker. To accuse him of being otherwise is projection...pure projection.

LOL

Robin

Shapour Bakhtiar

Shapour Bakhtiar was trying to save the Shah's sinking ship. The Shah's government collapsed when he had that 2500 celebration that the Shah did not deserve.

What does wikipedia say about Bakhtiar?

At the end of 1978, as the Shah's power was crumbling; because Bakhtiar had been a leader in the resistance, he was chosen to help in the creation of a civilian government in place of the military one, which had existed up to this point. He was appointed to the position of Prime Minister by the Shah, as a concession to his opponents, especially the followers of the Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini. Although this caused him to be expelled from the National Front, he accepted the appointment, as he feared a revolution, in which communists and mullahs would take over the country, because he thought this would ruin Iran. In his 36 days as premier of Iran, Bakhtiar ordered all political inmates to be freed, lifted censorship of newspapers (whose staff had until then been on strike), relaxed martial law, ordered the dissolving of SAVAK (the former regime's secret police) and requested that the opposition give him three months to hold elections for a constituent assembly that would decide the fate of the monarchy and determine the future form of government for Iran. Despite these conciliatory gestures, Ayatollah Khomeini refused to collaborate with Bakhtiar, denouncing the premier as a traitor for siding with the Shah, labeling his government "illegitimate" and "illegal" and calling for the overthrow of the Monarchy. Bakhtiar made some key mistakes during his premiership including allowing Khomeini to re-enter Iran. In the end, he failed to rally even his own former colleagues in the National Front behind him and his government was overwhelmingly rejected by the masses, except for a very small number of pro-Shah loyalists and some moderate pro-democratic elements. The opposition was not willing to compromise and the Shah was forced to leave the country in January of 1979; Bakhtiar left Iran again for France in April of the same year.

see:
//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shapur_Bakhtiar

Bakhtiar was not an effective leader.

His downfall was totally his own fault.

another reader...

You nailed it... totally right on.  DAMET GARM!

Yet another example of double standards by men... (you hear that babycakes? :-))

M... it's your article... we're all behind you.  No, better yet, we're standing strong beside you.

No confusion : I am not " a Reader" !!

And I'm sorry if by my previous comment I mislead anybody here.

I must add that personally, I didn't see anything wrong in the Irandokht reply to Q....also I am not here to judge anybody.

So, my last comment is deleted.

Thanks.

To: another reader

Thanks,

You made me laugh so hard that beer came out of my nose.......LOLOLOL

Yeah, I started my happy hour early today!

CHEERS 

Q

I also agree with Souri there. Politically speaking, at the time, the move was not wise. What Sanjabi did was wise in that lapse. But look at the long run now. Look at how history will remember Bakhtiar and how it will remember Sanjabi.
He took the captaincy of a sinking ship, he took a major risk for himself and in the end he paid for it with his life. But he stood by his principles to the end. He stood for the constitution, he stood for the democracy that the same constitution was supposed to be about, he warned against what would happen later, and he made his voice heard. He put his country above his own life by taking that risk.
Most importantly, he set a model for believing in all that and democracy itself.
I wonder if you can see that.

That's right!

Who do you think you are?

You're responding to everyone who is addressing you and commenting on your blog? che poroo!!!

You think you invented Bakhtiar? or iranian.com?

Don't you realize you're just a woman?

the privilege of discussing matters is saved for men on their blogs, like Farhad Kashani, Q, Sadegh, and all the other guys who you see discussing politics.... uhhh.... and yeah Rosie too coz she's not an iranian woman so she's allowed to reply and comment.

STOP and khodeto sangin rangin negah dar like an iranian woman should, balayeh harfeh bozorg tar ham harf nazan.

You brought up a topic for us to discuss, so stand back mesleh khanooma, and let us discuss it.

de heh!

Q, I understan your logic, but in my opinion:

What Bakhtiar did, was at least " to make a difference"....Imam
Hussein too, was very well aware of his suicide, but if he wouldn't go to Karbala, there would be no example of courage and standing for opinion by the Islamist.

Dr Bakhtiar, had an ideology, he was a real nationalist and he gave
all his life for his idea. People like Bakhtiar, Imam Hossein and
Golsorkhi wrote the history. They made a difference in the world and
it's political evolution. We all, recall Bakhtiar with respect, do we
recall Bazargan or others, the same way ? For sure not !

I always admire people who stand firmly by their opinion, whether I agree
with them or not. As long as these people have a strong ideology based
on the interests of the majority and not only for a personal ambition.

Your logic is that, Bakhtiar shouldn't accept the position offered by a
failed system. I believe this was what he must do and he did. At least
he transmit his voice to his country.
Respectfully

Father of Iranian Secularism

I am amazed and encouraged by the number of supporting comments about Zendeh Yad Dr. Bakhatir.
He was obviously betrayed by Army and old friends from Jebeh Melli.
But how about us? Where were we during those tumultuous days and more important than what did we do? Did we take our responsibly toward our nation seriously or caught up in emotions and euphoria?
What can we do today to avoid asking our selves 30 years from now, What IF?

Q!

Your post is a disguised attempt at describing your hatred for the Shah which by your own statement “His appointment was a blatent attempt by the Shah to pander to the opposition” you have extended to include Bakhtiar.  The Shah made a concession.  In political terms it is called a compromise but you characterize it as “pander to the opposition”.  Compromising is negative and intellectually inferior, in your world view, and must be viewed with the utmost suspicion.  Had the Shah not made the compromise and taken a strong stance he would have been damned, but the fact is he did accept a compromise and yet he is still damned, and by extension, in your hate filled universe, bakhtiar who was doomed to be manipulated by a blatant panderer, was not worthy of a chance. 

It was only preordained to be "too little too late." because people like yourself thought that way and would not give the man a chance.  Many though have changed their position and have come around to believe he was the last chance for Iran, before it plunged into the pitiful state it is in now, but we the people denied him the chance and we regret it.   

Irandokht

Why do you have to reply to every comment? Calm down and take it easy! Your more humble position of offering something for group discussion suits you better than replying to every comment as thought you just invented or discovered Shahpour Bakhtiar.

Just look at your reply comment to Q, and see how many strong negative words you have used in them. Calm down, take a deep breath, and keep quiet. This discussion could have been really beautiful if you would just let people say their pieces without fear of a lashback from you. You have said enough. You can stop now.

Q

By the time Bakhtiar became prime minister, the collapse of the monarchy was already beyond the point of no return. So while in that sense it is agreed that success was virtually impossible, the vision he had for Iran, had he been given more time, would have resulted in success. If he had become prime minister, let's say, even 6 months earlier, we could very easily be looking at very different outcome.

But, we'll never know. And that's probably the worst part of all.

Q

first of all: the idea was to explain the mentality of the iranians, the actual Trial by drowning of the witches has not been proven a myth, they just have different versions and takes of those events.

Although I have been a fan of your ideas and agreed with a lot of the stands you have made on this site, I am very disappointed to see your comment here. Obviously people fall into buckets for you too and there is no way you would hear what is being said, only who's saying it.

"Too little too late" refers to what Shah's mistake was, as for Dr Bakhtiar, he gave "all" he had including his life and he did what he had to do when the opportunity to do it.

I am also appalled to see you repeating that awfully insulting slogan on this blog, showing no respect for anyone who has been involved in the discussions.

Thanks

IRANdokht

Irandokht,

First, the witch hunt story is inaccurate. I know it's a very popular myth but the practice was never to let the innocent drown, they always pulled them back to the shore. Read the literature.

Second, I can see you are anamoured with Bakhtiar. I was not one of those who accused him of being a drugee or whatever. And I certainly don't approve of assassinations. But I did oppose him on principle and I'm not regretting that. It has nothing to do with how nice a person he was.

I don't see how he could've possibly succeeded. His appointment was a blatent attempt by the Shah to pander to the opposition. His membership in "Jebhe Melli," the credential based on which he was appointed, was revoked immediately and he really should have known better than to take the position.

You mentioned Akbar Ganji. Just look at all the anti IRI voices on this thread, and ask yourself would any of them back Ganji in a time of crisis, if Ganji were to be appointed to some kind of leadership position by Khamenei? You have to imagine this kind of passion in the majority, not the fringe mintority. Hell, I know Monarchists who consider both Bakhtiar AND Gangi traitors.

So, I agree with Khar that it was "too little too late." I don't see how Bakhtiar could have possibly escaped being anything other than "Nokare bi Ekhtiar?"

May he rest in peace, and

May he rest in peace, and may the fascist, terrorist murderous regime in Iran one day, hopefully soon, pay the price for all savagery they have done.

Parham and A4N, AN, Monda

During the witch hunt era in Europe and early American history, the people accused of witchcraft would be thrown in a lake. If they sunk and died, they'd be exonarated of the accusations. If they floated and survived they were witches and would get burnt.

It seems like the Iranian follow the same logic when it comes to our political figures and activists. Look at Ganji: after years of torture and hunger strike, now he's being snobbed by all the intellectuals for travelling and speaking freely in the west. Look at Batebi, the popular picture that captured all of our hearts landed him in prison and got him tortured for years to the point that he needed to be hospitalized. After he escaped the country, he was quickly accused of having turned into an agent because his interview was with VOA. Unfortunately, the only appreciated and praised activists/fighters/politicians for us iranians are the dead ones. Should I continue with examples and go back in history too?

I hope some day we stop the accusations, respect the brave souls who fight for our country, hear their message and follow the right path to democracy and freedom.

I do agree with you most people inside Iran are much wiser politically than most abroad. They are the ones who do not live in the fantasy land and have to deal with the brutalities every day, but as Souri mentioned they don't have the experience of living in a democratic country and speaking freely either. That's why it's so hard to see our hamvatans taking those privileges for granted and taking radical approaches that would risk the lives of other iranians.

Anonymous 4 now: thank you so much for posting the poem.

Not Anonymous: thanks again! good info again too and thanks for the valuable advice: much appreciated.

Monda jan: thank you for your comment, when the blog moves to the old pages, please use the link under most discussed ;-)

best regards,

IRANdokht

Everytime I see Shining head

Everytime I see Shining head or Mostaghel's posts, I just cringe...

By supporting the Islamic Republic, they are essentially accessory to murders of thousands of Iranians; past and present murders.

To have these crass miscreants on this site is akin to having the KKK, Likudnicks, or the Nazis as "regular bloggers". It is an affront to the memory of so many heroes who have lost and continue to lose their lives and treasure in the monstrous hands of these immoral Godforsaken monsters.

Having them on this site is slap in the face of those who are being tortured in secret dungeons or are on hunger strikes like Khaled Hardani and Mansour Radpour in the name of freedom and saving our country or those seven Bahai's who were arrested only a few days ago according to Amnesty International.

According to news received from Gohardasht Prison this morning the hunger strike of Mr. Khaled Hardani and Mansour Radpour is on its 4th day. Mr. Radpour was taken to an unknown location on August 6th 2008 and there has been no news about his whereabouts or health for the past three days.

Souri

I'd say I wouldn't agree with you that much there.
I've witnessed conversations and debates inside Iran that were much, much wiser and intelligent than what you see here on iranian.com, even from people who are considered at the bottom of the social ladder. Let's not give ourselves too much credit!

Let's also not forget that the people inside Iran have a sharp knife under their throat for every time they want to open their mouth. That's a mistake that's been made about Iranians ever since the constitutional revolution, and it's still being made. It was these same people who made that revolution, already back in 1905.

Shining head

The statements of anyone who brings up "bacheh soosool", "gambler", or whatever else in such an argument are worthy of a second look -- at least that!

I remember back in the revolution days, people's slogans about Bakhtiar hovered about him being an opium addict and stuff like that! You can read the words of regret about those slogans today right here in the comments section of this same post.

Irandokht: Perhaps paradoxically, the fact that Bakhtiar was killed was positive somehow then. History can be very cynical, a lot of the times, it's the overthrows and the killings that turn out to be the big mistakes committed by their perpetrators. Our history has a lot of those instances. Need I even give an example? ;-)

ignore the trolls

Dear Irandokht: don't reply to shining head. He is here to hijack and derail the thread. It's too sad.

Irankdokht jan: thanks again for this timely and much needed post.

15 Bahman 1357 (4 February

15 Bahman 1357 (4 February 1979)

Shahpour Bakhtiar:

"[This] 'Islamic Republic' is an unknown for me ... Iran has one government. More than this is intolerable, either for me or for you or for any other Iranian ... As a Muslim, I had not heard that Jihad refers to one Muslim against other Muslims ... Those fermenting a civil war will be put in front of the firing squad ... I will compromise neither with Shah nor with Khomeini.

I will not give permission to Ayatollah Khomeini to form an interim government ... I will implement all of Ayatollah Khomeini's views in law ... I shall reply to molotov cocktails by molotov cocktails ... An Islamic government limited to Qom is permissible, and we shall then have a Vatican too ..." -- Shahpour Bakhtiar, prime minister, Tehran radio interview.

Following the disappearance of a number of air force cadets, Ayatollah Taleghani demands a public explanation from the commanders of air bases.

Ayatollah Khomeini meets with a group of parliament deputies who had resigned from their seat.

"The Iranian nation and Iranian state are indivisible entities: one country, one government, one constitution, or nothing else ...We will tolerate this thing about anybody forming its own government until it is a joke and in words only, but if they take actions in this regard, we shall reply with our own actions ... If blood is spilled and if aggression is committed against the people, I will expose the aggressors without regard to their name or position right here [in parliament]... I shall remain in the position of the legitimate prime minister of this country until future free elections are held ... Whoever enjoys a majority, shall then govern." -- Shahpour Bakhtiar, in address to Parliament

Excerpts from: Memory Lane
Road to Revolution. Absolute MUST READ FOR everyone:

//iranian.com/History/Feb98/Revolution/

To; IRANdokht

Since you have read a lot and know better, which part of what I said in my post is wrong? Please prove with RELIABLE references. With RELIABLE references, I don't mean the junk web sites that some  folks have set up pretending they are telling iran's TRUE history. We have plenty of those!

thanks

S/H

shining head

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.  There are plenty of places you can educate yourself, lots of resources available online and in the libraries too.

maybe if you spent 1/10th of the time you waste spewing junk and read instead, you'd learn something.

IRANdokht

قطعه اي از اشک تاريخ اثر مسعود صدر

ز دريا مرغ طوفان پرکشان شد

نگهدار درفش کاويان شد

به روز او ٌٌٌل کارصدارت

چنين ميداد بر ملت بشارت

که من ايراني آزاده کيشم

همان خان لر سي سال پيشم

ز طوفان ترسي و بيمي ندارم

به کس تکريم و تعظيمي ندارم

نه آن طفلم که از دادي بترسد

نه آ ن بيدم که با بادي بلرزد

مرا ايران به دنيا قبله گاه است

به ايرانم فقط قانون پناه است

مراپيري نباشد جز مصدق

که از درد وطن کر عاقبت دق

مراترسي زکس جز از خدا نيست

زتسبيح وزنعلين وعبا نيست

صداقت درنهادش را نشان داد

به حرفش ماند و برآن ايده جان داد

 مسعود صدر

Thank you!

Not Anonymous:  thank you for your comment again and for the links!   

Sadegh: Thank you for your kind comment (I didn't know you were THAT young!)  :0)

Anonymous4now: No you were not alone, but unfortunately everything had to happen at that point, I actually believe that from Khomeini's move to Paris, to the Army deserting Dr Bakhtiar's government and even the murder of anyone and everyone who could have possibly become a heavy weight opposition leader, it all sound like higher earthly powers had their hands in it all.

Dr Kazemzadeh: Thank you so much for the information. I think what you read here about JM and Sanjabi was based on the emotions felt at the time they left Dr Bakhtiar alone in his fight for democracy. Some of us have a hard time trusting them now because they have made bad judgements and wrong moves when it was most important.

Parham: A very wise answer to mythbuster's question! thank you! 

on the subject of our common values and judgement standards,  I have to ponder about another possibility: hindsight is 20/20 my friend, at the time they wouldn't have agreed and didn't!

The problem is that some of us feel too proud to change our positions and therefore stick to our wrong ways until we have no choice but to accept the reality, and in this case, it's been 17 years since Dr Bakhtiar was murdered. If he were alive today, would these same folks not accuse him of being an agent of IRI for not having been assassinated?  look what happens to all those who fight the regime and don't get killed!

Unfortunately, that kind of accusations would actually come from the more intellectual, more educated ones who have experienced living in a democracy and enjoying freedom of speech.

Thank you Souri, Rosie, Khar, anonymoussaa and everyone else who commented.

IRANdokht