Speech by Reza Pahlavi at The International Society Of Human Rights - Bonn, Germany
Saturday, March 27th, 2010
I am indeed honored and glad to be with you tonight. Let me first acknowledge and thank Mr. Martin Lessenthin for his kind introduction, and the International Society of Human Rights for inviting me to this conference.
My first and fundamental observation has been and continues to be this: the relentless pursuit of human rights is the essence of democracy. And, without democracy, human rights cannot, by definition, prevail.
My vision of a future Iran is thus inseparable from these two interdependent ideals and principles. Before I offer my views about how we could attain this goal, allow me to first share my thoughts on the current state of affairs in my homeland.
Since the establishment of the clerical regime in Iran, both democracy and human rights have been grossly compromised. Not only did the people not gain the political freedom, which some may have thought would be attained as a result of the “Islamic Revolution”, but sadly they ended up losing practically all of the social freedoms which had been attained and enjoyed for a long time, particularly since the advent of the Constitutional Revolution at the turn of the 20th century.
One of the immediate questions most people – Iranians and foreigners alike – have pondered upon and asked throughout the years is: Does the factor of religion play a crucial part in Iran’s current state of human rights abuses and lack of transparent democracy? The simple truth and ultimate answer is: Yes. However, the explanation is not so simple. In fact, it is one of the most complex issues faced by a Middle-Eastern, predominantly Moslem society, which aspires to the aforementioned goals of democracy and human dignity while suffocating under an obscurantist and totalitarian, clerical dictatorship.
Even in the most liberal and democratic societies – East and West – religion plays a role and has a place. The problem starts, however, when religion is politicized into a radical ideology, one which allows the “church” or “clergymen” to interfere in the affairs of the state, and ultimately becomes a theocracy, and actually assumes governance, in the name of such ideology and the self-serving interpretation of God’s law and rule on earth.
When one looks at Ayatollah Khomeini’s vision of an Islamic Government, one realizes that it actually had little to do with the traditional thinking of the Shi’ite establishment. I say this in the sense that his concept of the “Velayate Faghih” (Guardianship of the Islamic Jurists) has in effect violated at least two of the most cardinal principles of the Shi’ite faith. The first being that, the only time divine rule could be envisaged to have domain over us on Earth is upon the reappearance of the 12th Imam, who is considered a “Ma’soum” (or non-sinner). Until then, it is not the role of the clerics to govern society in the name of religion. The second being the principle of “Takassore Maraje’”, or the plurality of sources of emulation, in other words multiple high ranking clerical leaders, as opposed to a single source such as the Pope in Catholicism.
There is no question that these tenants of the faith were indeed violated by Ayatollah Khomeini and his supporters. This also explains why most traditional clerics opposed this new interpretation and ideology and subsequently remained outside the newly established so called system, leaving a few to take the helm of this modern day theocracy.
Hence, what ensued was the imposition of an absolutist vision of like-minded radical Islamists, leaving most of our society outside their “in-house circle”, and considering all those who objected to their ideology as blasphemers and God opposing infidels. As such, the regime has arbitrarily discriminated against women, ethnic communities, religious minorities, intellectuals, students, workers, and even men of the same cloth!
But this vision was really not meant for Iran and Iranians alone. In fact Khomeini thought to use Iran as a launching pad for the exportation of his vision beyond our borders and attain a regional hegemony with himself at the helm of a modern day Shi’ite Caliphate. This venomous, radical ideology has since been implemented by the regime’s surrogates around the globe while using Iran’s resources at the expense of the people of Iran themselves. It is understandable that the threat of a terrorist-sponsoring regime attaining a nuclear weapon of mass destruction has been the predominant concern of the free world in recent years.
I need not remind this distinguished audience of the details of the systematic violation of human rights in Iran throughout these sad years, nor do I need to inform you of what you already know about the absence of political freedom. All this has been thoroughly documented by numerous human rights organizations over the course of the last three decades, including Amnesty International, The Bouroumand Foundation, The Center for Human Rights Documentation and numerous other independent and trustworthy organizations. The United Nations is also fully aware of the high number of Iranian refugees, often living in dismal conditions in neighboring countries and elsewhere.
2009 was one of the most challenging years for millions of my compatriots – a year during which the world witnessed the most flagrant violations of both political as well as human rights of our citizens. But last year was not the exception! Sadly it has been the rule over the last 30 years. This time again, when the people attempted to seek yet another way to soften the regime while demanding their basic rights, they were met with a swift and unforgiving crackdown.
Before I go any further, allow me to draw your attention to three of the most pressing and egregious human rights situations involving my compatriots today. I call upon the world’s democracies and advocates of human rights everywhere to focus attention on the longest suffering political prisoner in Iran, Mr. Amir Entezam—who even though he is not currently in prison—because he has refused to sign the regime’s “tobeh nameh” or “decleration of guilt and repentence” is in virtual prison with no freedoms. Also noteworthy is the case of Ayatollah Bouroujerdi, who because of his belief in separation of mosque & state, is in prison—in dire conditions. It is imperative for the world community to shine a bright light on this holy man’s plight and put pressure on the regime in Tehran on his behalf. And finally the fate of tens of thousands of refugees: including journalists and bloggers and other innocents---join us in calling on the United Nations to recognize their status as political refugees & provide them with such protections & supports that only that international body can—and do so with urgency.
Few would argue today that the thought of reforming this regime, whether it be a domestic attempt or a foreign expectation, has proven to be unrealistic and unattainable. Why? Because the very nature of this regime, the very essence of its existence, is in direct conflict and diametrically opposed to the liberal principles of democracy as we understand it and the principles of human rights. Its survival depends on denying what the people of Iran demand. I have said all along, so long as this regime remains in power, Iran will not reverse its course.
Can the situation change in Iran, despite the regime? My answer is: Definitely. It is only a matter of time. However, my concern is for this to happen in the short term, and at minimal further cost to a citizenry that has already paid far too much with lost lives, lost opportunities, lost dignity.
Let me offer you now my vision of Iran’s future and the path I propose for its implementation. In light of the limited time I have with you today, I will only discuss the broader issues.
I believe Iranians need to give careful consideration to three predominantly important questions:
1. What is the alternative to this regime, in terms of a political system?
2. How would their rights be upheld and safeguarded under this new system? And,
3. Would this be in conflict with their faith?
In addressing the first question, I would argue history has repeatedly proven to us that a clear separation between religion and state is imperative in order to have the right circumstances for democratic governance. I would, therefore, emphasize the imperative of the “secular” nature of a future democratic system. I would further add the constitution of said democracy should, in my view, be based on the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. This comprehensive document has established standards and principles to which I would refer in addressing all of our social, cultural, religious and political concerns.
As mentioned in the beginning, without a fully accountable democratic system, these principles would be hard to implement. But, it is not just a matter of understanding the need for this alternative. It takes a great deal of commitment and investment by each and every citizen to attain this goal.
This brings me to the second question. Would such an investment usher in a system which would indeed safeguard people’s rights? Here, allow me to offer my observation of a critical point which may have been somewhat unappreciated throughout our history. It is the fact that, as a multi-ethnic and multi-cultural society, I truly believe we Iranians have in fact two kinds of identities: one national and the other ethnic. Throughout the centuries, Iran’s national identity was the predominant factor in the preservation of our culture and civilization. Our great poet Ferdowsi is but one wonderful example of how our sense of identity has been deeply embedded in our collective psyche. However, I would add that we should also recognize the importance of the diverse ethnic and religious identities and the preservation of these cultures and faiths as well. Whether from the outside looking in or whether we introvert and self-observe as we move forward, to view Iranians as a monolithic people would be a gross mistake.
Persia has been for centuries the cradle of a broad mosaic of ethnicities and cultures, living peacefully with each other. As such Iran’s territorial integrity has been preserved, in great part on the basis and willingness of its own people. Beyond the overall political repression, the persistent discrimination of the current regime against many groups has caused great deals of concern and uproar. This is a factor that may threaten the very same territorial integrity of Iran as I just mentioned, should the status quo prevail.
Think of it this way, when a Kurdish or Balouch Sunni Moslem faces discrimination by the current Shi’ia regime, for example, by denying him the right to erect a Sunni mosque, is this justice? When an Iranian Jew or Bahai has been persecuted, simply because of his faith, is this freedom? When a woman has half the rights or voice of a man, is this equality?
I have had the great good fortune of having travelled throughout my homeland during my youth, and around the world during these years in exile. I have come to the conclusion that there are some universal aspirations among human beings, regardless of their nationality, gender, faith, ethnicity or culture. The most important is equality under the law; the guarantee that no citizen would have fewer rights than another under any pretext, and further he or she would have the liberty to believe in any political view point they choose, practice a faith they wish, and so on and so forth…
Simply stated, without such rights, such incentives, why would a citizen be willing to give his utmost to the service of his homeland, or for that matter even be willing to be part of his community instead of opting out for a different community where such rights exist?
It is precisely for this reason I put before you the premise that, without upholding such human rights, there is no democracy. Therefore, in my vision of a future Iran, I would urge my fellow compatriots to commit to a vigilant and diligent upholding of these fundamental principles. We have to be pro-active as citizens, invest ourselves fully in carrying out our civic duties, and not rely solely on the government.
It is critically important to realize it is not sufficient to simply rely on the apparatus of state and a constitution. It is imperative to nurture and strengthen a civil society in order to further assist the implementation and preservation of democratic institutions and mechanisms that serve the citizenry, such as labor unions, free press, and NGOs.
I would also emphasize the constant replenishment of such ideals and measures by relying on the single most important factor: education. It is our first and best weapon against obscurantism, fanaticism, bigotry, racism, and other sinister beliefs – this is true of all societies and cultures. After all, enlightenment was the natural outcome of the dark period of obscurantism, last witnessed during the Christian inquisition in Europe. This is why I am confident that Iran is today the cradle of a post – this time Islamic inquisition, renaissance, and the youth of today have demonstrated their bold desire to attain it by bravely sacrificing their lives for the sake of liberty. But is this a struggle against religion, some may think or argue? This brings me to the third question. Would a change in Iran’s political system be compatible or coexist with faith?
The ruling clerics have repeatedly accused those of us striving for a secular alternative of leading a campaign against religion. This is, of course, not true. On the contrary, I would argue that it is in fact in the interest of religion and the clergy itself to have a separation of religion from government. Many of our high-ranking, non-governmental clergymen have attested to this fact for many years. Since the advent of Islam in Iran, the biggest harm done, not only to people, but to the faith itself, has been under this so-called Islamic regime – which I frankly prefer to call the anti-Islamic regime!
Today, our traditional clerics lament about their loss of reverence and empty mosques. Interestingly enough, for a regime that has been chanting “Death to America” from its inception, they must be at a loss to explain why Islam is the fastest growing religion in the US, while many Iranians are turning their backs to it in Iran? I think the answer is obvious. The American Constitution and Bill of Rights values and protects the right of its citizens to freedom of religion under a political system which observes the separation of church and state. The clerical regime in Iran and its constitution obviously does not separate mosque from state, thereby rendering both institutions lacking sorely in meeting the very real needs of the citizenry in spirituality or services. Why do so many persecuted or threatened Iranians – and for that matter other nationalities – seek asylum or refuge in European democracies? Because the secular democracies of Europe offer the opportunity for experiencing a more dignified human existence, a democratic forum and a voice and the freedom to practice your faith whatever it may be. How come persecuted individuals from different countries have yet to seek asylum or refuge in The Islamic Republic of Iran, even persecuted Moslems, unless you count members of the Taliban or Al Qaida fleeing justice?
I believe the great majority of Iranians are no longer influenced by the desperate rhetoric of a regime that has lost both its political and religious legitimacy. Instead, they believe, as I do, that we should move beyond this regime and secure our aspiration to a secular, democratic system and a government which will guarantee all that this regime has denied us as a nation.
Having said all this, we must remain mindful of another dynamic, beyond what we as Iranian citizens have to contemplate and do, which plays an important role in relation to the overall evolution of our country’s situation. I am referring to the role of the international community, particularly that of western democracies. Campaigns of non-violent civil disobedience in many countries were ultimately successful as a result of explicit support from the free world. Today, Iranians expect, and I might add deserve, the same degree of commitment and support from democratic societies. Specifically, we expect the world to realize that the central issue for us is not the peripheral so called “nuclear issue”, but in fact the question of human rights and political freedom, and lack thereof in Iran.
While for many years, many western governments would – in the name of ‘real-politik’ and economic interests – brush this pivotal issue of human rights and democracy in Iran under the rug, they can no longer be indifferent and allow it to be ignored. Beyond what respective governments could or should do, the people-to-people relationship is just as important, if not more. By this I mean that Iranians could benefit from more overt expressions of solidarity by people organized under different structures the world over. For example, support from labor unions for Iranians workers in the event strikes can be organized; or support from foreign NGO’s to Iranians NGO’s to bring special attention to the plight of political prisoners and give them financial support to help them with their medical and legal expenses; or technological assistance to circumvent Internet “blocks” and cyber spying of the regime, and exposing entities or companies who, despite such a deplorable climate, continue to do business with Iran while hurting the people – Nokia & Siemens being the most recent and most egregious examples; or by putting pressure on those politicians who still insist on “talking with Tehran” while reducing this to a simple nuclear negotiation – as though leaders who sanction the rape and murder of their own children can be trusted to enter in to reliable agreements. Special funds and foundations are already in place, and more could be set up to implement important international activities in support of the Iranian people. Such an investment by the free world would help expedite a win-win outcome. There is no question that change will have to come at the hand of the Iranian people. But the cost could be heavily reduced as a result of the active participation of the international community. As Dr. Martin Luther King has said: “In the end we will forget the words of our enemies, but we will remember the silence of our friends.”
In closing, let me reiterate democracy and human rights for Iran is not just a slogan; it is our unique hope for salvation and the fundamental element which will bring long term political stability as well as put our nation back on the track of modernity, progress and prosperity. Iranians have come a long way, particularly in this last century. We have paid a heavy price while learning valuable lessons. As such, we are stronger as a society and perhaps clearer in our collective vision of a better future.
I place my faith and hope in today’s generation of the young and brave sons and daughters of Iran; a generation which not only understands the values of democracy, liberty and human dignity, but is also willing to pay the price for it; a generation which recognizes the importance of respect for diverse views and endorses tolerance and pluralism; a generation which understands that only by defending the individual or collective rights of all can one hope to have his or her own protected. Today, Iran does not lack the knowledge or the tools in the sense of both its human and natural resources. I am confident the vision I shared with you tonight, which is also shared by millions of my compatriots, will soon be attained. It is, however, through an unwavering commitment to the ideals I have enumerated tonight that we will guarantee its survival and perpetuity.
I leave you this evening with the certain knowledge that this first revolution of the 21st century, this “Twitter Revolution”, is an epic struggle for human rights and dignity waged by my compatriots. This is a battle for the soul of a nation; a nation credited with the first ever documented Declaration of Human Rights, dating back to the time of Cyrus the Great, the replica of which adorns the Great Hall of the United Nations. This struggle will end with the Iranian people reclaiming their rightful place, as the leaders they were some 3000 years ago and first appreciated the significance of the rights of each and every human being. As a Persian poem’s says: “The end of a black night is white.”
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Q, the historical law of unintended consequences
by Nur-i-Azal on Wed Mar 31, 2010 02:03 AM PDT'Aziz-i-Baraadar, I think you need to look at 16th & 19th century European history a little closer as well as one recent example in South-East Asia in the 20th. First, let me say that as far as I am concerned the Tehrangeles crowd does not count for very much in the overall scheme of things other than for blowing off occassional steam on satellite television. And whatever one cabbie in Tehran told you, I can bring you 50 more to say the exact opposite. The folks I am talking about have credibility and they are not cabbies. Your sources are saying the same old, same old when the actual facts and the as-we-speak consensus are 180 degrees saying different. Go ahead put your fingers in yours ears, hear no evil, see no evil. I'll buy the chelo-kebab at Darband when this is all over and we're on the other side of the equation of things just to say I told you so!
Now the French monarchy and the house of Bourbon was re-established in France in 1814 following the final defeat of Napoleon at Waterloo. In England a lot earlier the Stuart's were brought back in 1660 following the collapse of Oliver Cromwell's Puritan republican experiment (or, rather, disaster). Fast forward again to France in 1848 where you have another revolution and a second republic with a descendent of Napoleon, Louis-Napoleon (i.e. Napoleon III), becoming president of the new republic but soon afterwards declaring himself Emperor and proclaming the re-establishment of the French Empire. In recent experience we have Cambodia and the the figure of Prince Norodom Sihanouk going back over there after the insanity of the Khmer Rouge and then the brutal and disastrous Vietnamese occupation, etc. I can give you other examples as well, but simply couldn't be bothered right now.
What you don't seem to recognize is that the exasperation of the general Iranian population with the Green leadership and general wishy-washiness of the overall Green focus has brought matters to where as an unintended consequence Reza Pahlavi is well and truly beginning to emerge as the only real alternative. You don't think so? I suggest you watch developments on the ground a little more closely from here on out and talk to a few more people than the usual.
Ya NUR & Javeed Shah
The bottom-line is that
by benross on Wed Mar 31, 2010 01:49 AM PDTThe bottom-line is that nobody can fault the Crown Prince for what he is saying in his speech. At least, nobody that we should care.
One of major problems of the Crown Prince in PR is that he can not speak up about all that he has done throughout the years. How many Iranian politicians and how many political leaders he has met, how many agreements for unity he has reached with them, not one of them being respected on their part.
He can not do that, because the life of some Iranians inside Iran may be in jeopardy by association. I can name a few, but I won't, for the same reason.
They were constantly asking the Crown Prince to keep it quiet (until they clean up the garbage they put in the mind of their followers I suppose) and of-course, the Crown Prince was always respecting his part of the bargain.
But now, the tide is turned. The content of the speech is before us. This is what basically the Crown Prince was saying for years. This is what he is saying and this is what we have every right to hold him accounted for. Nothing else. We may have different interpretation of the content. I know I do. But this will never go away. It is called pluralism. What matters is that now the Crown Prince should take necessary steps to organize the movement. This task is upon him and nobody else. He has to take his responsibility for organizing a movement to bring about the values that he just mentioned in his speech. The real accountability is right here.
Q2
by David ET on Wed Mar 31, 2010 01:56 AM PDTWhere have I been "completely dissmissive" of supporters of AN or reformists? Are you self- reflecting ? The only one dissmissive of others here have been you. I even counted the votes for you. How is that dissmissive ? ! Is Mr clever just trying to keep bringing up nonesense to make me defensive in order to avoid the questions that was asked of him?
and where did I even mention Islam in this sentence?!!
"and I hope sooner than later you also realize that Iran can be secular just as Turkey is and just as Iraqis recently voted for despite all odds and I suppose you can not deny that Iranians as whole are more educated than Iraqi's, "
Or are you one of those who think secularism is anti-religion? Secularism is not Marxism you know?
Nah I know you are smarter than that. you are just changing the conversation just because you had no answers to my questions /"interrogations"
you put me to zzzz with such comments... good night
ps: I hope you are smiling because I have been :-)
signed:
"funny"
David ET,
by Q on Wed Mar 31, 2010 01:40 AM PDTIn that case you must be smart enough to understand that Allawi did not win by appealing to the "seculars" (This is the Fox News story), but appealing to Sunnis.
I don't want to change your "intent". You changed your own intent by using Turkey as an example of Iran can achieve, which I criticized. But now you're saying it was not an example of what Iran can achieve. Don't use it, if you don't approve.
MM,
by Q on Wed Mar 31, 2010 01:37 AM PDTWhat exactly have YOU ever done to "defend" my right to my own opinion? By making wild associations and baseless accusations, you think you're doing me a favor?
You really have a healthy ego.
NO Q
by David ET on Wed Mar 31, 2010 01:36 AM PDTI did not call Iraq secular and in fact I was one of the 1st ones who questioned Iraq's constitution , what I wrote was that people despite odds voted in the recent election for the secular alternative (even by 2 seats), that in a country like Iraq is an achievement with majority shia and IR interference
and that was all in comparison to Iran which I belive has a much more secular population with 1000's of years of history behind it !
as for Turkey I said it is secular and did not say how it became it. In fact the problem of Turkey is what I have tried to avoid in my prposed constitution: no religious leaders or groups and parties can hold office or run for one (cant be both.pick one , cant try to push for religion in govt a secular system! )
Why do you want to change the intent by twisting the comments or discussing irrelvant issues?
Dear Jamshid
by David ET on Wed Mar 31, 2010 01:27 AM PDTI do remembe Q's logics from those days but he has imprpved , in fact most of us have... from where we have been , each our own way , so its all relative and we must give credit where its due..
We do not waste time talking to one another , as long as we talk ...
The alternative is uglier
we all are humans and we all think about what was said and in time we all come closer to one another by communicating as longg as we keep the channels open or we are allowed to...
I have an article coming up and I actually hope that Q and everyone support it too ! until then : may the force be with us all !
Jamshid - while we defend the right of Q to have his opinion,
by MM on Wed Mar 31, 2010 01:27 AM PDTbut we need to call out hypocrites when they are so bold as to lie in our faces and expect us to bend over and say; may I have another one please.
Let's send them over to Press TV to try to impress their likes over there, but then again, Q will be considered a leftist thug in Press TV circles.
David ET, you're funny...
by Q on Wed Mar 31, 2010 01:29 AM PDTWho has denied who's existence? I have never denied there are seculars inside Iran.
You are completely dismissive of all Ahmadinejad supporters, religious Iranians and most Greens who believe in peaceful reform within the system. That's the overwhelming majority of Iranians. And I have to tell you, your linking of "education" to "Islam" is an insult.
Your two examples are not at all supportive of your case. Turkey was "secularized" through an undemocratic military dictatorship, and even that has not worked after 80 years.
This is article 2 of the Iraqi constitution:
Article 2:
First: Islam is the official religion of the State and it is a fundamental source of legislation:
A. No law that contradicts the established provisions of Islam may be established.
You really call this secular? You must have been watching too much Fox News to think that Iyad Allawi's 2 seat plurality is in any shape or form "secular". He will have to get the support Al-Sadr (the most religious top candidate) to stay in power.
Q you are not making sense not that you did earlier ;-)
by David ET on Wed Mar 31, 2010 01:18 AM PDTLike I said I am glad that you support the greens, that is an improvement from past. and for that I defend you against Khamenei/Ahmadinejad supporters.
and I hope sooner than later you also realize that Iran can be secular just as Turkey is and just as Iraqis recently voted for despite all odds and I suppose you can not deny that Iranians as whole are more educated than Iraqi's,
As much as you deny us , you need us and we need you so instead of denying one another's existence it is best to acknowledge and respect each other's existence and views and work for an Iran that has room for all of us and not selected few (of any kind)
Good night and har roozat norooz
REALLY? No kidding?
by MM on Wed Mar 31, 2010 01:10 AM PDTAn IRI sympathizer who believes in a VF to tell him everything even how to wipe (or rather wash) telling us we are naive. boro baba.
Jamshid to the rescue?
by Q on Wed Mar 31, 2010 01:11 AM PDTI love it when people lose an argument so badly they have to change the subject to save some face.
Jamshid, these are the reforms that I'm talking about, that Mousavi and the Greens are talking about. I might be "silent" about them because they are being openly discussed now in Green circles.
Once again, blinded by sheer hate, you can't even bother reading those HORRIBLE WORDS I supported! What a lame and laughable stretch to try to demonize me on! Recall the advice I already gave you about "tone" versus substance. You have made 0 progress.
If calling me "clever" is your mental excuse for dismissing the facts, there's nothing I can do about it. Whatever floats your collective boats...
David ET and MM, you are wasting your time with Q
by jamshid on Wed Mar 31, 2010 01:04 AM PDTI think you both would agree with me that Q is a clever fellow. For instance, since the June events, he has cleverly remained mute on his past views and remarks.
Here is a sample of his pre-June views (with the permission of Irane Azad.) Read them and tell me if you could ever reason with this character:
"The system as it is designed currently can deliver much better democracy. For example: if the Guardian Council starts vetting candidates less and less. The Supreme Leader could show less and less initiative. The foreign policy council could be dominated more and more by the popularly elected President (That's Ahmadinejad by the way). The system can move very far and toward a perfect democracy. “
"The fact that there is strict eligability requirement is not a reason to call it undemocratic."
"Even though I agree the candidate vetting process in Iran is unusually subject to abuse, it is only a few degrees different than other democracies. And in any case continued participation of people in the system also legitimizes it. That's just a fact of life we may not like but it won't go away."
"Since when is having a democracy dependnet on Parties? The US constituion doesn't have any provision for political parties. The definition of what is a "party" is extremely vague anyway. What we have in Iran now could be considered parties"
"In Iran, the role of Supreme Leader is closest to a "chief justice" since he has no proper legislative functions."
"A referendum is not a bad idea, if the people of Iran want it. A majority would have to demand it. But personally I think if even 30% of Iranians go on record supporting such a referendum it would happen and I would support it."
Of course since June of last year, our clever Q is not repeating the above non-sense any longer. How can you argue with someone like this.
More samples from Q's views later...
MM, you REALLY are naive!
by Q on Wed Mar 31, 2010 01:02 AM PDTyou expect me to name him/her so that you henchman put them in jail?
Wow! OK, got it. So You have a "secret" candidate that could have nation-wide support but you can't tell me.
Wait, wasn't he already jailed or exiled? So... Whatever man. You don't even know a single candidate. If you don't want to admit it, you don't have to.
LOL!
interrogation
by Q on Wed Mar 31, 2010 01:00 AM PDTI actually answered all your question. But since you were interrogating (i.e. just tying to attack) instead of listening, you ignored them all.
But fair is fair, you don't have to provide an answer if you don't have one.
And, even if we had a presidential candidate in Iran,
by MM on Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:57 AM PDTyou expect me to name him/her so that you henchman put them in jail?
who is the naive new-comer here?
MM, OK
by Q on Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:56 AM PDTname the candidate who is jailed or exiled who could have won.
So Q is it OK to ask questions but not ok to be asked?!
by David ET on Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:56 AM PDTFor someone who does not like to be asked questions or be "interrogated" , you suddenly want answers from others and don't mind interrogation! But that goas with supporting IR: Not giving the same right to others that you want for yourself.
But unlike you I have given the answer in writing already :
[In April of 2009 I also wrote an article "get out and vote this time" right here on IC and other places which was concluded with these words:
"Having control of the ballot boxes the extremists may even change the results but that will not be without public outrage and consequences if millions vote. Either way tactically the people will come out as winners. Let people exercise their power and use Islamic Republic's own ballot boxes to show that they are fed up with extremism and yes it will still be Islamic Republic under its supreme leader but the message will be loud and clear: NO MORE EXTREMISM! Iranians once again must believe in themselves and the power of THE PEOPLE and this can be a start."
Despite some criticism and skepticism, the proposed tactics and strategies were proven to be successful and today more than ever the collapse of the Islamic Regime and formation of a secular government of the people seem to be within reach ]
All secular candidates are exiled, in jail or murdered!
by MM on Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:52 AM PDTWhat kind of question is that? You really expected an answer? WOW!
bitching?
by MM on Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:46 AM PDThow childish!
I hear a lot of bitching
by Q on Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:52 AM PDTbut no answer to the simple question I posed.
You, David ET voted (and encouraged others) to vote in the election, it means you are part of the 85% who voted for change from inside the system. Even if it is radical change, that is what you voted for. You can fantasize all you want, but what do you think would have happened if your candidate Mousavi was declared winner?
Revolution? Hardly. Rejection of VF? No. A gradual process to change the constitution and/or increase freedoms along the lines of the 5 points that Mousavi published a few months ago? Yes.
It looks like you too are a regime sympathizer!
The fact that you can't come up with a single candidate is very telling. So what you're asking for is not a "free and fair" election, it's apparnetly 31 years of "face showing" so that secular candidates can sell themselves, which you predict based on no evidence will lead to their election! How can this possibly work in your post-Regime fantasy?
You sell Iranians short yet again, David. Rememer there there was absolutely no public mention of Khomeini before the '78 crisis. You couldn't even talk or "show your face" if you were a Khomeini supporter. AND there was no Internet either. So, obviously the people are Iran are fully capable of supporting someone outside the system. Obviously if such a popular and charismatic "secular" figure existed ANYWHERE, his/her support would be self evident.
Q I don't count, remember?
by David ET on Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:40 AM PDTI and those who voted were only very few and hardly exist among 85% remember? You/Khamenei/khatami and even Mousavi think so...
Although the difference between the number of voters between the election of 2009 when we participated (39 million) and 2005 boycotted election (28 million) was 11.2 million more than all the votes that rafsanjani (the moderate candidate of 2005 in the 2nd round, 10 million) and that is not adding all those who boycotted the election of 2009 as you mantioned yourself. No Q! without us Mousavi at best would have had same outcome as Rafsanjani last time: nothing and nothing would have happend as it didnt in 2005.
But then we don't count Q , we are nobody.... because IR and you have always said so...
What secular candidate?!
when did your IR (conservative or moderate) ever allow seculars to even show face in Iran in the past 31 years that you expect candidates?! How many people are in exile out of Iran? How many are quiet because if they open their mouth, they get arrested, imprisoned, tortured , raped and killed? How many are imprisoned and executed in the past 31 years.
Mr Q, tell IR to open the doors of Evin and allow people to openly demonstrate and express their candidacy and vote openly, I will show you seculars, until then I am afraid we are not on equal grounds to demand me a secular candidate.
Show me democracy in Iran and I show you seculars.
Until then one of us is talking from his "behind"
Q - how were 5 out of thousands of candidates applied chosen?
by MM on Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:29 AM PDT.
David - how ironic?
by MM on Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:27 AM PDTYou and I, two secularists, are defending the rights of Iranian voters and even RP's rights, against an IRI sympathizer in a monarchist blog.
I guess that is progress.
MM, same question to you
by Q on Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:23 AM PDTOut of thousands of presidential candidates who applied, they, a handfull were all chosen by a committee that had one religious yard-stick;
OK, that's fair. But who was going to win the election who was unjustly denied?
Do you even know the names of any of the people who were rejected? You probably don't. And you claim one of them could have done better in the elections? Please... no more jokes.
85% supported change within system? - IRI statistics?
by MM on Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:18 AM PDTnone of the Iranian presidential candidates came up through primary elections. Out of thousands of presidential candidates who applied, they, a handfull were all chosen by a committee that had one religious yard-stick; how loyal are these candidates to VF & how is their religious background?
And, you expect these Iranian presidents to mange well as chief executives! FYI, None of them have done well, and no on-coming presidents will do well as long as this system is in operation.
David, isn't that who YOU voted for too?
by Q on Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:15 AM PDTI'm sorry that I can't extend any kind of credit to you, after the childish post you made below. But I do have a simple question for you:
Who do you think could have won the election, had it been to your satisfaction? What "secular" candidate do you have in mind thta could have won, but wasn't allowed to run??? Please englighten us so that we may know our true leader.
It's a simple question my friend.
Q I give you this much credit
by David ET on Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:12 AM PDTIn this IR election you supported Khatami/Mousavi versus Ahmadinejad.
WITHIN the system of course <wink>
yes, it was David ET
by Q on Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:06 AM PDTexactly as I suspected, you completely ignore my remarks and pulled a bunch of crap from your behind and attributed them to me.
It's like you didn't read anything. I really had expected more from you.
What I said and what I repeat now is this:
85% supported change from within the system. Did some want to change aspects of the system? Sure, clearly they did. that's what change means.
Now you can make up all the irrelevant BS you want to make yourself feel better.
Q
by David ET on Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:04 AM PDTThis is not interrogation. Everything I asked were DIRECTLY related to your comments below and I can re-post your comments (vs. my questions) to prove that if you wish.
These were questions very specific about the comments you made without any proof or basis for your claims and therefore I asked for clarification. I was asking so you can shed some light on why you wrote what you wrote, may be some of us including me see the light that you see and we don't. Otherwise I am afraid they are just hollow claims in order to make your point without any support or without you being willing to defend your own view ...
and as expected and as you have always done, you simply either avoid direct answers to questions and just talk in general or repeat yourself as you again did in your new so called reply (hamishe tafre miri)
You say that I know you don't like interrogation, so therefore I guess you think I know you well by now. So let me tell you what I think you think from your present and past positions and comments (or lack of!) :
The Iranians, the 85%, the 3 million are supporters of IR except a very few. (because Q says so)
Q and Khamenei's believe that 85% who voted support IR (because they say so)
If a secular option was offered instead of Mousavi, people still want Mousavi (because Q says so)
Q supports IR and its constitution including Vali Faghih