Must Jews always see themselves as victims?
The Independent
10-Mar-2009 (25 comments)

Daniel Bar Tal of Tel Aviv University, one of the world's leading political psychologists, questioned Israeli Jews about their memory of the conflict with the Arabs, from its inception to the present, and found that their "consciousness is characterised by a sense of victimisation, a siege mentality, blind patriotism, belligerence, self-righteousness, dehumanisation of the Palestinians and insensitivity to their suffering". The researchers found a close connection between that collective memory and the memory of "past persecutions of Jews" and the Holocaust, the feeling that "the whole world is against us". If such a study were to be conducted among Jews in Britain, I suspect the results would be very similar.

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anonymous fish


by anonymous fish on

thanks!  i love hearing from my fans! 

listen... i think bush and company are the biggest jackass' since... well, i don't know when.  mcclueless was just as bad.  those imbecils could have taken us to war with iran in a heartbeat with their stupidity.  surely you don't think i supported either one of them!!!  that is why we have elections... to get rid of people like bush and cheney!  the difference is that they couldn't have done anything without approval from the people.  well, they could have but they aren't quite THAT stupid... :-).  and you're right... by definition, we are just as bad.  that is pretty much my point.  it isn't israel alone who is guilty of this bullshit rhetoric.  just don't add nonsensical comments to a hot-button discussion. 

there is nothing double standard about my opinions.  i do not deny that the US shares blame or has done some pretty shitty things.  you do... you seem to take offense when someone points out iran's faults.  or else you want to blame it on media bias or the zionist conspiracies that seem to abound.  i simply see that as being totally unproductive and just a leetle too sensitive.  i take shit about americans all day long here.  what makes you so special? 

peace out!


af, the worst example of "double standard"

by Anonymous8 (not verified) on

usually comes from you. without exception, I have observed you put your foot in mouth over and over again. your arguments are superficial.

so true, by THAT definition, all the right wing angry Americans who yell "nuke Iran" and "bomb iran", or Presidential candidates singing them means that America declared war on Iran.

which one is more credible? Bush? or Iranian school children?

there is a difference between talk and action. there is a difference between military policy and slogans. after what Bush did to 1 Million Iraqis, you have no room to talk about rhetoric.

Kaveh Nouraee

Some of you people need intense therapy

by Kaveh Nouraee on

Since the beginning of time, Jews have been oppressed, persecuted, imprisoned, tortured, shot, gassed, and nearly exterminated like the cockroaches some of you think they are.

My, oh my, why, oh why, khoda margam bedeh chera!?

Because they are (now everyone say this from the side of your mouth so no one tries to shove a bar of soap in it for saying it)...


And then you have the f***ing nerve to ask why do they see themselves as victims?

When narrow-minded bigots such as yourselves talk about other groups of people, the typical phrases include:

"Send them n****ers back to Africa"

"Deport those illegals back to Mexico" (as if illegals can only be Mexican)

"Lock all the towelheads at Gitmo"

"Nuke (fill in the country of your choice)"

"Kill the Jews".

For thousands of years, Jews have been getting their asses kicked and you bigoted maggots have been happier than if you had just won the lotto. And now for the past 60 years, they haven't just laid down and died for you, and that just pisses you off.

But, in the interests of peace, goodwill and friendship, I offer you this token gesture, a musical olive branch, if you will.


anonymous fish


by anonymous fish on

so by your definition alone, is it safe to say that iran has been at the forefront of attacking the US?  you know, death to america and all that good stuff that is taught to schoolCHILDREN and screamed at virtually every rally?  and by THAT definition, would it be safe to say that the US has a viable concern about iran having a nuclear weapon?  you're trapping yourself, my dear.  you must remember that when you make accusations, they CAN and will turn around and bite you in the you-know-what.

there is also a huge difference between acknowledging negative reports about iran by claiming media bias against iran all the time.  sticking your head in the sand where something negative comes out or claiming media bias is unreasonable.  i've seen both zion and mehdi praise iran or iranians when an achievement has been publicized.  but you don't remember that, do you?  you simply remember them pointing out the negative.  might they possibly do that in defense of their countrymen in the face of such obvious bias from so many on

the many MANY articles about israel aren't posted by zion and mehdi.  they're overwelmingly posted by iranians who have a clear agenda to publicize israels wrongs and further the hatred and bias against jews.

if you are unsure about anything i've said... ask me.  but don't try to twist my words to make me sound anti-iranian.  it ain't gonna happen any more.  NO MORE.  being pro-iranian doesn't mean wearing blinders to her faults.  i love my extended iranian family and have great respect for most of the iranians i've met.  i value the culture and rich history of iran.  but i despise and detest the regime that controls her mind, body and soul and i despise anyone who supports that regime and i despise anyone who is blatently racist and anti-semitic.  it doesn't make me anti-iranian... it makes me anti-you (again, figuratively speaking of course...:-)

farhad is so right.  double standards indeed.

peace out!


BK, I don't know you ... but

by Mehrnaz (not verified) on

I am sorry I have to be working now so I just answer you briefly because I have not fully read your comment. When I get a chance I will read it later and if appropriate will reply. But just to clarify:

By sleezy characters, I did not mean 'you', I don't know you and have not noticed your name before, I mean self-confessed racists like Zion and Mazloom whose commitment to this website is confined to launching attacks.

In relation to Israel being at the forefront of attacking Iran, yes, that was what I meant. Attacks don't have to be full-blown military attacks; deceitful campaigns of vilification and demonisation, clandestine operations and sabotage, assassinations, undermining of diplomatic efforts and unremitting threats of war, lies and fabrications about Iran's nuclear programme, efforts to isolate Iran and imposition of sanctions (itself an act of war), instigation of warring resolutions in the US congress, are all ATTACKS directed at our nation, with Israel at the forefront.



by BK (not verified) on

Interesting article. Thanks for sharing.


This article provides an answer

by Ostaad on

I have had a totally different view on how the "Jews" see themselves in the world after reading this article by Leonard Fein titled, "Reflections of a Sometime Israel Lobbyist". Here's the link"






by BK (not verified) on

From the tone of your comment I'm assuming you are talking about people like me when you say ...."those sleezy characters lurking in and out of each and every thread rubbishing any positive report on Iran"..... Not a nice thing to say, but ok, I guess that's the nature of internet exchanges. It just goes with the territory.

I won't call you names in response (it’s not my style and what would it achieve anyway?), but allow me to address your "...I wonder what country it is that is at the forefront of attacking Iran..." comment. But before I do that it’s important that I spell out my stand point here, even though this will mean I’ll be going off the tangent for a bit, so please bear with me.

Israel is a country whose foreign policy I totally abhor. It has for decades now mistreated and victimized the Palestinian people by colonizing their land and ethnically cleansing them from their homes and killing them in huge numbers under the pretext of defending itself. It has also done so while disregarding and breaking the international law and resolutions by continuing to seize yet more land and destroying Palestinian homes to build more illegal settlement for its citizens. Zionism has turned into a nasty, racist and horrendously intolerant ideology. So, I hope it’s clear I’m no defender of Israel’s actions.

Now to your point that "...I wonder what country it is that is at the forefront of attacking Iran.." . First of all, Iran has never been attacked by Israel. So that country could never have been “at the forefront” of any such attack. There, I’m assuming that you meant to say that “Israel has been at the forefront of encouraging attack on Iran” (by all means correct me if I’m wrong). That is true to an extent if we only think of the past few years and totally ignore how this has come to be. Because the crucial point is that this assumption ignores is that history that precedes Israel’s current attitude towards Iran.

The issue is that your comment implies that the IRI simply minding its own business and not bothering anyone and for no reason whatsoever Israel started seeking war with Iran. This “victimhood” mentality, which totally ignores the bilateral history of IRI and Israel, has become common place among some Iranians.

If you go through the history of Iran/Israel relations over the past 30 years, with an objective and clear-minded outlook, you’ll find that it is the IRI that has been at the forefront of encouraging conflict against Israel. Even after IRI took power Israel had no reason to want to attack Iran, because despite the fact that IRI immediately gave its support to the PLO and denounced Israel, Iran and Israel had no reason on seek a conflict against each other.

But how did things change and what happened soon after IRI’s rise to power?

Well there a few things I just don’t remember.

I don’t recall Israeli government and its supporters pouring into the streets and shouting “marg bar Iran” and burning Iran’s flag on a weekly basis. I don’t remember Israel funding, training and arming the Kurds and (separately) MKO rising against the IR in those days. I don’t remember at the time any Israeli President/Prime Minister publicly saying that IRI regime should “vanish from the pages of history” or that “Iran is a stinking corpse destined to disappear”, or that “today the reason for the IRI regime's existence is questioned and this regime is on its way to annihilation". I don’t remember Israel holding highly publicized exhibitions questioning and in effect denying that history of Iranian people being murdered in their thousands at the hands of others, (e.g. during Alexandrian, Arab and Mongol invasions of Iran). I don’t remember Israel agents being under strong suspicion of being involved in blowing up of an Iranian mosque overseas killing nearly one hundred Iranians Muslims.

However, there are a few things I DO remember.

I do remember IRI and its supporters pouring into the streets and shouting “marg bar Israel” and burning Israel’s flag on a weekly basis. I do remember IRI funding, training and arming the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah in their conflict against Israel. I do remember IRI President publicly saying that the Zionist regime should “vanish from the pages of history” or that “Israel is a stinking corpse destine to disappear”, or that Today” the reason for the Zionist regime's existence is questioned and this regime is on its way to annihilation". I do remember IRI holding highly a publicized exhibition, inviting known anti-Semites, questioning and in effect denying the Holocaust. I do remember IRI agents being under strong suspicion of being involved in blowing up of a Synagogue in Buenos Aries killing nearly one hundred Jewish people.

So in essence, what I saying is that, while I have no time for the Israeli government and would support any internationally agreed measure to hold that country to account for its actions in respect of the Palestinian people, I do know that reason why Israel is now viewing Iran with hostility is because the IRI has deliberately gone of its way to needlessly make Iran a target and an enemy of Israel. There was absolute no reason for Iran to find itself in the cross hair of obnoxious characters and war mongers like Benjamin Netanyahu, etc until the IRI decided it wanted to meddle in Israel’s conflict with the Palestinian and the Lebanese Hezbollah. Conflicts that have nothing to do with Iran and should not be the business of the IRI, which should instead be concerned with stopping the mistreatment of many its own people and improving the lives of ordinary Iranians.

So, if you are still reading, maybe next time before making blanket statements like "...I wonder what country it is that is at the forefront of attacking Iran..." , you’ll actually take time to reflect on IRI’s share of responsibility for placing Iran in danger of being attacked. And if you care to respond I’d appreciate if you refrained from calling me names.

Thank you.



by Mehrnaz (not verified) on

I wonder what country it is that is at the forefront of attacking Iran, and who are those sleezy characters lurking in and out of each and every thread rubbishing any positive report on Iran and Iranians and praising anything derogatory and negative. And THAT IS THE ONLY CONTRIBUTION THEY MAKE to the Iranian.Com! I wonder why that is!!!


Can we say...

by BK (not verified) on

...some people are obsessed with the Jews?

Sometimes I get the impression there are nearly as many articles on Jews and Israel as there are on Iran, on

I wonder why that is?


Islamist have a peculiar talent

by Balah Tar Az Khatar (not verified) on

They find one or two radicals who support their twisted world view and adopt such radical views as the "truth".

Islamist will find a Rabbi that says pigs are kosher. Guess what? As far as Islamist are concerned, pigs are kosher and all other Jews are wrong because of this one Rabbi who said pigs are Kosher.

I hope the same Rabbi loved by our Islamis tells them to jump of a cliff.


once AGAIN!!

by Q on

My dear STASI note taker,

That Jews (they) "see themselves as victims" now when they don't have to, is the characterization made by the Jew who wrote the article.

You see officer, it was just a misunderstanding. She was just restating the thesis. PLEASE! Have mercy, don't put Irandokht in your black diary! I will cry!!!

(can you imagine if people like you actually had any power?... shivers)


Why they play the victim all the time you ask? Because there's

by JusticeForAll (not verified) on

money in it. Look at all the money they collect each year from Euroupeans and Americans. Look at all the brainwashing they peform in US schools forcing kids to read the invented book of Ann Franks Diary while At the same time they stealing other peoples land, destroying a whole nation named Palestinians and conspiring to attack other countries in Middle East. Your gig posing as victims is up and your real intentions are obivious. Change your ways and join the rest of humanity.


Why are Islamist are so Ignorant?

by Balah Tar Az Khatar (not verified) on

Is it because they have made so many victims out of the poor people they have raped and pillaged in their 1400 year history? Can't Muslims see the blood on their hands in the Middle East?

Farhad Kashani

If a Jew talks about

by Farhad Kashani on

If a Jew talks about Holocaust, which is one of the biggest acts of genocide in history, he “sees himself as a victim”..!! But your beloved Muslims, who never, ever , experienced anything remotely close to that, and have population of 1 billion people, and tens of countries, and lots of resources, and all kinds of propaganda machines, don’t ever stop talking about alleged and imaginary “plot against Islam”, and “plots against Muslims” and “Islamophobia”..and they never stop silencing anyone who says anything that remotely sounds like a “critique” about Islam.


This double standard never seems to stop amaze me!


Mehrnaz jan

by IRANdokht on

baz taraf vez vez kard

velesh kon bababezar enghadr madrak jam koneh taa...




Zion you are so funny! In

by mehrnaz (not verified) on

Zion you are so funny! In another life we would have had such good fun together!! Shame you are so obsessed with record-keeping. Perhaps if you emerged from beneath your HUGE bundle of records you might feel a lot lighter and even see the light. Cheer up ... :)


Once again

by tsion on

[Must Jews always see themselves as victims?]

'the question posed here has one answer: "Absolutely NOT but they do anyway"!
How can you be as oppressive and aggressive and still play the victim... that's one of the all-time mysteries of this world. All those adjectives I read here apply to!'

The pronoun "they" above refers to Jews, just to remind you again, and not "Zionists" or "Neocons" or any of the other euphemisms that used to be employed previously.
Just a reminder what kinds of people are running this site once again.
I guess as the masters get nearer to the nukes, the less necessary it becomes to care about such "diplomatic" details when speaking to infidels.

Good to have these things for the record. Who knows... .



It is true actually !!!

by Mehrnaz (not verified) on

Irandokht jan, for those who think of themselves as "pure blood", 'poor blood' is a very apt description indeed! LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL They are badly in need of treatment of all sorts, blood, head, heart, you name it ...!


LOL Mehrnaz jan

by IRANdokht on

I hate it when that happens...

now that little slip is going to take life of its own and become peerhan-e osmoon 




Freudian Slip!

by mehrnaz (not verified) on

I meant to say "pure blooded European Jews", not "poor blooded"... LOL


It is not funny but it makes you laugh ...

by Mehrnaz (not verified) on

the sheer cheek of it!!! I agree with you Irandokht. But the question Sam is posing goes beyond living in peace in the Arab lands! He says before Mohammad and Islam those lands were Jewish lands and he is saying until such time that it becomes so again, the Jews remain victims! Oh, poor souls, what are we going to do about that existential problem? Clean up the land from the occupying Muslims and fill them up with poor blooded European Jews and throw some Etheopians and Iranians in for good measure. I could cry for you my little mazlooms...

Thinking about it, these bloody Palestinians, they have been Jewish themselves, and now instead of being real victims, they pretend to be victims, Ah ... cheats! At least in the olden days, before the Arabs appeared from nowhere, there was some notion of shame, not any more !


LOL sam

by IRANdokht on

sorry couldn't help it! I guess it's not funny, it's just sad...


the question posed here has one answer: "Absolutely NOT but they do anyway"!

How can you be as oppressive and aggressive and still play the victim... that's one of the all-time mysteries of this world. All those adjectives I read here apply to!



yes --jews had been victims

by sam_sc95051 (not verified) on

Before Islam and Mohammed, there were jewish people in Mecca/Medina and arabian peninsula.

Those lands were jewish lands.

can you imagine them going back to those places and living in peace again ?

until that happens, they are the victims of the first religious apartheid.


They claim being victims even when they try to annihilate anothe

by disillusioned (not verified) on

r nation. This whole claim of victimization of Jews is an old story. They are the ones who victimize now. Just today they forced an Obama appointee to resign because he had criticized Israel's police against the Palestinians. In today's world Jews are the opperessors. Look at what they have done to US foreign policy. Every American politician has to pass the litmus test of following what Israel wants them to do before getting elected to any office is US. Yes they are the ones who are manipulating and victimizing others in 21 century and not vise versa.