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Osaad

Yes, I have heard about Israeli occupation of WB as "illegal". Never heard the same about the Golan Heights.

Yes I do agree, peace with Pals, will serve Israel best interest. As long as the Hamas is stupid enough to listen to their masters in Tehran, keep provoking Israel with senseless terror, all under the lame excuse of "Resistance", Then force Israel to respond to stop the rockets and suicide killers, there can not be a genuine peace.

Just as much as Pals (and the rest of the Islamic countries) wish other to respect their wish to be defined as "Islamic" states, They must respect Israel's wish to define themselves however they wish - A Jewish state. I an glad that Bibi is calling the Pals bluff.

It works both way agha.

The type of pipe dream of "New Middle east" which the Mullah envision, is not going to happen anytime soon. Even if Iran does build itself couple of nukes. 

Why do Persians constantly bring up Cyrus the Great as proof

that they are friendly to Jews. Cyrus was a Zionist who wanted to return Jews to their homeland. The majority of Persians stand in direct contrast to what Cyrus stood for.

Mazloom, the Palelstinian politicians are no more corrupt than..

their Israeli counterparts. Sorry I missed adding the Golan to the list of occupied territories that must not have been annexed by Israel. It won't happen again.

International law does not only apply to "sovereign states" there are a myriad of international laws that apply to  refugees and "stateless" people - ironically the Jews have used the laws that protect the stateless people often. Maybe the Palestinians did not have a state but neither did the Jews. The problem is the Zionist-run Israel never intended to "share" the land with the Palestinians and have a state next to them. The only way Israel will opt for peace is through war or to be forced by the US. Israeli leaders have proven they are just as stupid, ideological and corrupt who don't shy away from misleading their people - that's exaclty what you're doing on this site.

I'm sure Hamas had given it a lot of thought who to ally with. Why do you think Israel is crying to join the ME big boys? Because the future markets for Israel is the ME but the only country that has kept Israel begging to join the "new Middle East" is Iran and you know it. 

The best way for Israel to "nuuteralize" Iran is to have peace with the Palestinians living in their own state. Iran has publically announced that it will comply with any fair and just peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians. It's high time Israel realized it has to opt for peace or the alternative is war. Foreingers tend not to invest in countries at war, and the Yabu knows this better than anyone. 

Ostaad Obviously you didn't read caefuly

In my earlier post I wrote the following:

The best solution is to help them establish their own state in WB &
Gaza, and repatriate any refugee who wished to move there. Other could
immigrate to other countries who are willing to absorb them. 

In your last post you come back with this:

I don't agree with you at all that Israel had any legal authority to annex the West Bank and Gaza.

Ahga baaz dobarreh shomah maan aa khe-jalatt middin.

I never spoke on annexation of WB & Gaza. Rather on Golan Heights. You are mixing two different  threads. In regards to WB & Gaza I was referring to their legal status in the eyes of international law. these two places are not declared as sovereign states - neither when they were under Egyptian & Jordanian rules until 1967, nor under Israeli rule since then.

Inhabiting and working the land is one thing, outright owning it legally is another matter. WB & Gaza were never recognized as sovereign states. therefore, the rule of International Law does not apply as it applies to a sovereign states.

Notwithstanding, it does not mean Israel has legal right to own it. I think we should let most the area back to the Pals - provided they are willing to recognize Israel under the same principal to which themselves (or any other state) wish to be recognized. Let them have their state. However, as long as Hamas still  declares their single minded position of destroying Israel and replacing with with their brand of Islamic caliphet - well they can forget about having their state under these conditions.

Just take a look at Gaza. Since 2005 when Israel completely withdrew from Gaza. Instead of take the opportunity to build themselves into a viable society. Transform it into a tourist attraction like the Egyptian did to Sharm-al-sheikh (after Israel gave it back to them). Or develop various industries to provide jobs and better standard of livings to their people. These Hams morons transformed it into hell house. They import rockets and explosives, to taunt Israel with useless provocations, so they can demonstrate their utter stupidity and myopic sights.

It is utterly unfortunate that, Pals have been led by corrupt and outright stupid leaders who misled them to where they are today. All throughout their recent history their leaders had allied themselves with the wrong leaders who lead them into the abyss.

Muhammad Al Hesseini and Hitler during WWII. His nephew,

Yassar Arafat and his alliance  with saddam Hessein, and now, Hamas aligning themselves and getting orders from the Mullahs in Tehran.

Although Israeli leaders had made few decision to which I do disagree, pinning all the blame for the Arab failures on Israel is not the answer.

Mazloom, I think you're either having too much fun, or...

you just repeat Zionist talking points hoping just to have said something, filling the cyberspace with super-sized Zionist kos-o-she'r. For the last time, let me say I don't indulge in hypothetical BS. 

Back to the issue at hand, I fully support Israel's right to exist right where it is, but within the '68 borders. I don't agree with you at all that Israel had any legal authority to annex the West Bank and Gaza. Where is the law that you're referring to? Nobody in his or her right mind is talking about "superiority" except for the Zionists and Islamists. That's why I consider both of the as plagues that have infested the ME and, it's Persian Gulf for you semites. 

All the annexed territories in the West Bank are occupied territories, and the Jewish settlements built the are ILLEGAL according to both the UN and international law.

Regarding the force thing, which you mention so cavalierly notwithstanding the consequences, let me tell you its not going to happen. Israel is barking to get a seat the table with the US, Iran and then Turkey and Iraq which make up the "new middle east".

Israel is dire economic situation with rising unemployment and dwindling foreign investment. Natanyabu's right wing neo-con economic policies which tantalized the US administration at the time when he was the PM, have left a bad taste in the Israeli people's mouths. He used the high-tech miracle in the West to create what he used to peddle as "The Silicon Waddi" get the US to invest there, but those policies have unraveled and the Israeli economy is in shambles. So, he'll come to the states and he'll do exactly what he's told by the adults, not because he's not an ass, but because he NEEDS the money. So no war, no worries. I hope you can handle that, Mazloom.

I don't know any sane person who says the ME must be all Islamic, except some zealots and you.

BTW, how do you know the inhabitants of Palestine did not LEGALY own their land?  

Ostaad - The question of cause and effect.

You seem to concentrate your arguments on the effect of Israeli action, while conveniently ignore the CAUSES of this conflict.

I can assure you 100% that, if tomorrow, hypothetically Israel declares the unimaginable , "it will submit to Islam, Or, if Jews have been another branch of Islam, by some  miracle effect, the whole Palestinians problem would not even exist.

Again and again I stress the point that everything has cause and effect. You and your co-hoards concentrate your effort on what has been DONE to the fellow Muslims, never sit back and consider, what THEY had done to merit these.

Perhaps if they look inside, and examine some of their 1300 year old doctrine, and realize that Islamic superiority over Jews (and other non-Muslims) is long gone, never to be back, then perhaps it would lead to better relationship  between Jews and Muslims. 

Had Arabs been  more tolerant back in 1948, and would have recognized that, ME & Gulf region are NOT sole Islamic enclave, where everyone else is secondary to their backward mantra. Have these Islamist recognized the fact, Jews also have their legitimate right to live in this area as sovereign and independent group. Had they negotiate on that track, we would not have been in this mess where we are today.

The fact is, Arab Leaders did not allow ANY independent Jewish entity, even their right to the 7% of  the land to which even the Arabs admit, it was purchased by the Jews and legally owned by them. The same is true with the Akhoodah Tehran. No Jewish  sovereignty. Well Screw Khameini & co. Who gives a rat ass what they think.?

Who the hell said that ME has to be a sole Islamic land?, where  they can obliterate, or otherwise control the holly site of Judea-Christianity?

The whole conflict my good  man, is not about piece of shitty land, it is about state of mind. Israel is part of the problem, but NOT the  only solution.

It is very unfortunate that, Israel, Jews and the Western societies have to use force to convince the Ahmads, the Hosseins, and the abdallah's of the Arab & Islamic world that, it is time to change. Stop doing just the talk (Islam is religious of peace), and walk the walk (to extend its hand for peace with those who do not share its values).  

come on people

Speaking of the [deed], for the lack of better word, and Cyrus the Great, wasn't him who returned the Jews to their homeland in 537 BCE?

[After the overthrow of Babylonia by the Persian Empire, the Persian ruler Cyrus the Great gave Jews permission to return to their homeland in 537 BCE, and more than 40,000 are said to have returned, as noted in the Biblical accounts of Jehoiakim, Ezra, and Nehemiah.]

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_captivity

Regards

-YT

P/S I think I am in love with Wiki juni ;-)

to say that israel is it's own worst enemy is...

uh... somewhat... STUPID.  the iri in iran is israel's worst enemy and dude... EVERYONE in the CIVILIZED world knows it.  to say you now want to "get off" the subject of the dead sea scrolls is just too dang bad.  you wanted it.  you got it.  that "mythology" as you like to call it is just as relevant to jews as cyrus' charter of peace.  and it's for damn sure that your precious cyrus' intentions have been completely misplaced by your beloved iri. 

the "here and now" seems to constantly change.  like the shifting winds of hypocracy.

I was not talking about what's in that sacred book of...

the Jewish mythology and folk stories. Can we please get off the subjects of dead sea scrolls and some old fiction book and bring it back to here and now?

You can't possibly convince any court in the "civilized world" that what you and your rabbis call a "deed" is valid at all.

How can a Jew who was born and raised in Argentina just move to the West Bank and "settle" with complete support from the Israeli government, but a Palestinian cannot get a permit to build on whatever land Israel has marked as part of Israel on completely arbitrary basis?

There won't be any peace unless Israel realizes there are going to be blowbacks for its war mongering activities. At this point Israel is its worst enemy and no wonder the Israelis elected Natanyahu to take them down the path of irrelavance and obsurity. The Israelis must realize that nothin was promised to nobody, and that's the only fact, jack.

Yes, God did give us the land

"After all God was your real estate agent and gave you the "deed to the land", didn't he?!"

The correct answer to that is YES. That is indeed what the Torah says and that is what Jewish people believe. Any rabbi who tells you otherwise is not a true rabbi. I can provide the relevant quotes from the Torah if you need further clarification.

ostaad - the scrolls

I was just responding to your specific and legitimate question about "show me the deed". meaning, bring a credible evidence of ownership.

My point of bringing the Dead Sea scrolles was intended to demonstrate that, Jews were present in this region long before Islam came about. Therefore, Jews (and the Israelis) have their legitimate right and place there, just as much as others.

It takes only a good will of tolerance to solve the  issue of legitimacy of presence on the land.

Israel occupied only 0.17% of the land mass (Gulf & ME). certainly there is enough land to accommodate each group without the need to "wipe out" one group in favor of another one. 

While we are at this subject. I am all for just a fair compensation for the  Palestinian refugees living in concentration camps in Arab countries. Unfortunately the land in Israel is not large enough to accommodate an influx of additional 6M refugees into the country.

The best solution is to help them establish their own state in WB & Gaza, and repatriate any refugee who wished to move there. Other could immigrate to other countries who are willing to absorb them.

The most important element, and challenge would be not economic one, rather, how do you tell an innocent Palestinian who was taught day in and day out that Jews are bad people, they are apes and monkeys who Islam must obliterate. How can anyone change their mind otherwise, after Arab population becomes a majority.

You see, this  is not an issue of politics or even economy, nor intrinsic social. Rather a religious one. Who  will dare to stand up to a Hamas clergy who will use the free speach  in Israel to incite hatred against Jews, citing direct passages from the holy Quran or the Hadith.In other words, leaders throughout Islamic world are hostages to the same monster (hate the Israelis) which themselves had created for past 60 years.

THIS IS  THE CORE PROBLEM AND MAIN IMPEDIMENT TO ANY PLAN OF CO-EXISTENCE BETWEEN ISRAELIS AND PALS.

ostaad

clearly, the most defined example of your sense of humanity.

what a class act.  not.

it is wrong but

I think it is naive to blame the Judaism religion or Jews for
failure of economy but I can see why many people said that.

Besides Mardoff, there is also Alan Green Span who is a Jew and
Fed reserve, and the entire banking system of US including Washington
Mutual (take a closer look at Wamu's logo) and many more who are in
financial sector in this country who had faults in this economy
failure who happened to be Jews.

But again it is very naive, and at many times anti semite of
people to just blame Jews for this because blaming all Jews for this
is same as blaming all Muslims for terrorism which is not true.
Furthermore I think people need to come out of the religion box and
see people beyond their religions and cultures. Some are good and
honest and some are bad and dishonest regardless of their religion.

Mazloom,

Your Farsi is fine.  The thing is I don't get what you're talking about, and I wish you were here so I could show what you could do with the dead sea scrolls.

That's all, dust-e geraami.

Give me a break

To say such a stupid thing that JEWS are responsible for the claps of economy is as saying that all Muslim are responsible for actions of Bin Laden.

Medoff is a white Color CRIMINAL and should be dealt as such. Besides most of his victims were Jewish charity organizations. Studies like these, no matter who conducts them and no matter for what purpose,  only will flame hate crimes. Sure it might be targeted at Jews at first[no pun intended] but what next? Who will be the next target?

Someone should tell these so called non Jews who gave those answers that if you do not like a Jew to be CEO of a huge bank, then go study, go to school, work your ass off, get promoted to that position then we shall see what you are made of.

HATERS and HATE crimes against any and all people MUST BE STOPPED. At any cost

-YT

it is the very intention of

it is the very intention of such surveys to promote a specific reaction.  "jewish american" investor versus "investor".  "jewish educational charities" versus "education charities".  that alone qualifies a specific reaction... one guaranteed to create negativism to the targeted group.

"the kid" in left field missed the ball versus "the fat kid" in left field.  the negative impression is already set. 

but smhb.  it IS refreshing to see that you're not being a hypocrite like so many others and pretending it's a "humanities" issue...LOL.  it's not like you're pretending you give a shit about the pals, for example.  at least you're up front and center about it being about "the jews". 

This is non sense

This is absolute non sense and unacceptable. Why should the entire group or race be held responsible for the actions of a few? Did those people stood as the representative of the Jewish community and religion? There are corrupt people, what does that have to do with the individual's origins?

People need to change. As Sohrab puts it: Cheshm-haa raa baayad shost - toree digar baayad deed.

Jews Holding the Purse Strings of the US: '1:326,128 Coincidence

Ofcourse they are responsible. They run and manipulate the entire financial system staring right with our private federal reserve. Just take a look at the names of the biggest firms and their executives. Goldman sucks being a constant at the treasury for over 80 years or more is a prime example.

And their response to their theft and plunder of planets resources is what? Anti semitism. What else do you expect?

//mathaba.net/0_index.shtml?x=598973...%3Ca%2...

ostaad - Yes there is such a deed

(agha, aabe' roo az soo-rate'-moon raft. Maan aa shomah khe-jallat midin).  please feel free to correct me.

It is shown in the form of "dead sea scrolls". A set of 2000 year old manuscripts written in ancient Hebrew language.

That should be a sufficient enough evidence for you to the validity of Jews rightful place in modern day and re-birthed state of Israel.

Why the hell not, ribbi?

After all God was your real estate agent and gave you the "deed to the land", didn't he?!

Jews back to the holly land?

I am buying my ticket to Israel. That's why we have Israel right?

Maybe then our population grows and we'll be more accepted as the original owners rather than evil occupiers.