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AO

Seems like I caught you dumb founded on the rest of my post! ;-)

Now I'm convinced

that you're illiterate.  I said Iran had the "second largest fleet of helicopters" you nit wit.  Plus, as I told you before, I do not represent the green movement or any other movement.  I know that it's hard for a non-Iranian such as yourself to realize this, but at least try.

None-sense abound! Some corrections are called for

None-sense abound! Some orrections are definitely called for!

Iranian military had the largest helicopter fleet in the world after the
U.S., many of which Khomeini auctioned off and sold to other nations
such as Pakistan

First of all, Iranian fleet of helicopters was not the "largest" in the world but it was one of! Secondly, There was nothing sold to other countries though there talks of such at te begining of Revolution as a backlash tto Shah's massive defence spending, however, it was never materialized. What pakistan received was some parts for F-16s that were never deliverd to Iran thus useless for Iran.

By the time the war started the once mighty Iranian army build by Shah
was in rags. That gave Saddam the nerve to do what he would have never
dared.

There were many reasons for that, one being the fact that Shah's armed forces were made to be loyal to the leader and not the people. The armed forces chain of command was still resisting the new government and its loyalty was questionable even after Shah was gone. Some actively ordered shooting at civilians protestors. The Paksazi started basd on such ground realities then. Things did change however once the war with Iraq started. The patriotism on all sides took control and the attention diverted to the fronts from all sides, thus stopping the degradation of the armed forces.  

 It's not a matter of carrying big guns or paying dues to anyone.
rather, it's a matter of common sense and self preservation when you
live in a tough neighborhood.  Even if what you say is true, perhaps we
should have "paid our dues" to prevent the death and maiming of more
than a million of Iranians and the destruction of Iran's economy and
infrastructure.

Is AO implying that the US is a criminal and opressive agent in the region? But he hides some cruicil facts such as, it was the US that "encouraged Saddam to attack Iran, It was The US that provided Chemical and biological agents to Saddam, It was the Us that forced so many UNSC resolutions against Iran (i.e. Gas masks were banned to be sold to Iran then). Also read between the line, he is advocating a national dependent strategy for Iran, what a joke indeed! From Mashrotiat uprising to Mossadegh and then to the revolution of 1979, the Iranian people were striving for an independent Iran yet AO, as an "Iranian Green patriot" is  whashing it all off. I don't believe he would DARE to say such things in a green gathering in Iran since he knows what will happen to him, they will throw him out. That may be another reason he is sticking around here and not among the Greens in Iran.

Look at it this way: if you have your family in a house and you know
someone is about to attack the house and kill your family, and the only
way to save them is for you to appease him --even though you have done
nothing wrong, what would you do? 

This was addressed above!

Pay your dues. What dues were we paying the US? Nothing. All they had
to do was to NOT take the Americans hostage. Not go around screaming
"marg bar amerika" and not unnecessarily alienate them.

That proves how little you know about ME geopolitics.  I really wonder,that if you do not have a sense of belonging to what and why your "people" did then, you cannot possibly talk anything on their behalf. You are a far better spokewoman for the US but not Iran, that much is obvious. 

My greater family the Iranian people ARE being raped! By the IRR and its
bullies. I am not suicidal but I do what I can to help them. 

Yes, indeed! you are asking them to do what you do not want to do and that is encouraging them to walk on line of fire (as you so vehemently claim the situation to be there) for you so you can Royally arrive in Tehran with a big smile!!!!! That is shameful! to say the least!

And to VPOK: If you truly believe in your #1 point/statement, then you
should be all for Iran to gain the nuclear bomb. Lets see how you will
come out with the support of Iranian Nukes 

Ghorbone Harfe hagh!!! But be sure, these people do not want anything more for Iran than to be a naked sheep twisted in sweet talk of Freedom , Democracy, Human rights and the rest of this jargon.

...........

bavafa the answere to the argument is clear;  for me khomeini, rafsanjani and the few other zombies that believed the war was NEEMAT are responsible for the bloods of the young Iranians.

P.S  who knows what's in a20 plus years old TABOOT ?                 Maziar

BAVAFA: At what cost are you

BAVAFA: At what cost are you willing to let the IRI get the nukes?? Will you be willing to go to war with a much stronger opponent? Is going to war with the enemy going to get you what you want???

OK, we agree to disagree. No need to beat the dead horse

I won't be able to convince you and you haven't make much headways in convincing me.

The original argument was not

- If Iran was more powerful under the Shah or IRI

- What would be making most sense to do when some body tries to rape you and your family

- If IRI is a better or Shah.

- Or what was the price of tea in china at the time

The argument was who bares responsibility for the death and destruction that was caused by Iran-Iraq war.

And to VPOK: If you truly believe in your #1 point/statement, then you should be all for Iran to gain the nuclear bomb. Lets see how you will come out with the support of Iranian Nukes

Mehrdad

Bavafa

VPOK: You make sure to carry big gun and pay your dues to the
neighborhood bully, because if you or your family are ever attacked or
raped, it would be your fault.

It is hard to make sense of the above but I will try.

1) Carry a big gun. If you mean should Iran have a strong military, well yes. I think 2500 years of history teach us Iran should have a strong military. Is this even a question?

2) Pay your dues. What dues were we paying the US? Nothing. All they had to do was to NOT take the Americans hostage. Not go around screaming "marg bar amerika" and not unnecessarily alienate them.

3) My greater family the Iranian people ARE being raped! By the IRR and its bullies. I am not suicidal but I do what I can to help them.

Bavafa

Here we go again with the Bolshevik propaganda.  It's not a matter of carrying big guns or paying dues to anyone.  rather, it's a matter of common sense and self preservation when you live in a tough neighborhood.  Even if what you say is true, perhaps we should have "paid our dues" to prevent the death and maiming of more than a million of Iranians and the destruction of Iran's economy and infrastructure.  Look at it this way: if you have your family in a house and you know someone is about to attack the house and kill your family, and the only way to save them is for you to appease him --even though you have done nothing wrong, what would you do?  Would you do: a) what is needed to keep your family alive, at least until you can figure out a less dangerous way to deal with this guy, or b) do a Kamikaze and get your family killed just to prove a point?

VPOK: You make sure to

VPOK: You make sure to carry big gun and pay your dues to the neighborhood bully, because if you or your family are ever attacked or raped, it would be your fault.

Mehrdad

AO is right again

The IRR and Khomeini's mismanagement of Iran were the primary reason for the war. He systematically dismantlement the intricate defenses that Shah had set up. 

• Broke Iran's alliances and turned former allies like the US into enemies.
• Wrecked the Iranian military leadership. Killed many; put others in Jail or exile.
• Sold off the valuable military hardward. 

By the time the war started the once mighty Iranian army build by Shah was in rags. That gave Saddam the nerve to do what he would have never dared.

Sorry, I am a bit dyslexic

I don't disagree that Iran under the Shah was militarily much stronger (mainly due to the fact that had the Mr. bully protection and support) or many military high rankings were either killed or left Iran. There is a lot of credit to be given to many of the pilots that were trained under the Shah's regime and fought bravely under Khomeni to protect their home land. I remember the stories of some pilots that left their family's faith in the hands of Akhonds as a retainer just to be allowed to fly and fight and many fought bravely and none betrayed their family or home land.

However, the argument was who was responsible for this aggression and the death of many on both sides.

Mehrdad

Bavafa

I didn't say burn, I said "burying" bodies, i.e., he had killed them.  Those are facts that can easily be verified.  In fact, when the war started, Iran was suffering from such shortage of pilots that the then president Bani Sadr had to personally go to Khomeini and beg him to release some of the pilots who were still alive, but jailed, so that they could fly the aircraft.  And as far as selling the helicopters, I read about it a long time ago, but I forgot where.  

AO: a lot of info here

AO: a lot of info here that I find them hardly credible (i.e. burning bodies, auctioning helicopter, etc) some times we exaggerate to make our point not realizing that the exaggeration discredits what we were trying to say at first place.

Having said that, the fact remains that Saddam attacked Iran, at least partially on behalf or with the help of US and other Arab nations. How well Iran responded to that attack is a different argument and will not take the responsibility away from the aggressor. This is as if to say, he raped her/him because she was alone on the street with no one to protect her and even worse she wasn't carrying a gun either.

Mehrdad

Bavafa

Iraq always had eyed Iranian territory.  But he tried it once when Shah was in poswer and got b**ch slapped so bad that it apologized, kissed Shah's shoulders and promised never to do it again.  But when Ayatooleh Hendizadeh came to power, he auctioned off Iran's military hardware (Iranian military had the largest helicopter fleet in the world after the U.S., many of which Khomeini auctioned off and sold to other nations such as Pakistan), and started executing highly knowledgeable high ranking officers.  Don't forget Khalkahli's "traveling courts" for the military, when he would who up on a base (like Vahdati--near the Iraqi border) at night, and by the next morning, they would be burying bodies of hundreds of officers that he had executed.  In their places, Khomeini put non-Iranian South Lebanese terrorists such as Chamran in charge of the Iranian military.  That's how Saddam was emboldened to attack Iran.  In fact, Saddam would have preferred to eat his own balls than to attack Iran if Khomeini had not come to power and decimated the Iranian military like he did.  And that's why the war was IRI' gift to Iran.  

That was more of a gift

That was more of a gift from Saddam that was given to Iran on behalf of US and other Arab nations.

Mehrdad