News

MM,

I am almost finished reading the article and I will get back to you tomiorrow. Thanks.

Rosie - all my references are from CAIS & Encycl. Iranica

First, I agree that Wiki is not entirely reliable and I actually agree with Rahgozar that if not 1st, Persia is a strong contender.  Even the Wiki table puts a 100 year difference in the begining of the respective civilizations, which is basically picking hair off the back of a flea with a pair of tweezers when trying to date events exactly to 3200 BC vs 3100 BC, and, the title of the blog says "according to Wiki,........."  But here, with Samsam and Q, we are arguing whether Elamites should be part of Persian history or not, which brings the next point.

Second, I am not a historian and I rely on The Circle of Ancient Iranian Studies at the University of London and Encyclopedia Iranica for references and guidence.  According to the experts at CAIS, Elamites are part of ancient Persia (based on the references that I provided) and we can beg to differ if someone says Elamites are not part of Persian history. 

And Lastly, the last article I quoted you actually dismisses the mythical migration of the Persians/Aryans from the land of the north based on climatological evidences, archaeological evidences, mythological evidences and old texts.  And, basically equates Elamites = Persians = Aryans.  Interestingly, the author puts a date on the climatological changes that have been referred to in the Old Testament as Noah's flood at around 5500 years ago ---> ca. 300 years before the start of Egyptian, Persian..... history.

MM,

Thank you for the article. I have printed it out in its entirety and will read it and get back to you on it in a couple of days. In the meantime I want to bring up a couple of points.The original issue here was that a wiki article puts Iran first in a list of countries by age. Q says the wiki list is not at all reliable and that the Elamites should not be counted when considering Iran as a 'country' (or 'state' or 'nation' or whatever, some kind of 'polity' along these lines). Sam later on agrees with him.

I pointed out the list of 'states' also from wiki which doesn't include the Elamite period. to make the pont that--whatever apparent contradicition there may be in Q's post--we have to admit that wiki cannot be considered a  source for this discussion.I think you do already realize this but I am spelling it out because this brings up the question of what question is actually trying to be answered here--if Iran is the oldest country? oldest civilization?--or simply what is the true origin and extent of the Aryan tribes in what is now Iran.

Nobody here was dismissing or not appreciating the pre-Achaemenid period here, as was suggested. Of course, definitely not Sam, but not Q either. (or me...).

Rosie - read article on Aryans -->(Ilamites=Persians=Aryans)

Aryans' Immigration

//www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Anthropology/aryans_immigration.htm

 By: Dr Reza Moradi Ghiasabadi

 This is a slightly long but very interesting article based on author's book on the same subject; Aryan migration.  Read the article to see why migration from the supposedly northern regions is improbable and basically:

Ilamites = Persians = Aryans.  

Based on Climatological Evidences, Archaeological Evidences, Mythological Evidences and Old Texts, the author states that:

"On the basis of above facts, the theory of Aryan migration from north toward the present Persia and Asia Minor does not seem feasible. What is more probable is that Aryans are native people who lived on this land due to its most favorable living conditions since antiquity. This is supported by abundant traces of civilizations found while there is no trace of any similar settlements in any nearby places. Cultural and civil changes of the Iron Age are indeed the rational development of the Bronze Age and not the result of the arrival of another tribe to the region. These native Aryans migrated to the high lands during the intense increase in rainfall and returned to their previous lowlands after the intense decrease in rainfall. They migrated from the heart of Persia at least twice after the great flood."

Then, in conclusion: 

........."On the basis of all the above facts discussed here briefly, it seems that Persians (Iranians) did not migrate with Aryans to Persia (Iran), but migrated ‘in Persia’ and ‘from Persia’ and moved to other places."

Hi. I am so glad to see the discussion has been

revivied here. I have had limited Internet access lately but I had been planning on coming back to this thread to reply to the post MM wrote to me (which referred to the one he wrote  to Q below it). I had thought a lot about it, actually. To tell you the truth I was kind of hoping Q would be continuing the discussion as well, but anyway I am glad to see that Sam is because I think it's an important one for numerous reasons. I am going to read the new posts carefully and make some comments maybe later today, probably more like Monday. 

samsam - if limit Iranian / Persian history to Aryan migration,

then you may be correct, but the Iranian platau was occupied before then by Ilamites.  But, in my opinion and many others in CAIS, we cannot ignore the pre-Aryan history of the Iranian platau which was occupied by "civilized" nation of Ilamites.  Also, see my previous sitings from CAIS.

e.g.

 //www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/History/Elamite/elam_history.htm

"Mesopotamian sources permit establishment of a relatively detailed map of Elam in the late 3rd millennium B.C.E., owing in particular to the "Geography of Sargon of Akkad" (ca. 2300 B.C.E.; Grayson; Vallat, 1991), a Neo-Assyrian representation of the extent of Sargon's conquests. It seems that Mesopotamians in the late 3rd millennium B.C.E. considered Elam to encompass the entire Persian plateau, which extends from Mesopotamia to the Kavîr-e Namak and Dašt-e Lût and from the Caspian (q.v.) to the Persian Gulf." 

or

//www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/History/brief_history_of_persian_empire.htm

"The civilisation on the Iranian plateau is very ancient; copper was smelted there about 5500 BCE, and Elam in the lowlands lagged only slightly behind Sumer in the development of hieroglyphic writing 5,000 years ago. However, the Elamites adopted the written language of Akkadian as the most universal language of the area for two millennia."

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Articles on  Ancient Iranian History and Histography 

//www.cais-soas.com/articles/history_articles.htm

PRE-ZOROASTRIAN PERIOD

Prehistory - Proto-Elamite (from 8000 BCE)

Elamite Period (3400-550 BCE - 1500 BCE)

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etc. 

PinoQ is correct :)

You can argue with Q all you want yet its futile to argue with his facts on this subject. So we shall elaborate that;

Iranian Statehood seeks its lineage to the legacy of Medeo-Persian-Scythian founding migrants whose arrival on the Zagross basin & highlands between 1500BC-700BC brought about a totaly distinct  cultural/liguistic/physical presence to the land formerly known as city states of Elam. Thouands over thousands of documents, artifacts & inscriptions adhere to this undisputable sudden cultural disruption of Elamite/khouz supremacy due to the introduction of the newly arrived IE tribes on the scene. These 21 IE migrant tribes were moderately connected via collective shared spirituality, language & lineage which differed in total contrast to the ways of the natives of their new found land. Among these 21 Aryeh tribes ,three(Parsua, Medes & Parthia/Zha Zaa) went on to form the later Aryenum based statehood of EranShatr-->Iran, founded & named after their lineage & value system. Others such as Scythians(Saka), Sarmatians, Alans(Alooni in mid Persian), Iberians,... were either merged in proper Iran or upon Hunish/Avars invasions of 3rd-5thAD moved west ward to establish the foundation of many European states such as Ukrane, Balkans or in Alans-Vandals case instigating the 1st Kingdom of Oyrleans in Toulous France and Iberian kingdom of Galacia. The English name Allen/Alan is one legacy of that Iranic tribe. I got carried away :)..anyhow

From Georgian/Ossetians Iron homeland, Oirleans, Oyria Goar dynasty of Caucuses Alebanians, Ireland & Iran & Araan their states are the legacy of this identity. So on that we must all agree with Q that Iranian statehood started with Achamenead which was built on the foundation of their median cousins earlier on and lasted until the end of Sassanids. & as for reunification of Iran post Safavid I go as far to say that I take the 5th ;). 

Historical achievments are not measured in Kilos, kilometers or numbers but the extent of their legacy. So big is not always better ;). & Q congrats, you finally are starting to make some sense . Guess rubbing shoulder with me on the site is paying off ha :). There is hope after all.

Cheers all!!!

Path of Kiaan Resurrection of True Iran Hoisting Drafshe Kaviaan //iranianidentity.blogspot.com //www.youtube.com/user/samsamsia

وطن فروش ها

شاه خائن بحرین را در سال ۱۹۶۱ تحویل انگلستان داد- اما خائن‌ترین دولت قاجار بود که ۶۰ در صد ایران رو به روسیه و انگلستان داد.

"placing too much emphasis on the Achamenids as the

founders of our country is a notion that needs a major revision. It originated from the racist thinking of early 20th century when we wanted to link ourselves with the Aryan race..."

Q's worst nightmare. This discussion is getting gooood!!!

lol

Q

I don't know much about this Q, but I notice he says:

"The problem with this and many other Wiki articles is that there are no clear standards for the scholarship."

while citing wiki as a source in the same post!

Well as Rosie says wiki has strengths and weaknesses but to dismiss it as a source while also citing it appears to be very poor scholarship. 

Q- Don't dismiss our Pre-Achamenid History

Ignoring more than half of the history of our homeland and placing too much emphasis on the Achamenids as the founders of our country is a notion that needs a major revision. It originated from the racist thinking of early 20th century when we wanted to link ourselves with the Aryan race promoted by Nazi Germany.  In order to further appreciate our pre-Achamenid history I invite you to pay attention to recent excavations and findings in Jiroft for example.

The question of what is the oldest country in the world is not a very well posed question and needs a lot of clarification. However,we should definitely not remove Iran’s name as a contender for the first position. 

Rosie - I used CAIS & Encycl. Iranica (not Wiki) in last comment

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Q - future belongs to nation who appreciates her past

"The future belongs to the nation who appreciates her past."

SOURCES/REFERENCES: The articles and news flashes below on ancient Persia were extracted from The Circle of Ancient Iranian Studies (CAIS) at University of London (//www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/frontpage.htm), a site dedicated for a Comprehensive, Informative and Scholarly study of ancient Iran and Iranian civilization.  In turn, some of the information in these articles have been referenced to Encyclopaedia Iranica. 

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The articles / news flashes in CAIS and Encyclopedia Iranica clearly show that ancient Persia has rich evidence of civilization dating to prehistorical periods and these two sites clearly place Elamites within the history of Iran.  For example

 //www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/History/Elamite/elam_history.htm

"Mesopotamian sources permit establishment of a relatively detailed map of Elam in the late 3rd millennium B.C.E., owing in particular to the "Geography of Sargon of Akkad" (ca. 2300 B.C.E.; Grayson; Vallat, 1991), a Neo-Assyrian representation of the extent of Sargon's conquests. It seems that Mesopotamians in the late 3rd millennium B.C.E. considered Elam to encompass the entire Persian plateau, which extends from Mesopotamia to the Kavîr-e Namak and Dašt-e Lût and from the Caspian (q.v.) to the Persian Gulf." 

or

//www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/History/brief_history_of_persian_empire.htm

"The civilisation on the Iranian plateau is very ancient; copper was smelted there about 5500 BCE, and Elam in the lowlands lagged only slightly behind Sumer in the development of hieroglyphic writing 5,000 years ago. However, the Elamites adopted the written language of Akkadian as the most universal language of the area for two millennia."

=====================

News flashes on Persian/Iranian excavations:

Story of 27,000 Year Old Life in Gavi Cave (Category: Prehistory) 

//www.cais-soas.com/News/2003/September2003/03-09.htm

Archaeologists Studying 7000-year-old Human Settlements in Khorasan (category: Prehistory) 

//www.cais-soas.com/News/2003/September2003/10-09-archaeologists.htm

Trace of Six Thousand Year Old History in Varamin Hills (category: Prehistory) 

//www.cais-soas.com/News/2003/September2003/28-09-trace.htm

Ancient Buried City Surfaces in Western Iran (category: 5000 years old Elamite Period) 

//www.cais-soas.com/News/2003/September2003/28-09.htm

400 Tablets Uncover Living Conditions in Haft Tappeh (category: Elamite Period)

//www.cais-soas.com/News/2003/September2003/30-09.htm

==============================

Articles on  Ancient Iranian History and Histography 

//www.cais-soas.com/articles/history_articles.htm

PRE-ZOROASTRIAN PERIOD

Prehistory - Proto-Elamite (from 8000 BCE)

Elamite Period (3400-550 BCE - 1500 BCE)

ZOROASTRIAN PERIOD (1738 BCE to 651 CE)

Median Dynasty (728-550 BCE)

Achaemenid Dynasty (550-333 BCE)

  - Cyrus the Great

Post Achaemenid/Proto-Parthian Period (333-248 BCE)

Arsacid/Parthian Dynasty (248 BCE - 224 CE)

Sasanian Dynasty (224-651 CE)

POST-ZOROASTRIAN / POST-SASANIAN PERIOD

Two Centuries of Silence (651-861 CE)

MISCELLANEOUS

General History

Chronological Ancient History of Iran, from 8000 BCE to 640 CE.

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etc.

Well, if you are going to argue about whether Iran began

with Elam based on a list of  of 'countries' from wikipedia, why not cross-check with the list of  'sovereign states' from wikipedia, which the countries list says on top it may be merged with (right above where it says the countries list lacks sources btw...)

It says Iran began with the Achaemenids. (This is a surprise?) Of course you can also check the wiki article on Elam to see whether it is written about as part of Persia/Iran. It says it's located in a place which is now part of Iran (this we know), and it says Elam ended with the Achaemenids (this we don't know??--and the Achaemenids having chosen Shoosh as one of the capitals doesn't change things).

__________________

Wiki is never considered a definitive source on anything. Its greatest strength is its greatest weakness-accessibility of authorship to all along with anonymity. (This we also know). Of course there is always the philosophical question as to what, if anything, constitutes a definitive (or in the case of 'news', even reliable) source, but whatever it is (or isn't), it ain't wicki.

_________________

The article on countries says Iran was the world's first superstate. That link doesn't work for me, but after discussing what constitutes a superstate so that Egypt and China can be ruled out, that may well be. Isn't that enough?

I guess Q's idea of Iran translates to Tehran and surrounding

Q,

Siglos, the first ever coin in the world, was attributed to the Persian Empire, but actually made in modern Turkey.  Would you want to change that history too?

Sorry to burst your bubbles, it's not true

The scholarship used in the article is nonexistent or a joke even. This is just some guy who made the list and no one seems to care enough to correct him or demand historical scholarship.

I like being proud too but not based on falsehoods.

Two major problems:

1. The Elamite civilization is not synomymous with "Iran" or Persia. Even the Median Empire isn't. The first independent "Persian" empire (i.e. soverign people who would call themselves Iranian or Persian) was that of Achamanids which was only about 550BC.

Saying the Elamite civilization means "Iran" is like saying the Neanderthal man lived in Germany, so Germans are oldest civilization.

2. The Elamite's aren't even the oldest. The oldest civilization is generally considered to be Sumer or a combination Sumer/Akkadian, which started earlier than 5000 BC, followed closely by Egyptian civilization.
//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer

The Sumerians, who were situated in today's Iraq also have a better claim to "nation hood" than Elamites. The "Uruk" period of Sumerian people's is what the nation of Iraq is named after. Iraq is older than Iran.

The problem with this and many other Wiki articles is that there are no clear standards for the scholarship. MM's other wiki article on sovereignty does not help. One needs concrete standard of judgement, for example adoption of agriculture (without it there is no civlization), that was done by Sumerians in the fertile crescent.

Also, the entry on Egypt consider's "unification of north and south Kingdom's" as the beginning of Egyptian civilization which is very arbitrary. By this standard the crowning of Cyrus the Great, or at least the Median Empire should be the beginning of "Iran." Even if Elamites could be considered a Persian nation-state, they did not even control "all of Western Iran" as the article says, so why would this predate the older Sumerian and Egyptian Kingdoms?

My dad was fond of telling

My dad was fond of telling us that, when we were kids.

.....

Cool info.....Iran should develop tourism......but I know there are a lot of distractions! Hopefully things will improve!

Thank you for posting!

thanks Mehrban - Vildemose, here is the link

that defines statehood as a sovereign country

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_state

MM jan: Your second

MM jan: Your second  link (yahoo's article) doesn't work. Thanks for the info. It's great.

Wow, this is really cool!

Thanks MM.