Anyway

Killing civilians is not justified in any circumstances.

unless ameircans kill, iraki and afghanis die.
I mean why never coms a word in "IRANIAN" about "their" Actions? Not that I accept what is written or showed hierb hier, but if we mean Killing civilians is so and so then why we never talk about the "Greate Killings"? Greeting

Bijan AM and Anonymou4now

Based on your analysis so far we can conclude the following:

- the deceased was a basiji
- he was 20 years old
- he was a robot
- he was an IRI puppet and the IRI law said he should harras people
- he was harrasing a couple
- he continued to harrass the couple
- the couple warned him to stop
- the male person got irritated
- the male person "accidentally" killed the basiji with his car, after his warnings to the basiji was not enough
- it is ok that the basiji died, it was good riddance
- it does not matter who the basiji was or who the driver was
- the couple were just a normal couple, like any other couple in Iran and tired of basijis and ready to kill them with their cars
- the killing of any basiji for any reason is justified as good riddance

Keep loaning each other watermellons. Do you want some tea or are you both comfortable? How about some pillows?

 Bijan Jaan, I don't have a

 Bijan Jaan, I don't have a monopoly on debating here, so you are more than wellcome to "butt in".

Ali Jaan: 

This 20 year old misguided Basiji is oblivious and numb to the suffering he and his ilk are causing.  He has become robotic and void of emotion and compassion for his fellow beings, allowing his brainwashers to take over his human instincts.  Surely you don’t claim that he is ignorant of the crimes this regime is committing against Iranians, at the hands of people like him, do you?  He is turning a blind eye to it all because his human sensibilities have become overridden by his ideology.  How could anyone live in Iran and not sense the indignation and misery people are going through and still continue his ideological torment of them?  You are too sympathetic to a 20 year old tormentor but all willing to demonize a young man fed up with taking torment.   

The whole world is poised to bombard Iran and from within men have to answer to a 20 year old as to why they are wearing ties and women on why they are showing hair.  The Incredible Republic of Idiots has overextended its stay and overdone its self righteous hegemony.  People are at the flashpoint of their anger.  I have no doubt this regime will fall some day but the scars of the tyranny of the past 30 years will remain with Iranians, for at least a generation.    

Dangerous logic....

With my apologies to Anonymous4now for butting in (again).

Ali Khan,

 You sound like a very decent and intelligent person but, with all due respect your logic is a little flawed. You say :

 “A 20 year old Basiji is not responsible for homelessness, drug addiction, poverty, corruption.etc in the society. If he harasses people on the street, he must only and only be held accountable for that”.

Would you please explain how are you going to hold him accountable for his harassment? Do you think you will have any chance of getting justice by filing a complaint against a basiji for his continued harassment? Do you in all honesty think that it is even thinkable to hold a basiji or any government agent accountable for their harassment in a system where those agents are protecting the ideology of that government? How can you hold them accountable?

No one is advocating vengeance or indiscriminant killing of government agents. (It MAY come to that at some point in the future when/if there is a unorganized revolution). But, in current state of affair you need to appreciate people’s frustration and their capacity for tolerance. The man or woman who confronts the basiji or other enforcer of the IRI rules, has reached the tipping point. He/she doesn’t care any more for what will happen to him (her) when he/she slaps the basiji, shoves him back, hit him with the bag in her hand, or in this case hit him with his car. And of course they will pay with their lives (or quality of their lives) for their simple act of resistance (or should I say outburst). Therefore it would be extremely insensitive to call, without hesitation, the true victims of these situations vengeful, vigilantes or murderers. My friend, you may not be a strong supporter of the IRI, but I believe you have deep and genuine religious conviction. I hope you keep an open mind and channel your love of humanity towards establishment of a TRUE democracy in Iran

To Anonymous4now

You are following a very dangerous line of logic; Pointing to some people (a particular stereotype of "hezbollahi") and connecting them to all the problems and sufferings of people in Iran and legitimizing violence against them!!

A 20 year old Basiji is not responsible for homelessness, drug addiction, poverty, corruption.etc in the society. If he harasses people on the street, he must only and only be held accountable for that. Not for all the pain and sufferings that people have gone through in the past 30 years! That of course, if you do believe in individualism (which is an essential element of democracy).

Let's say that people are justified to attack young Basijis for all the frustration and sufferings you named, now what about those who go to Friday Prayers? Is it also justified to attack them? How about those who participate in governmental rallies and those who go Emam Reza's Shrine? Should they also pay for all the sufferings since the revolution?! You see? This line of logic is very dangerous because it promotes undiscriminated violence and it stereotypes and dehumanizes a great number of people and cultivates hatred and violence against them.

Ali Agha

I like your style.  You seem companionate and caring, but I wish you would direct some of your compassion and care towards the people who have suffered and suffocated for 30 years, and not the thugs who have bullied and imposed their will on them.  Everyone has the right to live in dignity with freedom, but what you are saying to the majority of people is to take the indignity with stride because these misguided people will in time learn to coexist with them.  But I ask you again, how long more should people live with indignity?  Misguided or not, these thugs have overdone it and people have run out of patience.   

Have you read the poem Eagle, by Khanlari?  The eagle despite his love for life prefers to die than to live the long life of the crow with indignation (with kheffat).   elaahi az in tohmateh hastiam va raha (o’ God, relieve me from the indignity of this life, Razi artimany).   Everyone handles pressure differently, some walk naked in the streets, some have become homeless and drug addicts, some pick fist fights and this guy snapped over and killed his tormentor, effectively committing suicide.  It will take an act of desperation to get rid of this regime and I am afraid, people have become desperate.  I think your whole hearted compassion is misplaced and your sympathy should be with the people who are suffering the inhumane tyranny of this Islamic Republic.    

To zion

And I assume you must agree with the second part of my post which was:

But it also means that Israelis can not bulldozer people's homes, occupy people's lands, fire missiles in civilian areas, imprison people in their own towns, cut off their electricity, gas and food supplies, build "security walls" in the middle of their farms, kidnap their elected representatives, monopolize and steal their water resources, defy U.N resolutions, defy every convention on human rights and kill, humiliate, torture and destroy people's lives on a daily basis...by the name of "self-defense"

The question is do you hold yourself up to that?

Anonymous4now and Bijan AM

You guys can argue till you turn blue. Your message to Iranians in Iran is if a basiji or any other law enforcement official ask you anything, prepare to kill and actually kill and it will be good riddance. You are sanctioning killing (not necessarily murder) and think that is ok. Neither me nor either one of you know anything about the killer and the real victim in this case, the deceased. He lost his life. Without any evidence you are rushing to judgement. So argue till you turn blue, it doesn't make any difference in this case, because you know NOTHING about it.

To Anonymous4now

Well, as usual some people are sitting in L.A and San Fransisco and promoting violence and chaos inside Iran.

There are millions of average people in Iran working in governmental institutions as police officers, ministry staff, military personnel...etc they can not be held accountable and punished for every crime that was committed in the past 30 years by the government.

You have either been out of Iran for so long that you have totally lost touch with reality or you are just interested in spreading the neo-con warmonger's propaganda for purely political motives. Who has ever been stoned or hanged in public for talking to a girl on the street?!!!!!!!

I know that basijis can be real pains in the ass and cause people a lot of trouble and headache and I agree that people should confront them and protect their own freedom. But this doesn't mean that they have the right to hit them with a car and resort to violence or murder. Basijis are not robots, most of them are just Iranians like us who happen to be misguided. They are usually from lower classes of the society and belong to traditional families. In many cases, they are the young brothers or sons of the martyrs or amputees of war and they believe that they are protecting the values that their fathers and brothers lost their lives for. What they ultimately need is education and dialog with other fractions of the society, they need to be exposed to other perspectives and learn to respect other people's beliefs and life-styles. It is not by killing them or hitting them with a car, that we will achieve anything.

Iranians are a civilized and smart nation, let's not turn into a nation of vengeful hate mongers and trigger happy cowboys who only want to solve their problems through violence and vengeance.

Good

Yes, that's what it means. Killing civilians is not justified in any circumstances.

I'll hold you up to that from now on.

Ali

Iran is at the point of unstable equilibrium; one spark and Iran will fall into turmoil, revolting against this barbaric regime, which will have no hesitation, in killing the numbers of people they were claiming the Shah’s regime killed, in the 1978/1979 revolt.  Back then people were fooled into believing that the Shah was steeling from them and killing their sons and daughters and had opened a back door to foreigners to come and loot the nation.  

This incident is an indication of the disdain people have for this regime, unless you want to believe that this man, very likely to be a bread winner himself, is a senseless murderer who would have killed at another time or another place, had it not been for the rightful interference of this basiji.  It is high time for every Iranian to recognize how sick the Iranian society has become in enforcing the will and whim of a minority onto the lives and livelihoods of the majority.  The majority does not buy into the doctrine of adhering to prescriptions of a 1400 year old cult any more, and are at war with those who want to impose this cult on them.  

Do you know for a fact that this guy did not have a brother or a sister, a cousin or a distant relative, a friend or a co-worker who were killed or raped or unjustly imprisoned by the regime, or flogged for having private parties in the privacy of their homes, or how he felt when harassed by this basiji, not knowing what punishment may await him for his carnal sin (stoning, public hanging, lashing, imprisonment)?  How much more injustice can the people of Iran tolerate before you are satisfied in calling revolt against tyranny, self defense?    

I didn't want to get into a

I didn't want to get into a Palestinian vs Israelis debate. But since you asked I'll answer you:
Yes, that's what it means. Killing civilians is not justified in any circumstances.

But it also means that Israelis can not bulldozer people's homes, occupy people's lands, fire missiles in civilian areas, imprison people in their own towns, cut off their electricity, gas and food supplies, build "security walls" in the middle of their farms, kidnap their elected representatives, monopolize and steal their water resources, defy U.N resolutions, defy every convention on human rights and kill, humiliate, torture and destroy people's lives on a daily basis...by the name of "self-defense"

Ali

You said:
the notion of "self-defense" can be applied ONLY when one's life is under IMMINENT and REAL threat, NOT metaphorical threat, NOT a "gradual destruction" of lives...only a REAL and IMMINENT threat.

Does that mean those brave sons of Allah who blow themselves up to kill Zionist bloodsuckers or shoot at zionazi babies point blank shouldn't do this sort of things and excusing it as ...ehem...self defense?
By Allah, you blaspheme!

To Anonymous4now

I am sorry but what you are saying is just absurd; According to your logic the entire population of Iran is in a position of "self-defense" and so it is ok for them to kill anyone in uniform who bothers them on the street or is somehow affiliated to the government! This is giving a blanket legitimacy to murder for an entire population.

Every murder case is an individual one and has to be investigated as such. And the notion of "self-defense" can be applied ONLY when one's life is under IMMINENT and REAL threat, NOT metaphorical threat, NOT a "gradual destruction" of lives...only a REAL and IMMINENT threat.

In this particular case, this person's life was not under any imminent threat by the Basiji. Basijis do not kill people on the street for talking to the opposite sex, we have all been to Iran and we all have common sense. So this is not in any way a case of self-defense. It might be an "accidental death" caused by negligence, but hitting someone with a car and causing his death is still a very serious charge.

MurderNotForHire

You have crossed the line of sanity. How can you make nonsensical arguments like this? Were you there when it happened? Do you know the victim and the defender.  Has there been a hearing or trial in a court of law to convict the defender as a murderer?How do you know that this has been a premeditated and planned murder. Do you consider yourself as the only impartial judge in killing of your brother basiji? All we are saying is that people are fed up with harassment and cannot take it any more. They will react (even if it means risking their lives).  Why don’t you, as a true basiji, get off of this site and go out and harass some people who have a wedding party or a  Bar Mitzva or a guy who has long hair…….

Anonymous4now

First of all let's not talk about a story that did not happen in Colorado. We know this guy was killed. Yeah some guy threw a brick into the house of some Iranian guy and the Iranian guy shot the man outside his house and the court said no problem. I take it that you consider killing people in response to bullying, like what happened in the Columbine Colordaro high school or other school violence around America, act of self defense or justified rage? You know nothing about the basiji man who was killed, he may have been a bread winner and may even hated IRI. Did you talk to him? You know nothing about the man who KILLED the basiji. I know one thing, it is not easy to KILL a man. One man KILLED another. You are trying HARD to justify the killing of this man because he is a basiji. That's all. The rest of your talk about IRI and this regime had it coming is just nonsense. That's like saying don't talk about Palenstine and Israel, but let me link the KILLING of this man to IRI, to make it right, to satisfy my hate.

Ali and MurderNotForHire

 “The fact that the government of Iran has had a poor record on human rights in the past 30 years or that it has failed to respond to the needs of a large number of the population,”

This is an understatement, which does not do justice for the level of frustration and anger Iranians living under this regime feel.

“does not mean that we can classify it in the same rank as "foreign enemy" and legitimate acts of violence against anyone who wears a uniform or that we deem to be somehow affiliated to the government.”Well, it seems you have your facts confused.  

We are talking about just such an act that took place in the field.  The person who committed the act rationalized it as self defense to be able to do it, otherwise you would have to demonize him to the point of making a senseless murderer out of him.  

During the hostage crisis, in Colorado, a young Iranian student was being continually harassed by his American counter parts when, one day, one of the harassers threw a rock in through his window.  He grabbed the gun he had purchased for self defense and killed one of the assailants.  The courts found him not guilty, and considered the act as self defense, at the height of anti Iranian sentiments, in this country.  Applying digital logic here would end up finding him guilty of murder.

30 years of humiliation and torment, psychological and physical abuse are not enough to take action, which, in his case, almost certainly means suicide?  How else can Iranians be rid of this regime?  Turn the other cheek for another 30 years? 

 The Day of Judgment is upon the IRI. 

Bijan AM

You keep beating the same drum and forget this is about killing one person. You know nothing about who the person who actually killed the Basiji. For all we know he could have been a pimp kidnapping that woman and trying to export her to Dubai. It is not easy to kill someone. He killed the basiji and you are justifying his killing. It shows how much you actually know. You haven't given one logical argument about why he was justified to KILL this basiji. Do you understand what it takes to KILL someone?

OK, Ali1234

Now that you have calmed down and sound more rational, I beg your permission to voice my opinion in disagreement with your post. Although we may be diverging from the subject of this thread, I think our debate is relevant.  

In spite of your twisting my arguments earlier, I am by no means advocating violence or vigilantism. But, I passionately disagree with your belief that people in grip of the Islamic government can realize meaningful change through reform or as you put it “rational and constructive” methods.

It is my belief that there is no room for fundamental reform in fascist theocracy or for that matter any form of dictatorship (those contradict in terms).  How did the Islamic government came to be born 30 years ago? Was it through constructive and rational methods? Was it thru reforming a corrupt regime?  

I am by no means suggesting chaos, lawlessness and civil disobedience is the path to tangible reform. But, as a realist I strongly believe that the change would only come through organized resistance against dictatorship.  Unfortunately, history and human nature have shown that there is no such a thing as “bloodless” fight for democracy.  

There will be heros who would eventually emerge as leaders of the fight for freedom and all we can do as followers of such leaders is to keep our fighting spirit and our resistance alive to allow such leaders to grow to maturity before they are silenced and taken out of the battleground. We can do that by stopping (or at least slowing down) Islamist propaganda around the world. By exposing the atrocities committed by the regime. By supporting those who criticize and at times threaten their existence......  

It is my belief that, to keep our fight for freedom effective, we should make it priority 1. Our dislike for US's (or the west as whole) foreign policy should not distract us from our number 1 goal, FREEDOM.  

Please, please, please, I beg you to not bring Israel-Palestine issue into this debate. Let’s just focus on Iran.

Kind regards,

Bijan        

To Anonymous4now

There are some people who believe that radical and violent methods are the way to solve Iran's problem and some others who prefer more rational and constructive methods. But that aside, it's one thing to argue for one method over an other and it is a totally different thing to mix up definitions and confuse facts and metaphors to justify violence.

The fact that the government of Iran has had a poor record on human rights in the past 30 years or that it has failed to respond to the needs of a large number of the population, does not mean that we can classify it in the same rank as "foreign enemy" and legitimate acts of violence against anyone who wears a uniform or that we deem to be somehow affiliated to the government.

We Iranians really need to bring some rationality and methodology to our social and political debates. This trend that anyone creates his/her own definitions and applies them in whatever way he/she likes, is one of the main reasons why we can not take any step forward.

Anonymous4Now

Murder or manslaughter, take your pick. You are justifying killing someone and saying it was an "accident" or he "deserved it" or "crime of passion" and so on and so forth. What do you think those who kill and end up in courts say in their own defense? Same things that you are saying and they get convicted anyway. "Good riddance"? You are salivating for the killing of ONE human being and expanding and relating it to everything else to justify your view. This is a killing, don't sugar coat it. Can't you be happy for something else? This tickles your fancy?

Well said Anoyomous4now.

Well said Anoyomous4now.

Good Riddance

That is all I can say about this character and hope to see more of them go to heaven and get their 72 virgins.

Ali Jaan

"That's a huge fallacy to say that the I.R has the same function as a foreign power invading and occupying a country during war time and thus justifying the killing of anyone affiliated to the government!!!"

It is only a fallacy in that the invading army would adhere to the Geneva convention and the IRI has stepped out of the norms of human decency from the first day it grabbed power.  Their practices of genocide of the minorities, torture, stoning, public hangings, cutting limbs off and throwing people off of tall buildings place them amongst the worst and most cruel enemies the nation of Iran has ever had.  

The problem here is one of perception.  Some people have a defeatist attitude (I don’t mean this in a derogatory way) and believe that the IRI must be accepted because of the shear fact that they have been around for 30 years.  Any grievances against them is old news and, although they killed and committed atrocities in the beginning, things are getting better since they are not killing as many as they did in the fervor of the revolutionary days.  Uprooting this regime would be a backward move and a loss of all “the achievements” of the past 30 years.  They believe in reform and that that one day things will be better.  In contrast, I believe you cannot compromise you values and principles and should call wrong, for what it is.  Any material progress, even if we accept that premise, at the expense of human suffering is regression and not progress.  While some people believe that the IRI is an experiment that will eventually succeed, whole generations of Iranians are suffering the consequences and losing out on this short life.   In addition, any reform accepted by the regime is a weakening of its grip on power, which means a reformed judiciary would prosecute the crime of those in power, today.  The regime will not roll over to be weakened and prosecuted.

If you have talked to any Iranians inside Iran, or those who have left the country recently, you will get a good sense of the resentment and frustration they have, living in this apartheid of the khodies and naa-khodies.  Unfortunately, for Iran, our debate will remain a debate and will continue to be just a debate, because our observations and perceptions are so different and so diametrically opposed.  But inside Iran, anger is brewing and, as I said before, we should expect a lot more of such vengeful incidents.    

Finally

My wife was tortured and raped daily for 2 months because she took a picture. The police did this to her. Before this killing of a human beeing was unforgiving in my veiw. Now.. All IRI supporters deserver nothing less. All who supports the regime should get their own meds..

God is great.. And the final judgement will come.

To Anonymous4now

That's a huge fallacy to say that the I.R has the same function as a foreign power invading and occupying a country during war time and thus justifying the killing of anyone affiliated to the government!!! You can not use terms such as "invasion" and "enemy" metaphorically and act upon them in the real world.

Again, let's not lose our sense of rationality for sake of pure sensationalism.

Well Ali, you have trapped

Well Ali, you have trapped yourself in your own ideological alley.  Hamas and Israel are bitter enemies and so they kill each other (Israel attacks Hamas hideouts, Hamas attacks Israeli civilians).  The Iraqi insurgents and the Al Qaeda terrorists are bitter enemies of the Americans and so they kill each other (Americans target the insurgents and Al Qaeda, but Al Qaeda and Iraqi insurgents kill indiscriminately), and in an unintended parallel you created, the IRI has invaded and pillaged Iran, and raped, tortured and killed Iranians like no bitter enemy would.  You should expect a lot more of these killings in this war, just as you accept the killings of American soldiers and Israeli settlers. 

Well, if people's

Well, if people's frustration and anger due to 30 years of oppression can justify murder, then I guess you should also justify the killing of Israeli settlers by HAMAS after 60 years of oppression and occupation!

But you see, the "values" of people like Bijan and zion is only applied selectively. When American soldiers are killed in Iraq, despite all the crimes that they are committing in this country, Bijan mourns their death as "young American servicemen". But when it comes to the death of a young Iranian man who happens to be misguided, then not only he doesn't regret and mourn his death, but he states that he would kill the guy himself if he was "man enough" to do it!!

So, it is perfectly legitimate to kill a young Iranian man because he keeps bothering you on the street when you are hanging out with your girlfriend, but killing foreign American soldiers who have destroyed and occupied your country and killed hundred of thousands of people, is an act of "terrorism" and "insurgency"!!

As a Bahai I condemn this murder

People of the Bahai faith condemn murder. The action against this individual is murder. Bahais don't get involved in politics. Bahais are peaceful. Why is there so much hatred. We should all live in peace.

Pathetic Twisting of Reasonable Stances

I have been following this with interest, because I believe it throws a very crucial light on the situation in Iran. What I find most pathetic is the way defenders of the Islamic Regime try to twist this. I don't see any murder here I see a typical islamist brownshirt harassing people and getting killed in an accident. What Bijan (and some other comments) have been correctly pointing out is that no tears need be shed for such accidental deaths arising from ordinary oppressed people reacting to harassment and trying to defend themselves. If anyone needs to be supported, it is the people who are harassed. If you want to prevent violence, you must understand this and fully support the population in their demands for justice against their oppressors, and instead try to divert it towards legal measures like public trials in a free future, like Nuremberg Trials. Otherwise, by denying the anger and trying to suppress it with pseudo-intellectual arguments you will only get blood baths and lynching.
Wait and see.