Thank you for clearing the air, particularly the distinction between Azeri and Tork.
I'm for Persian language as official national language. And embracing the education of our different Iranian languages where needed. I also support the education of one of non Persian Iranian languages to Iranians of Persian tongue.
But if we can communicate in English now, surely we can communicate in Persian, all around the country... officially.
What I'm seeing here is very typical of this contemporary generation of Iranians; constantly banging on about the past because its trendy to do so without having a firm notion of relativity and without realizing history is almost always distorted by those who write it.
One individual is saying Azeris should pay for their ancestors'(Safavi dynasty) misdeeds i.e converting Iranians to Shia Islam. Lol that's a first its usually the Arabs who are blamed for converting Iranians to Islam now its the Azeris who are blamed for converting Iranians to Shia Islam.
Another individual is saying it's a contradiction for Azeri's mother tongue to be Turkic when they fought against the Ottoman empire to preserve Iran, that’s like saying its a contradiction for an Iranian Kurd's mother tongue to be Kurdish because he may have fought against Iraqi Kurds in the Iran-Iraq war or better yet a contradiction for an Iranian Arab's mother tongue to be Arabic because he may have fought against Iraqi Arabs to preserve Iran.
Another thing that perturbs me to say the least is this whole notion that Azeri Turkic shouldn't be spoken in Iranian Azerbaijan because once upon a time it wasn't spoken there it was some old Iranian/Iranic dialect like Talish and only when the 'terrible' Turkic tribes arrived the language was replaced. Ok that’s almost like saying in England people shouldn't speak English because once upon a time the language was some old Gaelic/Celtic dialects before the Angle tribes and Saxon tribes replaced these languages with Germanic dialects that evolved into English. Azeri Turkic has been spoken long enough in Azerbaijan to now be the intrinsic language (many Iranian Azeris from my grandparents generation can barely speak Farsi).
And please don’t go on about what Ahmad Kasravi said about how the language was an import and Persian should be the spoken language in Azerbaijan and his opinion has great validity because he himself was from Tabriz. Kasravi was part of that whole generation from the Reza Shah era who were into all this Iranian nationalism. Kasravi was a sellout to the Azeri people and the fact that he opposed Shiekh Mohammad Khiabani’s insistence on protecting journalits who wrote in Azeri Turkic led to Kasravi having an open split with Khiabani, which thus eventually led to Kasravi being deported from Iranian Azerbaijan because he criticized the use of the Azeri language in the province [Ervand Abrahamian,”Communism and Communalism in Iran:The Tudah the Firqah-I Dimukrat ,” International Journal of Middle East Studies, Vol. 1, No.4 (1970), p.294.] So we can see how popular Kasravi was in Azerbaijan.
Today the Farsi/Azeri language journal Varliq is one of very few if not the only the only Azeri language journal printed in Iran that has survived since its inception at the start of the revolution. Azeri is allowed to be SPOKEN in Iran but not taught in schools which has brought about a situation were Azeris living in the Azeri provinces can of course speak Azeri but basically cannot read or write in their mother tongue which has thus brought about a further situation (the plot thickens) in which the language has been greatly saturated with Persian words. Also since Farsi is the language of education, academia and all the main media in Iran some middle class and upper class families living in Iranian Azerbaijan have started to speak Farsi in their homes rather than Azeri as Farsi is perceived as the language of progression due to all the elements I have just listed.
With the current regime’s policies the progression of the Azerbaijani Turkic language will be greatly hindered. This poster is not racist to Persians its simply saying what many Azeris feel on an emotional as well as rational level; if you are into preserving Azeri language and culture these sentiments are manipulated to you being a pan-turk and a separatist. I hear people saying I am an Azeri but not a Turk, well Azeri is an abbreviation for an ethnic Azerbaijani Turk. In the west Azerbaijan province in Iran half the population are Kurds but they are not referred to as Azeris it’s the Turkic speaking population that are referred to as Azeris. My family are from Tabriz and always referred to themselves as Turks not Azeris this Azeri business is something new and a more prevalent term in the Rep of Azerbaijan rather than in Iran.
Being a Turk does not mean you come from Turkey it means you are Turkic by ethnicity on linguistic grounds not genetic grounds (in case people want to start talking about DNA). Take note its an ethnicity not a nationality so being a Turk does not contradict being Iranian. And the Azeri language despite having many Arabic and Persian loan words is a western Oghuz Turkic language with intelligibility with various other Turkic dialects notably Turkish spoken in Turkey. My Persian relatives in Iran refer to my family as ‘tork’ rather than Azeri with no thought of Turk being an unpatriotic term. And for a language they will say torki baladi not Azeri baladi. Generally we are all Iranian but people must recognize the diversity of Iran and not think to oppress this diversity or feel threatened by it.
Your foul mouth, ignorance and backward way of thinking is not worth any more of my time and energy. You keep waiting for whatever it is that you think you are due and keep looking back while the rest of the world is forging ahead.
Some how, I'm not surprised to see so much ignorance from the descendents of Seljuqs, Ghaznavids, Khawrzmids, Ilkhanids, Teimurids, Safavids and so many others. The supposedly trilingual fellow has reaffirmed negative Turkic stereotypes, all in one paragraph: A zealot ( Gheirat) ignorant and illiterate fool!
Now this is not about picking fights with Turks, or other Azaris. This is about knowing history and acknowledging historical facts. Moreover, you Turks have no business crying about abusive Fars. Turks are the most dominant group in today's Iran, close to a majority. They are not confined to northwestern part of the country either. There are Turkic tribes all over northeast (Khorassan) and all the way in central and southern provinces like Fars (yes, in Shiraz).
The mess we are in with Shii-eh Islam and a whole host of other social and cultural ills is directly related to Turkic presence and rule for the past few centuries. The Shii-eh Islamic fanatic depicted in this cartoon should be Qezelbash Turks who carried out the genocide of converting Iran into a Shii-eh country, and they came from Azarbaidjan. This is fraud and cowardice on your part. Stand up shoulder-to-shoulder with the rest of the country and fight the Shii-eh Islamic tyranny with the Fars, Kurds, Lurs….., and clean up the mess created by your religious-cultural heritage, you OWE it to everyone!
This was an eye opening experience for me. I had no idea such strong anti Azeri feelings existed and had bought into the whole "we are all Iranians" bit. The jokes are one thing, but to be expected to carry centuries worth of baggage, despite a glorious history, is another. What a no win situation to be in. To be treated as “less than” but be criticized for wanting out, which (presently) I absolutely do not subscribe to.
Disclaimer: This is a general statement about this thread as a whole and truly is not directed at any particular individual.
Not only there is no disrespect to any peoples in my comments, but I am their voice here.
Every war has its own circumstances. To generalize, they conquered because they could, because they prospered that way and because that was a measure of their greatness. It is all very simple; the more ruthless they were, less problems they had from the defeated. That was the mentality of the time and it was effective. To judge them with today’s values would lead to invalid conclusions. What makes Cyrus great is that he was an exception to this rule and he was light years ahead of his time. To actually expect for Azeris and Turkman to apologize to the Persians for foreign invaders like Ottomans, Moguls, Tatars, etc. would be absurd. By the same token, Safavids were Iranian and fought the Ottomans while making tremendous contributions to our culture. To expect Azeri’s to apologize for the Safavids is also absurd. Regarding the language, it is a big part of the Azeri culture and literature; to try to force the Persian language onto Azeris is equally absurd and wrong and not likely to happen.
It is not my intention to participate in any kind of divisive discussions. I'm talking about the history, that is what happened and we can not change the course of our history, the only thing that we can do is learning from our past by discussing it. There are some issues that we have in our country with one specific group of Iranians that can be solved through dialogue and discussion. That is what I don't understand, if we are Iranians, I mean all of us from all ethnicities, then why some of us always get hurt when we talk about our history or about our enemies? Thanks for your comment and I'll move on.
History buff? What do you mean by that? It isn't the right response to my comment, could you please enlighten me and tell me something about the context of historical events that you know and I don't! give me an example.
Yes, Nader shah was a criminal and I don't blame Idian or Afghani if they call him animal, why it should be offensive to me? He was from central Asia and Iran was occupied by them. That's what I am talking about, you need to read the history before jumping into conclusion and launching an attack. Do you know why Mongols have attaked iran and killed 1/2 of Iran's population and destroyed the whole country? Have you ever heard or read about Mohammad Kharazmshah?
As for Dr. Kasravi (a great IRANIAN), as you mentioned I don't agree with all his views, specially with his act of burning books including Hafez's book. But it does not make him less Iranian. I'm not blind like some people to make an Imaam from someone and agree with everthing he/she says, in fact it shows your bazaaree mentality to buy everything from everyone!
I didn't ask you or anyone else here to respect me. Please respect my people, my culture, my language....... Am I asking too much? I say it again, speaking in arabic and turkic is insulting Iranian people and if you don't get it then bad for you. We Iranians do not like Arabs, turks and mongols and there are a slew of reasons for it.
We never heard from Arabs, Turks and Mongols a word of regret or apologizing to us for all the crimes and genocides that they have committed in Iran. Germany send each year a political delegation to Israel for Holocaust memorial day to apologize to Jews for the genocide and ask them for forgiveness. Why we never heard something from turks/mongols and Arabs? Business as usual!
I like it, when you know the answer of your own question, yes Turks/mongols and Arabs are the ones who are capable of doing ethnic cleansing and genocides. Good that you don't deny that!
i agree with your earlier comment that this cartoon is propoganda and is meant to divide the iranian people. it is trying to take attention from the most pressing problems that are facing iranians. therefore, we shouldn't ignore your advice and participate in divisive discussion the way this thread has degenerated. secondly, i don't think by name-calling, you'll change the hearts and minds of anyone; you'll just stoke the fire of those who resort to racism (any which way).
Since you are a history buff, you have to understand context. A Turk, Afghani or Indian who has a superficial understanding of history and does not appreciate context of historical events, may say about Nader Shah, what you have said about Turks and Arabs. As for Ostaad Kasravi (an Azerbijani, thank you very much), frankly I am surprised someone who claims to have read Dr. Kasravi’s works has Hafezieh for his avatar. Yes I know, it doesn’t mean you agree with everything he said, you just pick and choose conveniently as if buying fruit. So this whole thing was to trap me for an AHA moment, so that once again you get admiration for a likeminded compatriot and feel intelligent? So much for honest exchange of ideas.
There is very little respect for someone who is so dogmatic and mot’asseb that insults whole cultures and peoples. What is next, ethnic cleansing? Oh, I forgot, that’s what animals like Turks and Arabs do!
Once again, I agree to disagree and wish you continued blissful life.
I should not call Arabs and turks animals and I need to apologize to all animals for camparing Turks and Arabs to them, because what Arabs and Turks/Mongols did to us and other nations, no wild animals would do to one another. You need to read the history(Arab invasion, Turkish invasion, Mongol invation of Iran) to understand that calling them animals is very harmless and actually very human in regard of all the crime and genocide that they have committed!
Azaris speak Turkic which is a branch of Turkish language. You might start reading Dr. Kassravi's book, or just read the history to see that such a language was not spoken in any part of Iran before turkish invasion. That is the point of my ????.
Somehow my rather lengthy response didn't upload. Here is the short version:
Calling Arabs and Turks animals is ethnocentric, sorry not racist. Your comments regarding Khamenei were out of line because Azerbijan is equally repressed and has risen, as historically they are the first to rise (Khoramdins, Mashrooteh, Democratic uprising, 1979, Zanjan). Using Persian and Iranian interchangably is inaccurate at best and telling of superiority attitudes as Iran does not begin and end with Persians. At the end of the day, Azeris speak Azeri, not Turkish and they are different languages. I still don't know what you're getting at with the ?? (question). In my eyes peoples are what it is all about and none is better or worse than the other. I would stand up for Lor, Kord, Arab, Albanian, Azeri, Chinese, Turk, Persian or any people that are being short changed. Iran is made up of Iranians who share a bitter sweet history as do all nations.
Look, I have read your stuff and we are in the same camp when it comes to IRI. Minority issues are not a front burner item at this time. I agree to disagree on this.
Most probably you don't know the meaning of Racism. What is racism? Why do you think trying to save our iranian identity, culture and language is racism?
What is Persian supremacy? As I stated before Iran was ruled in the last 1400 years by Arabs and Turks. How could we have a persian supremcy when Iran was ruled and occupied by those animals? Persians were and still are victims of racism in their own land. Do you think before you write? Accusing others of being racists does not change historical facts and does not solve any problem? In fact, we could call you azaris of being such, for example we might ask: Why Azaris don't fight the IRR? Why they don't help their fellow Iranians to get rid of this barbaric regime? Is it because one of you Azaris, I mean Ali geda Khamanie, is the supreme leader, the one who is killing and raping our people and turning Iran to a second Afghanistan by looting iran's wealth and resources. Why don't you Azaris do anything about it? Speaking of war with Ottomans doesn't solve our problems of today!
You did not answer my ???
Why Azaries insist to speak in language(Turkic) of their enemy who had invaded their country, killed and raped many of them?
P.S. We are discussing an issue. You are expressing your views, and I'm mine. Stop the BS like labeling others as racists.
Iran engaged in ten wars with the Ottomans from 1526 to 1822, many of which were fought at the Azerbaijan border; the battles are a matter of recorded history. The language spoken in Azerbaijan is what it is. What's your point? Azeris let the Ottomans in through the back door? It was all a big anti Persian conspiracy?
I am very surprised at all the anti Azeri sentiments here. We talk a big talk about Iran, but when it comes down to it and shamefully so, there is a lot of Persian supremacy and racism out there. Cyrus who is the pride and joy of all of us formed Iran by uniting many tribes equitably. It is chauvinistic and downright unpatriotic to uphold Persian and put down non-Persian dynasties. They all had their glorious, and believe me body, not so glorious moments and there is nothing to gain from engaging in a peeing contest on which were worse. You need to hold on to something for identity and pride, make it Iran in its entirety and all of its glory.
If "Azeri’s were the first line of defense against the Ottoman Empire
(Turks) and bravely stood up to the empire that occupied much of Asia
and Europe. Having fought many wars and given much blood and endured all the hardship that Ottoman Pashas could dish out;......".
Then why Azaries insist to speak in language(Turkic) of their enemy who had invaded their country, killed and raped many of them? It doesn't make sense to me, how about you?
"The issue is the ability to teach and publish and conduct official business in ones "mother tongue".
Is Turkic the " mother tongue" of Azaries? If yes, why Azaries have fought Turks whenever they attacked Iran? What was the spoken language in Azarbaijan before turkish invasion?
The issue is the ability to teach and publish and conduct official business in ones "mother tongue." I don't think there are any master plans to attack or enslave "the Persians!!"
I was being very modest with my criticism of another negative Turkic attribute by calling it "thin skin". I should have called it correctly: "Gheirat", or "Geerat" (in sweet Turkic tongue). Offending someone's "Gheirat" has always been a reference to reactionary and many times violent tendencies of the Turkic culture which is now part of the modern Iranian lexicon. The concept has been taken so far as to justify a number of criminal acts, including "honor killing", most prominent in Turkic regions of Iran.
ejazeye ma dast shomast. ejazeye video dast aghay kiarostami. be har hal ma paroo mizanim che too barf che too darya. :)
Having a 'thick' skin is not a requirement for being a citizen. And apparently feeling being 'attacked' shows that you don't have it either!
I just made an observation that's all.
"You don't see it, by *they* do."
Didn't even realize that. This is another negative attribute, "thin skin". Always looking for the slightest ambiguity to launch an attack.
Btw, they have always been free to speak their language, why do you think most have such thick accents ?
Looks like you are talking about foreigners. *they*
You don't see it, by *they* do.
Albatt'e ba ejaaz-e hamsade ghadimi!
You can not change historical facts. Azarbaidjan is not 100% Turkic. There are a number of other ethnicities and cultures that live, or have lived in today's Azarbaidjan. The Turks have displaced many through their migrations and brutal rule in that region. They have since dispersed throughout Iran over the centuries and have established multiple dynasties that have ruled Iran for centuries now. They have established the most cultural, political and economic influence in modern Iran. More than any other minority.
On the other hand, their presence and influence on the Iranian plateau has not been all that glorious. Many of modern Iranian social and political ills can be directly traced back to their influence, from bloody Savafids and their Shii indoctrination and genocide to the social/cultural ills of the Ghajars and many other negative attributes.
If they want to be a more progressive group, open and tolerant that is fine with me. BUT, this should not be at the expense of the Persians, or other Iranian ethnicities that they have conquered and abused for centuries. Speak your mother tongue in Tabriz and Tehran to your delight and do whatever you damn please without threatening and damaging others and their interests around you.
As long we established a ground rules, we can talk about it, no, we MUST talk about it as much as we want. To know more about the title:
To those who look at Azeri's as outsiders and less Iranian: The language spoken by the people who occupied Atropatene (now known as Azerbaijan) is called Avestaee because it was the language Avesta was written in, as Zoroastrianism was founded in that region. Is that Iranian enough? Now the Irony. The Irony is that Azeri’s were the first line of defense against the Ottoman Empire (Turks) and bravely stood up to the empire that occupied much of Asia and Europe. Having fought many wars and given much blood and endured all the hardship that Ottoman Pashas could dish out; evidently Azeri people now have to endure the anti Turk feelings to boot - the anti Turk feelings that are actually anti Ottoman and not Azerbijani.
Irony continues. I think we have proven the point of the cartoon that the issue of Azeri language itself can be a political football and be kicked around to many ends to advance a variety of agendas.
چه قدر ساده لوی هستید که همتون به جون آذریهای بیچاره
افتادیت بابت یه کاریکاتور که معلومه ساخته یک آذری نیست. بابا، اینها رو
فقط برای تفرقه انداختن بین ایرانیان میسازند و متاسفانه اکثر نینیهایی
که این سایت رو میخونند، درست همون کاری رو کردند که سازنده این کاریکاتور
میخواست به دست بیاره. از ماست که بر ماست.