REVOLUTION

Rosie Rosie Rosie

Oh dear I wish growing of children could be that fast, bam wham good bye Haj khanom, and there is your future soldier for the up coming confrontation by the next season.
Come on, a little intelligence does not hurt. Do you realize what you are saying does not make sense on any level?
1- children do not grow over night, to raise another crop of soldiers it take at minimum 16 years, 3months of banging the wife, 9 months of pregnancy, 15 years to be war ready.
2- socialogically, if you create a trend you can NOT reverse it ad hoc
3-Iranian people are not robots to be told go to bed make babies , or stay away form Haj Khanom tonight.
4- Does it kill any one to admit that population control in Iran via Government programs has WORKED.

IRI Family Planning

Except for the prohibition on abortion, IRI's family planning policies were considered for about a decade to be the third most comprehensive in the world, after China and I don't remember somewhere else by UN and various NGO's. The original IRI go forth and be fruitful Catholic style pro-reproduction campaign was not religious in nature to my understanding, but designed to provide bodies for the military. After Iran-Iraq War ended, Mullahs had to face the devastating economic consequences of this campaign, overpopulation, underemployment, etc. and pragmatically, as always, speedily and efficiently reversed the trend. They knew now that they had no enemy to rally the people around, they would have to deliver some of the economic promises of the Revolution, or they would be ousted. Unfortunately it seems that the flanking of Iran by U.S. occupation on both sides has caused a return to the status quo ante of go forth and be fruitful in preparation for the new battle, along with the other concomitant miseries of hardliner policy the miserable policies of George W. Bush have unleashed on the people of Iran.
My take on it,
Rosie T.

Baby Boomer's puzzle solved.

The reason Iranian population is under control and and actually will be declining by 2015 to 67million, is the massive campaign of education and advertisement against multiple births by the government of Iran. I think due to cooperation of expat IRI haters and American media demonizing Iranian government, positive news out of Iran becomes a puzzle. Every one runs around chasing their tail and wondering how to interpret the news. If you have traveled to Iran in past 15 years you would have seen numerous posters advocating small family, plus family planning centers and a fatwa issued by one of the Ayatollahs to give women the right of abortion when mothers health is in danger. There is your answer, you did not need to look at CIA's stat. The only thing you Anglophiles believe is CIA The source of lies and deceit.

REPY TO: Islam =

REPY TO:
Islam = Oppression
by Anonymoos (not verified) on Mon Oct 22, 2007 08:47 PM PDT

You are not Iranian.....You'rea Lost Identity soul trying to define your new being. Soon your generation will be offrooted by tremendous force of wester culture. All you have left for you from persian culture is Chelo-kabob and a name.........Wake up and be a real persian who repects 70Million people who don't even give a damn to what you're. Don't tell me you found your true persian identity in the west.....hahahahaha.

I have no idea when we're going to give up all this racist attitude and put all our energy in making the world a good place for us and others!

just to clarify!!!

I just wanted to clarify some point about your conclusion!!!
Population growth rate has nothing to do with immigration rate!!! you compared the IRaq situation and the fact that 3.5 M people have left the country!!!! but,thats a seperate fact from new born rate!!!! I thought you should know that.
CIA fact is not the best source ,but yet it is a very reliable and up to date resource. I am currently a graduate student in management and my academic colleages and many professors rely on CIA fact for many referenecs... If you suggest any other resources that might be more reliable that CIA fact,,then please share it with us instead of critizing others for using this site.

This is a fantastic discussion

This is a fantastic discussion. Can't you stop insulting each other and just keep discussing for the benefit of yourselves and others who want to learn? You're all well-educated and well-equipped with sources and ideas to discuss the complex confluence of history, politics and demographic trends (except AnonyMOOSE). You're obviously the best and the brightest. Why spoil it with name-calling?

Question the statistics

Just did some quick research in CIA Factbook pages.

To compare apples-to-apples, I looked at only one category, "Population growth rates" for:

Iran .663%
Canada .869%
USA .894%
Turkey 1.04%
Israel 1.154%
Saudi Arabia 2.06%
Iraq 2.618%
West Bank 2.985%
Gaza 3.66%
UAE 3.997%

The only conclusion I can draw from these figures is that the CIA is as incompetent at compiling population facts as it was in understanding what was going on in Iran in 1979 and as it is in understanding what is going on in Iran in 2007.

In 2007 Iraq has a higher rate of population growth than the USA? Has anybody in the CIA noticed that nearly 3 million Iraqis have left the country and another half-a-million have become dead Iraqis?

Why should CIA numbers be trusted?

Iran's rate of population growth is only somewhat smaller than Canada's rate of population growth, which is only marginally smaller than that of the USA. Is Canada undergoing some destabilizing revolution? Is Canada ruled by religious fanatics?

Back to the drawing board, Kamran.
Perhaps you could look at growth rates in Europe post-WWII; perhaps it is the case that wars create long tails of depression as people deal with rebuilding their cities, their homes, businesses, institutions; as they deal with the ravages to their bodies and their health; as they try to heal from the attacks on their psyches and their confidence.

That's what warmongers foresee and plan for as warmongers condemn a nation and a people, like the Iranians, to war and fear of war.

sahar - you sound like a retard

it's one thing to engage in a debate.but it's another thing to be an emotional freak that attacked other people's intelligence. there you have it.
anti-persian bigotry? wuhahaha.

Idiot,I didn't say whether I support secularism or not.You might want to read carefully while putting aside your emotion. I was just pointing out that secularism has little support in Iran. The problem is that, that argument sounds like a blasphemy to most secularists. So they attacked the poll and worst, called those who pointed this out as people who are brainwashed by the IR.

You are deluded

Iranians didnt embrace Islam , it was shoved down our troaths by the force of the sword... pick up a history book not published by the IRI.

No body is telling people to drop their religion, just keep it out of the government. again a miscomprehension. Secularism is not a anti religiouse movement, its a movement pro seperation of church and state.

if you are against the mullah regime the first principal you should be defending is secularism.

Governments should be charged with the well being of its citizens in this life regardless of their religion, not their situation in the afterlife.

seriousely anti arab bigotry? are you kidding me?  how about your anti persian bigotry?... have your religion just keep out of the domain of my personal life in MY home country.

Dude, please stop using big words you cant possibly start to comprehend... obviousely you know how to read and write...pick up a book start educating your self... that is your prime responsibility in a democracy..

missing the point

you guys are missing the point.
Yes, Iranians considered themselves as Muslims first but that does not mean they support the Mullahs. 43% of Turks considered themselves as Muslims first too ( even in a secular fascist nation that deprived Muslims/Kurds their rights..Islam is not dead).
Islam is a religion that transcends race,ethnicities and borders. When Iranians considered themselves as Muslims first, they are refusing to succumb to racism and nationalism ( not that anti-arab bigotry is dead in Iran).
The problem with secularists is that while they are eager to bash the IR, their hatred was pointed at Islam.This is where they were out of touch with the complex nature of Iran.
Some secularists went a bit unhinged when they suggested Iran should return back to Zoroastrinism so that we could taste our golden years back.( Hello,have you not read how Iranians rebelled against the priest of Zoroastrinism before the coming of Islam?). Some idiots suggested we should return back to the years of Pahlavis.
In the journey to seek justice in Iran and Islam, the least we want is injustice towards Iran and Islam. It is a religion that is Iran. We embraced it, we moulded it and we spread it. It is a religion of Bosnians and Indonesians alike - not just Arabs.To assume that Iranians are either backward/stupid to believe in Islam is the first reason why secularists have no future among Iranians.

Wrong link?

In Sociology it is also a well known fact that fertility rates drop during times of economic recession, or the times when the outlook on the future is not so bright. basically the people in a society that would under "normal circumstances" form a family are not secure enough in their social and economical standing to do so. The largest demographic in Iran today could be said are at an age where in most societies one would start a  family. however their economical standing is not what one would expect of a prosperouse society. look at the unemployment rates for the ages 24- 35

The raise in fertility in 1984 was due to Khomeini calling on his ommat to reproduce, and create the muslim militairy force.to fight with the infidels...

you are right about one thing the social revolution, revolution being significant change... there is a significant demographic change in iran that has its roots in the 80's

And to anonymouse an Islamic Democracy is an oxymoron, itsa controversy in it self that can not exist.  Any form of government based on religion has been proven in the history of man to be highly discriminatory and dictatorial. And than their is such thing as Islam ... well the word it self translates to submission. not the best basis for a democracy.

The notion that a democracy is solely the will of the majority is a miscomprehension on so many levels ..  a true Democracy is the will of the majority while not trampling on the rights of the minority.

I am no political scientist, but even I have that one figured out. please pick up a book before you start polluting cyberspace with political notions that are comparable to a discussion about wether or not Sataclause exists, and if he would be willing to run for office..

Islam = Oppression

Can you Akhoond lovers keep your f'n stats to yourselves. Let the rest of us who are Persians first at least bask in the thought of a secular democratic Iran. Besides, why wouldn't most of these reeshoo losers want a Moslem identity--considering that guys are running the show, essentially running an institutionalized gender slavery system.

I think haha is right

If you look at all the data, the numbers on other questions kind of match with reality. So, I do not think this report is totally wrong or off the mark. It is an unfortunate fact that Iran is a religious society and Mullah's will be around for a very long time. It is also a sad fact that Iranians consider themselves Muslim first and Iranian second. May be some day that changes.

USIP

If your only source is USIP who facilitated organization such as the Iraq Study Group (ISG), co-chaired by James A. Baker, then I have to say that I feel sorry for you and others who rely only on that site which supports bureaucrats with no credibility.I'll rest my case...

To kermanshah4life

nah, it's you who are delusional.

the poll is from here:
//www.usip.org/iran/iran_presentation.pdf

I assumed you have met 4% Iranians who identified themselves first based on their ethnic groups and extrapolate it to a hysterical level.

To Anonymous-haha

I'm not sure where you are from nor where you get your polls from so I guess you are delusioned. As far as the Iranian kurds, baluch and even some azeri's are concerned they want a secular federal Iran. So please don't speak on behalf of all Iranians. Get your fact straight. Peace....

Islamic democracy

okay..but did you go through the latest pew poll too?

62% Iranians identified themselves as Muslims first, Iranians second. ( I doubt christians and bahai will identify themselves based on their religions). 35% of Iranians, most of them young wanted Iran to be a more conservative nation while 15% want the country to stay the same. 31% on the other hand want Iran to be more secular/liberal.

Granted, the secular left in Iran has the loudest and sanest voice, but they do not have the strongest voice.

I believe Iran will choose to be an Islamic democracy with both the principle of democracy, such as the right to choose your leaders and the right to criticize them are combined with the principle of Islam such as against usury, immoral acts.

Those students protesting Ahmadinejad at Amir Kabir university were the ones who coined this term. So,not to let you guys down but Iran will never be a secular liberal democracy.

well it might, if Iranians are sick with Islam.but that will not happen till the end of time.

where's the logic

Where's the connection between low fertility rates and changes in government and/or social attitudes. Just because it happened in two other countries, it does not mean that it will happen to Iran. Did I miss something?

Totally!

I think a lot of us feel that only a rather violent revolution could change the scene in Iran, and bring about some sort of democratic system. Some people are so engrossed in that type of thinking that when they notice improvements in Iran they get mad! Some get mad only because they think that this is some sort of stamp of approval of the current regime. But the reality is, it has nothing to do with this regime. The fact is, a society normally moves on a course of progress all by itself. A repressive government can do a lot to slow such progress down or even reverse it, and the mullahs did quite well in slowing down the progress of Iran. But Iranians pushed forward anyway. Some Iranians, having fought with this regime in many different ways and for so long, sometimes fail to realize that their efforts have in fact paid off. There was a time when the mullahs were very intent on taking the country back by 1000 years or more but let's realize that people didn't allow it. Sure, there was much damage done but not nearly as much as what was in the plans! Today, with a potential US attack on Iran, we are at the verge of another disaster, just like the one that brought mullahs in power (created by the same shabby character too). If Iranians proceed in averting such a war, Iran gradually and steadily will continue to move towards a better state. It is a falsehood that a strong government in Iran could cause disaster in the area. Only weak governments bring about disasters and degraded conditions. One should not be afraid of change. Don't listen to the threats uttered by Ahmadinejad and the likes. As soon as more of the oil money pours into that country, and as soon as such characters get used to luxury, they'll stop advocating destruction. Revolutions have never really helped a country, if we look closely. Only evolution and hard work can cause progressive motion forward. Let's realize that we have all had a win here. Iran is in fact moving forward, even if still a little slow. But even the speed will pick up as things gradually improve. Even when you look at Israel, sure they established their existence by overwhelming force but if they ever want to have peace, tey will have to make sure their neighbors have as stable and strong a agovernment as they do, otherwise it is not going to happen. Just look at how much trouble the US has with Mexican over-immigration and all the problems that comes with it. They can build a wall (like they did in germany) but the real solution is too look into Mexico and decide to take responsibility for that area.