EUROPE

Programmer Craig

Europe is not equal to European Union. European Union is like Nafta. It does not have any foreign-policy power nor military power.

You are right that European countries did not say anything in the matter, and it is not their place to say anything. That is why I said US media and not US government earlier.

If the Danish government would have taken side of the paper more than allowing it print the caricatures it would be as if government decided what should be printed in the papers. And it did not take complaining countries side since it would break the laws of Denmark. The Laws of free speech.

They just made it clear to the  complaining countries that they did not supported the printing or any other offensive act on any religion, but they would not do anything against it since it is totally legal to print anything (almost).

Your point about American media offending muslims is not valid here since I talk about standing up for freedom of thought and speech and not offending someone.

It is very alarming that not even one US paper printed these caricatures as part of solidarity act. It shows the lack of pluralism in the US media. They could be very well controled.

You should also think about how the agressive (noncoward) policy of Bush administration has worked killing tens of thousands if not more civilians and thus breeding muslim extremists in a country that used to be secular (Iraq).

American politics in the middle east is always going to fail since it is made for Israels best and not USA. It will also fail since it is very short sighted (supporting Saddam, Talibans, Mubarak and all other tyrants to get the oil cheap and fast).

I do not support the European inactivity either. They should be more involved in bringing peace and prosperity to the region but not the American kind.

P.S I think it is very good that you visit these sites and that people like you and me meet and discuss since It widens both our verizons and help to bring understanding and peace.

/Bidar bash ke ma bekhabim

There aren't as many

There aren't as many westerners on Iranian blogs as Arab blogs for some reason

I've noticed that too. I wish more westerners contributed to Iranian blogs; non-Iranian's perspective is sorely lacking on this site.

choghok

You seem to either have very short memory or you change your views very
fast. First you complain about europeans being coward and not stay up
to their beleifs but when I show you that it is not true and that they
stay up for the freedom of speech you say well who cares.

Where did you shoe mw "it's not true"? I remember the incident quite clearly. I was active on a coupel dozen Arab blogs at the time, and the issue was the "hot topic" for a couple weeks. The Euros completely caved. Not the newspapers - the govrenments.

It is true that the charicatures in the newspaper was not an
American issue. But it was not a German, French or Swedish issue either
It was Denmarks issue.

You've never heard of teh European Union I take it? :D

Yet newspapers in these countries said that we
should show that we defend the freedom of speech by not kneeling to the
religious extremists and printing the charicatures.

Newspapers are privately run. The positions taht European governments took was quite different.

No Media in "home the brave and land of the free" thought the same.
They thought like you probably nobody cares in US so why should we
defend the freedom of speech. We might lose some business deal as well.

I've never noticed a reluctance in the American press to offend Muslims. You have!? 

Are you Iranian-American?

No.

Or just interested in following Iranian.com?

Yes. I started reading Arab and Iranian blogs about 4 years ago. And started reading Iranian.com before that. There aren't as many westerners on Iranian blogs as Arab blogs for some reason. Maybe because of Iraq? Whatver the reason, it's unfortunate.

Other anti-Islam voices

Why I criticize Islam and Muslims

Why I left Islam

Mani264, what on earth are

Mani264, what on earth are you talking about? Obviously you’re showing your class (lack of it) by insulting me, so, your character assassination to discredit her position is actually backfiring because of how you’re showing your true, uncivilized character.

Furthermore, get out of the bubble around you, “wash your brain” cause obviously you are brainwashed and answer my question and stop dancing around the issue, who are anti Islam crowd in the U.S associated with Harsi, and how are they anti Islam? What is the definition of someone being “anti Islam”? If someone criticizes Islam, is he/she “anti” Islam? How about constructive criticism?

This notion going around the last few years initiated by Islamic Fundamentalists, centered around Iranian regime, and promoted by leftist propaganda machine in the media, about labeling whoever dares to criticize Islam, or Muslims, or anything that has to do with them, of being “anti Islam”, and this “victimization” mentality, is fading away, trust me, and you know where mostly, let me tell you, staring in Muslim countries themselves. Open your eyes.

To Farhad Kashani

You did not respond to my comments. You simply decided to tag them. To call them "character assasination". Which means nothing. If you had any logic buried within your brain cells, you would have responded to my comments instead of assigning a generic title to them.

You asked "Who are the "anti Islam" crowd in the U.S and specify how are they "anti Islam"?" If you have not figured out the answer to these questions on your own, my explanation wont help you either.

As I said in my original comment, I am no fan of Islam myself. However, I dislike opportunists who get on a band wagon just to get thier 15 minutes of fame (and money). Ms. Ali is one such creature.

Andishe think about Taslima Nasrin

Why is Ali a hero? Has she helped anyone? Has she enlighten anyone in a right way? The only thing she has done is seeking the spot light and to be pawn of the Rasistic movements in Europe.

Her attacks on Islam and muslims not rational and very personal. The way she talks is full of arrogance and hatred against all muslims. She believes all muslim men are violent for example.

She has turned from being an fundamentalistic muslim supporting Rushdies fatwa and Sharia to be a fundamentalistic antimuslim. 

I would very much hail the Bangladeshi writer Taslima Nasrin. She embodies the fight against the fundamentalist Islam. She does not seek approval of the west and she knows what she talks about.

The difference between Taslima Nasrin and Ali is the difference between Nelson Mandela and Robert Mugabe. Nelson Mandela foguht Apartheid and stayed humane even towards the colonialists. Mugabe fought Apartheid and became an extremist on his own.

/Bidar bash ke ma bekhabim

be careful now

people have to be careful not to fall into the trap of the right wings in Europe.

while she is a hero, she is also now victim of right wings, ie. nazis and marked liberals who many are (not always openly) racistic and anti-immigration.

she was a victim of Islam, now a victim and a tool of the nazis and the right wing in general. 

//andishehblog.wordpress.com/ 

Programmer Craig

You seem to either have very short memory or you change your views very fast. First you complain about europeans being coward and not stay up to their beleifs but when I show you that it is not true and that they stay up for the freedom of speech you say well who cares.

It is true that the charicatures in the newspaper was not an American issue. But it was not a German, French or Swedish issue either It was Denmarks issue. Yet newspapers in these countries said that we should show that we defend the freedom of speech by not kneeling to the religious extremists and printing the charicatures.

No Media in "home the brave and land of the free" thought the same. They thought like you probably nobody cares in US so why should we defend the freedom of speech. We might lose some business deal as well.

On a totaly different topic:

Are you Iranian-American? Or just interested in following Iranian.com?

/Bidar bash ke ma bekhabim

Just Politics

If she commented about judaism would she get so much publicity?

Look deeply into her eyes what do you see??

choghok

American TV might have covered the story but American media did not
participate in the solidarity act. And that shows just how much freedom
of speech is worth in USA.

Does it? :D

Well, we are all entitled to our opinions, yes? I view it as a non-issue for the US. A show of solidarity would have been pointless, and probably counter-productive, as it was European issue first, last and always. It wouldn't ahev eevn beena  blip on teh radar if those cartoons had first appeared in an Akmerican paper. What are Muslims going to do, march in the street burning American flags and chanting "Death to America' or something? As if...

Programmer Craig

There is a difference between covering a story and participate in an act. I give you an example: If I film a group saving a guy I am not a hero but If I join in then I am a hero. American TV might have covered the story but American media did not participate in the solidarity act. And that shows just how much freedom of speech is worth in USA.

/Bidar bash ke ma bekhabim

Killing women publicly, desiring them secretly

Women’s disadvantageous position in the Middle Eastern societies stems from a sick mentality that “kills women in public, while it desires them in secret.” These are the words of a liberal Muslim woman, Bisnat Rashad, who has become the latest target of a fatwa and death threats after publishing her book “Sex in the Life of the Prophet Mohammed”.

She has been declared infidel and added to the hit-list by the Egyptian home-grown Islamists. This is a terrible violence against both women and liberals in Egypt. Al-Azhar, the highest ranking religious body in Sunni Egypt, has called on the authorities to ban the book and prosecute its author.

The statization of religion and the religiosity of the authoritarian state have had far-reaching destructive effects for intellectual thought, democratic practice, and political change. Bisnat Rashad is another innocent victim of this process: the fusion of piety and power.

A Great Hero

She is one of the great heroes of our time, a Solzhenitsyn for our age. Thanks for the article.

mani264, your character

mani264, your character assasination of a liberal, human rights promoter figure such as Harsi is only gonna backfire. Its not gonna work.

Also, tell me who are the "anti Islam" crowd in the U.S and specify how are they "anti Islam"?

mani264, your character

mani264, your character assasination of a liberal, human rights promoter figure such as Harsi is only gonna backfire. Its not gonna work.

Also, tell me who are the "anti Islam" crowd in the U.S and specify how are they "anti Islam"?

Anyone gonna comment on the

Anyone gonna comment on the fact that the patriarchy has found yet another way to utilize the world wide web for its nefarious purposes? The whole idea of misogynist Islamic jurisprudence against women is utterly sickening but that it has now been taken online, well, you’re just going to have to excuse me while I go make another notch in the “win” category for the male domination…

Who is Ayaan Hirsi:

Ayaan Hirsi Ali (pronunciation (help·info); Somali: Ayaan Xirsi Cali; born Ayaan Hirsi Magan 13 November 1969 in Mogadishu, Somalia)[1] is a controversial Dutch feminist, writer, and politician. She is the estranged daughter of the Somali scholar, politician, and revolutionary opposition leader Hirsi Magan Isse. She is a prominent critic of Islam, and her screenplay for Theo Van Gogh's movie Submission led to death threats. Since van Gogh's murder by a Muslim in 2004, she has lived in seclusion under the protection of Dutch authorities.

When she was eight, her family left Somalia for Saudi Arabia, then Ethiopia, and eventually settled in Kenya. She sought and obtained political asylum in the Netherlands in 1992, under circumstances that later became the center of a political controversy. In 2003 she was elected a member of the Tweede Kamer (the Lower House of the Dutch parliament), representing the People's Party for Freedom and Democracy (VVD). A political crisis surrounding the potential stripping of her Dutch citizenship led to her resignation from the parliament, and led indirectly to the fall of the second Balkenende cabinet.

She is currently a fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, a think tank linked to neoconservatism, working from an unknown location in the Netherlands.[2][3] In 2005, she was named by Time magazine as one of the 100 most influential people in the world.[4] She has also received several awards for her work, including Norway's Human Rights Service's Bellwether of the Year Award, the Danish Freedom Prize, the Swedish Democracy Prize, and the Moral Courage Award for commitment to conflict resolution, ethics, and world citizenship.[5]

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali

Yes Amir but

I can't speak about the campaign against Hirsi Ali, I don't know enough about it. If people on the thread say she's working for the Neocons why would they make it up? If you can't discredit that, then the question would be did her politicalt shift cause this "campaign" against her, or vice verse? I can't address that.  You can.

Back to my main point (sorry if it's not yours...), the avoidance of women's rights among other rights is on both sides Right here among the "soft Left" it is becoming taboo.  And that is when the Left is not right, but Right. 

Hijab is okay for now, we will wait. Yes, as peace activists we can do the ARITHMETIC as a strategy to avoid war, but in the general CONVERSATION we're not telling the truth--not loudly enough.And that is the source of a LOT of the problems with the discussions on this website...endless...you're a mullah...no I'm not, why do you call me that? Peace! Peace!... because you don't speak about human rights, womjen's rights,...Peace! Peace! What idid you say?, Why do you call me a mullah?...

endless...and in the end the polarizaton caused will just fuel wars anyway...

choghok

Just how many American papers showed the same pictures? The answer is 0. So who is the coward here?

I saw those cartoons on CNN and Fox news every day for two weeks. What are you talking about? If anything, the US news media didn't cover the story enough be cause they just didn't get it. They didn't get the fact that the Euros could be (publicly) cowed by Muslim "outrage" so easily, while privately no doubt being infuriated by it.

We still don't get that, here in the back woods of America. We're funny that way. We don't understand teh Europeans at all. We didn't understand what was going on in World War II, and we didn't udnerstand what was going on in the Balkans during the 1990s.  And when the Europeans eventaully decuide to ethnically cleanse Muslims out of Europe because they couldn't find a way to liberally multi-culturally coexist with them, we won't understand taht either. All these things are alien to American culture. It's not our fault. We don't behave in that way, and we never have. Even when we weren't a superpower. We like straight talk and a direct approach.

A reactionary turn in the intellectual world

"I believe the core issues here are not the woman per se, she is just one human. The core issues are the problems of cultural relativism..., wrote Robin."

I agree. But something like a campaign against Hirsi Ali could never have taken place a few years ago. Today the very mention of women's oppression is taboo. This could not have happened yesterday, except on the extreme right. This is a new event. The campaign against Hirsi Ali is nothing but an indication of a reactionary turn in the intellectual world.
Thank you, Robin, for the comment. It is always good to hear the opinion of the other half.

Its the same with all the radicals

I remember back in Brooklyn, I had to examine this
woman in front of her husband (that was bad) but then I discovered she was bald (I thought she was taking chemo and it was not on chart), the woman then explained they do it to be modest. This woman has suffered sexual abuse, partly because of her origin and partly because of male domination. The thing to realize is not to throw baby with bath water, there are extremist in all religions, those guys who think 911 and Katrina happened because of homosexuality are not Moslems. It like Darfur, many people do not realize Sudanese and Darfurians are both Moslem, its one that is black and one that is Arab.

A movie deal is in the works

The other day I ran into Sally Fields in a tanning Salon.  After some small talk, I asked her how come she is so tanned.  She said she is preparing for a new role in a movie about the life of “Hirsi Ali”.  She said the title of the movie is “Not Without My Vagina”.  Cant wait to see it.

I am with you

I am not a fan boy of Islam but what many here tend to forget is to mix criticizing something with attacking it and its followers.

She was herself an fundamentalistic muslim till 9/11. Just what did Islam do to women on 9/11 that made her change her mind about the religion? She has compared Muhammad with Yaser Arafat and Saddam as if she has any deep knowledge of any of these men.

She is just an unstable irrational opportunistic attention seeking person with very limited knowledge about what she talks about, but she is a good speaker and debater. That makes her ideal as neo-con

/Bidar bash ke ma bekhabim

Amir asked me to comment, I will try

First, thnking about some posts on the threads:

-If I were a person living under such repressive circumstances, might I tell a white lie to seek asylum? Why not...?

-If I were a person in Parliament simultaneously propelled by a mission and seduced by the rewards of celebrity in the West, might I be derelict in my duties? Perhaps, but only up to a point

-Would I become a Neocon? No, But if I is not uncommon for people who are confused and torn between conflicting values and cultures to be propelled to an extreme side. Does this make her evil? No it makes her human. I hardly think she planned all this when she first sought asylum. However under such circumstances she certainly cannot be called a brave intellectual;. She is not thinking straight.

In any case none of us, male or female,  has had a cliterodectomy. This is something to keep in mind.

_________________

Now, core issues:

I believe the core issues here are not the woman per se, she is just one human. The core issues are the problems of cultural relativism, and the rift implicity stated by her: between the universal values of the secular Enlightenment,  contradicting the often spurious values of "cultural relativism"; as well as the inherent rift between those values of the secular Enlightenment and the gadgetry of the West, which to those of us on the "new new left" are part of global capitalism gone mad and its Neo-colonialsim.

I don't speak of the few on this website still  on the "old Left". On these issues, they are very clear. I speak of "my camp." On this website iwe seem to be the source of the problem in the conversaton. Our objections to the global system  (and needless to say  to Neoconservativism...)  are valid but will never be understood by others until we stop falling into the trap of muddling ithem with cultural relativism. We don't do it on purpose, but we wind up  rationalizing politcal  systems which are clearly in violation of the great ideals of the secular Enlightenment (the universal rights of man--and woman)- These values are irrefutable in  2008.

Those of us  on the "new New Left" do not see that we are betraying the secular Enlightenment when we scream about peace but whisper about human rights violations. In the Iranian context, how can this NOT be seen by others as saying Shariah is somehow "okay"? How can we explain ourselves in whispers? We are seen as hypocrites and we are becoming that.

This is a long conversation.  Again, I think, dispense with an analysis of Ms. Ali, enough has been said about her on this thread--she is one human, a mixed (up) bag, and analyze focus on the issues which concern all humanit.y  

Robin

Right on the money mani 624

I would have to agree with "mani624". Nowaday, if you want to be famous you just have to critisize Islam and the Prophet "peace be upon him" and the whole nazists and neo cons of the enslaved world will embrace you.

Is her experience

 Islam or her social cultural unfortunate norms, based on superiority of men.

 Are Indians or Japanese Muslims? having men ruling their societies?

 Would her society be totally different if they were Christians? Are the Christians in Africa in a better situation, socially? Are their women equal to men? Do they get raped? Is this exclusive to a Muslim African country?

The problem comes when the socially naive, historically illiterate, and politically weak individuals come to a sudden conclusion about what the "problems" in their society is.

This is very similar to those who might not care about the science or scientific research and just believe in God because it "makes sense", and ultimately it's easier route. That is the problem with her. Her personality is great and her points are all correct, her fight however is wrongly set and won't help her people or society to come in terms with what they are doing wrong. 

Based on her society, if they all turn Buddaist, they would still remain with the same male dominated, socially unjust society, similar to many other Christian African countries. This would be a similar case, to go to poor neighborhoods in the US that are infested with drugs and guns, which leads to crime, and instead of studying criminology, you could just blame the Race, religion or parents while the problem is really none exclusive. Could you make an argument that if the people would turn Muslim or Christian, they would behave better? That would be very naive. So her argument is also very naive.

Although she has evolved since the very beginning coming to the west, but she does need to play it all in her mind and do more research. Jumping to a conclusion is not wise for an 'intellectual'.

Sad state of affairs when we a make Hero out of con-artist

Ms. Ali is an opportunistic narcisist who would do anything to get her way. Including lieing on her Dutch immigration papers and playing the gullible US anti-Islam crowd for huge book sales. She comes from a tribal society in Africa where many pre-Islamic AFRICAN rituals, such as women's circumcision, are now falsly tied to Islam. She has decided to blame all the cultural backwardnes of Africa on Islam. These rituals have nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with Africa. Truth be told for that god foresaken part of the World, if anything, Islam was a huge step forward. I am no fan of Islam, but I hate a con artist no matter which side of the fence she is on.

It doesn't matter if she is

It doesn't matter if she is a friend of fascists or someone who had to lie on her refugee application to get the hell out of hell hole.

Her experience as a muslim resonates with thousands of oppressed muslim women. She is the voice of those women who are brutally beaten, mutilated by acid trowing, killed by stoning, killed in the name of honor and so on.

And she is getting help from the devil himself/herself to expose the plight of these muslim women then more power to her. Deal with it.

The OLD Europe!

It must be the climate of the POST Iraq war, with all the politic fights between the Bush administration and Europeans that must have left all these Iranian-Americans feeling bad and sad for OLD europe. So much that they come with false threats and accusations. So to all neo-con Iranians here bashing on old europe:

1. Hirsi Ali left Holland not because she fled europe but because she had lied when she applied for asyulum to Holland so she lost her Dutch citizenship and her place in the dutch parlament.

2. There was no anti Hirsi Ali compaon by European-socio-commu-liberal (how do you people come with such names even.. They are paradox in themselves) intelectuals, she was shown and praised but almost every TV channel and paper, I did not read any bad comment about her.

3. Many papers a cross Europe showed the Muhammed caricatures to show solidarity with the danish paper, and no country apologised for it. Just how many American papers showed the same pictures? The answer is 0. So who is the coward here?

Personally I do not like Hirsi Ali since she moves from one extreme to another. First she was a fundamentalist muslim that was in favor of killing Rushdie, in favor of Sharia (stoning people to death and cutting hands) then suddenly after 9/11 she becomes a newcon.

/Bidar bash ke ma bekhabim

Good old AEI welcomes all charlatans of the world with open arms

Hirsi Ali: Dutch Muslim politician who admits "I have done more harm then good" in Holland lands job at American Enterprise Institute

Muslim parliamentarian who destroyed credibility of her political party through fraud will use US think tank to promote personal agenda
May 15, 2006

MIM:; Muslim Dutch politician Hirsi Ali is jumping ship after after finding herself at the center of storm that she lied about her background to falsely obtain asylum in Holland, under the very rules she as a parlimentarian advocated.

After exploiting Holland's tolerance and people's goodwill for personal gain, Ayaan Hirsi Ali announced she will be starting a new life with the help of gullible supporters in the United States who are hailing her as the new 'Muslim Messiah', seeminlly oblivious to Ali's own admission that she "has done more harm then good" in Holland ,and the disclosure in the documentary 'Saint Ayaan' that she lied about fleeing an arranged marriage, to obtain asylum in The Netherlands.

The founder of Ali's political party, Hans Wiegel, has stated he is "not sorry to see her go" and accused her of neglecting her duties in parliament. In keeping with her mercenary style, Ali has decided that since she is leaving Holland anyway, she should take advantage of her parliamentary salary and perks to promote her book in the United States,which is based on the her false claim that she came to Holland fleeing an arranged marriage.

Read the rest here: //www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/190...