PRESIDENCY

Craig and Nouraee

Chill out Craig and try to actually follow the discussion before you jump in with a nonsequiter. My mentally challenged conversation partner either doesn't understand simple logical consistency or is actually drunk when he types. Because he has compared both sides of a fight to "Angolan rebels". I wasn't praising any insurgents. He was.

Why don't you pay attention to the words? These people are Iranian and English is their second language, they may stumble on their words. What the hell is your excuse?

Nouraee: Someone who wants to take revenge on unborn grandchildren is mentally ill and disturbed. Do you deny that? That's what you are.

It takes two to tango. Your own comment was also thoroughly off topic. But I have come to understand most preaching by people like you is only done at others with no attempt to follow it yourself.

Anonymous8

Let's see, those who disagree with you are in your words either mentally ill or drunk.

Are you that hungry for attention and acknowledgment that you feel the need to question the sanity or sobriety of anyone who disagrees with you? If you were in traffic court are you going to call the judge a mentally ill drunk as well?

The original subject matter of this thread is obviously too advanced for you, as you are unable to participate in a civilized manner. Rather than addressing a particular point and disagreeing with it based solely upon its own merits, you want to create a new unrelated issue. Specifically, you try and justify and excuse the criminal activities of the IRI by comparing it to what the U.S. or Israel has done, may have done, or thought about doing. It's a pathetically weak position. Everyone else is jumping off the roof of a building, so it's OK.

Either discuss a point on its own merits or simply shut up and let the grown ups talk. You are embarassing yourself.

Israel's mistakes (to Zion)

Zion says: "Yes, Israel has done many mistakes ... Here are a few more if you like it so much".

My friend Zion, I don't know what made you conclude that I "like it so much" for Israel to make mistakes. I don't like Israel to create more disasters like the latest Lebanon war or the one before that in 1982. In particular I don't like Israel and AIPAC cook up a war with Iran and drag U.S into it.
Having said all that I have believed for many years that Iran should recognize Israel. In fact I like to see more people interaction and hopefully trade between the two countries. As Shlomo Ben-Ami & Trita Parsi (*) said A give and take IS needed between Iran and Israel (note the word IS), I could care less that Iran remains "Islamic state" or Israel remains "Jewish state" forever.... let the history decide on that. .
BTW Zion, let me give you a hint, if I loose my hair and my wisdom I'll look just like Shaol Mofaz .... I don't like more Israeli/Iranian mistakes!
*(//iranian.com/main/2008/real-choice)

Anonymous8

the iraqi insurgents are fighting against the US do you get that?

Then why after 5 years does the US have ~4000 dead, and there are more than 100 times that many dead Iraqi civilians?

Are you seriously blind to the fact that you are being an apologist for people who deliberately go out and mass murder innocent civilians by blowing up markets, schools, and virtually every other place where Iraqi men, women and children congregate?People who kidnap and murder community leaders, college professors, working professionals, etc just because they think that is the best way to disrupt Iraqi society?Is that the kind of "resistance" to teh US you would want to see in iran, if the US invades? No? Then why do you condone it when it happens in Iraq?

oh God farhad, why do I bother?

are you sure you are not drunk? here's a big fat fact that you don't seem to understand:

the iraqi insurgents are fighting against the US do you get that?

You say they are fighting for "democracy", but before when I asked how the invasion of Iraq helps democracy you said the US forces are fighting for democracy

Which is it? You have opportunistically made both sides "fight for democracy" against each other.

Now do you see why you make no sense?

Anonymos8, wow, even people

Anonymos8, wow, even people that disagree with me on this site, at least understand my point, I’m not sure why you just don’t get it. Like I said, I don’t know if you’re serious, joking, or messed up upstairs.

 You said: First your post said people who fight insurgents in Iraq (like the US-established Iraqi Army and the US Army itself) are like "Angolan rebels".For the 4th or 5th time, that’s not what I said, I said Iraqi insurgents are like Angolan rebels. Are you OK? I said communism had a universal message, so those Angolan rebels, received assistance from communism groups and governments all around the world,. Democratic forces are and should receive the same kind of support, which does not mean, they want to see their country bombed or invaded, but democracy has a universal message, and democratic forces should assist each other, as they have done in the past and are doing now. I said Iraqi insurgency rebels are a guerilla group, like the Angolan rebels. They use similar warfare tactics, propaganda tools and in many cases, same rhetoric.Let me make this as simple as possible: 1- Iraqi insurgency is similar to Angolan rebels as both of them being guerillas. 2- There are forces in Iraq that are fighting for a better future for Iraq, an Iraq that is democratic, prosperous and in peace with the world. Those forces are from all religious backgrounds and all political groups, even some religious ones. If they succeed, it’s a victory for democracy everywhere, because, in the modern world, democracy and universal human rights principals have become a universal force and idea, just like communism, Nazism, liberalism, conservatism,,,,,, and all others, were and are. Democracy is not a utopian concept anymore, it’s a reality, and it organizes, and inspires people and groups., just like communism did, that doesn’t mean democracy and communism are the same. But the reality that each of them inspires different people, are the same.   Maybe if you can burst the bubble you created around yourself, you can realize what these things mean.   

Anonymos8, I really don’t

Anonymos8, I really don’t think your mind s right. No exaggeration.

I said that I agree with the 500 thousands casualty tole, but not with the untrue argument that U.S soldiers killed 500 thousand Iraqis, what’s so hard about that to understand? What’s wrong is you logic that is derived from years of brainwashing.

You didn’t present any proof, like I said before, the only valuable source that I agree with is Wikipedia, which gives the total number of casualties. And that’s what I’ve been telling you all along. I just can’t understand if you’re serious or joking, because this is a very simple matter to understand.

As far as you’re 2008 vs 1800 argument, what’s wrong about it is that you use the same logic, you think world politics work the same, you think complex geopolitical realities and International relations can be narrowed down by making ridiculous arguments like the ones you’ve been making.

And the traitor argument, yes, those are traitors too, what’s your point? We’re not talking about them, are we? What planet you come from? You don’t even make a single sensible sentence. Listen, IRI is traitor, so is MKO, but MKO is not in power, and their power is insignificant, and their popularity is as low as the IRI itself. Why you guys make such big deal of the MKO? I tell you why, because you wanna victimize the regime. That’s why.

Anonym7

Yes, Israel has done many mistakes in the past and unfortunately is prone to make many more as it seems. But that is what they are, mistakes.
Here are a few more if you like it so much: mentioning the possibility of dividing Jerusalem, or giving back the Golan or empowering Hizbala even more by talking of returning Sha'ba farms. The biggest was bringing Arafat back from the rubbish hole he was in.

Nevertheless Israel will survive all these mistakes, and all the criminal plans against her by fascists, and will prosper.
Take care.

farhad, it's official, you're not serious

First your post said people who fight insurgents in Iraq (like the US-established Iraqi Army and the US Army itself) are like "Angolan rebels"

fighting for their country’s future and to establish democracy in Iraq
Just like Angolan leftist rebels were fighting for the good of the communist movement overall, these people are fighting for the advancement of democracy.

There are two groups fighting against the insurgents in Iraq. 1. Iraqi Army, 2. The US Military both are organized. Neither of them is a guerilla movement. They are both organized Armies.

Then you say, that the insurgents are like Angolan rebels. Here it is:

Furthermore, Iraqi insurgents are just like Angolan rebels as in they are all guerillas. What “organized army” are you talking about? What logic are you using?

Conclusion is that you are not serious and just lying to pass the time. Either that or that you are severely disturbed. I'm not playing this stupid game anymore, you are just a propagandist who uses lies and confusion to distract people.

instead of bickering.....

this is exactly what is wrong with our culture.....
all I read on these postings is people bashing each other just because they disagree.
instead of all this in-fighting lets come together and cut the head of the monster that is AKHOONDISM and get rid of the mullahs once and for all
I think we all agree that it's finally time to free iran from tyranny
Lets be true hamvatans for once!
javid iran

Mammad

Mammad, when I said you are not alone ..., I was supporting your statement. I saw humbleness in your post not arrogance. I also agree with you that the changes must be done by Iranians living in Iran without outside interference.
With respect to priorities we defer. I believe the most important constructive criticism right now is pointing out the neglect of poor in Iran ... (Adame goshneh imAn nadArad)...

I get it farhad, it's just a big joke to you, right?

you just lie lie lie just to see how far you can get away with it? Do you even read my responses?

read carefully

You say That being said, when did I disagree with the 500 thousand causality figure? Show me where I said I don’t think hat number is accurate.

This is what you wrote a few posts down on this very page. THREE SEPERATE TIMES
1. First of all, the U.S did not kill half a million Iraqis.
2. the claim that U.S is killing half million Iraqi is just factually wrong, anyway you look at it.
3. Its one thing to oppose the war, another to make up stuff.
Get your facts rights.

Do you think your readers are that stupid? that they are not even willing to find out for themselves something that can be checked in 5 seconds?

I showed you evidence. You don't even bother trying to substantiate your rediculous statement. You don't even say why you don't accept these numbers which are from major medical journals and UN agencies. And you call me brainwashed? Have you no shame?

It's not "New York Times" or the Guardian as you claimed. It's multiple sources, multiple methods. Your rant about watching different news agencies and reading between the lines does not apply. I didn't even give the maximum number, it's closer to half of what the evidence actually says.

It all shows that US is directly responsible for killing hundreds of thousands of people. Some through sanctions. Some through bombs. And some through neglect. In international law, it's all the same as Mammad explained and you didn't understand.

As for the 1800s, let me help you get out of it: the British Empire, or for that matter, no “empire’ in t hat definition, exists anymore, maybe you didn’t get the memo. And the “white man” vs “non white man” argument, exists in your and Tupac’s brain only.

What the F$#@$@ are you talking about??? Are you retarded? Did I say the British empire is alive today? I was making a comparison that you brought up: 1808 to 2008. America is the superpower now, making the same claims British made in 1808.

The only traitors are the ones who apologize, justify and victimize the IRI,

Wow, what a brilliant statement. So those who actually bomb and kill Iranians (like rajavi-parasts) are not traitors in your optinion? If I help the US kill Iranians, I'm not a traitor? I can't be, according ot you the only traitors are those who apologize for IRI.

As a matter of fact I'm 100% sure I know more than you do in many subjects including Iraq. You've shown yourself to be severely misinformed. What's more, you're such a ditto-head that you close your eyes to all evidence to the contrary and contradict yourself in the same webpage hoping no one would notice!

What a nice fantasy world you must live in.

Mammad, this is respond to

Mammad, this is respond to your second posting addressed to me.

I absolutely agree with you that the U.S is responsible for Iraq security. I never said anything different in my postings. I have also said that I believe the U.S made many mistakes in Iraq, including, the dismantling of Iraqi security forces. But, the question is, just because the U.S dismantled Iraqi forces, that doesn’t legitimize or justify fundamentalist groups massacring innocent people in a religious civil war. That lunatic Anomyos8 was making the argument that U.S soldiers are directly killing Iraqi citizens, and that’s just simply factually untrue. You can call Bush incompetent (I do), you can U.S military commanders in Iraq idiots (I do), you can call the war a strategic mistake (I do), but you cannot call U.S soldiers killers of innocent Iraqis in murder rampages.

As far as your Saddam and Tito argument, surprisingly to you, I agree with you 100%.

But I do disagree with you on the responsibility issue. We Iranians are masters in blaming others for our own mistakes. We are not a nation that historically had a culture of self responsibility rooted in us. So damn sure I put responsibility on our own people, me and you included, for letting a dictator like Shah, or a Satan like Khomeini, rule us for so long. What I do Mammad, is compare Iran to other countries and see what we can do better. I see Indians don’t let 200 years of brutal English occupation stop them from bettering themselves, and I ask, why Iran who was never been under foreign occupation in the last 500-600 years, can’t do the same? And the answer is, our self confidence spirit has been crushed by people like Ghajar Shah, Pahlavi Shah, and Khomeini, not by U.S, or Kermit Roosevelt, or anyone else. We need to do a 180 degrees turn around, and think outside the box.

Undoubtedly, the U.S supported human rights. Post WWII, the U.S was engaged in a great fight for survival of its civilization, against communism. The U.S cannot have presence everywhere at all time, and during a global conflict like that, some dictators take opportunity to take power and start abusing human rights, as their sole tool for survival. U.S had to support anti communist movements, and make no mistakes, the world, including former communist countries, are grateful for that, evidence for that are everywhere; but the U.S is not responsible for what Somoza did in Nicaragua or Pinochet did in Chile; Somoza and Pinochet are responsible for what they did. The U.S supported Somoza, but it did not want him, or told him, to kill his own people (What benefit would’ve that had for the U.S), he did that himself. The U.S, also, supported France, West Germany, England, Japan, Finland, Denmark, Holland, Austria, Switzerland, Australia, New Zealdn,,,and others, in fight against communism, (and they know damn well, that their survival is because of U.S support for them, listen to Chirac sometimes, ), how come they didn’t commit human rights violations? How come Pinochet did that? Did the U.S advise France that in order to support it against communism, it needs to massacre its own people? Does that make any sense? How come Japanese government didn’t kill its own people? It got U.S support against communism, didn’t it?

Mammad, open your mind, for once.

Anonymous7

I agree that I am not the only one who has taken the position that you quote me on. In fact, in my view, any person with any sensibility should see this. I also never claimed that I am the only one. What I was referring to was with regards to my published articles. That is all.

I have always said that I want deep changes in Iran, but these changes must be done by Iranians living in Iran without outside interference - this is an internal matter for Iran and Iranians.

I do not agree with you that one should not criticize the IRI at this time for its political actions, and should restrict the criticism to the economical matters. First of all, the two are not separated. Only a democratic political system can reveal and, therefore, prevent the economic corruption at the grand scale that we see today in Iran. 

Secondly, constructive criticism - within the context of protecting Iran's national interests - is totally justified, because the fact is some of most basic rights of Iranians are being violated on a daily basis in Iran. Establishing a democratic system is in Iran's national interests. Protecting Iran's international rights (subject to Iran not violating its obligations), such as access to nuclear technology, is in Iran's national interests, which is why I have always supported Iran's nuclear rights, because I believe that most of what the West says about Iran's nuclear program is totally nonsense.

That is also why yesterday and today I posted two articles (two versions of the same) on the internet, demonstrating that practically whatever the US warmongers say about Iran's nuclear program is totally wrong.   Fortunately, the two articles have had a very large impact.

But, we can, as I always do, accompany the constructive criticism by saying that we are against outside interference in Iran's internal affairs. The two are not mutually exclusive.

But I also believe that, as you also seem to, that the most important issue at this time is doing whatever one can to prevent military attacks on Iran. Such attacks will not only ruin Iran, but also the entire Middle East and, by extension, the world by causing the collapse of economies everywhere.

Mammad

Mr. Bush loves the truth too (to Kashani)

Kashani_jAn, you love the truth, the writer of this article loves the truth, Mr. Bush loves the truth (//www.publicintegrity.org/WarCard/), and the pigs fly (//images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=pigs+fly&u...)

Anomyos8, its you that is

Anomyos8, its you that is absolutely getting it wrong on the numbers, and on the issue.

 Tu mesle abe khordan eshtebah mikoni va doroogh migi va khali mibandi.  

The links that you posted there showed exactly what I’ve been talking about, which is how brainwashed you are. Its sad. Listen and learn. You don’t understand how the media works, do you? I’ve been following the Iraq conflict since day 1, and you can bet every penny you got that I know more about Iraq, its culture, history, politics, than you do. If you’re trying to get the facts straight in a world today where truth is being lost by corporate media (And by the way, not just U.S corporate media, even the smallest countries in Africa have corporate media these days), you need to get your facts by more than one source, and those sources should be from different ideological backgrounds. You should watch Fox news and listen to what they have to say, as much as you should read the Guardian, or moveon.org, also, what you should do, is to get the other side’s story, in our case, the Iraqis. I told you before, don’t listen to Bush or Obama or George Galloway, or anyone else, listen to what they the IRI or Iraqis have to say. Listening to different sources of news and opinion prevents you from being brainwashed by either side, it helps you get to the truth quicker. You compare facts, figures, and numbers and see if they match. Anonymos8, I feel sorry for how naïve you are, cause you have no idea what you’re talking about. Besides the Wikipedia.org link, which I already had the figures, you expect me to believe everything that Guardian and NY Times have to say? That’s the same thing as if you want me to take whatever FOX or Keyhan say for granted. All of these publications have their agenda; you have to dig the truth by reading between the lines.

That being said, when did I disagree with the 500 thousand causality figure? Show me where I said I don’t think hat number is accurate. I said I disagree with the fact that U.S soldiers are on a killing rampage murdering Iraqis. If you do the math, U. Soldiers should have been killing close to 300 Iraqis a day. Here the fact, no news organization or neutral human rights organization, or government, or eye witnesses, …have made such claim. Along with the U.S army, there are reporters from all different news organizations around the world; don’t you think they would’ve been able to report these mass killings by now? Use your common sense for once! Now, newspapers such as NY Times and Guardian make the claim that U.S intervention made these killings possible, and that’s a different subject.

Also, if you think there is no shite-sunni killing in Iraq, you must have been in a coma since 2003.

Furthermore, the sanctions were U.N sanctions. Most countries voted for it, not just the U.S. I don’t see you mentioning any other country. Also, what role do you think Saddam played in creating animosity between Iraq and the rest of the world, and the misery he created for his own people? Do you think he shares any responsibility at all? All that being said, I don’t agree with these kinds of sanctions anyway. If the U.N needs to impose sanctions, it needs to do it against the government, not the people.

Also, why are you having such hard time understanding a simple argument about comparison between Islamist groups and Angolan rebels? When did I compare the rebels to U.S troops? Are you OK?

As for the 1800s, let me help you get out of it: the British Empire, or for that matter, no “empire’ in t hat definition, exists anymore, maybe you didn’t get the memo. And the “white man” vs “non white man” argument, exists in your and Tupac’s brain only. Here is another memo you didn’t get, in what you would call “white U.S.A”, we have Black mayors, county commissioners, governors, foreign ministers, and soon, a president. That’s how human history has advanced. People have moved on, without forgetting their past, but nonetheless, moved on, to better themselves, before trying to please anyone, or what you would call “selling out”. Actually, let me rephrase what I said, it appears you live in the 1600s, not the 1800s.

The only traitors are the ones who apologize, justify and victimize the IRI, who has betrayed everything my great country stood for, for thousands of years. The one is the traitor who is supporting the regime that caused the death, injury, imprisonment, torture, exile,,, of millions of Iranians so “it could exports its medieval, barbaric, fascist way of life”.

Mammad, I love the movie

Mammad, I love the movie Godfather! That’s now what I got offended by.

I pad on the back of whoever says the truth and understands the issue. If you say the truth, you will get a pad in the back from me too. (That’s if you want it offcourse!)

Its fine if you think I’m a right winger, if you can’t figure out from my postings where I stand politically or on social issues and things of that nature, well, I’m sorry. Or maybe you have a unique definition of right wing. Many left wing loonies bash and trash whoever they disagree with also, in a more radical way than many right wingers do. I don’t bash anyone personally, unless they bash me first, like this Anonymos8 loonie. I, however, make compelling and sometimes fury arguments in response to someone’s posting. That’s not bashing. And as far as me calling you a left wing, its because you said it yourself once. I have a good memory, trust me ! I didn’t call you that, you yourself did. Plus, its not hard to figure out that you are one by reading your postings.

external threats to Iran (to Mammad)

Mammad says: "In most I have said that, if there is no external threat to Iran's national security, then the work of HR advocates and democratic and reformist groups becomes much easier."

Mammad, you are not alone thinking that way. I have talked to many Iranians of different faiths and political orientation whom because of these viscous external threats to Iran put their disagreements with IRI in the background.
Personally right know I limit my criticism of IRI mainly to their neglect of poor and middle class not just based on moral issues but because I believe that neglecting the poor is the best help to those external threats.

Anonymous observer

You asked why I do not practice what I preach, i.e., why I do not use my pen to write and publish in defense of humsn rights.

If I do not respond, you and others think that I have nothing to say. If I do respond and say that, in fact, I do publish such articles, you and others might say he is bragging, as has happened in the past. Some people like to pick on others, no matter what. So, you see where I am coming from?

But, indeed, I do publish such articles regularly, not on this site, but elsewhere. As a matter of fact, I have published 4 articles over the past 4 weeks alone, two yesterday and today. In each I have said that Iran must be criticized for political and social repression, and violation of basic HR of people. In most I have said that, if there is no external threat to Iran's national security, then the work of HR advocates and democratic and reformist groups becomes much easier. That is what I believe, and that is what I advocate.

Therefore, I try, to the best of my ability, to practice what I preach.

Mammad

Farhad Kashani

The flaw in your arguments that you present to anonymous8 are too glaring not to say anything.

According to various international treaties, once a country occupies another country (regardless of whether the occupation is legal or illegal - in Iraq's case it is illegal), the occupying power is responsible for the security and well-being of citizens of the occupied nation.

The factions that you name were under control under Saddam Hussein, just as various factions were under control in former Yugoslavia so long as Tito was alive. This does not mean that Saddam or Tito were good people. It only means that we did not see the type of muder of people, on the scale and the manner we see today. I know you are going to say that Saddam killed many. He did. But those were different - they were internal matters for Iraqis. The present ones have been unleashed as a direct result of the occupation, and are between religious and ethnic groups that have effectively partitioned the country, rather than being between the central government and people.

Colin Powel had told President Bush that, "once you break Iraq, you own it," meaning, once you overthrow Saddam, you are responsible for everything. This is also what international treaties say. So, as much as you and people like you try to pass the responsibility to others, the buck ultimately stops at the US "desk", not anywhere else.  You use the same absurd arguments about the 1953 coup in Iran. You and a bunch of monarchists are the only ones who say that.

And, since WW II the US has never defended human rights in any country. HR is only a tool for the US to pressure others. Why does the US not protest violation of HR of Palestinians by Israel - the occupying power? Why did the US not protest the apartheid regime in South Africa, or military dictatorships in central and south America suring the 60s, 70s, and 80s? In fact, those military officers were trained in School of Americas here in the US. Why did the US support the coup in Chile? But, at the same time, why did the US pick constantly on the Soviet Union?

Have any skewed interpretation of history that you want. that is your right. But, just because you say so does not make it so, especially in the face of overwhelming evidence and documents.

Mammad

farhad, you are FULL OF IT

now that you have been proven wrong on the half a million number, you move right to the next lie! "Mesle abe khordan doroogh migi!"

Here’s how the half million died: It all started with Secular Sunni (baathists) and fundamentalists Sunnis

Did you even study the evidence I linked? half a million children died by US sanctions alone, and in most of the studies it shows that over half of the Iraqis died in the initial invasion: that's bombing and killing by US troops

it's ironic that you accuse me of making stuff up (like the 500M number) when you do it all the time! Who told you the half a million died because of a Shite/Sunni civil war? Where is your proof? Do you enjoy making crap up as you go along?

Iraqi insurgents are just like Angolan rebels as in they are all guerillas. What “organized army” are you talking about?

Khodeto be Kharyat mizani? You were saying how the angolan troops fighting for "communism" is like American troops fighting for freedom ideals. You said that's why it benefits freedom everywhere if US fights in Iraq.

Get out of the 1800s. its 2008, not 1808.
In 1808 the British Empire was colonizing and exploiting most of the third world but saying it is the "white man's burden" to do it to "civilize" and modernize the ignorant natives. In truth this was only an excuse to rob them of their natural resources and ensalve their population.

Not much has changed. Only you're too brainwashed to see it.

The rest of your speech is irrelevant. You speak on no one's behalf about Iran and your desire for other countries to come solve Iran's problem is shameful. It's a centuries old insecurity that many Persian have. You haven't evolved past it. Iranians are capapble of changing things themselves if they see fit. Only traitors want to do this using a foreign army or foreign blockade.

Farhad Kashani

What did I say that was offending? God Father? Why is that offending? Because it reminds you of Vito Corleone?

What I meant was you act like you are the elder of all those whom you find in agreement with your opinion, and pat them on the back. At least to me that smells of a sense of grandiosity. Other people have told you the same. Just doing the same does not prove that you stand tough or firm. When something is wrong, accepting it is a better sign of better thinking than rejecting it.

To me you are an extreme right wing. You may not consider yourself as one, and that is fine. It is your right. But, the fact that you see a leftist/Marxist/(non-existrent) Islamic Marxist in anyone with whom you disagree tells me that you are a right wing, and an extreme one at that. Sorry for being blunt. You have called me an IRI supporter, which is definitely not true, but that is your opinion. So, hear mine too.

Mammad

Anonymous8, I’m gonna

Anonymous8, I’m gonna make this as simple as possible.

Here’s what happened in Iraq: U.S military entered Iraq. Whether it was for democracy, oil, to counter Iran, Halliburton, advancement of Iraq, ..it was a strategic mistake. That intervention was as big as a revolution. After the intervention, different forces abused the power vacuum and started interfering and operating in Iraq. Those forces are fundamentalist shite, fundamentalist Sunni, Baathist, secular, and others. All of the above mentioned forces fought the Americans. Although the U.S intervention was a mistake, U.S forces, except for occasional incidents, did not go out and start a killing campaign against Iraqis.

Here’s how the half million died: It all started with Secular Sunni (baathists) and fundamentalists Sunnis (Al Qaeda and Islamic Emirate of Iraq), accusing Shite population of working with the Americans and Iranians against Iraq. Also, the Sunni Fundamentalists, just like the Shite fundamentalist, have a goal of taking over power in Iraq. As result, Sunni fundamentalist started a killing campaign against Shite population. The shites, mostly the fundamentalists belonging to the Muqtada Sadr group, retaliated by killing Sunnis. That has been going since 2004. That’s why half a million innocent Iraqis are dead.

Furthermore, Iraqi insurgents are just like Angolan rebels as in they are all guerillas. What “organized army” are you talking about? What logic are you using? They are all unorganized, spread out, non-uniformed guerillas. I don’t even think your head is working right. Your confusing issues.

For the 3rd time, open you mind, maybe you get some truth. People that are fighting to make a positive difference in their countries are everywhere. Saudi Arabia and China also have many of their people sacrificing and risking their life to bring democracy to their countries. Again, what on earth are you mumbling about? You’re either too confused to understand the truth, or you’re deliberately changing subjects and making things up as you go along, to stir up confusion.

Also, Uncle Sam, Uncle Europe, Uncle China, Uncle Russia, Uncle U.N, Uncle Africa, uncle Asia, all your uncles, have an obligation and duty to promote human rights around the world, and most of them are doing so. And damn right that U.S has sacrificed like no one else to promote democracy. If it wasn’t for the U.S, you would’ve been either exterminated by the Nazis, sent to education camps by the Communists, or being “martyred” by Islamists. If you understood what democracy meant, you would’ve understood who has promoted for it. Even China is putting pressure on Sudan on the Darfur issue. The world community is one community. The world has changed. Get out of the 1800s. its 2008, not 1808. The world has shranked.10 years ago, people didn’t know where Darfur was, now, people all over the world are organizing to bring peace and stability to Darfur, and hold people responsible for human Rights violations there, accountable. The same is true with Iran. The people in Iran are facing a fascist, mafia, brutal and medieval barbaric regime. They cannot do it without the help of International Community. All Human Rights Organizations, NGOs, U.N agencies, Different political groups, parties and governments around the world, should and are becoming more aware of the fact that Iranians need help. And don’t give me that BS that Iranian regime is Iranian people’s business only. Unfortunately, that’s not the case, I wish it was, but its not. Because the regime is not only destroying Iran, but it has become the single biggest threat to world peace, stability and future of democracy in the world. Iran is not Myanmar that its oppressive policies affects its own people only, Iran has a Universal message of “exporting its revolution” (i.e Islamic Fundamentalism). Its even written in their so called “constitution”, or as I like to call it, oppression document. No Iranian is calling for U.S military intervention or a bombing campaign, and people like you know that damn well, but its because of the actions and words of guys like you and NIAC whom do not put any pressure or responsibility on the regime for its war mongering rhetoric and policies, that was is becoming more imminent on Iran.

sadegh

For one, Wikipedia isn't a history book, that you think its interpretation of events is impeachable says a lot...

Don't give me that crap. I'm sure that by now you have gone and verified the info on Sadat on your own by now, which is why you chose to attack my source rather than my claim, this time. If you are going to be abusive, at least have the decency to apologize when you are 100% wrong.

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Anonymous8, you certainly loike to engage in lot of moral relativism, don't you? I'm not going to play that game.

For one, Wikipedia isn't a

For one, Wikipedia isn't a history book, that you think its interpretation of events is impeachable says a lot...second, statements by statesman occur all the time and by no means impart inevitability to the achievement of peace or the realization of the peace process. Try looking a little deeper. And yes on this issue my loyalties are crystal clear. I oppose the illegal occupation and the flagrant contempt for international law by the Israeli state. And Begin was a terrorist - a member of the Irgun and wanted by the British for his atrocities...I don't hypocritically feign impartiality so as to pass myself off as 'holier than thou'...

Ba Arezu-ye Movafaghiat, Sadegh

well said Zion!

Zion says: "Keeping Gaza was a major mistake. A pointless mistake as well."

Yes my friend you guys are very good at at making mistakes, major mistakes and disasters, ... and you like to drag U.S to those too.

Programmer Craig, very enlightening

wow! you really have opened my eyes.

I hold the Islamic Republic of Iran to be largely responsible for the 9/11 attacks. It was teh IRI taht set the precedent of using terror attacks against super-powers. Ir was the IRI and Hezbollah that showed the whole world that tactic worked. It was the IRI and Hezbollah that demonstrated to would be jihadis all over the world that the US would buckle if subjected to repeated acts of terrorism. Al Qaeda learned that from Iran. It's time for everyone to UNLEARN that. Whatever it takes.

Some additions to your wonderful theory, if I may.

Actually wasn't it the American revolution that taught the world you can defeat superpowers, like the British Empire?

Wasn't it the US that showed during it's 10 year insurgency warfare if you bug the big colonizer enough, they will go away, give up and give you your own land? In fact modern guerilla tactics were pioneered by the irregular militias who learned it from Indians. Sounds like Hezbollah had some great teachers.

So when will you start the bombing of Washington DC? The unlearning has to begin somewhere, right?

Actually, wasn't it Kane who first killed his own broter Able, showing that violence works?

You really have open my eyes. You have proven that there are many people not worth conversing with.

Khar/RPR

Dude you lost me some where between "Messed With", "Cowardice" and
"Self Style Libertarian"?! I suggest you visit your own party's site
and find out what you are for or against, That is if you are a true
Libertarian as you proclaimed!

I never said I was a member of the "Libertarian party". I said I was a libertarian.The "Libertarian Party" is 3 old guys who live on a farm in Vermont.They don't speak for me, nor do they define the political philosophy of libertarians. As for who is or is not a "true libertarian" that is a little tricky, because a lot of people call themselves "libertarian" for sketchy reason... like being drug addicts, who like libertarians because we don't favor criminalization of drugs. Is that a libertarian? How about somebody who can't keep his dick in his pants and wants to be able to visit prostitutes as often and as openly as possible, withoutany consequences. Is that a libertarian? Fine, they care about their own rights... great... how much do they care about yours? Or mine?

Your words as if edge around the
Republicans with Neo-Con flavors.

Weren't you just telling me how Ron Paul was a leader in the Republcian party? lol. It depends on the candidate. I loiked Ronald reagan a lot. Even though he was an old school republican, he came very close to my ideals. His foreign policy was very interventionist, which I don't like as a matter of principal, but he did what needed to be done at the time. For your info, I opposed every US intervention between 1989 and 2001 - including the politically correct ones in the Balkans. I did so without taking a stance on whether they were right or wrong, but merely because I felt they were none of America's business.

It seems to me you are more confused
than we are. By the way I do think Iranians (notice the capital I, for
place and person) in Iran and around the world are open to true
Libertarian ideas, more then you can imagine or think or Fox network
leads you to believe.

Of course they are. Oppressed people everywhere in teh world are open to libertarian ideas. The only people who don't care about freedom are the people who have had it for a long time, and take it for granted. Why are you telling me this, though? Liberal ideals can't be bought and sold, they have to be developed over time, within a society. 

But whatever one calls oneself, I hope when
you say words like "they MESSED WITH US", you know that it was 19 guys
from Saudi Arabia that messed with us. Right?

Oh, is that all? So the Hiroshima bombing was just 2 guys who happened to be from the US, then?

So why is this President
spend your tax money, bankrupt the country wasting time in Iraq and now
going into Iran? 

I have thought about that. I opposed the invasion of Iraq, and the only reason I've stayed quiet about it the last few years is because I think we (Americans) have a moral obligation to try to make it right, if we possibly can.

When it comes to Iran, I have a completely different view. I hold the Islamic Republic of Iran to be largely responsible for the 9/11 attacks. It was teh IRI taht set the precedent of using terror attacks against super-powers. Ir was the IRI and Hezbollah that showed the whole world that tactic worked. It was the IRI and Hezbollah that demonstrated to would be jihadis all over the world that the US would buckle if subjected to repeated acts of terrorism. Al Qaeda learned that from Iran. It's time for everyone to UNLEARN that. Whatever it takes.

Prog. Craig

Dude you lost me some where between "Messed With", "Cowardice" and "Self Style Libertarian"?! I suggest you visit your own party's site and find out what you are for or against, That is if you are a true Libertarian as you proclaimed! Your words as if edge around the Republicans with Neo-Con flavors. It seems to me you are more confused than we are. By the way I do think Iranians (notice the capital I, for place and person) in Iran and around the world are open to true Libertarian ideas, more then you can imagine or think or Fox network leads you to believe.

As you wished you shall be left alone, I respect rugged individualism, I truly do!

 Peace!

Craig, you know better than the libertarian platform?

Ok sorry, I made a mistake quoting from the national platform of the libertarian party. You must be the truth authority on this. But whatever one calls oneself, I hope when you say words like "they MESSED WITH US", you know that it was 19 guys from Saudi Arabia that messed with us. Right? So why is this President spend your tax money, bankrupt the country wasting time in Iraq and now going into Iran? Thank about that! //www.ronpaul2008.com/