IRANIANS

sadchicagodad

Despite what your lovely wife is telling you, you certainly have more of a grip on reality than most contributors at IC.

So, please keep sharing your thoughts with us.

KP

ps. hope the aspirins did the trick :)

You disappoint me SCD,

first of all, in all likelihood, I am older than you, certainly not young by any means.

Second, I have not insulted you, called you names, or have done anything to warrant you saying I don't have good manners.

You only asked one question which was about: "How can the government justify the violence?" The answer, (I thought) was obvious and given clearly by me: it's not justifiable. However, that's what governments often do!

I really don't knwo what you're talking about when you say that I'm "evading" or going in circles. What question have I been evading? You accused me of saying I think the violence in Tehran is justified, or I want to "justify" it.

I asked you a simple reference to where you're getting this idea from. And now you have to leave to take medicine. That's what's really disappointing.

Since we both agree on the demographic differences and their respective economic and social projections, I think the problem is that you did not perceive a mindless "ra ra" attitude in my responses.

I am left with no other impression as to conclude that since I didn't give off the semiotics of singular black/white conception of the post-election situation in Iran, you have "justified" to yourself that I am "pro violence" or some such thing. I am also left to conclude that your frequent nonsequitors including your personal life and the discussion about age, and the cheap shot about "why other people lose their temper" is in fact your own attempt to evade the substance.

Khosh bash.

Q

I don't know if I have a grip on reality or not.  My wife calls me a crazy ole koot a few times a week, so maybe I don't.  I do know good manners though.  Perhaps, they're something you might want to look into in the future.   

I find it impossible to have a conversation with you because you continuously talk in circles and evade the simplest of questions... so I won't try anymore.  Sadly, I understand now why so many other contributors lose their temper with you all too often.  I won't resort to name-calling like many of them do because with old age comes patience. You are young, and at times, young people (of every ethnicity) all too frequently forget that they don't always have all the answers. I would like to leave you with one parting bit of advice if I might.  True wisdom in life is only achieved when one realizes that one doesn't know everything about everything.  Now, I'm going to take a couple of asprins...you've given me one hell of a splitting headache. 

Khoda Hafez.

SCD,

I have read some of your previous works and did know about your marriage.

Why do you think this is relevant to bring up here? This is twice now where you are defensive about some personal aspect of your life. I'm not attacking you, or saying you do not have enough respect.

I advised you approach things with empathy, instead of demonization. It's right there in the comment, so again, I'm not sure why you say "I don't know how I could display my respect for your people in any stronger".

If you wish to think that the lynching of blacks 50 years ago in the American South justifies the violence your gpvernment inflicted upon its own people then be my guest.

Do you really believe that's what I said? Honestly before we go on, I need to make sure you have a firm grasp on reality. Please tell me where I said this "justifies" anything. Please do not "evade" the "simple" question.

What was done fifty years ago was wrong in America and what was done 2 months ago in Iran was wrong.

Actually not all was 50 years ago, it is still going on. However where did I said it was "right" ?

Q

You advised me that if I really wanted to give Iranians my support that I should start by treating them as equals and respecting their choices.  Sir, if you had ever taken the time to read any of my blogs you would have been aware that I have been married for thirty-two years to a woman from your country.  I don't know how I could display my respect for your people in any stronger way than to have spent my entire adult life waking up every morning beside an Iranian.  I do not need you to lecture me on how to treat Iranians with respect or equality.  I asked you simple questions and you consistantly evaded any direct answers.  If you wish to think that the lynching of blacks 50 years ago in the American South justifies the violence your gpvernment inflicted upon its own people then be my guest.  What was done fifty years ago was wrong in America and what was done 2 months ago in Iran was wrong.  You can make excuses all you like, but you really ought to learn you American history better if you think it justifies the mass killing of people who simply want freedom in their country.  By the way if you hate this country so much, why do you stay?   Shame on you, young man.  Shame.

Sad Chicago Dad,

Great!

I am aware that there are huge socio-economic differences in the various classes which make up the population.

Good, so, on this you agree with me.

I am also aware that violence is used in other countries to break up riots from time to time, but such force is used in response to force.

Yes, "force" and "response" as defined by one side, namely the authrity accepts as force (such as blocking street, or setting trashcans on fire, or breaking windows) has always been problematic. It has been abused numerous times in the West and it was abused by Iran in the recent riots.

I take issue with the notion that because violence has been used by the police in Western countries to break up violent riots

Yes, it has. Many times.

that the authorities in Iran can rightly claim that it is permissible for their security forces to use extreme violence against peaceful demonstrators.

No, they can't "rightly" claim this and I never said so. They are responsible for their own circumstances.

Furthermore, in almost 60 years of living in America, I have never heard of the police raping men and women because of their political leanings.

I have heard of prison guards, raping, abusing and killing inmates. I have heard of Police killing black people and assisting in lynchings. I have heard of FBI violating the law and carrying out extrajudicial assassinations, and illegal methods against "enemies of this country". If you haven't heard of these things, I can recommend some good literature that you can read and then be fully informed.

Rape is about power. It happens in many places where one set of people without adequate oversight have been place in control of the bodies of another. It is illegal in both Iran and the United states, but it gets abused in both palces.

and simply saying that because Western countries have done this or that in the past isn't going to heal those fractures.

The fact is that Western countries have done it. I did not excuse what is happening and consider it illegal and shameful. I hope the perpetrators will be brought to justice.

SCD, I believe your heart is in a good place and you want to help people, so I will give you some frank advice. For perfectly good and valid historical reasons, Millions of Iranians, including a vast majority of the Green movement are highly suspicious of "Western" generated attempts to "fix" or "cure" their society. This has been the main reason the democracy movement was all but completely muted during the Bush Administration. If you really want to give Iranians your support, start by treating them as equals and respect their choices. Empathize with them on a level of what you have in common, not how much of a extra-human monsters some of them are. Constant finger wagging -- and then denial of universal social power plays -- gives the impression that there is something less than human about the Iranian society which does not or could not occur anywhere else, therefore, the solution to it is outside the control of Iranians.

There are many tragedies that have occurred in the recent months. But Iranians have had a violent bloody past. This is nothing that they can't handle on their own.

Vilemose

Robot Made in Gom? LOL

Ka ching brother! you have indeed nailed it LOOOOOL. good one.

Most Ludicrous

Thing to do is compare the magnitude of violence in many western countries, specially in the recent past, to what transpired in Iran two months ago.

It would be useful to cite just how many of those westerners were actually arrested under false and bigotted and bloated charges, and if there were put on sham trials as those iranian demonstrators. Was Jail-rape and death, as a result of brutal and violent torture tactics part of the punishment of those who protested in Seatle or against the war in vietnam?

People should be ashamed for whitewashing and sweeping aside and shamelessly denying true and most evident violence.

SCD: Stating that most

SCD: Stating that most Iranians "revere" this abomination of government tamtamounts to indirectly reducing all Iranians as savage, violent, corrupt, immoral, wicked, callous, uneducated, Jihadist, and inhumane brutes. It also requires  that Iranian people share and approve of sadistic conduct of their ruling leadership.

And you having travelled to Iran, know for certain that Iranians are not a different species of human beings just because they are muslims. They are not some depraved blind entities who cannot distinguish what's right and what' wrong.

Thank you for recognizing  that Iranians are not evil like their leaders. We have been demonized enough all these years. It's time to move forward and speak the truth.

Q: Don't wast your time responding because you sound like a robot made in Quom.

Q

Thanks for the reply.  While I'm no expert on your country, I have been fortunate to have visited nine times in the past thirty-two years.  I've seen with my own eyes the differences between the north and south sides of Tehran.  Personally, I have always felt far more at ease in the north.  I have also had the chance to spend time in Esfahan and Shiraz not to mention the smaller mainly Arab cities of Khorramshar, Ahwaz and Abadan.  I am aware that there are huge socio-economic differences in the various classes which make up the population. 

I am also aware that violence is used in other countries to break up riots from time to time, but such force is used in response to force.  I take issue with the notion that because violence has been used by the police in Western countries to break up violent riots that the authorities in Iran can rightly claim that it is permissible for their security forces to use extreme violence against peaceful demonstrators.  Furthermore, in almost 60 years of living in America, I have never heard of the police raping men and women because of their political leanings.  Iranian society is fractured at many levels (political, religious, economic, etc...) right now, and simply saying that because Western countries have done this or that in the past isn't going to heal those fractures. 

Chicago Dad

As I said there is huge demographic differences inside Iran as well. I said "Ahamdinejad" has a serious following in some sectors. He has been faced with serious discontent and opposition in other sectors. Those sectors that like him do not include the rich neighborhoods of North Tehran where almost all the demonstrations and violence occurred. If you have never been to Iran, you should understand that there are significant demographic differences inside Iran, especially between north and south Tehran as well.

"Violence against peaceful demonstrators" has happened in every western countr in the recent past. Be it justified or not, the deployment of police to scatter demonstrations be it Seattle, Republican Convention, Anti-Vietnam protests and others is certainly repressive but has nothing to do with "government of God."

I happen to be actively against Ahmadinejad and his movement, have been for years before it was fashionable to do this kind of in-system resistance. But pretendling like he doesn't have any popular support in Iran is just stupid. The solution is to engage his followers and deconstruct his propaganda. Incidentally, that's what the Green movement was doing and it was successfull ot a large extent in converting many of his traditional constituencies. But much more work needs to be done.

Iranian have always been callous

The lady author is obviously not well versed on the inglourious history of her homeland. History of Iran is written in callousy and betrayal. 

Callous

The worse thing that has happened these thirty years is that Iranians have become callous..........

Sabety- Thank you for your writing.

Your piece has aroused emotions. Human beings, Iranian or otherwise don't like seeing the truth about themselves. We, very much I, like to be in denial of all the things which we dislike. Yes, we are callous, and we have become even more callous over the last thirty years. We are insensitive towards others and driven purely for our own individual needs. Even our acts of charity and doing good have hidden agendas. We love being identified with ideas and objects. Whether it is the Green of 'where is my vote' as a fashion accessory,  or 'I love Gucci, I love Prada' or 'I like Camus, you like Shakespeare'. It is our labelling. We feel it says something about us. Makes us feel grand. One may say; speak for yourself- response is; I am.

We Iranians, think that we are God's gift to the earth and the best of everything, the perfect Aryans, the perfect people with the perfect language, history, culture, art, women, men, I can go on. We are such ridiculously proud people.

Yes, we are callous. I read the comments posted regarding your article; the abuse, the tone of the language directed to you personally further demonstrate the degree of insensitiveness, the callousness we have grown into.

bijan daneshmand

Q

Nothwithstanding differences in demographics, which certainly exist, how do you explain the government's need to resort to such violent and brutal methods against peaceful protesters if, as your comment seems to indicate, the government is so revered by most Iranians in Iran? 

I am no expert on the subject and don't pretend to be one, but it sure appears to me that there is a significant portion of the population in your country that is totally dissatisfied with the government of God.  It wasn't the rich kids in Glendale, Westwood and Beverly Hills that took to the streets of Tehran, Esfahan, Shiraz and other cities by the hundreds of thousands or perhaps millions before the government unleashed its rein of terror against them. 

While your explanation of the differences in demographics was edifying, it doesn't explain away the huge numbers of dissatisfied Iranians that tried to make their voices heard following the selection...oops I mean...election in June.  Perhaps, you could clear this up for me because right now I'm pretty darned confused.

there ARE serious differences in populations

I guess everyone is defensive and wants to "protect" their own demographic. It's only natural.

"Yea, I have 5 appartments in Tehran, and I do not raise my voice publically against the system that ensures I receive my rent money during my summer vacations, but I can pretend I'm an ordinary working class Iranian fighting for a better life."

The fact is this "population" has fundementally different interests socially and economically than those in Iran. That's just a fact. Iran has had a great exodus of upper class and upper middle class population. It is one of the major immigration patterns in the world. Again, this is just a fact. Unless you can afford a plane ride to Los Angeles (let alone down payment for houses and businesses), you can't move there. It necessarily restricts and narrows the class of people who live abroad, particularly US (maybe not so much Turkey or Malaysia.) It necessarily means this not a representative population of Iranians.

At the same time, we have almost the same exact number of Afghans migrating into Iran. These are people of radically different (lower) social and economic classes.

So, not only are the "Western" Iranians not representative of the Iran that they left behind, but Iran itself is now very different.

So, it is very natural that we see each population have different interests and politics.

But now we have this additional dynamic of foreign residents of radically different demographics and environments universalizing their own interests and projecting them onto 70Million Iranians either out of selfish ignorance or outright deception.

Case in point: Mahmoud Ahamdinejad. It is crystal clear to any objective observer that the man has serious following inside of Iran, but very little support among the Diaspora. Why? Could it be that the things he talks about appeal to a class of people who live in Iran but not abroad? We scoff at Potato give-aways and small raises in public sector salaries, but these things could be VERY important to a poor teacher in a Shahresetan. While many US-based Iranians, under the influence of US media environment make foreign policy decisions based on "what will not embarrass me at my weekend BBQ with American neighbors", those living in Iran, don't have such neighbors and instead take badly needed pride in Iran's independence and defiance.

I'm sure similar demographic and class differences inside of Iran can be analyzed similarly as well. But here I thought I just concentrate on the dichotomy I'm most familiar with.

Kill Mouse Traps & The Mrs

While I do not have an emotional investment in the subject matter of Ms. Sabety's article unlike every other individual who has left a comment, I do find the fundamental logic of each of your positions far more persusive than hers.  

As an outsider looking in, I think that the manner in which individual Iranians within the Diaspora react or fail to react , support, refuse to support or pretend to support the political and social rumblings in the "homeland" are far too complex to simply be boiled down to the choice of one either being a pragmatist or a poseur.  In this regard, I strongly agree with you both. 

However, having the benefit of not being emotionally invested in the political situation in Iran (unlike the two of you and my wife), I feel that you both used an overly antagonistic and aggressive tone with Ms. Sabety.  If Iranians who wish for real democracy and freedom in their homeland need anything at this crucial time in their history, it is unity.  People of good faith must be permitted to disagree within a context of concord and harmony, for at the end of the day all of you want the best for your country.  Your logic was certainly sound, but your manner was caustic.  You may have found Ms. Sabety to be condescending, but each of you were no less so. 

Ms. Sabety seems to be every bit as patriotic as the two of you in her love for Iran and its people.  Educated Iranians, in my humble and unsolicited opinion, need to learn the art of challenging one another with civility because then feelings are not injured and allies are not summarily cast aside.  It is sad to see so many people with so much talent and so many noble ideas and opinions cut each other's throats on the pages of iranian.com daily, but it happens as you both well know.  Personally, I think that killing someone with kindness while disagreeing with thier logic are not mutually exclusive objectives in any debate or search for the truth.

Thank you TheMrs

I thought I was alone in disliking the tone of this article (except for Mehdi who comments from an agenda).  So now we can “gang up” on her under our “assumed names”.

The problem with this “satire” is that it mocks the “people”, or some of the people she doesn’t like.  As I said before, she might be the greatest writer, political activist, and community organizer, but what I read here is that she has a problem with some people, and so she condemns them, and calls it satire.  There are reasons why some people do not participate in these political activities, and why they lie about it and pretend they do.  Some of them are sick of people coming after them to participate, so they pretend.  Some of them don’t give a hoot and want to have fun both ways, so they pretend.  Some of them don’t want drastic changes so they stay home.  Didn’t it turn out that the ones that stayed home and didn’t do nothing (bad bad English) in Shah’s time were more correct than anyone else.  They didn’t kill over a million people, they didn’t cause billions of dollars in damages, and they are not bringing us to brink of war with other nations now.  And now we have a new set of people who go in the streets of France and shout death to the Supreme Leader, and they expect everyone else to join them, and nobody to pretend to the contrary.

This article is not the mockery of the Islamic regime in Iran.  It does not criticize the regime for holding our private property hostage.  This article is the mockery on the people she doesn’t like because they have property in Iran and they pretend to be shouting death to the Supreme Leader when they don’t.  According to her own words she is poking fun of the people she knows, and she is condemning the people, however she wants to word it out.  But, we’re not supposed to critic her article because we’ll be accused of having an apartment in Niavaran, having Botox under our skin, and according to another commentator, self-serving hypocrites, not having our real name attached to our opinion, while they themselves, not the author of this article, use an alias but we all suppose to know who this person is really supposed to be; and our talk is cheap while theirs is precious…, and our comment is acid remark, and we are character assassins,…

I’m sorry, I pontificated too much.

I find the tone of your

I find the tone of your article to be condescending. Your fans may disagree. That's ok, you don't wrtite for me. You write for everyone.

I think it’s kind of silly to compare who’s got it worse. Some poor dude in south of France who is unemployed, longing to see his family in Iran and disillusioned in “ghorbat” (or worse). Or, some unemployed 25 year old in South of Tehran, with no prospects.

And that 70 year old who doesn’t want to get photographed, well that’s like 90 % of Iranians out of Iran. So we better learn to deal with it instead of trying to pretend those of us who don’t care about being photographed are some how less of a poseur. Otherwise, you’ll always have the same few 100 people protesting!

Yes, in fact, HELL yes, some people have property to protect in Iran and don’t want to be photographed. And they LOVE botox! So what?

 The street fighting soosool article isn’t a different subject. It also explored who came into the streets for the protests. It also made fun of some of the bizarre behavior some people have. Maybe it had a different angle on poseurs…

 What increased callousness in “our society”? I just don’t see how you can say callousness has increased in “our society”. For 30 years, the older generation, and as you seem to suggest, the less callous generation, didn’t put enough of an effort to build an opposition movement. And today, it is the youth who are the driving force for change. So if you ask me, it is the opposite! I actually see increased determination in Iranian society. Increased unity and more commitment to change. Besides which society are you referring to? Iranians in France? Young Iranians? Iranians in general? The ones living outside of Iran? That’s a heck of a judgment to stamp on a whole group of people!

I think it's callous to call your people, callous. Especially, if the evidence is pointing to the contrary! I mean I don't know the crowd who comes out in France but those I've seen, have been great! Some chic, some pic and others just ordinary.

Sorry but it annoys me when we think we're better than the rest just because they're not as chereeki as we think we are. I think of myself that way too sometimes but I always remind myself to slap me silly!

And no, Botox hasn’t gotten under my skin…yet! But never say never.

Dear Setareh, Flying Solo is right, keep writing please

Dear Setareh, people have too many excuses about why they are callous and don't do much for cause of freedom in Iran. But many times, these are just excuses.

.

.

BRAVA SHIR DOKHTAR

Great great social analysis,please keep it up;looking forward to read from U,SETAREH KHANOOM,eagerly(even if some may not agree with us !!!)

botox bit got under your skin?

I can't engage you in an argument since your tone belongs more to a school yard cat fight than a serious debate! I liked the soosool article too read it two days ago. It is about the street youth of Tehran which is a slightly different subject. what strikes me is the tone of your comment, which seems to so aptly confirm my estimation of increased callousness in our society. I should not be surprised obviously this is a kind of article that would anger people because in fact it is a social critique!
I keep telling myself not to respond to silly and mean criticism that the comments section of iranian.com is so well known for but I fail. alas I am only Human!

Here you go, for those

Here you go, for those interested. Go to //tehranbureau.com/street-fightin-soosool/

If the link doesn't work go to the website and click on the article that is entitled:

Street Fightin’ Soosool

Enjoy!

Shaayad Keh

Thanks for taking the time to write with an explanation.  Daste shoma dard nakone!  I'm still not entirely clear, but I'll warmly accept your gracious compliment.

Khaili mamnoon,

CD

Sadchicagodad

Dear sadchicagodad, 

Take my comments please as a compliment to you for your logical view of the subject. It helped me put the emotions transferred to me by Mrs. Sabety's article in perspective.

I mentioned what you wrote would have sounded differently to me if it was coming from an Iranian writer. It is a feeling I am having a hard time explaining but I will try:

Have you noticed African Americans call each other "niger" and it is perfectly fine within their conversation but if a non African American says it, it will be disrespect to the race. But in your case, it is not about race and it is about logic which was more believable as if it would have come from an Iranian writer.(Refer you back to the poseurs and revolutionaries article)

I do not know if I am confusing you or not but my comment was meant simply as a thank you to you and you should take it that way.

Thanks again and if I am still not clear, please let me know and we will find another way for me to explain myself.

Peace, 

 Shaayad Keh

How about Poseurs AND Revolutionaries

I appreciate the sentiments of the article. Wouldn't it be nice if everyone was just like me? How great it would be if everyone was willing to risk everything and come out to the streets. Or wouldn't it be great if everyone was as genuine as moi?

“They do not realize that you can live in Nice, France and be poor and unhappy”, “They don’t realize that some of us never recuperated from the damage inflicted upon us by the ’79 Revolution”  My poor bleeding heart!   

Only few people participate in hard core Political activisms. Social activists don’t come in the millions! Cut Iranians some slack! What do you expect of a 70 year old, to get a bat and fight with the basij?

People have lives to live. 100 ta gereftari. That goes for Iranians inside and outside of Iran.

It’s also a reality we have to face. Many people have ties to Iran and they don’t want to risk getting hurt (financially or physically). Perhaps it’s time we accept that and work on ways to include everyone in the fight! Not everyone is a revolutionary. Some exaggerate or pose. Some are accidentally caught in the middle of a protest but claim they went out every day. And yes, some have botox and walk silently in the marches, just to see and be seen. C'est la vie.

I recommend tehranbureau.com's article about northern soosool versus southern soosool. More realistic.

"I am satirizing people who act one way and pretend to be something else" I don't know...maybe the satire missed me. Isn't all life a stage? Aren't we all pretending? It's a good opinion peiece because I've heard the same opinion from others, even myself. But when i think about it, it's kind of a silly thing.

Shaayah Keh

I'm not sure how I am supposed to take your seemingly kind words regarding my contribution to the discussion.  If I understand you correctly, you said that if a fellow Iranian wrote what I did, you would have not paid the comments any attention.  I have tried all day to figure out what you meant by that, and in all honesty, the only thing I could come up with is that you, perhaps, think that non-Iranians are intellectually challenged to such a degree that whenever one of them (me in this case) says anything half intelligible, it merits a level of praise that you would withhold from one of your hamvatans because of the sheer simplicity of the proffered comments.  If I have misjudged your intended meaning, please feel free to respond. 

With kind regards,

CD

Ooo! This is satire!

I'm sooorrry.  I thought this was serious.  Go ahead, continue mocking the people. 

dear whoever you are with the mouse pic

I am writing an opinion piece not issuing a fatwa! your anger amuses me! I am satirizing people who act one way and pretend to be something else. If you can't tell the difference between social critique and condemnation then you should learn it. Why do you take it so personally is the question I am asking and you should perhaps ask yourself. Sometimes one needs anther's words to wake one up to one's own reality and that sometimes provokes anger like the one you are showing.
Please relax I don't want my words to actually give anyone a heart attack!

Which commentator has an appartment in Niavaran?

I'd like to know.

And if your intention was to CONDEMN ONLY those certain people who have appartments in Niavaran, you didn't do a good job at it.  You condemned almost everyone, except yourself.