IDEAS

What is “criticism”? If

What is “criticism”? If you’re “criticizing” someone for something that they do but you don’t and do not believe in, that’s “preaching”???

I guess we have different definitions of these concepts.

Like you said, “It is futile to continue”.

It is Futile to Continue

Changing the subject from self criticism to National Pride (that is Universal) is NOT disagreement. 

Giving moral advice in a self righteous way is NOT self expression, it is preaching.

Excluding yourself from self criticism with explanation is justification.

These are all fallacious arguments.  i.e. excluding yourself from "WE" is like what infamous Bill Clinton did in the definition of "is"

I am not interested. 

Peace,

I have to disagree with you

I have to disagree with you on this. Traditionally, and yes, recently that has been changing, especially among younger Iranians, we are a people that consider Iran to be a perfect example and a perfect civilization. Flawless and represents everything that is pure. Lets make sure we understand that I’m talking about the average Iranian (most of us), not all. Lot of it has to do with the ultra chauvinistic Aryan supremacy culture perpetuated during the Pahlavi era, and even now, Iranians use it as a counter tool against IRI cultural attacks on Iranian heritage. So it hasn’t really changed.

And I guess its OK to self criticize and exclude yourself as long as, generally speaking, you can show an attitude of self criticism about yourself also. Admitting when you’re wrong and not thinking your above everyone will make you look not like a hypocrite. I also think we should distinguish between expression of one self and preaching.

Regards.

I say we are preachers!

If self criticism is a sin, all Iranians are collectively sinners!  Anywhere you look, all media, even small talks within our borders and without is self criticism.  Hardly any other nationality criticizes its own people, government, family and friends MORE than Iranians do.

The trick is embeded in self criticism!  I mean when someone says "WE" in criticism, he/she has automatically, but politely, excluded himself/herself!

What follows then, is simply preaching!  And remember, a preacher is never wrong!

Peace,

I’m glad we have an

I’m glad we have an understanding, and it appears we are on the same page on what we believe a mature and civilized conversation should look like.

It’s refreshing to see more and more Iranians adopting this attitude. Certainly, bullyness is not unique to Iran, but we certainly have them more than we should! Like yourself, I have spent all my life, interacting with, researching and understanding different cultures around the world. The best way to determine where you stand is to compare yourself to others. Learn from their mistakes and their achievements. I think, as a country, we need to do much much more of that. We Iranians have this attitude that self criticizing is an unforgivable sin! Hopefully this changes.

Regards.

Finally, we have something in common

Taking this last comment of yours on its face value, and disregarding our trading insults, I certainly appreciate your saying "I hate when someone attacks me instead of my argument" because I share exactly the same attitude.

I have come a long way digging deep into our culture as well as the prevailing Western culture.  There is a fine line between gaurding against personal attack and provoking the opposing party to easily resort to it.

I hope we can both fine tune our intellectual discourse towards this fine line leaving room for a common ground.  While I hate preaching others, I have always tried to understand the opposing view, AND I have never ever initiated an offensive remark directed at a "specific individual" in an intellectual discourse, but I do not hesitate to fight back.  I am working on expanding it to beyond "specific Individual" which is really hard!  Meantime, it is unfortunate to be drawn into trading insults in exchange of ideas.

Nonetheless, I don't think people who bully other people are unique to our country.  I have seen enough of them from a number of different nationalities to safely say they are all over the places.

Peace,

Sir,  Even a monkey with

Sir,

 Even a monkey with a keyboard can sit down and type offensive words. I stated before that is not my style. So although you used offensive words in your last posting (mindless belligerent), I don’t wanna become that monkey and will let this one go (not trying to say you are like that monkey!), since you clarified the misunderstanding, and I’m just going to pretend this was a “misunderstanding”.  As you can tell, and I’m sure you’re like also, I hate when someone attacks me instead of my argument. Those people, which unfortunately our country has a lot of!, try t o bully people to silence them (honestly I don’t think you are one of them, hopefully I’m not wrong!), and when I join this conversations, I made it a mission for myself not to let these people bully me or others. Hopefully they can learn a lesson and join the civilized world.  Regards.  

Mr. Kashani; I owe you an explanation.

There is confusion in reading my comment.  I said:

“I could not agree more with your comment, but I would say cherry picking is indeed a childish game.  The author simply takes examples and generalizes them to define WESTERN democracy as the TRUE democracy.”

In the 1st sentence, I was referring to Mr. Daryush because while I agreed with his comment in general, I felt he was offensive and overreacting in characterizing your article.  He had already offended you “what you are saying is nothing but a child like argument coming from a ignorant individual who has never lived his life anywhere.” 

 In my 2nd sentence I gave you the benefit of a doubt to have simply generalized some examples.  AND using your opponent’s “technique” is NOT name-calling.  It is simply using the same framework.

Later, in my 2nd comment I offered him my apology because YOU convinced me, his offending you was proper. 

While you were a mindless belligerent offender who simply could NOT engage in a civilized intellectual discourse AND in no way I regret to have offended you back, I MUST admit my comment could have been misread AND I assume you have not interpreted as I intended.  Therefore, I sincerely apologize for MY ambiguity.

Last, but not least, a reasonable person with common sense would surely appreciate the difference in degree for offensive remarks.  Do you?!

Peace,

I’m not even going to go

I’m not even going to go over the name callings you engage in your last post. Let’s just start from the beginning.

 Your first post:” cherry picking is indeed a childish game” , childish=done by a child, in this case = ME!  You also attacked me by saying how “dare I……”, and I’m using “techniques” ……which is fine. but this shows that YOU, not ME, started the name calling.  Like I said sir, look in the mirror first.  

I said I will not waste my time on you!

But here is what I omitted from my previous message to keep it short.  Just remember, I offended you back, and I will NOT hesitate to repeat.

My 1st comment:

Daryush: Where to Begin?by Mohamad Purqurian on Sat Mar 21, 2009 07:41 AM PDT

No name calling, simply disagreement stating I would use your “technique”, because I did NOT see logic in your argument.

Your 1st reply:

Outragous Claimsby Farhad Kashani on Sat Mar 21, 2009 01:37 PM PDT

Your 1st personal attack:

“But because we have people like you in the East, who are so brainwashed by the Islamo Socialist propaganda machine and suffer from “WESTphobia”, we are doomed not to adopt anything from other cultures that will result in the improvements of ourselves and society.”

My response:

Where to Begin? That is the question!by Mohamad Purqurian on Sun Mar 22, 2009 04:52 PM PDTI offered my apology to Daryush, and challenged you politely, sarcastically, and YES offended you back, but NO name calling.  Here is my reply to your above mentioned mindless accusation:“I have to thank Mr. Kashani for giving so much credit to people like me…  I never thought people like me are so powerful and people like Mr. Kashani are too weak to stop us!!”What did you do in response?  Here it is:

by Farhad Kashani on Mon Mar 23, 2009 06:12 AM PDT“Mr. Purqurian, Don’t be like the IRI that does bad things, then plays the victim and blames other for the fire it started.”That was beyond belief!  I don’t say like whom, but you started the fire in the previous message, and you played the victim in the same message.  So you forced me to warn you of your hypocrisy without using the word.  Here it is:Mr. Kashani, please stop fallacious arguments.by Mohamad Purqurian on Mon Mar 23, 2009 01:17 PM PDT“I did not play the victim, you did.  In your comment under "Outrageous Claims", you simply were clueless in respect to FACTS, so..”But you kept going.  I mean with your fallacious argument in cherry picking.  Here it is:                                                                              Mohamed,   I’m notby Farhad Kashani on Tue Mar 24, 2009 02:25 PM PDT“In this country, a black man got elected by the same “whites” you hate so much”  Where did I say I hated Whites? 

That was a malicious lie.  Yes I presented a fact that the overwhelming majority of White Americans supported their elected government in racial profiling.  That is a historical fact, but it takes a mindless belligerent zealot like you to say I hated Whites.And I could make many examples in any country for which a minority was elevated to the high office.  Our own history is full of examples, and even Ahmadinejad is the son of an ironsmith!  Oops, he was NOT elected because in your empty head! Iranian masses are simply too stupid to understand an election.  Only WESTERN MEDIA knows how to educate people for elections!  Every single example you made, there was a rebuttal that was just a waste time arguing with a “religious zealot” like you.  Yes, Atheism is also a religion in essence, but that is beyond your miniature brain.  Nonetheless, I simply wanted to stop this fallacious argument.  The whole point I made was NOT to cherry pick BUT to SHOW you there are opposing PICKS as well.  But you are so pathetic, you keep going and going.

Sir, look in the mirror first!

I haven’t engaged in any name calling , unlike you, but I think it is time for me to call you a “hypocrite”. Because everything that you falsely accused me, including in your first post, calling my “cherry picking” game “childish”, is exactly what you’re doing. You compared my tactics to a “religious zealot”’s ones, and now you’re saying I cant have a conversation in good faith, , and best of them all, “asking me to go to school”!! (Is that how you have conversations in “good faith?), where as I never called you by any names.

So, look in the mirror sir, and try to fix yourself, not others.

Mr. Kashani, I stop wasting my time on you!

I did not read beyond your saying "I am not a religious zealot." because it seems to me you just don't get the point.  I made an analogy to what a religious zealot does in monotheism, then I said:

"Obviously, you talk about universal democratic values, but your cherry picking examples vividly mirror that of a religious zealot.  You keep justifying west’s exceptions to the universal values of democracy, but deny the same to the east.  You conclude West is the symbol of True Democracy."

It is simply pathetic how you are unable to communicate in good faith, but continue (like a religious zealot) to distort what the other side says in order to frustrate!

All my comments are based on historical FACTS, and you are too naive to comprehend what the reality is.  I suggest you go to school and take some related courses.  Mean time you may go ahead and throw in more nonsense.  I will NOT wast time on you anymore.

Peace,

Mr. Purqurian,   What

Mr. Purqurian,

What is this you keep talking about me “avoiding” your question? First of all, that’s not my style. Second, all throughout our discussions, all I’m doing is rebutting your argument against the West and for the Left. I have no clue what question you’re referring to. So please ask your question CLEARLY and DIRECTLY, and I will answer it.

The title is actually mine, but that’s beside the point.

I am not cherry picking, and am not a religious zealot. FYI..I’m am agnostic, borderline Atheist, and becoming more Atheists by the day. But that is also beside the point. What I do is look at the big picture, and focus on the INTENTIONS of government and people and groups in politics, alongside focusing on the outcomes and background of their policies. Many have the tendency to judge a government or someone solely based on the outcome, not the intention. That doesn’t mean you don’t hold people accountable for their mistakes even if they had good intentions, but again, focusing on the intention is crucial. The way you can have a good understanding on what the intentions are, is to look at the broader picture and analyze policies during different times and in different places. So, you would analyze what was USSR intention in 1946 in E Europe, and what was the same in 1980? What does that tell you about the USSR? What was its goal? Same thing with the U.S. You keep rambling about “U.S supporting dictators”, well, the question is why did the U.S have good relations with Somoza or the Shah? Does the U.S “love” dictators? Does the U.S love to see Nicaraguans and Iranians die? So, what was the intention? I’m not saying it was right or wrong, I’m saying what was the intention?

The mistake some make is to look only at the economic aspect of a policy, and tend to ignore the ideological aspect. Left is guilty of that, although left itself is highly ideological itself! That’s why the left failed (offcourse leftists are not giving up!). Because they fail to connect with the core of the matter.  Every government has an ideology. All this talk about politics is all “immediate interest” is not entirely true. Governments acts on their ideology most of the time, however, when they get stranded, or when it’s in their benefit and when they have no other way out, they keep ideology aside. But the rest of time, they act according to their ideology and agenda, whatever that might be.

On more specific issues: this is where you totally get it wrong! Correct me if I’m mistaking, but weren’t those Russian tanks rollin into Eastern Europe and “appointing” governments and crushing rebellions after WWII? Weren’t those Russian tanks rollin into Afghanistan? For what? Did they have U.N approval? NO! Also, it appears that out of 44 U.S presidents, you are reducing U.S foreign policy to Bush, and you come around and accuse “me” of cherry picking! That being said, when Bush went to Afghanistan, he had U.N mandate, and the world supported him. Although I don’t agree with the method he went into Iraq, but as of now, American lives are safeguarding Iraq and American money is rebuilding it. That doesn’t mean that U.S didn’t make any mistakes, and certainly, Bush should be held accountable if that was proven, but your attempt to get the Left off the hook while they were and are responsible for some of the greatest atrocities ever made in human history is a miserable failure.

You are the one who is CLUELESS and LOST and possess obvious bias towards the West. Yes absolutely, West is pioneer in Democracy. That’s not today, that goes back to ancient Greece. True it wasn’t a complete form of democracy, but it started it all. You know what Mohamed, the biggest problem with you and some Iranians is that they are not REALISTIC. They use emotions instead of logic. No matter how much you hate something, you always have to be realistic. Did you know that during the 1907 constitutional revolution in Iran, they brought Belgians to write the new constitution? And that was at the same time that Belgium was colonizing Zaire (DR Congo). Did you know that today, Afghanis are bringing Swedish, and Iraqis are bringing German and Americans to help them build democratic institutions? Now that doesn’t mean that Belgium wasn’t a democracy at that time because it was colonizing Africa, it was a democracy, and colonizing Africa meant that democracies are capable of committing acts like that. At some point, we Iranians need to get real! We need to accept the fact that our country, great though it might be, does not have democratic traditions (it has liberal traditions such as religious freedom, but not democratic) , and there is absolutely nothing wrong with accepting the fact that West is a light years ahead of us in that category, and for our own sake, lets go out and learn thing so we can better ourselves.

And what s this about Khomeini..What logic does it say if Khomeini didn’t actually “invade” a country (in the traditional definition of invading), that somehow makes him less evil than others? IRI is engaged in something far greater destructive, which is the promotion of Islamic Fundamentalism. This ideology is spreading throughout the world like a plague. That is far more destructive than if IRI would’ve simply invaded, let’s say, Oman! And your claim that Saddam killed less Iraqis than Bush is hilarious! Are you kidding me? What about the 8 years war? 2 lunatics Saddam and Khomeini went at it and resulted in the destruction of both countries. Only those two are responsible and no one else. And are you saying that the hundreds of thousand of Iraqis being killed by suicide bombers and death groups, which most of them fight and kill American soldiers also along with Iraqi civilian, is U.S’ fault? So both ways its U.S fault? And those Islamists and death cults are not to be blamed? I mean are you serious? And you might say that U.S is the police, thus, making it responsible. Well, let me tell you, U.S is NOT the police since Iraq has been having its own democratically-elected government since 2004 or 2005 I believe. All that being said, that does not mean that all U.S policies in Iraq have been successful. Definitely dismantling the Iraqi army was a big mistake. But make sure to blame the right party. But in order to that, you need NOT to be biased.

I’m not sure if you’re ready for that yet.

One more note!

By the way, none of my claims were either baseless or outrageous.  Just because you call them so, it does not change the fact that you simply justified what I said or what I quoted from late Harold Pinter.  i.e. in reference to electoral college, you justified it to have happened only twice!  And on the issue of American atrocities in South America, you said everyone has skeletons in their closets as if I denied it.  I never did to begin with. 

I said both Hitler and G.W. Bush were blessed by their respective people for Genocide and Invading Iraq.  Khomeini killed many, but did NOT commit genocide and did NOT invade other countries.  Stalin killed many, but did NOT commit genocide and was NOT blessed by his people.

I said Saddam was less evil than Hitler, and certainly killed less Iraqis than G.W. Bush did.  Don’t try to justify it for war, terrorism, etc.  I am not buying it; even Americans don’t, now.

So the key point to make is George W. Bush invaded a sovereign country by overwhelming American public support (a function of democracy) regardless of how he became the president.  That is also the case with most of Europian countries invading less developed countries. 

You are simply clueless AND you still confuse genocide with brutality.

I tried to ignore your limited knowledge (no offence) on this issue, but I do have to offend you back for your arrogance.  I said people who label other people are at best biased.  Let me say, they are imbeciles at worst.

So, if you want to continue this discussion, be specific, like I was from the very beginning.  Take one item from my comments prove it wrong, allow me a rebuttal, then go to the next one.  I do NOT have any problem with different opinions, but you cannot change historical FACTS.

Peace,

Mr. Kashani, I rest my case!

Well, I can ask “what baseless claims”, but I won’t.  I go back to my one question you keep avoiding.  So I will answer it myself.  But before doing so, I looked at my comments.  I never called you names, i.e. brainwashed, even right fascist!  You never stopped doing it.  IMHO, people who keep labeling other people are at best biased.  Yes, I offend you back, but I do it on a specific issue NOT on abstracts like right, left, Islamists, etc., let alone reducing you to a label.                                                                                                                                                                                             

I totally agree with the universality of democratic values, but allow me to make an analogy.  In monotheism, the three major religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) believe in one GOD, but each one of them has a different perception of HIM arguing forever other ones have distorted (in your terminology redefined) the word of GOD.  In doing so, each one of them keeps insisting on justification for its own exceptions, if you will, but deny the same justification to others.                                                                                                                                                                                             

That is why I said “I think the democracy itself is the sacred religion of our time, and as such has never been truly understood for its pluses and minuses.”  To be fair with you, the title of your article is most likely NOT yours, but Mr. Javid’s.  Yet, the essence of your article is simply what the title is.  Obviously, you talk about universal democratic values, but your cherry picking examples vividly mirror that of a religious zealot.  You keep justifying west’s exceptions to the universal values of democracy, but deny the same to the east.  You conclude West is the symbol of True Democracy.                                                                                                                                                                                             

Just to begin an honest intellectual discourse with you, I reminded you being wrong on FACTS not opinion, i.e. I mentioned Left was born and raised in the heart of Europe, but assumed Soviet Union grandfathered it.  Yet, like a religious zealot you kept making a lot of noise!!!  I repeat, I am interested in the issue but I will NOT side with your biased cherry picking.                                                                                                                                                                                             

FYI (and please do some research before jumping to sophistry) in the course of history, political left and right have actually changed positions on a number of issues.  Soviet Union (as the symbol for the East) and the U.S. (as the symbol for the West) distorted Karl Marx’s idea of communism and Adam Smith’s idea of Capitalism.  While Marx and Smith were simply thinkers, Both Soviet Union and the U.S. took their ideas for imperialism.  Soviet Union’s brand of communism totally failed, and the U.S.’s brand of capitalism is having a tough time at its death bed.  The only difference maybe is the fact that Soviet Union did NOT play with democracy as much as the U.S. did in subjugating other people.                                                                                                                                                                                             

Before you jump to label me as Islamist, Islam is also having a tough time!  Again FYI while I am not a communist, a capitalist, a leftist, or an Islamist, and I do not have any phobia whatsoever; I am a student of reason.  So I will be more than happy to discuss issues with you ONLY if you stick to some basic logic instead of childish cherry picking.                                                                                                                                                                                             

I conclude this by paraphrasing Noami Klein’s article on China.  As we move forward, West becomes more like East, and East becomes more like West.  Much is said in just this little sentence.

Peace,

What on earth are you

What on earth are you talking about?? What game? I’m responding to your baseless claims.

My argument is that Democratic values are Universal, and the ones who oppress their people and hold phony elections (i.e selections) and call it “Eastern Democracy”, and the ones who have Westphobia and refuse to apply any achievements the West made, to better themselves, are playing games. That’s the point of my argument.

Then you started talking about West not being a TRUE democracy and West did this and that, and East and Left didn’t do this and that, which are baseless. Complete falsehood. Everyone has skeletons in their closet, some more and some less, for example, the nation of Tonga doesn’t have a lot! But IRI and Russia have a lot! You get it?

What is this about “making no difference to you”? I rebutted your baseless arguments by you were trying to let the Left off the hook where as they are responsible for some of the biggest travesties the world has ever seen. What does “making no difference to you” have anything to do with this?

Let me ask you this: are you saying that I called you a “leftist” whereas you’re really not? First off, I didn’t. I said you are brainwashed by the left and you speak in their favor (Odds are that makes you a leftist, but we gonna skip that part!), and I’m absolutely right. You wanna deny it, go ahead.

What else? Or are we pass this stage?

So You are NOT!

Fine, you are not logical, but I am not going to play your game.  You can NOT ask a question before finishing up the previous one.

So, I go one at a time:

The title of your article as well as the whole purpose of your argument was eastern democracy VS western democracy.  I challenged you starting my comment with saying it makes no difference to me.  Yet you did not hesitate to attack me for making a distinction claiming it was NOT the purpose of your article.

Is it the purpose of your article to compare Western democracy against the eastern democracy or not?

Whether you answer yes or no, you MUST explain HOW you justify your distortion of my comment related JUST to this part of the argument NOT the whole comment.  We will get to the rest of it one by one later. 

To help you get it, my comment clearly and effectively summerized the point, but you could NOT help distorting it by starting with: "You must be still not getting point."  

Go ahead!

Mohamed,   I’m not

Mohamed,

I’m not sure whether you’re missing the point or you’re deliberately ignoring it, but you cannot occupy your neighbors, during and after that commit genocide against them, and call that “brutality” on your own people! USSR occupied neighboring countries and committed acts of savagery against them while and after their occupation. Same thing China did to Muslims and Tibet.

Let me ask you something sir, does a black man have more freedoms and dignity here in this country or England, or a Tibetan or Muslim in China, TODAY? In this country, a black man got elected by the same “whites” you hate so much, and there are black cabinet members, governors, senators, reps, mayors, professors, …..What rights do Tibetans have under China? Stalin didn’t even show mercy to his own people in Caucasia! He masaccared them. My friend, if you go to Kazakhstan today, a country that was predominantly :Turk”, “Turkmen” or “Mongolian” before the Soviet invasion. Nowadays, a good portion of its population is blonde with blue eyes. How did you think that happened, Russians migrated to Kazakhstan for work? Come on! It was the systematic annihilation of a nation and race that the godfather of leftism engaged in. how about the colonies in Africa where the Europeans occupied (please exclude the U.S, cause it was never an occupying power)? Is Nigeria or Zaire or Congo or Rwanda mostly “blonde with blue eyes” or black? Offcourse no one is supporting colonialism, but that’s over, and everyone moved on, but I guess some leftist Iranians are still stuck in it and for the love of …..Can’t get out! I guess talking about Kazakhstan is not really “customary” among the left propaganda machine and leftist media around the world, beating on the drum of colonialism is still is, however, I guess!!

This brainwashing needs to stop.

As far as black rights in the U.S goes, are you saying that Abraham Lincoln, a popularly elected president, didn’t free the slaves? Was it the courts? And we’re not talking about 2008 here! Also, if you claim that U.S hates “blacks” so much, why did they elect Obama? I mean isn’t the least you can do if you “hate” someone is not to elect them? I mean are you kidding me?

As far as U.S support for certain countries, the explanation is very easy, but I guess that applies to people who are not brainwashed by the left and never try to actually THINK about things and pritty much parrot whatever some clues leftist newspaper says. U.S was in war against communism, an evil ideology and system (I guess to you it’s the “ideal!). U.S supported any country that was fighting communism, and I’m glad they did and the world is glad and the world saw the fruits of this long-term policy. Many of these countries, in fact, most, were democratic, like Western Europe. So it wasn’t a “systematic” policy of the United States to support dictators just for the hell of it or to see others destroyed. The U.S was fighting communism and it could use any help. What the governments did in their own territory is not the fault of the United States. Mr. Mohamed, have you ever tried blaming the actual “dictators” for being a “dictator”??? Have you ever tried blaming the supporters of those dictators, in many countries they are the majority, for the support they give to the dictators? We have a 2500 years history of dictatorships, some of them good, but most bad, unfortunately, in many of us, that culture is rooted. So if Iranians support the Shah and enable him to execute a coup, or support Khomeini and enable him to hijack a revolution, is that U.S fault? We had nothing to do with it?  So why do you use the U.S for a punching bag? How much personal satisfaction do you get by bashing something you resent so much without any regards for facts, figure or logic? How much?

Mr. Kashani, please stop fallacious arguments.

It simply does NOT work. 

I said "I am indifferent to Western, Eastern, Islamist, or any other prefix for democracy."  It means whether there are such classifications or not, will make NO difference to me.

I did not play the victim, you did.  In your comment under "Outrageous Claims", you simply were clueless in respect to FACTS, so you said:

"But because we have people like you in the East, who are so brainwashed by the Islamo Socialist propaganda machine and suffer from “WESTphobia”, we are doomed not to adopt anything from other cultures that will result in the improvements of ourselves and society."

Here is the FACT again.  I DID NOT and DO NOT condone either Stalin's brutal killing of its opposition NOR that of Khomeini's.  All I am saying is neither one of the two committed genocide.  It is NOT intelligent to confuse brutality with genocide. 

Hitler was blessed by German people who elected him and supported his killing Jews.  An overwhelming white Americans kept supporting their ELECTED government in recial profiling against BLACKs.

In fact, most human rights in the U.S. were achieved by court rulings NOT public support as a function of democracy.  This is true in alomst any country, including the Islamic Republic of Iran.  I do not intend to offend you, but you simply need to open up your mind to the reality.

Here is another piece from the same speech by late Harold Pinter, a well known British play writer.  Call him whatever you like, but prove him wrong:

"The United States supported and in many cases engendered every right wing military dictatorship in the world after the end of the Second World War. I refer to Indonesia, Greece, Uruguay, Brazil, Paraguay, Haiti, Turkey, the Philippines, Guatemala, El Salvador, and, of course, Chile. The horror the United States inflicted upon Chile in 1973 can never be purged and can never be forgiven.

Hundreds of thousands of deaths took place throughout these countries. Did they take place? And are they in all cases attributable to US foreign policy? The answer is yes they did take place and they are attributable to American foreign policy. But you wouldn't know it..”

You may keep playing this game, but beware I will offend you back.  As much as I am open to any intelligent discussion, I will NOT leave offensive remarks unanswered. 

Peace,

Mr. Purqurian, Don’t be

Mr. Purqurian, Don’t be like the IRI that does bad things, then plays the victim and blames other for the fire it started. When you demonstrate your lack ob ability of having a civilized exchange of ideas, it is hard for the other party to have a mature conversation with you. I was just simply responding to your attacks.

You must be still not getting point. In reality, there is no such thing as “Eastern Democracy” or “Western Democracy” systems! Yes, there are Western democracies, as in democracies that are in the Western hemisphere, and traditionally saying, belong to the “Western” culture (Although in the globalization era, “national culture” including the Western ones are fading away), and there are democracies in the East, for example Singapore, Japan, S Korea, Taiwan, India and others. There are different levels of how a democracy functions, because factors such as poverty and corruption affect them, but nonetheless, if you apply democratic values in your society, you are a democracy.

 Furthermore, again, your one-sided bias in favor of the left is not helping you rationally view things. The USSR (Stalin in particular) committed mass genocide against non Russians, China has and is committed horrific discriminations against religious and ethnic minorities (most notably Tibet).and the list goes on my friend. And as far as “West’s discrimination” go, just to give you one example, you might wanna look up a survey that just came out awhile back saying Muslims in America are enjoying more freedom and happiness than Muslims in Islamic countries!! If you scroll down News section on this site, I think you gonna find it. that’s just one example.

Sir, you might need to broaden your view and stop looking at things using an ideological lens. Maybe at that point, you will see the truth

Where to Begin? That is the question!

I offer my sincere apology to Daryush for my not appreciating the depth of his disappointment with Farhad.  I thought he was offensive and overreacting, but here is Mr. Kashani proving him the fact that he actually underestimated how the author is out of touch with reality, let alone his lack of basic tools to READ a comment.                                                                                                                                                                                          So I go back to his fundamental question: Where to Begin?                                                                                                                                                                                       Let's see where did I deny anything for him to conclude that I am in a state of denial?  Did I say or imply the West has NOT come far away ahead of us?  Did I say or imply the West did not learn from us?  Did I say or imply that we should NOT learn from the West?  I simply said:                                                                                                                                                                                       "I am indifferent to Western, Eastern, Islamist, or any other prefix for democracy.  I think the democracy itself is the sacred religion of our time, and as such has never been truly understood for its pluses and minuses."                                                                                                                                                                                       Oops, how dare I say such a thing?  I should have known Mr. Kashani wanted us to blindly follow the West because they learned everything from US without questioning the validity of our systems!!!  They took everything as undeniable scientific proof JUST because (at the time) we were ahead of them!!!!                                                                                                                                                                                       It gets even better AND I have to thank Mr. Kashani for giving so much credit to people like me.  He said:                                                                                                                                                                                       "But because we have people like you in the East, who are so brainwashed ... and suffer from “WESTphobia”, we are doomed not to adopt anything from other cultures that will result in the improvements of ourselves and society."                                                                                                                                                                                       Wow!  I never thought people like me are so powerful and people like Mr. Kashani are too weak to stop us!!                                                                                                                                                                                         Wake up Mr. Kashani, even the most fundamentalist Akhond in his tiny little Hojreh has learned a lot from Western cultures as well as others, let alone the progressive LEFT that is the only meaningful reason for human rights to begin with.                                                                                                                                                                                         Well, you get the idea, if not just re-read my comment and your reply!  Meantime remember “not as much as” means LESS, it does NOT mean NONE.  So when I said:                                                                                                                                                                                        “…no Eastern democracy has discriminated against its citizens AS MUCH AS Western democracies have, i.e. the racial profiling, the history of blacks, slave laborers of Latin America in the U.S. or African emigrants in Europe.”                                                                                                                                                                                        I simply wanted to state a FACT against your basic premise of canonizing western democracy and demonizing eastern one.  I am NOT biased, and I just tried to be fair.  However, While Soviet Union was brutal to its opposition killing many innocent people, it did NOT commit genocide, but Hitler did!  So genocide is the byproduct of Western democracy NOT that of Eastern democracy.  Also Japan attacked the U.S. alright, but Japan did NOT drop atomic bomb on innocent American people!  You may see no difference between the two, but “people like me” are “brainwashed” enough to clearly see the difference!                                                                                                                                                                                       I am sorry to disappoint you, but here is the well known British play writer late Harold Pinter talking about this same issue comparing the U.S. with Soviet Union in his speech accepting the 2005 Nobel Prize:                                                                                                                                                                                        “Everyone knows what happened in the Soviet Union and throughout Eastern Europe during the post-war period: the systematic brutality, the widespread atrocities, the ruthless suppression of independent thought. All this has been fully documented and verified.  But my contention here is that the US crimes in the same period have only been superficially recorded, let alone documented, let alone acknowledged, let alone recognised as crimes at all. … the United States' actions throughout the world made it clear that it had concluded it had carte blanche to do what it liked.”                                                                                                                                                                                         Please read his entire speech at: //nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/2005/pinter-lecture-e.html                                                                                                                                                                                        I hope this conclusion is not too much for refreshment, but in recent history Western democracy has killed more innocent people than all other types of governments combined!  The killings have been direct like act of war and genocide or indirect through its puppets, economic sanctions, etc.                                                                                                                                                                                        Peace,                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  

Outragous Claims

Mohamed,

You have made some outrageous claims because apparently you live in a state of denial.

It is no use denying that the West has come far far way ahead of us in adopting Democracy. You can hate them as much as you like, but you can’t tell they’re undemocratic. Back in the days, the same “westerners” came over to our shores and learned things from us (I’m talking middle ages here), brought them back to Europe and as result, advanced. But because we have people like you in the East, who are so brainwashed by the Islamo Socialist propaganda machine and suffer from “WESTphobia”, we are doomed not to adopt anything from other cultures that will result in the improvements of ourselves and society. Well, that’s changing. Trust me.

Throughout the history of Electoral College, there has been only 2 times that the winner didn’t have majority vote. Electoral College has far greater other benefits also. Why do you think American democracy lasted so long? Because they look at every angle before coming up with a system. This system survived for such long time, where as other democracies, even France, and Germany, went through rough times. For example, Hitler and Napoleon and others. By the way, are you saying because Hitler was elected through democratic mechanism, we should abandon democracy? This is what I mean by brainwashed by the left. This is why the left is the enemy of democracy. Outrageous claims and foolish logics.

Also, Truman didn’t drop the bomb because he felt like killing innocent people, in case you didn’t know, Japan attacked the U.S first. Was it excessive force? Possibly. But that’s war, and who started the war: Japan. And what happened after war, U.S spent billions and billions rebuilding Japan and turning into an A class country. By the way, from what I read here, some of you guys hate U.S more than Japanese do, although U.S hasn’t dropped a single bomb on us yet. But, unfortunately, since we have IRI in power, my fear is that would change, since IRI is continuing its war mongering, terrorism promoting policies.

And your claim that left did not commit atrocities is outrageous, simply outrageous; an outrageous effort to re-write a history that is still part of our times! I guess Stalin mass genocide of non Russians and mass killings of its people, and China and Cambodia and N Korea and Cuba mass executions and mass murders and atrocities are NOT in their profile!! Simply outrageous.

Daryush: Where to Begin?

I could not agree more with your comment, but I would say cherry picking is indeed a childish game.  The author simply takes examples and generalizes them to define WESTERN democracy as the TRUE democracy.

I am indifferent to Western, Eastern, Islamist, or any other prefix for democracy.  I think the democracy itself is the sacred religion of our time, and as such has never been truly understood for its pluses and minuses.

Having said that, and before using the author's own technique, the old Soviet Union was not the grandfather of leftist mentality. It was born and raised in the heart of Europe.

Now, let's assume Soviet Union to be the grandfather of Eastern Democracy.  And I am in no way defending genocide or subjugation of other countries under any pretext whatsoever.  But how dare Mr. Kashani ignores the real byproduct of the so called Western Democracy, let alone many different institutions, i.e. electoral college in the U.S. that is designed and functional like the ones in Eastern democracies, if you will.

World War II was a direct byproduct of Western Democracy.  Hitler was ELECTED and was truly supported by his people until he could no longer advance his military expansion invading other countries.  You don't have to go back to Truman who was elected and dropped the first atomic bomb on innocent people.  Just think of George W. Bush who enjoyed the highest public support invading Iraq until September 11 could no longer be sold.

The left and Eastern Democracies simply do NOT have such atrocities in their profiles.  Yes, they have not been successful to advance their relatively better concept of human rights, but maybe, it is so because they were never as cruel and vicious as the Western Propaganda machine has been to this date.

Even, in the domestic side, no Eastern democracy has discriminated against its citizens as much as Western democracies have, i.e. the racial profiling, the history of blacks, slave laborers of Latin America in the U.S. or African emigrants in Europe.  If they used to ship them out of their native lands, now they lure them through human traffickers.  BTW, gender profiling is very much present in Western demcracies as well.

Freeing yourself from the sacred word of DEMOCRACY in a macro view of the whole picture you will find Saddam (who I hate as the one who invaded my beloved country) more benign than either Hitler or George W. Bush no matter how you define democracy! 

Peace,  

I believe there was a 19th Century religious leader...

who redefined Democracy in a very Eloquent way...

The fifteenth Glad-Tidings
Although a republican form of government profiteth all the peoples of the world, yet the majesty of kingship is one of the signs of God. We do not wish that the countries of the world should remain deprived thereof. If the sagacious combine the two forms into one, great will be their reward in the presence of God.

//reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TB/tb-4.html#pg2...

//reference.bahai.org/fa/t/b/TB/tb-4.html#pg2...

37 يا هادی اين مظلوم منقطعاً عن العالم در اطفاء نار ضغينه و بغضاء که در قلوب احزاب مشتعل است سعی و جهد بليغ مبذول داشته بايد هر صاحب عدل و انصافی حقّ جلّ جلاله را شکر نمايد و بر خدمت اين امر اعظم قيام کند که شايد بجای نار نور ظاهر شود و مقام بغضا محبّت لعمر اللّه اينست مقصود اين مظلوم و در اظهار اين امر اعظم و اثبات آن حمل بلايا و بأسآء و ضرّآء نموده‌ايم تو خود گواهی بر آنچه ذکر شد اگر بانصاف تکلّم کنی انّ اللّه يقول الحقّ و يهدی السّبيل و هو المقتدر العزيز الجميل

38 البهآء من لدنّا علی اهل البهآء الّذين ما منعهم ظلم الظّالمين و سطوة المعتدين عن اللّه ربّ العالمين

٢٥

Can't agree more

Cultural relativism is nothing but an excuse in the hand of fascists to do what they want and for the ideological zombies to white wish the former at all times.

Zion

 Peymaneh,   You are

 Peymaneh,  

You are entitled to your opinion, however, the ones who are out of touch with reality in Iran are the ones who think that IRI is NOT the root cause of almost all, and most of the important, problems our country faces. The nature of this regime, and not just its “bad” policies which are sometimes could be based on good intention, is the reason Iran is in this situation. It’s the system, the culture and the ideology it promotes.

  Cheraghbargh,  

I am an agnostic, border line atheist, libertarian myself.  And what I meant by sacrifice was the sacrifices they did to establish human rights principles in their own societies, and in U.S’ case, certainly what it did and doing abroad to promote those values. And as far as what they did, many nations around the world, including our own, is guilty of acts of occupation and power lust and unjustified wars, it’s not just them. At some point, we have to overcome those historical obstacles and move on. Many countries have done that, why cant Iran do it? Because we have Fascists like Khomeini who holds us back by living in history.

  Capt-ayhab,  

Even U.K’s enemies, I guess except Islamo Socialist Iranian loonies like yourself, don’t deny the fact that U.K has a fairly democratic system. Arabs occupied and colonized many nations for centuries, Iranians occupied India and Egypt and elsewhere, Mongols occupied and colonized Iran, Middle East, Europe and elsewhere, Romans did the same, ……everyone has skeletons in their closet, I don’t see you criticize them. Should we call Arabs (your Muslim brothers) “imperialist pigs” too?

Also, not distinguishing between criticizing Iran and criticizing the regime, and bashing anyone who criticizes the regime as “criticizing Iran”, and calling him a “Zionist” and changing the subject immediately to Israeli Arab conflict, which you constantly do, is an act of ultimate stupidity, cluelessness, show of bad will and cold hart and a failed deliberate attempt to twist reality.

 Parsipur,  

Thank you aziz. Thats exactly what I mean.

Where to begin?

Firstly let me start saying that you should not be ashamed to use your real name instead of an Iranian name.

We got countries playing God with people's lives for their riches, what you are saying is nothing but a child like argument coming from a ignorant individual who has never lived his life anywhere.

I know who you are and although Israelis want you to join the "International" community only because it serves them; the world fails to be fair to all nations equally.
How can we proceed with Human Rights when the United States supports governments such as Saudi Arabia that tortures and kills back and forth, or Israel that occupies a land that doesn't belong to them?
How can we talk about Women Rights, when we focus on the lives of Women in Iran, that are more progressive than many in the US (just because someone is fully dressed doesn't show the level of brains or activity!) but forget all Saudi Arabians? Not only forget, but fully support them in their inhumane ways?
How can we talk about similarities, when our lives are played like toys to these oppressors, who not only control many governments around the globe, but stop people's progress for their search for social growth and justice.

I just don't know how to make my points to people such as you. I think that you are so behind in your social and historical homework that it takes months, if not years to let you know what is really happening in the world.

You think it's people's wants to live poor, with dictatorial regimes and have bombs thrown at them? You think that the majority of the people want to live in a harsh environment and were waiting for a massayah such as yours to let them know what Human Rights is? You think that the Palestinians deserve what they got? It's their fault?

How old are you? Why don't you do a bit of research before lecturing. Who is your audience? the Americans in this site? Then you are fine, other than that you got to check your understandings of the world.
OK Enough...
God give me patience...

Fixation on East and West.

Fixation on East and West. You seem fixated on this issue and perhaps confused. Why don't you just make it simple and say it is better to be born in the West. The rest will follow.

A Confused Compass!

In order to hit and hit again at Iran, the author is prepared to go round and round the globe to try to define the difference between the Western, as opposed to the Eastern way of socio-political thinking, and at the end of it all, as the old English expression goes, gets his knickers in the twist!!(no pun intended)

If by Western democracy, the author means the Athenian model that inspired the ideologues of the American Right (the neocons)to emulate it in full until recently, then we should all count our blessings that it failed.

"Democracy for Athens at the expense of subjugating all non Athenians" -the favourite moto of many British imperialists,which was adopted by the United States after the 2nd.World War resulted in having all the oppressive dictatorships in South and Central America, Africa and,of course,the Middle East which all had one thing in common, they were America's close "friends" and were protected by America.

But, let's forget about history, only the other day, Hillary Clinton, the new Secretary of State who wouldn't waste a moment to attack George Bush's bullying and "illegal" foreign policy, said that America's concerns over Human Rights in China should take a back seat now as the US needs Chinese dollars to save it's bacon. That's the depth of Western democracy Mr. Kashani, If you feel fine by living in Athens, don't blame others who live elswhere and give the "up yours" sign to its propagandists.

universal rights

The comments below miss Kashani's MAIN point, which is, once you start diluting the basic idea of democracy, it is no longer "democracy." It is wholly another thing. For example, once you call it "Islamic democracy" with the travesty that we have in Iran, with its predetermined and bogus results, it is no longer a democracy, but rather, a theocracy. And referring to it as a variation of democracy is a travesty in itself.