Misc

To FAIR and Hajminator ...

Hajmninator jan, Moteasefane man barnameye khatte farsi ro nadam va baraye hamin be englisi minevisam… Aziz, in my humble opinion the discussion just got out of hand.  My impression is that FAIR is as concerned about Iranian progress and development as we all are.  He is just treating the subject area critically and tries not to indulge in self-deception as to what our capabilities are.  For that I respect him.  You know and I know and all Iranians know, we Iranians are great at ‘Kor Kori khooni’, but that is a very dangerous thing to do.  God forbid that Iranians feel they have capabilities that they really don’t and then are embolden to REALLY provoke a war (not that Iran ever started a war and I do not believe it will).I must say to FAIR, that although I was a kid when the war broke out and left Iran before the war ended, still I have tried (to my best ability and time) to inform myself as much as I can.  What I DO remember is that Iran had big problems during the war with its air force … mainly because of the embargo and lack of spare parts.  I do remember that after the first few years Iran totally lost air supremacy.  Iranian Tom Cats were not to engage the enemy as they were too valuable and they were used more as ‘Mini-Awacs’ protecting Tehran’s airspace.  There was and has been numerous reports of caniblzing Tom Casts and Phantoms in order to have the rest in air.  This problem was not limited to the airforce, but the rest of the military.  Perhaps ONE (and please note that I say ONE) of the reasons for the human wave was the lack of military equipment.This FAIR jan cannot be regareed as independcy (to any degree) as opposed to what we see today, with newly overhauled Tom Cats, Phantoms and keeping the majority of those old birds up and flying.If Iran could did posses any sort of expertise in the beginning of the war, they would not have turned to Chinese buying J-7s.   It is however clear that now, Iran has attained self sufficiently to certain degree. Now FIAR says that IRAN had that prior to the war.  I somehow cannot totally agree with you FAIR jan on that.  My uncle worked at the BELL factory – according to him it was a pure assembly line … nothing more (was he speaking the truth???   Hhmmm).   My other uncle served two rounds in the front (the second round he volunteered in the army) and two other cousins (both died on the front) were all telling us about the lack of equipment.  There are reports that still today there is a radar in northern Iran (forgot the exact location) which was built and run by the Americans to monitor the Soviets that now is not being used, because ;MOSATASHERAN left Iran and the Iranians don’t know what to do with it (again just a report and I am not vouching for its accuracy …  but …  ‘tat nabashad chizaki, madrom nagooyand chizha!).I think it is a reasonable to argue that the situation is different today.  Iran gave birth to Hizbullah, has armed it and exports arms to 53 different countries.  Now if you want to dispute these reports and question their credibility that is different matter.  But for ordinary people, just like myself, who get the info through various networks and websites, such as Jane’s and Iran military defense and military forum, then we take what we hear at face value.One thing is clear.  IRI is not disclosing accurate information (rightfully so) about Iran’s current military capabilities.  Hajminator jan, I would personally refrain from questioning someone’s patriotism when they more than one occasion express their concern about Iran’s security.  FAIR was involved in a very similar debate not long ago (about Saeghe) and even then he showed the same critical approach and frankly I found his statements quite informative.It  would be loss and a shame if we would alienate someone like FAIR as he clearly does have quite a bit of knowledge.  Whether we agree or not with his assertion or arguments, that is a different manner.In my opinion, in lieu of the daily threats from the Israelis and the Americans, and the memory of lost loved ones from the war, the subject of Iran’s security is very sensitive for us all and we all feel passionately about it.  Not to mention that it also has to do with our national pride.I do urge you all – again – to bury the hatchet and let’s get the talk going on what to do next?Look .. (to you both – FAIR and Hajminator), there are many many youngsters in and outside Iran who are extremely interested in these matters and I am sure they follow any blog that has to do with air planes (boys are boys).  These youngsters can play a big role in Iran’s future … so let’s help them by sharing our knowledge (me personally excluded as I cannot claim I have much to say except what I read here and there).  Show website, magazines, article, good analysis etc.By the way …  I did start a new blog but it never made it to the front page. So why not from now on bury the hatchet and get into WHAT TO DO? What is the strategic plan to get the Iranian defense independent?  What do you guys think is going to happen in the next 5 years? Do you guys think that Iran is ever going to get its hand on SU-30s?   Or S-300?  The airforsce seems to be the Achilles Heel in Iranian defense …  am I right in assuming that? My kindest regards to you both Cameron

Let's celebrate success of Iranians! (to fairy and Hajminator)

Fairy_jAn, I knew that sooner or later Haj was going to write some of his good poetry in response to all this arrogance and yaveh gooi. Although I have been a "complete idiot" (as you properly said!) and got myself more engineering degrees than I needed, I am very bad in Persian poetry and adabiAt. However, I remember a poetry from one of my low class Esfahani hamshahries, and I dedicate it to you Fairy_jAn:

tavAzo' rA ze **re mA beiAmouZ
ke har jA khoob roi deed bar khAst!

Fairy_jAn, get off your high horse and let's drink to success of Iranians even if it is modest.

‫کامران جان یکی نیست به این بگه

آخه مردک تو که میگی «از روی ۴ تا آنتانو که افتاد ۳ تاش ایرانی بود، هواپیما به این سادگی…»، مگر تا بحال آنتانو بهم وصل کردی؟ یا رئیس ناسائی که کار بچه ها رو اینطور میاری پائین؟ ناسلامتی اونهائی که جونشونو از دست دادند، هم میهنهای تو بودند.

‫بعد وقتی بهش نشون میدی دو نفر ایرانی و غیر ایرانی کتاب نوشتند که ایران زمان شاه وابستهء غرب و بخصوص آمریکا بود، و خودش در آخر از این وابستگی دلخوش نبود. میگه که حرف اون دوتا محقق را قبول نداره. آخه تو کی هستی؟ چند تا کتاب نوشتی؟ تو این چند ماه آخیر اصلاً چند تا کتاب خوندی؟

‫اونهائیکه، جونشونو در راه وطنشون دادند و الان در ایران برای پیشرفت مملکت کار میکنند، آرمانهشون از تو سالهای نوری فاصله داره. خویشاوند من، که تو مردک مسخره کردی، زمان شاه آمریکا خلبان شکاری شد و از تمام هم دوره ایهاش مرتبش بالاتر بود. وقتی جنگ شروع شد، با وصف اسرار آمریکائیها که ‫اونجا بمونه ، برگشت ایران که به میهنش خدمت کنه. همون ماهای اول جنگ اونطور که تعریف کردم هواپیماش منهدم شد و هیچ وقت ‫تنها فرزندی که زنش ۷ ماهه حامله بود را‫ندید . بعد تو باز برمیگردی و یک مزخرف دیگه تحویل میدی‫! کارشناسهائی که ایران موندند ، باوصف اینکه خارج میتونند کار و زندگی مرفه تری داشته باش، تو ایران موندند و خدمت میکنند. میخوام ببینم تو که ففط کارت کوچیک کردن کار اینهاست با چه خلبان و متخصصی اونجا آشنائی؟ اصلاً با این طرز فکرت، کسی تو را اونجا تحویل میگیره؟

‫اصلاً تو فارسی بنویس ببینیم چند مرده هلاجی. دو تا جمله فارسی پشت سر هم بذار ببینیم تو چطور فارسی فکر میکنی.

اين ابلهان كه بی‌سبب دشمن منند      بس بوالفضول و يافه‌درای و زنخ زنند
مانند نقش رسمی بیاصل و معنيند        گر چه به نزد عامه و خطی مبينند
چون گور كافران ز درون پر عفونتند          گر چه برون به رنگ و نگاری مزينند
هم ناكسند گر چه همی با كسان روند   هم جولهند گرچه همی بر فلك تنند

a new style of demonizing Iran, fairy tale?

Sure fairy_jan, keep jelezo_belezing, I am an "idiot" but even an "idiot" like me has figured out that people like you no longer demonize Iranians Fox news style or Bush style, because they know it has the opposite effect and it is getting old.
Fairy_jan, keep demonizing Iranians, sugar quote it as much as you want,...., but blame Iran for confrontation (as you did below) and the sugar crystals turn transparent even to an "idiot" like me!
Fairy_jan, I am an "idiot", but even I, have figured out that Americans such as CIA's Robert Baer and Jewish Symour Hersh, ..., and liberal Zionist George Soros are MORE fair to Iran than you, as they recognize and admit huge blunders of AIPAC influenced American policies in the Middle East.

This is the saddest blog I have witnessed here for a long time.

  It is sad, because I see two people both Iranians, both knowledgeable, both taking time to inform themselves about Iranian advancements and both patriotic … yet getting on the wrong foot. Imagine if you both and people like you would actually start a new blog … without any personal attacks and get down to sharing their factual unbiased information with the hope of many others  would start reading it and learn and evoke interest in others. 

As the matter of fact I am going to start one NOW …  dedicated to you both.  I will pose a few questions to kick the whole thing off.

 Let’s start again … Let’s forget all personal attacks … I am creating the blog now and beg of you both to contribute …  post links to articles, websites and come with concrete suggestions, ideas.  Pleases take charge of the new blog and do not allow anyone to politicize it.  Keep the blog purely scientific. I for one would be VERY interested to read and learn.I hope you indulge me in my humble and respectful request.NO matter hard it  is …  let’s show to ourselves and many others that WE CAN put our differences away and work together… even if it is just about a little blog. In the spirit of NoRooz and honoring many brave hardworking Iranian scientists and engineers (both inside and outside) who work for our countries progress, independent and security, let’s have a informative blog here. I hope you both abandon this blog as it has turned into bitter and destructive engagement.Az hardo shoma mamnoon misham va omidvaram ke rooye mano zamin nandazid …  Cameron  

Who do YOU think you are

vaseh mellat takleef roshan meekonee badbakht.

Yes, I have also heard the term haghe tavahosh, but only from other people who heard it from other people. If you dig, you will never find the term "barbarian pay". Are people just supposed to accept because they shouldn't offend you? Well you are nobody to dictate to people what to accept and what not to. SIMPLE QUESTION: GIVE ONE EXAMPLE OF ONE PERSON FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY COMING TO IRAN BEING PAID "BARBARIAN PAY". JUST ONE. I should be getting paid "barbarian pay" for having to deal with you, that's for sure.

And once again, STOP LYING. I NEVER MADE FUN OF SAEGHEH OR OMID OR ANY IRANIAN ACHIEVEMENT. I only ask that people speak truth and not exaggeration. Is that too much for you to handle? TOUGH BUDDY, GET USED TO IT. People are not obliged to listen to any CRAP you write just to please you.

Yes, an AIM-120 will vaporize a Saegheh and any other plane of its class before it will know it was targeted, there is no shame in that. Look at the size of the radome, there is no way in hell you can get a radar in there that is powerful enough to detect the guy who will launch the AIM-120, which is one of the longest range air to air missiles on the planet. Then look at the shape of the plane, it is definitely not stealth, and unless you have ECM capabilities better than the USA, you will not be able to jam the AIM-120 but he sure will jam you (if you even have a decent radar) and you are dead. And then look at the size of the engine bays. You cannot fit something bigger than the J-85 that came with the F-5 in there, so good luck trying to outrun and outmaneuver a Mach4 latest generation missile with a plane that does just over Mach 1. Do you want me to lie and say, "Oh, the mighty Saegheh can destroy 10 American and Israeli fighters hands down"? Is that your definition of patriotism? LYING? Get a clue what you are talking about before your get all worked up you pathetic liar. And then you have the gall to talk about "logic". It seems like your "logic" is just based on a random number generator. Randomly generate assertions and numbers, and when people question it get mad at them. Lovely!

And the definition of independence- you already proposed one, and I agreed with it, with the condition that you COMPARE APPLES TO APPLES. So you either are not able to read or have special selective glasses that show you what you want to see. Just go look. So much for your "SAVAT"

Now to cars. Yes, Iran makes Samand, great. I am happy and proud of that. The NY Times article says nothing about how much sales the car has in Switzerland, just that it was in a show, and it has recently been offered for sale. Can you give numbers? Evidently not. Anyway it is a technology of 1980's, based on the Peugeot 405, which has been obsolete for almost 2 decades. That's fine, it does the job and works. So, in 1978 when Iran made Cadillacs, it made fewer of them and with GM engines, parts, etc., but it was the latest and greatest luxury car of the time. So once again, compare apples to apples. If Iran wanted to build the BMW 8 series could it do it on its own? No. Could it assemble it in a joint venture with BMW? Probably. In 1979, Iran could assemble the Cadillac Seville in a joint venture, and still profitably export it. Had the revolution not happened, the numbers would have grown. Now, in 2009, Iran makes a car contemporary with 1988. If Iran wanted to, could it have made a 57 Chevy on its own in 1979? Probably. Did it choose to do so? No. So once again, if you COMPARE APPLES TO APPLES, the degree of dependence of Iran on foreigners for technology has not changed. What has changed is its strategy, it chooses to go for lower tech products that it can manufacture with less foreign help. That does not change the overall technological dependence of the country on the outside world. Why is this so difficult for you to grasp?

As far as anonym 7, he is a complete idiot and coward who just accuses people wrongly, then when asked to back it up says he has no time. Some patriot. If this is your idea of patriotism, then a country full of such "patriots" would be doomed. Fortunately most Iranians are much smarter people than that and there is hope.

The more you get worked up, the more you ridicule yourself. If you can't answer with facts, shouting won't help you at all.

Bia in baba migueh Iranoonieh

You are Iranian, as koja miaE? Bacheh kojaE? To hageh tavahosho nemidoni chieh? Ta be hal nashnidi ya khodeto baz be khariat mizani?

You made fun of Iranian achievements at the beginning. Starting from its satellite omid and now Saequeh. Either you don’t know how to talk or have an ego which makes it perceive you as disdainful. You said An AIM-120 will vaporize it before its pilot even knew he was a target. In fact if God forbid the time comes, every runway in Iran from which a Saegheh or any plane can take off will be destroyed within the first 30 minutes. How do you know that? You would like that such thing arrives or you’re god and simply know it? You assembled Saequeh, you know its strength. Give facts. Stop nit-picking and copy-pasting bull shits from Zionist sites.

You’re so pitiful when you talk about respect and by the same time write comments as you did to Anonymous 7. In logic that's called Contradiction, as you showed everywhere from the beginning here. In one sentence, I can not seat and see you be in one hand so disrecptful with a patriot like Anonymous 7 and talk about respect in your another comment. Who you think you are? Ahmagueh sareh koocheh? Ya lateh ba SAVAT?

Iran assembled Cadillac’s but never manufactured them as it is doing it right now with Sahand. Apart the chassis, Sahand’s motor is designed and built in Iran. Iran khodro is selling the vehicle in Switzerland right NOW, Too kalat mireh ya nemikhaY befahmi? You want a link. Here an article in New York Times.

//wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/05/iranian...

Just read.

What you’ll say? that Nick Kurczewski is inventing these things or that New York Times is baseless? And that because Mister Fair disagrees.

Hanooz javab nadadi, what's dependence and independence for you?

confrontation, fairy tails, and reality

It is the U.S that has surrounded Iran, and it is the U.S that would have attacked Iran ... had it not been bugged down in Iraq, Afghanistan, and its economic mess ...., and it is the U.S that officially and consistently says military option is not off the table ....., and it is the AIPAC influenced policies that are confrontational NOT Iran.

You are really desperate aren't you

When did I minimize or ridicule the accomplishments of Iranians? How long do you want to keep lying here?

I don't pretend to know anything, the only thing I disrespect is disrepect, like you do whenever you cannot answer me. At least when I post something I try to make sure it is true first. Show me one incorrect piece of information I have posted and I will gladly apologize and retract it. Which is WAY more than I can say for you. The last 4 pages here speak volumes about who is pretending to know how much, and who is short on truth.

READ MY POST. You saw that I took your simple definition of independence, used it as a measure, and measured independence for 2 examples then and now. Can you debate it? NO. So you attack me personally you pathetic liar. And then you have the nerve to talk about respect, or our country being "awake". You can't even back up so many statements you post but never hesitate to attack anybody who calls you on it.

So how many Samands does Iran sell in Switzerland? Maybe you should give a pointer first. The only announcement from Iran is that Iran is SHOWING the Samand in the Geneva auto show. How many are being sold?

Furthermore, if you want the counterexample from the Shah's time, Iran used to build Opels, Buicks, Cadillacs, Renaults, and Peykans which were up to date technology for their time, and they would export them to the region too. So there is your answer on the "something" being cars.

And then you ask "give me a single example that Iranians were proud of their OWN industrial success." Under the shah, Iranians were proud of many of their industrial success
as well- they could claim huge success in their car industry, aviation
industry, petrochemical industry, helicopters and missiles and
electronics, etc. But that is not the point, You are missing the point entirely. I am not talking about who was more proud of what and when, because it completely depends on who you talk to. This discussion is about "are we less dependent on the outside world today than 30 years ago for technology?" I have answered this already, it depends on what technology, and if you are comparing apples to apples, the answer is no.

Furthermore, you say "haghe tavahosh". Who ever came up with this term? Do you realize what this says? In English it means "Barbarian Pay". Can you find ONE contract ANYWHERE that uses this term? Give the readers here ONE REFERENCE to any company or government from another country telling its employee we will pay you"barbarian pay". I know many people that worked in American companies and military contractors, both Iranian and American, back then, and they all unanimously say that they never heard such a term. You are just repeating some crap you heard around and passing it on as truth.

Foreign companies pay their employees EXPATRIATE SALARY to work in foreign countries like Iran or Saudi Arabia or Singapore or France to make up for their being far from home, and the centers of their careers, and their families and communities. It is NOT BARBARIAN PAY. And by the way, do you think Russians and Chinese and Europeans who work in Iran today do not get this? Do you think Russian nuclear and rocket scientists and mathematicians living in Iran are working for charity? Once again, hot air with no basis from you. Why am I not surprised.

Go and beat your chest and make yourself feel better by shouting "we are independent and back then we were dependent on the outside". But that doesn't change the fact that when you go back to Iran, you have to fly on some crappy 30 year old Tupolev airliner that the Russian airlines themselves are getting away from, flown by Russian and Eastern European crews making ridiculous salaries. But back when we were "dependent" and foreigners saw us as "barbarians", you would fly to Tehran on the world's most advanced airliner, the 747SP, flown and maintained and served completely using Iranian air and ground crews, management, and personnel. Then go and yell as loud as you can that we are still more independent.

Just calming down and saying true statements would help you much more. But it is clear as crystal how you choose to "debate".

Haji, get your act together, either learn how to debate or at least try to just say "I don't know" when you don't, instead of attacking people you can't answer.

-FAIR

Le's drink to that (to Hajminator)

Hajminator, in our virtual world let's drink aragh (some good old keshmesh aragh sagi, topped with masso_khyiar) celebrating those successes you mentioned. beh salamatie all those Iranians who did those under all the pressures, sanction, ...,etc!

Dear Cameron

You raise an important point, "where to go from here". I think a good way to find that is to look at our past, that of other countries, what worked, what didn't and why. Iran has tremendous human, natural, and financial resources. Instead of us begging for third rate sources of technology to share with us, we should be making them compete to do business with us (which was the case in the 1970's). I and other Iranians here have a lot of ideas and I for one am happy to help in any way I can. The world has changed tremendously since the 1970s. Back then the notion of a chip in some consumer product was unheard of, and high tech was driven by the military side, and it was easy to control. Today it is the opposite, the civilian and consumer side drive the advancement in high tech, and in fact military and government use off the shelf commercial products wherever they can. That is why the world's first non government commercial spacecraft was able to come together and win the XPrize with only a few million dollars as opposed to the billions spent by NASA up to 1980. And of course, Iranians back home know this very well and take full advantage of it, dameshoon garm.

A counrty like Iran can do a lot, a lot more than what it does today. There are plenty of examples of countries with less potential doing more in these areas, like S. Korea, Brazil, and many others.

But none of this will be possible as long as we have

a)a government which insists on confrontation with big powers, and specifically the US.

b)we as a nation cannot communicate with each other and respect each other and work as a team in the presence of differences. The discussion here is an excellent example of this weakness among Iranians. The notion that "I don't need people who think like you, I can do it myself" is a recipe for failure. Every project in technology of any importance was the result of a large skillfully managed team of diverse people with complimentary expertises. No person and no nation succeeds alone. Just because you are Iranian does not change that.

In other words we need to change our mentality. For me, there is no "Iranians in LA" or "Iranians in Iran". We are all Iranian, treat each other with respect.

And no, this doesn't mean we need a revolution, or to be a puppet US government. There are plenty of countries in the world, weaker than Iran, that have a beneficial relationship with the US and are not their puppets. Even with someone like Khatami, who took a less confrontational stance with the western world, a lot would have been possible eventually.

FAIR

Na Fair_jan you’re not so Fair

You don’t know a clue and have a variable discourse in time. You pretend to know everything from everything and are disrespectful with people who disagree with you. How dare you?

Otherwise, I gave a simple definition of dependence and independence. What have you to say? what’s your definition of these concepts or you just don’t have any?

Iran khodro’s Samands using the natural gas are being sold in Switzerland right now. That’s the something I was talking about. You argue that Iran under the Shah did the same, give me a pointer. I’m really interested where you’ll get it out. Under the shah, foreigners entering Iran received hagueh tavahosh. That’s how they perceived us.

Iran now is able to send satellites into the space. It can and it does, under the Shah give me a single example that Iranians were proud of their OWN industrial success.

These are the additions of something that Iran is able to do by its own now. Iranians know fishing by themselves and don’t need to pay anyone Hagueh tavahosh anymore. They are … give me the term … independent. Say it loud.

Cameroun

I totally agree with you. We have to turn the page.

I’m just making the point because I can’t watch foreign warmongers (not Fair) and some of my compatriots (like Fair) minimizing or ridiculing the achievements of our countrymen and patriots.

From now, I’ll be engaged on each post on iranian.com showing the success of our society and which are fooled by others who just seat on their sofas, drink their sodas safely and make fun of the hours of labours of our scientists.

Sure Fairy tail!

Fairy_jAn, I am a coward, so what?
Keep jelezo_belezing, ..., I am having a cold one celebrating Iran's launch of its first sattelite,..., and other techological copies!

Anonym7 the coward..

..Before you jelezo belez yourself, why don't you stop running away like a chicken and actually stand behind what you accused me of.

Once again, I didn't think so. Typical coward you are indeed.

-FAIR

Fair and Hajminator,

I have been reading your posts with utmost interest and am impressed by the wealth of information and insight that you both possess.Feel a bit guilty as maybe my post about Murgh Ashura project kicked off this heated debate -  although a few months ago we all went through the same thing!If I may, I would like to respectfully point one thing out that I find we all have in common (particularly you two guys by demonstrating such passion).  And that is that we all are both proud of Iranian achievements and worried about the security of Iran.  After all, I am sure that not only Iranians, but the far majority of the people in the world would like to see all these resources to be put in use for peaceful purposes.So then why not take all this insight that you both demonstrate and continue the debate on something a bit more constructive … such as what to do next?  What is the best way to go about to ensure more development leading to real independence.  How about giving ideas …  mentioning scientific journals and websites etc. as I am sure many in Iran are following such discussions (not that they would need any help … but you never know).I say this because I can read that you both and many others genuinely care about Iran and are proud of Iranians in Iran to work so hard and achieve so much. Regards to you both.

jelezo_belez fairy tail!

Fairy_jAn, Iran is among a few countries in the world that utilized some old old technology to launched a satellite, that enriched uranium by some old old seventies technology centrifuges, that copied a 40 year old old plane, ..., and all that old old copies have made many of its enemies jelezo_blelez. However, many of us Iranians are proud of those copyings, now feel free to jelezo belez more fairy_jan.

Read your own post as well

..where you said the situation was similar to Arabia! You were arguing that Iran was completely dependent on the US and when the US left its planes were glued to the ground. You never withdrew that statement, but I made it clear that you were wrong. Yes, in that context, I would and continue to argue that Iran was not a dependent nation like Saudi Arabia was (and still is). We always insisted on mastering what we took in. The technology of those planes, the most advanced fighter planes in the world at the time, HAD been transferred to Iran, contrary to what you argued. And then you brought Pollack and Behrooz in way later, once again, unsuccessfully, since NONE of them are experts in this area.

Iranians were able to rebuild F-5's from a long time ago, during the war they returned many to service that other countries would have just scrapped. This expertise is nothing new, and was there since the 70's (along with the facilities to do it). So yes, in the hypothetical situation if Northrop Grumman and other suppliers supplied us with major components, we could assemble them. But we could have done that 30 years ago as well!

Same goes for natural gas cars. There were natural gas taxis in Iran in large numbers 30 years ago as well, and they were made in Iran.

Now, as far as definition of independence, indeed let us settle on a definition. You say this simple definition: "If you have knowledge to do something and are effectively able to do it, you’re independent". Great. Except the question is what is something? If it is substantially modifying a 40 year old aircraft and doing that modification on 3 examples of that aircraft, then in this regard, Iran is independent today, and also was independent 30 years ago. NO DIFFERENCE. If the "something" is taking delivery of and mastering the world's most advanced fighter aircraft of the time, the answer is Iran is dependent on outsiders, both today and 30 years ago. Once again, NO DIFFERENCE.

END OF STORY. That is all there is to it. How much simpler can it get?

-FAIR

Multiple writers?

You don’t know what you're writing and ask me to read first! That’s amazing. Either you’re multiple writers or you have memory fails.

In Page 2, you also wrote If the US leaves Arabia tomorrow and cuts off technical help, how many sorties would the Saudi Air Force be able to hold up against an enemy? In Iran, despite the purges and executions, it was about 150 a day. Not bad for a "dependent" nation. Suggesting that Iran was independent.

So I was arguing that no Iran wasn’t independent that time by quoting Pollack and Behrooz and you begun to argue the contrary.

If Iranians know to assemble Saeqeh, what make them not to do in the future if they have the spare parts?

If they can build cars which work with natural gas, why can’t they build more? What the heck you’re talking about. They have this knowledge and that is a fact, you want more?

What’s the definition of dependency and independency for you. For me the definition is simple: If you have knowledge to do something and are effectively able to do it, you’re independent and dependent otherwise.

There is a Chinese proverb saying: Don’t give a hungry man a fish, show him how to catch it. As a metaphor, Iran now knows fishing so it’s independent.

Read first

Go to page 2 of this thread when I first started posting. I said that it is a myth to say Iranians were more dependent back then than they are now on foreigners technologically. When did I change the subject ever from this?

You on the other hand have taken this to everywhere you can except the facts at hand.

To accept they were dependent or not back then or now, you first need a consistent definition of dependence. If you definition of independence today is the following:

"Iranians can now replicate Saeqeh, Omid, Samand, in the number of examples that they want"

First of all this is false, because Saegheh is not a replica it is a modification of an existing aircraft. Furthermore, Iran does not build any of these things in the numbers it
wants. It has only modified 3 F-5's in so many years to become
Saegheh. It has modified or assembled no airplane in numbers greater
than 5 , and it cannot produce as many Samands or other cars as it
wants without having agreement from its foreign suppliers.

Now even if your statement were true (which it isn't), Then I would say Iran was just as independent in 1979. Because Iran in 1979 was perfectly capable of replicating a world war II propeller plane and producing it in numbers similar to Saegheh. It chose not to do so because it was a waste of time if you have access to F-14's and Phantoms.

Once again, you claim Behrooz, Pollack said Iran was dependent before 1979. By which definition? By the above? If so they would have to say the same about today. And it is clear by now that none of these two people are experts in this area anyway.

As far as a single example of Iranian assembled aircraft, Iran was assembling aircraft as far back as the 1930's in the first aircraft factory in Iran, Shahbaz. Furthermore, Iran was a full partner of the F-16 program, and its contract provided for F-16 assembly line in Iran. Today that plan has been shited to Turkey, who does this in place of Iran, and even exports major parts of the F-16 for the US.

I am not saying that anybody's achievements are not impressive, on the contrary, just that when you make broad statements like "we were dependent then" and "we are independent now" you need to be consistent and compare apples to apples.

Iranians still can't run an industry alone, and that is fine. Tell me one country that can, including Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, the UK, and the USA. That is the nature of technology. And in the case of South Korea and Taiwan, they all started by assembling foreign planes and cars. Look where they are today.

-FAIR

Oh who’s changing the subject?

You were fiercely defending that Iranians weren’t dependent under the Shah era and now you change on how much aren’t them dependent than before?

Either you accept that they were dependent before or you’re changing the subject. At each time there is something about Iranian technology achievements on this site, you come and minimize their impact. Now suddenly you become the defender of Iranian technology achievements! If you really think this I’m happy for you.

You said If Iran wanted to operate the most advanced fighter aircraft on the planet today, it would still be just as dependent on the US. and when I ask how you know it, you just say The future is a completely separate issue, and we can speculate as much as we want. . That’s just contradictory or pathetic or what ever you want.

When I say that Iran is less dependent to foreigners, it's because Iranians can now replicate Saeqeh, Omid, Samand or what they produce now, in the number of examples that they want. Had they been able to do it under the shah? You know a single example? An air craft built under that time by Iranians themselves?

I said that the Shah was a patriot, the infrastructure was thought by him (his willings). I'm not denying that. But, Iranians weren’t able to run the industry alone. At each time, something broke, all the chain was stopped without foreign intervention.

You want facts about which part? Behrooz, Pollack said that Iran was dependent before 1979. And now, Iran build cars, satellite and air planes by the number it wants. These are facts.

I know some of those

talented Iranian personally first hand, and I can guarantee you, they do not care one bit about what you and I say here. I am very proud of them, no matter how much you lie about it.

But the best way to minimize their efforts and get them ridiculed internationally is to lie about what they actually did. That will gurantee people around the world not give them credit for anything at all.

Now go ahead, keep changing the subject by making this about me and my patriotism and my language skills. You fool only fools by doing so.

-FAIR

So far, YOU are the one lacking evidence.

You have yet to prove ONE shred of evidence that Iran is less technologically dependent on the outside world today than it was in 1979 to do comparable things in aviation.  I am not talking about general political dependence/alliance/strategy.  This is a thread about Saegheh, and the false claim that is an Iranian built aircraft, and using that as evidence that Iran is technologically independent today.

I can also argue today Iran is dependent on Russia and China by that definition. What is the difference?  Claims are easy to make, at least you are good at doing that.

And once again, there you go just throwing out random statements- "Its industry gets really started after the end of the war in early 90ties". Then what about from 1969-1990? Nothing happened then? Again, what is your statement based on? What NEW infrastructure for aviation industry was introduced in 1990's that didn't exist before? What brand new know how was achieved that was contemporary for the time, that wasn't readily available for purchase commerically? Or are you just going to ridicule me again and question my patriotism and language skills? Or say "I read it in a book by some clueless expert of my choice"?

If Behrooz is not a specialist, then his opinion is irrelevant. The discussion here is not generalities, but how independent Iran is today on the outside world for aviation industry vs before. You claim it is, so prove it. I am still waiting.

The future is a completely separate issue, and we can speculate as much as we want. Yes, I also hope major advances happen in the future, that would be great. But we are talking about here and now.

And no, Israel did not copy Phantoms, to build the KfirC2/F-21, but it did mass produce it and exported it to the US and other countries, and it was a very successful program.

And yes, if you attack me personally, expect me to be rude back to you. You deserve every bit of it and more. You could have avoided this by just bringing facts and substantiating your claims instead of insults and personal attacks when you are frustrated.  Do it again and I will not be nice to you again either, guaranteed.

-FAIR

Oh YES

You are on the good track. Talented iranians will continue their achievements without the help of foreigners and your sense of minimizing their efforts.

Oh, you get coarse!

It’s so shocking when you hear coarse people pretending to have evidence. I’ve been told that rudeness comes from badbakhti vo bichareguy. So imagine what you are.

Once again Behrooz, is not a specialist in aeronautic technology but his assertion was made in general. In his book, he says that the Shah was suspicious of Iranian dependency on the US for general orientation, guidance, advice and even instructions.

Iranians were dependent to the US before 1979, now after a decade they were been able to modify an American air craft and make it fly. In out coming years, Iran will be able to build jets by itself? Why not? You are god to know that they won’t?

I think Iran will. Its industry gets really started after the end of the war in early 90ties in two decades, look what Iranians made by their hands. By extrapolation why won’t they be able to go further?

For sure Israel made US-based models. They take phantoms for free and modify US-air planes and sell them back to Americans. Business is business.

Go on stir the air

I back up EVERYTHING

I say with facts. In your world that is empty.

Otherwise you are right, you responding or not either way fails to make your case that we are "independent now", because you fail to bring out any facts to back it up. The more and louder you open your mouth the weaker and less credible you sound. And yes, the more you discredit the real achievements of Iranian scientists and engineers. These talented people will always find their way, with or without your help.

-FAIR

How desperate..

Credible? Look who is talking, you have been doing nothing but repeatedly putting your foot in your mouth time after time saying incorrect things and quoting other people who don't know about this subject or this country even. And when someone actually calls you on it, you attack them, desperately and pathetically.  And then when you really run out of things to say you start imagining you are talking with several people.  You need LOTS of help. 

Iran was No more dependent on the US back then as it is today for the things we are discussing here. Once again, if you are capable of comprehending it, compare apples to apples. If Iran wanted to operate the most advanced fighter aircraft on the planet today, it would still be just as dependent on the US.

And as far as cars go, Iran could not manufacture a car today without foreign intervention either. All cars built in Iran today are either foreign designs or designed collaboratively with foreign consultants (the Samand), on foreign built assembly lines.

Once again, no matter how much you blab accusations without fouondation, I NEVER say that Iranians have not technological achievements and recognize them. But I don't try to monopolize one group or time over another. Good achievements have ALWAYS come out of Iran, both before and after 1979. Iranians did not suddenly obtain noboogh after the revolution.

You are so pathetic that you have nothing to back your assertion on excpet what 2 other people who are non-experts in this area have to say. Behrooz makes a better expert on Iran than Pollack, but that still doesn't make him an expert on Iranian industry, especially military industry, especially the relative capabilities of today vs 30 years ago.

And you talk about "awake"? You are just following what other people say instated of thinking and reasoning for yourself. How long do you want to continue this pathetic game? For you, facts are "nitpicky" but opinions of non-experts are gospel? You have no clue what you are talking about.

Furthermore, Israel has made planes, very good ones at that. Go look into the Kfir-C2 and other planes, which the US bought from Israel as advesaries to train their best pilots against. They have also modernized the fighters of many other countries to the most modern standards, including India, Turkey, Romania, and Latin American countries.

When you run out of arguments, you then just do the easy thing and try to ridicule me, the person you can't answer. I speak Farsi very well and I lived in Iran and helped defend Iran. Go be ashamed of yourself badbakhte beechareh.

If you claim ridiculous things, don't cry when I point them out.  Nitpickers are annoying aren't they?  The notion that you actually have to have a factual basis for what you are saying, imagine that!

"Awake"? Not in your case evidently. 

-FAIR

Zion... Excuse me, Fair 1.9

In a desert island, the statement there are 1000 Fair people is true.

Your statements are empty, so it's the same to reply to them or not.

Anonym 7

I didn't think so. You couldn't even find ONE case could you.

Empty statements like yours do way more to discredit Iran than any enemy of Iran could. Just throw accusations at people and run away like a coward when you are asked to back it up. Good job.

-FAIR

To be Fair

You are not credible, it comes out that when there is a Frasi comment, you reply differently than when it is in English.

I think that it’s you who need help. How many beekars like you are in the center?

You refute everyone who says what you don’t wanna hear? LOL. That’s called stupidity. When I quoted Behrooz it was for what he said in his book about the dependency of Iran under the Shah not for its spatial technology. So by resuming Behrooz is historian, speaks Farsi and knows the Iranian society better than you who never lived in Iran and don’t speak Farsi.

Further Behrooz says what Pollak also says. Iran was dependent on its technology to the US before 1979 and it wasn’t able to build a single car without foreign intervention. That makes two specialists who say this Fact against a nit picker like you who deny it. You think that by just saying those people are false and you are right, it will change anything about the reality? Who needs help except you?

You speak of Israel which makes air planes! Hey, Israel doesn’t need to build any air planes it got it for free from the US and that thanks to the American tax payers. Wake up, you haven’t any valid argument and are just stirring the air.

Shah was a patriot and tried to bring the country on the path it had to be. Iranians are able to build what they want and that’s thanks to every single Iranian lover who works for it. Great achievements have been accomplished from our car manufactory, to the air planes we are able to build, the satellite we put in the space (Even Ehud Barak said that, it was a success), and SO many other great achievements that every Iranian lover is proud of.

Go on stir the air.