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بهار آزادی

Mehdi wrote: “when you say IRI is bad because it doesn't have free press and yet you fail to say like where or who, you haven't said anything important or serious really other than what everybody has in their mind as the "ideal" society.”

IRI is an oppressive regime and censors the press, the internet, and any other form of media. I advocate free press just like what we had during the few months after the revolution of 1979.

We fought for it, bled for it, and victoriously ended a dictatorship. That freedom of speech and press was ours but was snatched away by blood thirsty mullahs. We want it back!

LalehGilani: More evidence

Look here: //iranian.com/main/2009/may/mousavi-rahna...

Even more evidence that there is nothing going on in Iran other than daily mass murders, destruction and jailing of writers, etc. People are being oppressed. Just see the video and how people are all dead!

LalehGilani: Your case proven!

Take a quick look at this and see the massive destructions and daily murders. This IS EVIDENCE: //iranian.com/main/albums/bam-reborn

Fred, Laleh Gillani

Debating with the likes of Laleh Gillani or Fred is a waste of time.

They lack the basic understanding of the realities of Iran and they badly need to come to terms with them and stop living in their dream worlds.

I think those of us with clear and objective reasoning have all made our points clear.

Thank you

tape player (to Fred)

Fred, tell your AIPAC handlers to reload you with a new tape.

The marvelous Dr.Strangelove

So what the Islamist nuke lover has to show for his thirty years of collaboration with his murderous Islamist republic is the emergence of NGOs that are in spite of, not because of Islamists like him?

  No wonder whenever via some satellite program the nuke lover or his Islamist guru expose their corny defense of the Islamist ideology to the captive Iranians in the Islamist ruled Iran they invariably get an earful. Islamists are just marvelous. 

LalehGillani: The on-existent ideal

So who or where is that ideal? You seem to point to some idealistic regime that doesn't exist in reality but only in our minds. I pointed out that when you criticize or mention bad statistics of a regime, unless you compare it with something real, it will be meaningless. Of course you could always say "ideally." But when you say IRI is bad because it doesn't have free press and yet you fail to say like where or who, you haven't said anything important or serious really other than what everybody has in their mind as the "ideal" society.

On the one hand I think you exaggerate the issue with IRI and blow them way our of proportion and on the other hand you propose no "real" alterbative - just som eidealistic etopia. Your criticism, if not attached to some real alternative, is meaningless. ANY regime can be criticized the same way.

The Alternatives?

Mehdi wrote: “If you want co compare crimes, or name crimes or wrongdoing, it would be meaningless unless you compared it with the alternative... But your assumptions falls apart as soon as we look at these "alternatives" and what they have accomplished. Which ones do we pick - the MKO; the West's attack on Iraq and Afghanistan?”

Actually it wasn’t my idea to compare crimes. Every time anyone exposes IRI and the crimes committed in the name of Islam, a Muslim rises to defend his/her religion and attributes these atrocities to lunatics who don’t know anything about Islam and then points out the wrongdoings of other religions throughout the history.

This tactic has become a norm both in my personal encounters with Muslims and on Iranian.com. So I play along and say, “Let’s compare crimes to find out who is more evil…”

To answer your other question, we pick none of the above. Instead, we pick democracy and freedom. No one will hand anything to us on a silver platter. We stand alone in our struggle.

Where Did the Reformist Movement Come from?

Mammad wrote: “NGOs and HR organizations are precisely the fruits of the reformist movement in Iran.”

Historically there were two conditions that necessitated the emergence of the reformist movement in Iran. First, the rising opposition and discontent with the regime became apparent to Shi'a intellectuals who feared for the future of Islam in Iran. Second, the brutality of the regime after the massacres of 80’s and chain killings of 90’s left absolutely no room for any expression of political dissent.

Consequently, opposition had to appear to emerge from within the establishment to have any chance of survival. Once this phenomenon was born, NGOs and human rights organization took off.

There are hundreds of thousands of dissidents in Iran who use the reformist movement to achieve their immediate goals. However, the majority of these activists are under no illusions that the leaders of the reformist movement are IRI insiders whose allegiance is to the regime not the masses. When push comes to shove, these leaders will join the hardliners to oppress our nation and loot our wealth.

In short, the reformist movement has always been a tool. It has been used by the opposition to safeguard the sapling of political dissent, and it has been used by the mullahs to rein the desire for fundamental change.

Regardless of the outcome of the next election, the reformist movement will continue to play a significant role in Iranian politics for years to come. My quarrel isn’t with the movement itself but with its leaders. It is our patriotic duty to expose these leaders and bring to the forefront their true intentions and goals.

LalehGillani: Compare that to the crimes of the "alternative"

If you want co compare crimes, or name crimes or wrongdoing, it would be meaningless unless you compared it with the alternative. For example, how much damage have we suffered from MKO? How much damaged have we suffered from those who call themselves "activist" or "anti-regime," etc? Some of these groups are directly responsible for current illegal sanctions which are literally killing Iranians and making it impossible for some to have education and health services. But if ONLY concentrate on errors or wrongdoings of the current officials and ASSUMING that ANYTHING else would have been perfect or even better, of course it SEEMS that a violent revolution is a good idea. But your assumptions falls apart as soon as we look at these "alternatives" and what they have accomplished. Which ones do we pick - the MKO; the West's attack on Iraq and Afghanistan? We definitely see more "killing" and destruction that the mullah could ever manage in the next 100 years!

Let’s Compare Crimes…

Mammad wrote: “So, why is it that all those crimes does not have anything to do with Christianity and other religion, but Islam is attacked all the time?”

Those crimes have everything to do with Christianity and other religions. For this precise reason, the Western civilizations have passed laws to separate the Church and the State. It took the Dark Ages and the Inquisition to drive the message home.

Yes, the religious right is still alive and active in the West and on occasions wins an election or two. The victory of George W. Bush is the prime example of such a victory. As a result, the West gets another taste of what it means to allow Christian fanatics run their affairs.

You may sugar coat it any way you wish to ease your conscious and comfort your soul. The fact remains that the Islamic Republic of Iran is run by Muslims according to Sharia laws. Everything happening under IRI’s watch is the direct responsibility of Islam and Muslims who choose to support and defend the regime.

Rooster's tail, Part II

"NGOs, human rights organizations are only some of our tools."

True enough, but when did they start to appear IN IRAN? Over the past 12 years, as a direct result of the reformist movement. We absolutely positively had no major NGO or HR organization INSIDE Iran before that. Yes, there were some activists - and they are all the former revolutionaries - but nothing else. NGOs and HR organizations are precisely the fruits of the reformist movement in Iran.

"The end scenario is armed confrontation with the mullahs."

And who is going to do the fighting? You? The exiled soldiers under YOUR command, from Europe and the US? US soldiers? People of Iran, responding to your call for taking up arms?

There is nothing more to debate here. Your fantasies, wrapped in hollow, meaningless rhetoric, should be clear to even the most light-headed person.

On to the next debate.

Mammad

Harvesting not

No, what killed those courageous people buried in Khavaran (including two of my college contemporaries, and an old friend) was not my religion. A reactionary, deviant, skewed interpretation of my religion was used as a tool to kill those courageous people. This was not the first, and won't be the last, time that religion was used to kill people.

1. The "God's chosen people" have been doing that in another part of the Middle Mast for 60 years.

2. In the name of fighting the "Godless communists" hundreds of thousands of people were murdered in Latin America by blood thirsty military dictatorships supported by the US, including bishops, clergy, nuns, etc.

3. Christianity was used by Serbian fascists to slaughter 350,000 muslims in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

4. Just this past week we all learned that invasion of Iraq was a Christian crusade by George W. Bush and company after all, when in every report that Rumsfeld was submitting to Bush, he was quoting the Bible, and the invasion has killed anywhere between 200,000 and 1 million Iraqi innocent people.

5. At least 1 million Algerian Muslims were slaughtered by the Christian French during Algeria's war of independence.

6. I will not even get into how many innocent people were murdered in Latin America and Africa by the Christian colonialists, in the name of forcefully converting them to "civilization" and "Christianity."

So, why is it that all those crimes does not have anything to do with Christianity and other religion, but Islam is attacked all the time?

So, once again, you are espousing nothing - absolutely nothing - but hot, meaningless rhetoric.

And, the last thing I want is for you to defend my rights. You are fantasizing, dear.

Mammad

What is our Struggle?

Max2009 wrote: “What is “our struggle” exactly? Can you name me the movement and its leaders? Can you please give more details on its nature, and how to join it?”

Our struggle is a grass-root movement, risen out of the ashes of several attempts to bring about democracy to Iran. From Mosaddeq’s vision to 1979 revolution, from armed uprising of guerillas to indiscriminate assassinations conducted by MKO, our nation has learned valuable lessons amongst which is a deep mistrust of any self proclaimed leadership.

At this point, the movement is alive and active but has no leadership. Although there are many stars amongst Iranian political activists, the masses have not rallied behind one group yet.

This is a natural progression of a grass-root movement and must not be taken as its weakness. On the contrary, while the concepts of human rights, democracy, and equality take root amongst Iranians, leaders will emerge from within Iran to be answerable and accountable to the masses.

You may join the movement by opposing IRI unconditionally and taking an allegiance to serve Iran and Iranians. Rattle the cages! Let the rules know that we are here, we are alive, and we will not be silenced, fooled, or manipulated.

How to start violence (revolution) and destroy Iran

The revolution crowd, along with US/Israel-attck-Iran-and-change-regime crowd first present falsehood and extreme exaggeration of the actual situation. Then they "demonstrate" that there is no hope. They "show" that "nothing has worked." For example, right now the right wing Israelis claim that no amount of diplomacy has worked (while at the same time saying diplomacy is a sign of weakness and it legitimizes "the enemy.") A contradiction in terms in itself.

Then they hope that the masses will agree to violence and destruction of everything in the vain hope that somehow magically out of all this violence and confusion, a super-fantastic Utopian regime will come to existence and not only the country will not collapse into a disastrous civil/ethnic/secratian war but an amazing unity will result and within about 24 hours, everybody in Iran will have at least a Master's degree (fully educated) and everyone will have a 15 bedroom mansion (minimum) as well as three Mercedeces (some will have to live with BMW only) and all their kids will be polite and everybody will live happily ever after!

This is essentially how Mosad/CIA/KGB conglomerate started the last revolution in Iran and this is how they hope to start the new one. Only a fool will believe them.

The first step to a better society is honesty and decency. These group have neither!

Laleh

Thanks for responding in a  specific manner. Where were these young folks? Somewhere outside Iran?  Surmising that 50-60 young Iranian students have passed through the dragon’s mouth to get an entry-visa to the US or Europe sounds like a self-deception  given the situation of the mobility of anyone on an Iranian passport. But if they were not traveling from inside, then, as valid as their points might be, they won’t quite fit the bill as a response to my reference to folks inside.

You‘re given facts and dared to counter-argue, and you retort with rhetoric. You’re asked to use imagination and come up with hypothetical or real scenarios of success, and you return to a romanticized version of a language which has long been discredited.  Only if your interlocutors could figure out how to engage in any fruitful conversation with you.  I don’t wish to think it impossible, but you leave little choice. If all I can do is to give you buzzwords to twist and strengthen the rhetoric, I should think I have something better to do. So good luck.

Changing of the Guards

desideratum.anthropomorph wrote: “Just four years ago as all the hopes of the young reformists had to be invested in the next best option and the run-off results left their hearts gloomy, it was again those hundreds of thousands of voices that said ‘we lost it this time’ but in four years have to do better….’it’s on us to make a change’.”

What change are we talking about? Exchanging one turban head with another? Trading an inquisitor with a well dressed mullah who generously graces the rest of us with the right to breathe the same air as Muslims?

Are we talking about wiping the slate clean so that with the changing of the guards, another generation of Muslims can stuff their pockets with our national wealth, intimidate us to submission or fool us into obedience?

Our nation is done with all flavors of Islam including the reformist movement and MKO.

Borrowing from desideratum.anthropomorp

Max2009 wrote: “It is orchestrated by IRI insiders? So what? At some point or another, there are people who break ranks or try to do things differently because they are evolving.”

After participation in mass murders, one can’t evolve out of that responsibility. To borrow desideratum.anthropomorph’s words, the therapeutic dose of this reality must be multiplied… Its bitterness does stink…

desideratum

that's poetry.

thanks.

When was it?

desideratum.anthropomorph wrote: “When was it when you last spoke to a good number of young post-1979 born Iranians to claim that “[g]enerations born after the revolution have bore witness to the failure of their parents’ visions”?”

I met with a group of about 50-60 Iranian students three months ago. They were all young under the age of 25. Amongst various topics discussed were the Maa-Hastim movement, the upcoming elections, and the future of our struggle for democracy.

Laleh

You are actually hilarious. Thank you for the laugh.  When was it when you last spoke to a good number of young post-1979 born Iranians to claim that “[g]enerations born after the revolution have bore witness to the failure of their parents’ visions”?  As you’re (rightfully) finding your comfort zone behind your screen, hundreds of thousands of those young post-revolutionary voices are losing sleep over campaigning.  They do that by writing, talking, shouting when needed, coming up with best campaign strategies, finding friendship and love through all of this, and investing hope in a future which will be largely theirs.  And, I must say, as a teacher, I’m proud of each and every single of them.  Just four years ago as all the hopes of the young reformists had to be invested in the next best option and the run-off results left their hearts gloomy, it was again those hundreds of thousands of voices that said ‘we lost it this time’ but in four years have to do better….’it’s on us to make a change’.  It’s your absolute right to scream all your past and present pain out, but to be effective, it helps to have some dose of reality.  In the case of someone whose words bear on a huge chasm between their experience and what’s going on inside, this therapeutic dose of reality need to be multiplied. And, of course, then its bitterness will stink. But you’d have to take it if you have any wish to be taken seriously on any level of discourse or practice.  

Ms. Gillani

What is “our struggle” exactly? Can you name me the movement and its leaders? Can you please give more details on its nature, and how to join it?

Well, if the reform movement is a creation of the mullahs, then you are implying that the newspapers closures were just a joke, that the arrests of dozens of reformists was just comedy, and the assassination of many others was also pure fantasy.

It is orchestrated by IRI insiders? So what? At some point or another, there are people who break ranks or try to do things differently because they are evolving.

May I remind you that many reformists were barred from running in elections in 2004 and 2008? Are you again going to say they are just paid actors?

Can you please tell me who exposed the chain murders of 1998 and their nature, which ended up in the closing of a newspaper which was the reason why the student uprising of July 1999 started? Can you please do that?

Did you know that during Khatami’s presidency, Mr. Emad Baghi was holding classes at university studying the 1988 Mass executions of political opponents?

Exposing the Reformist Movement

Max2009 wrote: “Why are you concentrating your attacks on the reformists mainly? Why are you not attacking Ahmadinejad and his disastrous term in office instead, because it is him who was in power for the past four years, not reformists!”

The reformist movement is orchestrated by IRI insiders. Mullahs themselves are behind the movement.

I have said this several times on this site. So please forgive me for repeating it: Mullahs are sly and nimble power players. They have so far outlasted their ideological and political opponents for centuries. The reformist movement is their last ace in the deck, having the potential to derail our struggle towards a true democracy.

Ahmadinejad doesn’t need my help to expose his legacy. He is doing a fine job of it himself!

To What End?

Mammad wrote: “You say your solution is "resisting the IRI." Fine. But, to what end? What is the end scenario? In other words, how will resisting the IRI - which I support if, in a practicable and well-defined manner, will lead to tangible results, and is not sheer slogan the way you speak of it - lead to a change of government?”

The end scenario is armed confrontation with the mullahs. The masses will dictate the conditions and timing under which this conflict will escalate. While we resist IRI, the tangible results are two folds: The regime is weakened and exposed, and the masses gain confidence in their collective power.

Iranian nation state has transformed radically during the last thirty years. Generations born after the revolution have bore witness to the failure of their parents’ visions. The young is seeking a way out of the current situation, searching for an identity to define and distinguish themselves. Until this process reaches a meaningful conclusion, we must resist IRI by any and all means. Passive resistance, NGOs, human rights organizations, and the internet are only some of the tools at our disposal.

No, participation in fabricated elections is not one of them!

Ms. Gillani

Ms. Gillani

I think you have lost your mind. Your thirst for power reminds me of the Mojahedin. You are no different than the extremists in power.

Happy Harvesting!

Mammad wrote: “Your enemity toward my religion is also well-noted!”

After IRI has killed innocent people for thirty years in the name of Islam, how can you talk about the enmity of others towards your religion? Do you know who are buried in Khavaran? Kafirs killed by Muslims in the name of Islam. Children and young adults were slaughtered while in captivity and then buried in shallow, mass graves.

In early days, the families of the fallen were told, "لعنت آباد reeks of Kafirs! Dead Muslims don’t stink!”

Mammad, this is what your religion has sown. A day will come that our country is no longer in the clutches of an Islamic theocracy. Then and only then, you will fully understand the extent of this “enmity.”

At the end, it will be up to political activists such as me to rein the anger of the masses and their thirst for revenge… The day will come that I will be standing up for the rights of people like you!

(I will address your other question in another post.)

Rooster's tail

Slowly, dom-e khorous az laa-ye abaa daareh darmiyaad.

Mammad

Why the religion card again Mammad?

Sir, you always play this religion card. No one cares that you are a Muslim. Everyone attacks the IRI and its brand of Islam and its attempt to shove it down our throat.

If people just practiced their religion at home and did not mix it with politics (all religions), no one would give a hoot and the world would be a much better place.

You are proposing here to work within the confines of the lunatic Islamic IRI to change it. This is what people are finding objectionable.

I saw in another thread were you were debating with Jamshid and how you were treating your "friends" and others who took up armed struggle against the Shah as heroes.

Would armed struggle against the Islamic IRI be Kosher for you? Would you treat the people who take armed struggle against the IRI as heroes as well? Or will you be against armed struggle because they will be killing Muslims and Ayatollah's to get rid the Islamist IRI regime which supports the Fagih?

Stop playing the victim as if people are attacking you because of your religion as a Muslim. People are attacking you because you want to work with political Islamists. Two different things. Don't take advantage of this in the debates here please, it makes you look even more suspicious than you already are.

The nerve of the Islamists

Only Islamists have the nerve to demand step by step plan from the victims of  their Islamist republic. It is people like the Islamist nuke lover who have to show the fruits of their three decades of collaboration with the mortal enemies of Iran and Iranians and not the other way around.  

Ms. Gilani

Ms. Gilani

1) If you are so sure about the fact that people in their large majority hate this regime, then why are you asking for a boycott, because according to your logic, if people hate this regime, then they will most probably boycott. So why this perseverance in asking for a boycott?

I am not sure if everybody looks at the situation in such a black and white pattern. They might hate the regime, but they still vote for other reasons: maybe one of them is because they feel it can still make a difference. Just like last time, not voting brought Ahmadinejad!

2) Why are you concentrating your attacks on the reformists mainly? Why are you not attacking Ahmadinejad and his disastrous term in office instead, because it is him who was in power for the past four years, not reformists!

Even if you claim that reformists are just there to save the regime, isn’t it better for our people to enjoy a little more freedom, so maybe they can organize better and come up with an alternative to this regime? Have the past 4 years under Ahmadinejad allowed anything as compared to the 8 years as under Khatami? Please give us an honest answer, not an emotional one with words such as “murderous, mass killings...” Please concentrate on the facts: economy, human rights by COMPARING the two.

3) I think you have been away from Iran for too long and you are still fixated in the 80’s when people were arrested and killed by the hundreds and thousands. I can understand where you are coming from, and the anger you are still feeling because you expect apologies and you want to see those responsible tried and condemned, and rightly so. But the situation is much more complicated than this.

First of all, not everyone in Iran looks at things the way you do: you see this regime from the point of view of an exiled opponent with political activity under her belt, but for millions of Iranians, it is their daily “government”, which gives them their salary, their housing, their job and opposing it actively can have dire consequences. They have never had any other alternative (except maybe the Shah) so they are looking at it as something that can be changed slowly, with time, because they know that the last time there was a revolution, it turned into chaos and anarchy and the mullahs came out as winners. So elections can be a tool, even if the change is small, to express their dissatisfaction, their will for change.

I am not approving this regime or these elections, but I should look at it through the eyes of Iranians inside of the country who do not want to die or get arrested but want to slowly improve their lives.