VOTE

To Bavafa: Iranian psyche

Aziz jaan you and I both know our hamvatans! we want everything EASY, FREE, and SAFE!!

We grumble, nag and complain all the time (specially when others decide for us and their decision is not to our liking)but never ever stand up to get what we want on our own unless we are PUSHED by some force (internal and/or external) and believe that there is some personal self-serving gain in it for us with the least amount of expense.

To Get real & Mehrban: Perhaps I am speculating

But how else can we (fairly) evalute the situation when they go and vote for the system. If their hope is for the next guy to be a bit better, well the experience has shown that it has not really been or at least by any significant amount to improve their rights and living condition.

Mehrban:

I know different people have different circumstance and experiences in Iran, but I know for a fact that my dad (falls within one of the category you have listed) has not voted and he is still has his job, coupons and has not been harassed for not voting. Now, it could be that he is an older person and maybe some what respected in his community but my younger brother did the same and felt little to no consequence as a result. But I am not discounting your point flatly either. But think about it, if we are not willing to sacrifice some (perhaps our job or coupons) to change a system, then perhaps we deserve what we get.

Regards

Mehrdad

parham

I said iran, and the US are Republics and not democracy. These are different forms of government. It all began with discribing our costitution. My experience is that if you are not listening the first time, you properly won't listen the second time. Read all my comments from the first carefully and if have any question then I'll be glad to answer.

Voting in Iran

Many Iranians who will vote, besides the ones directly connected to the regime do so because they need their shenasnamehs stamped.  Teachers, workers, pensioners, university professors, government employees and others need to get the stamp in order to keep their job or get a job or get their coupon for rice and other government handouts, etc.  

All this marvelling at a democracy and how privileged we are that we can vote...... to their ears is laughable. 

To Banvafa: but you are speculating here

But here you are speculating when you say that people in Iran are "OK with the system" because they don't see any viable alternative that encourage them to act.

PUTTING UP WITH THE SYSTEM does not mean that they are OK WITH THE SYSTEM "because they don't see any viable alternative"! Not by a long shot. At least that was not my feeling when I visited Iran a few months ago.

Really Fair (not verified)

Indeed, your name is not verified. If Shaghayegh had a point, he/she/it would actually make it instead of talk down to people and brag about his knowledge and ridicule others. Go find out the definition of republic before you make any judgement and take sides with an arrogant, self congratulatory, self proclaimed expert. That is if you are interested in fairness, and believe in the name you have chosen for yourself.

-FAIR

آب از سر چشمه گل آلوده است...

SmartAss wrote: “Whether you are MKO or not is the side-note of my comment. The main point was that you are making a claim that you cannot prove or show any even vague evidence about. You talk about 30 years of "oppression" and "murder" and such commie words but you do not refer us to what it is you are talking about.”

Since the MKO label didn’t stick, you decided to try the “commie” label?

These labels are meaningless to me as I answer to a higher calling. I settle for nothing less than a free Iran, free from Islamic oppression, free from communist tyranny, free from subjugation of kings and princes.

You asked for evidence of IRI crimes. So please indulge me this reply. There are Iranian legal scholars that have dedicated their lives to gathering evidence against IRI. Iranian political activists such as me have every intention of trying IRI officials in open court for crimes against humanity. No matter how long it will take, our children’s children will carry the torch long after we are gone…

Personally, all the evidence I need stems from the experiences of my family:

The number of family members murdered by IRI,
The number of years we have spent in IRI dungeons,
The tortures and wounds inflected upon us,
The constant terror under which we live,
Our voices raised in any form (articles, blogs, books) silenced by IRI thugs.

For a more comprehensive list of IRI crimes, please refer to //www.islamicrepublicscrimes.blogspot.com/

Shaghayegh where you're wrong

is where you say this is a democracy.
You don't cut out people from a constitution under the pretense that the majority voted for an "Islamic" state (now 30 years ago) and then create a voting system within that sub-group. That's cheating.

Never even mind the filtering done even within that sub-group. A democracy would have comprised the ENTIRE POPULATION OF IRAN. Not only those who agreed with an Islamic state at a certain point in time.

early results are in...

about the article

first paragraph: to compare the democratic system (or the evolution of) in the us to the voting bs that the iri is feeding its people and the world is, at least, irresponsible.  and at most, it’s the shameless tactic of iri to feed a bunch of hogwash on uncensored sites operating in the west. 

second paragraph: “how do we repay these brave souls who fought to earn us the fundamental right of a say in society?”  if you’re referring to the revolutionaries, the mullahs repaid them by placing a hat on the graves of each one of those poor souls.  sare oona kolah raft va sare mardom bikolah moond.  those who don’t plan to vote, don’t view voting as an obligatory chore; they view it as a sham that is.  just read the comments below.

third, fourth, and fifth paragraphs: these are the arguments that were lifted from debates of voting in the us where, even though, people may believe in their democratic system, they may not be inspired by the candidates presented to them.  the “author” seems to be underpaid by the iri and is getting lazy with penning an original or creative piece for our consumption. learn from abarmard.  

sixth paragraph: there may be differences between the candidates.  one wears a turban, one doesn’t wear glasses, and each responsible for executions of different set of people; but there are no “fundamental” differences (pun intended) between them.  as you can see in their pictures, all are raising their right hand to hail their “rahbar.”

seventh paragraph: you failed to mention the candidates’ honorable works.  need i say more?  

eighth paragraph: “every vote counts…”  really?  has there ever been an international observer in the iranian elections?  is iri free of political prisoners?  was zahra kazemi’s voice heard?  are the basijis in iri to bring justice to the people?  ….  i guess in 1981, when khamenei became president with over 95% of the vote and nearly 100% voter turnout (about 17 million votes in a country of 41 million people), it was the people’s vote that were counted.  you can go down the results of every election in iri and you can see the usual suspects and the apparent fraudulent results.

lastly, i don’t think that even those who vote are idiots (although, i consider myself an idiot for voting in 2001).  they must have an agenda or a perception that the act of voting satisfies it.  but you, sir or madam, obviously have no shame.  the iri infiltrates these sites and urges people to vote against ahmadinejad and creates an environment in iran to do just the opposite (rahbar implicitly and explicitly supporting him, closing of newspapers, etc.).  the outcome of the election is already determined: ahmadinejad 63%, mousavi 29%, the other two stooges 5%, and 3% invalid votes.    

by the way shaghayegh, you can come down your intellectual high horse and polish your grammar or just write in farsi if it helps.  please don’t tell people to read books that you supposedly read because if you understood the content of those books, then you can relate what you learned from them to others.

have a nice day.

to Get real : I can't argue how many really participated before

As I don't really know and it would be only speculation and hearsay. Although my friends and family indicated contrary to your friends and family, never the less, not voting is not only a sign for the people for the discontent, it is also to the ruling system.

But, is it possible the they are OK with it, not happy but OK and prefer it to the alternative (Monarchy, MKO type regime, a happy go but poppet of the foreign state, a religion-less state, etc). Perhaps they don't see any viable alternative that encourage them to act.

I honestly don't know the answer, only ought to conclude since there isn't a great and united opposition, they must be OK with the system.

Mehrdad

you didnt stood to your name

Shaghayegh has totally got you. He might be wrong because he is pro iri but he does have solid points. You failed to respond properly and the googling republic part was just BAD.

Arrogant Shaghayegh

No, I don't thank arrogant people who believe they are better and know better than others. Otherwise I would thank Khamenei and other marja'e taghlid and other self congratulatory figures like yourself everyday.

Any literate person can google republic and see what Plato referred to in his seminal work. But definitions are not frozen in time, and the meaning of the word has evolved from 2400 years ago. You asked me to define republic and I clearly stated how I define it, and left room open for other people's understanding, unlike the arrogant person you are.

If you want to be stuck in time from 2400 years ago, then go right ahead. But then North Korea, USSR, Nazi Germany, and Baathist Iraq are all republics. Congratulations on your hollow victory.

And furthermore, for someone who claims to be knowledgeable, you are sure quick to run away and cop out from an argument by putting words in people's mouth. Just because I hold the opinions I stated here doesn't mean I say Javid Shah and go West. Making statements like that just prove how pathetic and empty you are, and how little you have to teach anybody.

-FAIR

اصلاح طلبان بیش از اصلاحات فکر پیروزی خودشان هستند

اصلاح طلبان بیش از آنکه به فکر پیروزی اصلاحات و این تفکر باشند به فکر پیروزی خودشان هستند

//www.voanews.com/persian/2009-05-20-voa35.cf...

but that could also apply to ALL Iranians (including the so called "opposition" outside Iran) they are only looking for their own immediate interests and self-gratifying gains, the interest of the country or people is the farthest thing on their minds. There is no wonder Iran is in such a sad miserable shape and it will get even worse ...

More publicity for Mousavi

//news.gooya.com/politics/archives/2009/05/08...

Fair, beh meno menn oftaadi

Unrealated, useless talk? why? can't admit that you didn't know the meaning of a Republic? Democracy?

I understand that you did not understand the meaning of forms of government, and still don', and you think that I am making them up.

Well, I can only educate you so much. you knowledge base as I see, is the problem here. No wonder you talk like other groups here to down with IRI and things like that. You just don't know enough. Start with the book the Republic by some guy you might have heard of "Plato"? Check him out.

I take it that you are too proud to thank me for the information. But read them and use them, don't need to agree with me in the open, just as long as you heard what our system of government is, what are constitution is and where we are headed, it's a start.

Now Javid Shah, go West. Sorry If I won't reply to you anymore. Only those who care to learn.

The fab 4

Well, well, well, I guess I just found out who the chosen 4 are !
….. Mohsen Pasdar !? He will make even a stronger case for Crimes Against Humanity.

Things are really looking up now.

To.....لی مومنی، (not verified)

نظارت استصوابی وحذف صدها شخص مستحق ترازاین 4نفر نشان آشکاری از این موضوع است که در ایران تنها دارودسته ولایت فقیه همه کاره وتصمیم گیرنده هستندوخواهند بودوپاسخ روشنی به کسانی است که دراین دور تسلسل واهی دنبال برون رفت از مشکل ویا رسیدن به دموکراسی هستند
وبه روشنی مشخص است که عمل رژیم یک انتصاب بوده وکسی حق ندارد خارج از چهار چوب فکری ولایت فقیه ویا خارج از تفکرشیعه درراس مسئولیتی قرار داده شود
آیا به روشنی مشخص نیست که مردم هیچ نقشی در این نظام نداشته واین عمل انتصاب است نه انتخاب؟

.Thank you, thank you and.............THANK YOU

!I'm not alone after all

Another farce...

...is that those who are disallowed from running are against the system and the consitution. What a load of BS. 450 people applied to run for president, only 4 have been allowed to run. 2 of which are ex revolutionary guards, 1 of which is a mullah. Did the 446 people that were not allowed to run proven to be against the constitution and the system?

No, the reality is, the Guardian Council decided that those people could not run and that is that.  And remember who controls the makeup of the Guardian Council.

And you call this a republic? 

What a joke.

-FAIR

Shaghayegh- defining your way out of trouble?

First of all, stop talking down to people and saying they don't understand and you do, there are many opinions and backgrounds out there, and yours is only one of them. The concepts we are talking about here are simpler than you make it out to be. You are very arrogant to claim you are there to teach people.

Secondly, who the hell are you to say where I grew up, or whether or not I care about the US if there were no opportunity, etc. You have no idea who I am, what my background is, and yes, I grew up in Iran and not north of Tehran either.

Thirdly, you can arbitrarily define anything you want and then say that is the case, but in doing so you are using circular logic. I take republic to be what is commonly defined as a republic today around the world (not just the west) post WWII- a system with three branches (separation of powers) based on the rule of law, the most basic of which is a constitution which respects human rights and civil liberties, and others made by lawmakers who are the people's representatives, who are elected. The head of state is also elected directly by the people, and is removable by the people or their representatives. The separated powers have oversight on each other, and a free press provides uncensored information.

Now if you disagree with this idea of a republic, that is fine, let us agree to disagree. You can take the term technically to mean a state which does not have a hereditary monarch, and then voila- North Korea, the USSR, Nazi Germany, and Saddam Hussein's Iraq were all republics. In this sense, the concept of republic is rather useless as it doesn't say much about a country's system of governance. You can also bring instances throughout history which were republics, but not very democratic or secular, and that is fine, but they don't really apply to today's modern world.

Finally, you argue that the Islamic republic has taken the western idea of a republic and adapted it to Iranian traditions and customs. What traditions and customs? Since when is it part of our custom for a mullah to have authority over every aspect of a country, like foreign policy and economic policy, and trade policy, etc.? Where in our tradition is the concept of velayat-e-faqih having a say in every aspect of government? This was Khomeini's invention, not an Iranian custom. When ever did Iranian women wear a purple manteu with a scarf as part of a national mandate? When ever was it a part of our culture to have no music or art or dance? Or take foreign diplomats as hostage and call it foreign policy? These are all inventions since 1979 - by the mullahs, for the mullahs, and of the mullahs. You say western countries took all this time to evolve their republics to their current form. What about other 3rd world countries who were until only recently pro western dictatorships? Like Chile? South Korea? Phillipines? Are they still figuring out now if they should be led by the pope are by a modern democratic republic? Are they any better than us? Or are we condemned to live under a mullah's rule because some of us (like you) feel like it is our "culture"?

If this is our "culture", then why do we need a "Guardian Council" to make sure we stick to our culture? Let us decide for ourself! (Or is that a "western" concept that does not work well with our "values"?

-FAIR

""For more than 28 years,

""For more than 28 years, the henchmen and death squads of Khomeini have inflicted a cruel barbarism and mass ignorance on every part of the society in Iran. Law has been replaced by "Divine Velayte-Faghih's Sharia", philosophers, scholars, writers, journalists, students, former allies, and even clerics have all been criminalized, jailed, censored, kidnapped, killed, tortured and maimed in body and soul for life.

Women, fortunate enough to be considered as half a human being might find themselves stoned to death, resort to prostitution or temporary marriages to feed their children and family, or sold as sex slaves to Persian Gulf Arab states. Hanging "heretics" in the streets as "enemies of God" and national threat to the "Holy Islamic Republic" have become popular entertainment and a religious duty (savab?).

The Islamic Republic is marked by corruption, bigotry, censorship, racism, intolerance, violence, terror, and brutal suppression of anyone who dares to express the slightest disapproval of the regime. The fanatics of Shi'a Islam are proving useful to export their martyrdom-seeking culture throughout the Islamic world.
The Islamic Republic has essentially expropriated all the resources – both human and material – which might have improved the lives of Iranians in the name of Islam and the Ummah. While an indolent army of clerics live on the state, the impoverished legion degenerate into life of crimes, addiction, and depravity.
Orchestrated by parasitic Islamic clerics, a cancer of superstition, fear and brutality has been imposed across Iran. The clerical "protection racket" requires the criminalizing of the whole of humanity through the doctrine of Sin. Once a particular mullahcracy, it has become wedded to the military Junta funding and training terrorists of all stripes.

The barbarian tribes that are overrunning Iran are for the most part, true believers (so called men of principles); and the forces that oppose them are tired and their spirit broken. A new Islamic Inquisition was set in motion in 1979 and it continues in full swing.""

No demogaugic troops of aghazadeh and khanoomzadeh propaganidsts can wipe the murderious and corrupt trail of the Islamic republic reign of terror.

what a farce. Are we really

what a farce. Are we really expected to believe in this diatribe that can only be generated by a beneficiary of true fascism in the form of theocracy?

These people have many things in common,

The most important one is that they are all from same rotten root (Shia theocracy). who suppress it citizen because of, will it be politics, different religion, ethnicity. Election in Iran is joke.

Fair Think again

You are mistaking. Firstly before you give us your wisdom, define a Republic. I'll answer accordingly, since you seem to not know what Republic mean.
Democracy is another form of government, Iran and the United States for example are Republics and not Democracies.

Now To make you understand, firstly we were discussing the constitution of Iran. I was explaining the misunderstandings and misinterpertation of the constitution mentioned by Fred. No question there, as he changed the topic again and said some stuff about five fallacies in my arguments!!

The Islamic Republic is a Republic. There are many part of the system that like it to be a Islamic Rule by a group rather than Republic. Hear me clear that you are similarly confused as some others including Fred. Today we have an Islamic Republic, means as Fred mentioned, a concept based on the Western idea but changed to fit the Iranian culture and traditions. The Republics in the West ran by the power of the church. In a long struggle they gradually moved the Church from the governing body (officially) but not really. The Western societies including the United States is a very religious society. In Iran, we are now a Republic for only 30 years.

A Republic in the true sense is not a democracy. It is based on elite group of people who choose the directions for the rest. Similar to the United States. However it is done, it is best practiced when is in line with the culture and traditions of the land. Unless it's copy and pasted from another country, which of course comes with hidden prices to pay.

Democracy is also different than freedom. Democracy means rule of the people. That could be Hamas in Palestine, Hezbullah in Lebanon, or Muslim exterimists in Egypt. So just because there is a democracy doesnt' mean that there is freedom. Get that clear.

The Western world has practiced their Democracy or Republics and after many mistakes they came up with a solution that has become their society today. We are doing our part and need to get there. Not where the west is, but in parallels based on our experiecnes and traditions.

Let me give you an example (by the way, the only reason I bring out the examples of the west in compare or contrast to Iran is because you are not thinking about Iran when you think about the people, the culture, the traditions but think about where you live or have grown up in the West. Well I got a news for you, that's not Iran or anything like Iran or Iranians thinking process. the majority of Iranians are not based on northern Tehran and don't share your reasoning) I recently visited the Azarbayjan Republic. Most of the people there were listening to the Iranian radios broadcast for Azarbayjan province. Programs like Friday Prayers, Traditional music, Debates, and etc. I asked them why, they replied because it's their culture and tradition. They shared the values of the Islamic Republic. They did not care or wanted to care about the Western values that their government was promoting. Something that the West is complaining about (The Iranian influence in the region). That's the region for you.

The Islamic Republic and its constitutions have a great constitutional rights in the article 59 that declares the public referendum, if 2/3 of congress agrees. So if people vote their constituants in, they can ask them to vote for a refrundum. That's the importance of vote. US doesn't have that, does it? (Powerless? you are even in the US, so be fair. If the economic opportunities were not present, you would not care as much about the US either)

If you like to criticize that votes don't count, or only those who "agree with the system", which translates "those who agree with the constitution" can run, well of course. Every country on this planet have candidates that firstly agree with the constitution. What do you expect? Are you for real?

If you want to compare Iran to Nazi Germany, as many Iranians compare Israeli regime to the Nazis, be my guest. Iranians inside or those who know the regime just laugh at your face. It shows your lack of information about the true identity of the Iranian system along with the Iranian people.

If you are concerned about the freedom, don't mix the concept of "democracy" with freedom, as I have mentioned, in the Middle East, democracy means Islam.

Do you have any specific question about Iran, Iranians inside, the government, or the constitution, then please ask. Since I see that you really need to learn and I am willing to spare my time to teach. But I can only lead you forward, the rest is up to you

Fair

You are quite correct in your observations.  The IRI is only a "democracy" for members of its own inner circle.  This whole (s)election thing is a sham and just like with many other things with the IRI, it is designed to give the illusion of something that does not exist.  

Thank God

there are people like Fair around! No, really.

Shaghayegh- this is NOT a republic

with checks and balances.

The checks and balances in a republic are on different branches of government. The checks and balances in the Islamic republic are on the people!

That is right, the government has all these bodies to protect against a mistake made by the voters voting for the wrong person.

You cut and pasted article 107 which explains the way the assembly of experts can choose a leader who has no term limits and is leader for life until the assembly of experts say otherwise. However, you fail to mention how one gets into the assembly of experts. You claim they are elected but you fail to mention to qualify in the first place they must be approved by the Guardian Council, whose members are appointed by the leader himself, or recommended by the head of the judiciary (who is also appointed by the leader himself).

This is NOT a republic. This is a theocracy, in which people can vote on a set of candidates selected by clergy, and those very clergy can override anything the people say.

Thank you for being "willing to share your knowledge of the constitution" with Fred, but I am sorry, there is much more than one of you here. The constitution is there for anybody who wants to read it, and anyone who reads it sees that it is a dictatorship of the clergy. Enough of this charade and BS of calling the mullah regime an "Islamic democracy" or "somewhat democratic". They are no more democratic than the shah was. At least the shah did not dictate what religion you should have or how to go to the bathroom or what to wear or eat or drink.

Just having elections does not make you a republic or democracy- Hitler, Saddam, Stalin all had elections and according to their elections they were actually quite popular leaders.

-FAIR

These 4 criminals belong to

jail not running the government of Iran.

Prediction: Obama will order the bombing of the Islamic Republic nuclear sites in 2010.

God bless America

vote?

this election and talks are all a show, just to prolong iri survival, just like khatami time

LalehGillan: Why not reply to my post?

Whether you are MKO or not is the side-note of my comment. The main point was that you are making a claim that you cannot prove or show any even vague evidence about. You talk about 30 years of "oppression" and "murder" and such commie words but you do not refer us to what it is you are talking about. If one corrupt element or action in one government means that the whole country is bad then there isn't one country in the world that is good. So bring down your super-extreme exaggeration to something vaguely near truth and then you will yourself discover that your suggestions do not fit the ACTUAL situation at all!

To Mehrdad Bavafa: You can never know for sure

I remind you of four years ago that in spite of what was claimed later on after Ahmaidnejad popped out of the ballot box, a lot of foreign reporters from the Guardian, BBC, etc. claimed that majority of people in Iran participated to vote, even though eyewitnesses here and there swore that streets were all deserted and hardly any large crowd of people could be seen at any of the voting places in at least Tehran on that Friday voting day.

So how can we ever know the percentage of participants and/or non-participants? there is absolutely no way one can tell with confidence and certainty since at the end of the day everybody including foreign news sources go by what the IRI government puts forward and announces.

I still have my doubts about the "22 million" which the IRI government claimed back then to have voted for Khatami!