Taleghani's Warning on Dictatorship

Ayatollah's words of wisdom at Friday prayers, 1979

08-Sep-2011
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Rea

If this is what he'd said in 1979

by Rea on

Prophetic words. Lonely voice in a desert.

No prophet ever hath honour in his own country.


Parham

Masoud jan

by Parham on

I'm not saying this out of "bad blood between Bakhtiar and Bani Sadr supporters", really. I think the man has already been put to the test, and failed.
In any case, I don't think he contributes in any way to a good image for JM, in fact I think it's quite the opposite.
But then I'm not a member of JM!


Arj

Re Aubgousht...

by Arj on

Dear Aynak, forgive me for the late response, but I just reviewed your comment re conspiracy theory and found your point on "Aubgousht based analysis" hilarious!


Masoud Kazemzadeh

Dear Arj

by Masoud Kazemzadeh on

Dear Arj,

Twice I explicitly stated my opinion that Taleghani died due to heart attack because of his weak heart, his heavy smoking, and years in prison.

It is a FACT that there was a rumor that the regime killed him. It is a FACT that there was a rumor that the Soviet ambassador killed him. I placed videos of those who have made those claims. Each rumor had its own rationale. The rumor that Khomeini-Beheshti killed Taleghani was based on the rationale that Taleghani was a main alternative to Khomeini. The rumor that the Soviet Union killed Taleghai was based on the rationale that Taleghani posed a threat to USSR’s goal in Iran (support for Khomeini and opposition to liberals and independent leftists).

Your argument that if the USSR wanted to kill Taleghani they would not have used their ambassador is a very good argument.

Best,

Masoud


Masoud Kazemzadeh

Dear friends Aynak, Parham, and Roozbeh

by Masoud Kazemzadeh on

Dear friend Aynak,

Yes, our discussions and friendship goes back to many many years since the JM bb. As you once said, I agree more with you than your twin brother. :-)

I quickly read the exchanges on the blog on "Dr." I agree with you on Mir Fetroos. You are right, after 10 years of attending four universities and still he could not state that he got a BA or BS degree from any of them. This actually shows that he was a very bad student. One is supposed to finish a four year degree in 4 or 5 years. After 10 years, and he could not state what degree and from what university in which discipline. Apparently, he took classes and did not pass them; otherwise he should be able to state the degree. Also on his Ph.D. dissertation, he could not state that he officially received his Ph.D. The name of one of his advisers is not relevant. The point is that he did nor present or defend his dissertation. He could go to another university, pass the Ph.D. qualifying exams and then present what he has already written to the committee in the new university. And I spend about 1 minute on the site of American Global University. I had never heard of it before. On the front page there was no link to the Accreditation of the university. It appears to me that this is one of those so-called paper mill places that give various "diplomas" for money. I need to look more than 1 min to be certain, but I think you are correct that this place looks fishy. I appreciate your fantastic research and writings on Mir Fetroos. From the very little I know, I agree with you. Thank YOU.

BOTH you and G. Rahmanian are decent pro-democracy posters. I could not figure out why in the world your very minor differences escalated. You two agree on about 90% of the issue at hand as well as on other issues more than 90% of the issues. It appears to me that there is just a minor misunderstandings between two very decent posters.

Best regards,

Masoud

 

===========================

Parham jaan,

Aynak was using the screen name "Aynak" at JM bb.

Bani Sadr is not the best or brightest activist around. But he was a member of JM in 1960-1964 period. His role in confronting Khomeini was very significant. The issues included torture of political prisoners, freedom of the press, the attacks by IRGC and Komiteh on others. He always calls himself a Mossadeghi and a democrat. I have a lot of problems with a lot of the things he has said. I certainly, would not put him in the same place as JM, and NAMIR, and Iran Liberal Party. But I would include him as a semi-democrat or democrat with a lot of caution and mis-givings. Unfortunately, there is a lot of bad blood between supporters of Bani Sadr and Bakhtiar. The point is in the ocean of extreme anti-democratic groups in Iran, Bani Sadr does not look as bad. One has to compare him to fundamentalists (including reformist members of the oligarchy), or monarchists, or Mojaheds, or some of the Stalinists. Compared to Sanjabi and Bakhtiar, Bani Sadr does not look good, but compared to Khomeini, Rajavi, Kianouri, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, Mousavi, Karrubi, he does look good.

Do I think Bani Sadr should be the next president of the democratic secular republic of Iran? Definitely no. But does he have some supporters? Yes. Would it be beneficial to have him and his supporters within a broad coalition opposing the vf regime? Yes. After the overthrow of the terrorist regime, let Bani Sadr run to Majles deputy from Hamedan (his birth place). Either he would win or not win. I do not see much benefit from attacking and isolating those who meet the MINIMUM requirement for democracy: accept separation of religion and the state, rule of majority in free and democratic elections, human rights and civil liberties for all others. Based on what I have read and heard from Bani Sadr, the poor soul meets these criteria.

Best regards,

Masoud

 

================================= 

Roozbeh jaan,

Thank YOU for your kind words. You are welcomed my friend.

Best regards,

Masoud

 


Arj

Re the rationale

by Arj on

Dear MK, thank you for your compliments. Indeed, I keep being blessed with fellow commenters' kindness on IC to the point of embarrassment!

With regards to your comment on counter-productivity of scaprgoating and necessity of critical vew of the past erroneous actions and positions taken by all political entities, I couldn't agree more! Yet, your attempt at rationalizing a conspiracy theory in your previous post  is an antithesis to your points above!

I'm not a supporter of the Tudeh Party or the former Soviet Union, but I can't follow your connection between the TP's positions vis a vis liberals and independant leftist groups with the alleged murder of a political figure by the Russian embassador! Yes, TP was opposed to liberals and independant Marxist groups and it had a tight relationship with Soviets, but how do you come around to turn that into a motive to have Taleghani killed by, of all people, the embassador of a foreign country?

Was there no less conspicuous method or individual to carry out an assassination than the Russian embassador?! Were theree no other ways to get rid of him? Moreover, why Taleghani? Yes, he had a good relationship with the above-mentioned groups, so did many others. Was Taleghani an immediate alternative to Khomeini much less a threat to the Soviets to risk an international controuversy over?! We all have our beefs with various political entitie, but resorting to vindictive rationales behind conspiracy theories, is a whole different issue! 


aynak

Parham

by aynak on


I used the same id aynak, don't change much, except age.

(No I am not from Ahvaz and not a fan of RayBan)  It is supposed to denote my own acceptance of the shades though which I see reality.

 

 

 


Roozbeh_Gilani

"political sabotage"

by Roozbeh_Gilani on

Arj: I agree with you again, and I dont think of you as a dreamer at all.

G.R. Yes, I have heard of the GhadessiyehII also!

Masoud: It was great reading your detailed informative comment on taleghani. Thanks a lot.

All in all, this -bar minor personality clash- had been a great blog, with lots of great comments. 

"Personal business must yield to collective interest."


Parham

aynak

by Parham on

What did you post as on the JM boards, meaning what was your handle/pseudonym there, if you don't mind me asking?

Masoud jan

One small remark, and I'm saying this as someone who favors your ideas generally - Honestly, when you consider Bani Sadr as part of "pro-democracy forces", I get the impression that you're discrediting yourself. Bani Sadr has never been part of democratic forces in any way as far as I know. The fact that he stood up to Khomeyni doesn't really make him a pro-democracy man either. In fact, I don't think I've ever really heard him even say that word, at least not in a positive way; but I could be wrong about that.
Anyway, just thought I'd tell you that.


aynak

Re: Aynak Jaan

by aynak on

 

Dear Masoud, you wrote:

"Why such an attack on our dear friend G. Rahmanian? He simply stated
correctly that there was a rumor. Also why do you say that he usually
makes news upside down? Could you please show us all these usual
upside-down stories? 
"

I respect folks like yourself for being out open with your real name and identity.   Myself, I have been a screen name for a long time and a lot of people who I write to as well are also screen names and I am very comfortable with that.   Part of this comfort comes from the ability to be frank.   I call B.S when I see it, without hesitation.   I also hate Tamlogh and that kind of crap.

So there is by definition nothing personal.   (how can it be, when  we have no idea who the other person is?).   As for G.Rahmanian, I have only read one  of his posts  before today: "Proper use of Dr. by Iranians" and now  this thread. 

http://iranian.com/main/blog/bahmani/proper-use-dr...

Initially in that exchange, G.Rahmainans post was something off of left field, so I ignored it, just like I ignore a few others.  I am sure many ignore me, as we all have favorite and not favorite writers.   There it was a discussion about people calling themselves Dr.'s to create credibility for themselves (which they otherwise lack) and this gentlmen comes in saying having or not having Doctrate degree (but really an honarary degree) is not important!?!  (i.e an honarary degree of Mirfetroos is as good as a real one).  That was not even the subject of my writing (nor that thread) about Ahmadi Nejad, Rezai and  MirFetroos, (all fake Doctors).   Mirfetroos is actually one of the individuals who justifies "Qyham melli" by calling it necessary to stop Soviet plans (how original).   Needless to say, based on that interaction (couple of days ago) and this one, where death of Taleghani was "ruomored" to be done by the Soviets (BTW, this is the first I hear it), to me I put 2 and 2 together.  (BTW, someone with your knowledge of 28 of Mordad and black operation, should also be able to call the destructive role of BLACK OPERATION)  Another creation of that road scholar MirFetroos in action.    Rest of his writings, has not given me any indication to be any more hopeful.

"Whether one agrees or disagree with GR, he or she is one of the most decent (pro-democracy) posters on this site."

We have known and talked over these forums (and JM forum) for many years Dear Masoud.   I really don't engage too much about the personality of posters,  or charactesrs, as I said, to me it is not really personal.    And I also never take it personal.   If I make a stupid remark and someone calls it for what it is, I don't get offended,  just  embarrassed.   Frankly I won't even engage with folks much further, once I know there is nothing I can learn nor teach.  So that would be the scope of my reading of G.R and hopefully I am wrong like I am 99% of time :)

 

 


G. Rahmanian

Dear Arj:

by G. Rahmanian on

I do not take things personally. Here's a forum where I can learn many things about our country. We do not have to agree on everything, of course. As a Russian saying goes: "Never trust those who agree with you all of the time!"


Masoud Kazemzadeh

Dear Arj

by Masoud Kazemzadeh on

Dear Arj,

Let me second your attempt. We need to fight against construction of bogeyman in politics. You are right, during the Shah’s time, it was the Tudeh Party and under the VF regime it has been the PMOI.

We need to criticize what TP and/or PMOI have done. But we should fight against those who blame every ill they have done on the TP or PMOI. We ought to be honest and fair and objective.

Also I agree with you on your fight against conspiracy theories. These conspiracy theories are not only false and stupid, but terribly harmful for the pro-democracy struggle. If we blame everything on the Engelisiha and nothing was actually done by the Iranian people, then how in the world the PEOPLE themselves could participate in politics.

Again, we ought to admit the mistakes that OUR people, OUR intellectuals, and OUR political parties have committed. We are mostly responsible for our own fates. We should point to those events that foreign powers interfered and harmed us as well as when we ourselves did mistakes and harmed ourselves.

Best,

MK


Masoud Kazemzadeh

Dear GR

by Masoud Kazemzadeh on

Dear G. Rahmanian,

Please call me "Masoud." I meant every word: You are one of the most decent posters on this site. And I am honored that you consider me a friend.

Best regards,

Masoud

 


Arj

Re political sabotage

by Arj on

Dear RG, the answer is trying to eliminate the concept of "bogeymen" in our political culture altogether! Once there are no fear and paranoia of opposing entities in our political atmosphere, such under-handed tactics would prove futile and pointless. I know.., you may think I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one!!! :)


Arj

Re the rumor

by Arj on

Dear GR, I hope you did not take the exchanges I had with aynak as an attempted jab at you. It was a general observation with regards to conspiracy theories and political feud. My take on your theory was stated in my first comment on this thread.


G. Rahmanian

Dear Dr. Kazemzadeh:

by G. Rahmanian on

Thank you for your comment and nice things you have said about me. I am very happy to be considered your friend. You made my day!


G. Rahmanian

Dear Dr. Kazemzadeh:

by G. Rahmanian on

Thank you very much for your very informative post. For a moment, I thought I was making up all these rumors. Just kidding! Seriously, I learned a lot. I read a letter or part of a letter his son who joined Peykar wrote to Taleghani, somewhere. It's a great piece to read.


Masoud Kazemzadeh

Dear Arj; Thank YOU

by Masoud Kazemzadeh on

Dear Arj,

I would like to thank you for your wonderful contributions to this site. I read your posts and agree with most of them. You are a very thoughtful, democratic, and progressive person.

Best regards,

Masoud


Masoud Kazemzadeh

Aynak jaan

by Masoud Kazemzadeh on

Dear friend Aynak,

Why such an attack on our dear friend G. Rahmanian? He simply stated correctly that there was a rumor. Also why do you say that he usually makes news upside down? Could you please show us all these usual upside-down stories?

Whether one agrees or disagree with GR, he or she is one of the most decent (pro-democracy) posters on this site.

Best regards,

Masoud

 


Masoud Kazemzadeh

Facts and Rumors About Ayatollah Taleghani

by Masoud Kazemzadeh on

1. Ayatollah Taleghani was a most decent human being. In the 1951-53 period, he was a strong supporter of Mossadegh and JM and went so far as to personally strongly criticizing Ayatollah Kashani. After the coup, Taleghani was among the very top individuals who organized the resistance to the coup regime.

2. In 1961, Taleghani along with Bazargan created Nehzat Azadi and then split away from JM by 1962 or so.

3. During 1979, Taleghani was among the very few good clerics who opposed Khomeini and velayat faghih system. The others included Garand Ayatollah Kazem Shariatmadari.

4. During the post-revolution period, Taleghani was very close to Nehzat Aazdi and close to JM, PMOI. One of Taleghani’s son was a member of Paykar. If I remember correctly, another of his sons was a member of the PMOI. His daughter Azam was and is part of the Melli-Mazhabi coalition.

5. In this speech, Taleghani is attacking Khomeini.

6. Taleghani was a heavy cig smoker and had a weak heart. His many years of incarceration under the Pahlavi regime had further cased deterioration of his health. In all likelihood, he died of heart attack due to his weak heart, and heavy cigaret smoking.

7. There were public accusations of Taleghani being killed by the Soviet ambassador in Tehran. There was a meeting between Taleghani and the Soviet ambassador that they had lunch or dinner and then he dies soon afterward (within a day or so). The rationale for the USSR killing Taleghani was that the USSR supported Khomeini, who was anti-American. The USSR opposed liberals and the independent left (Peykar, PMOI, Maoists, and some in the Fadaian who later became Minority, and Mehdi Sameh group as well as the Ashraf Dehghani group). One could discern the Soviet policy by looking at the Tudeh Party’s policies. The Tudeh Party was at that time gong-ho in support of Khomeini and viciously attacked liberals, PMOI, and the independent leftists (Peykar, and to some extent those in Fadaian who opposed Khomeini). Taleghani was closely allied with liberals (Nehzat Aazdi, and JM) as well as those in the independent left (PMOI). The Tudeh Party was close to Khomeini and opposed to liberals and PMOI. The Tudeh Party could NOT have worked against the wishes and policies of the USSR (in FACT the Soviets had just replaced Eskandari with Kianouri as the top leader of Tudeh according to the speech by Babak Amir-Khosravi who was a member of the Politburo of the Tudeh Party and present at the meeting when the Soviet dude arrived from Moscow to East Germany where they were holding their meeting and gave them the order to put Kianour as the Secretary-General of the Tudeh Party).

Here is a video of some dude claiming to be one of the physicians for Khomeini who also had some knowledge about Taleghani’s death:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06JcG8UJ0i8&feature=related

8. After the IRGC kidnaped one (or two) of Taleghani’s sons, Ayatollah Taleghani went into hiding (probably he was hidden by the PMOI). Khomeini asked him to come out. Soon after Taleghani died. There were rumors of Taleghani being murdered by Khomeini. In actual fact, immediately after he died, within days, his wife wrote a letter directly accusing Khomeini for killing him. At that time, I was attending university in the U.S. I along with another person copied and posted the letter (of Taleghani’s wife accusing Khomeini for his murder) all over the campus.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho2kWM_HVLo&feature=related

 

9. My own personal opinion is that Taleghani died due to heart attack. He did have a bad heart and he smoked and had spend many years in prison. Had he lived, our history would have been different. The death of Taleghani and the earlier death of Dr. Ali Shariati were some of the accidents of history that helped Khomeini. Shariati and Taleghani were among the very few who could have stood up to Khomeini. Ayatollah Uzma Shariatmadari was also a significant person, but he was viciously attacked by all the leftists.

10. Many leftists groups made grave error in 1979 of thinking the main contradiction was between capital and labor (thus a socialist revolution was the answer) or the main contradiction was between anti-imperialists and supporters of imperialists. Then they placed liberals (JM, Nehzat Azadi, and Bani Sadr on the side of imperialists), for not supporting mass killings of monarchists and taghotis, taking over U.S. embassy, and the like.

Had they considered that the main contradiction was between supporters of democracy (JM, NA, Bani Sadr) and supporters of dictatorship (Khomeini, Islamic Republican Party), then the broad coalition of all forces against Khomeini would have had a good chance of consolidating the government of Bazargan and cornering Khomeini.

11. Therefore, both accidents of history and wrong analysis and polices by many parties were responsible for the undermining of pro-democracy liberals and the consolidation of power by Khomeini and his reactionary and fascistic supporters.

Masoud

 


G. Rahmanian

Dear Arj:

by G. Rahmanian on

I did not rationalize anything. The example I gave was simply in response to "Why Russians." That means any crazy thing can happen. A harmless analogy. A rumor or a conspiracy theory when distorted and presented in a context other than what they are originally meant for can be as tasteless. In the context you yourself mentioned the rumor, I understood it as your intention to imply there was a conspiracy. Right or wrong I would not know unless I either ask or you decide to elaborate further. What I wrote is clear. Hadn't I heard such a rumor/conspiracy theory I would not have mentioned it. I did not make anything up. I would not. What you wrote did resonate throughout Iran at the time and was not limited to the street where your uncle lived.


Arj

Rumour vs conspiracy theory

by Arj on

Dear GR, if you don't know the difference between passing on a rumour and trying to rationalize a conspiracy theory, allow me to ellaborate: I relayed a rumor as "the word on the street..." without specualting as to who or what was behind it. Whereas, you insisted (and apparently still do) on rationalizing and explaining away your conspiracy theory with "my enemy's enemy..." deductions in your following posts!


G. Rahmanian

2nd Ghaadessieh!

by G. Rahmanian on

Dear Roozbeh: Some Iranians believe there was a second "Ghaadessieh!"


Anahid Hojjati

Aynak jan, that was a good one

by Anahid Hojjati on

I rememeber that phrase, or do I imagine that I remember it. Actually, from all these debates, one that I absolutely remember is when Bani Sadr (was it in debate with Tabari) claimed that women's hair has some rays and that is reason for necessity of Hejab. I remember even at that time, people were shocked that Bani Sadr came up with that.


G. Rahmanian

By The Way!

by G. Rahmanian on

It seems Mammad is the only one who wasn't in Iran at the time.


Roozbeh_Gilani

Arj: How would you counter the "bogeman" Conspirators?

by Roozbeh_Gilani on

 Here, I give you an example: (Admin Jan: A completely imaginary example...)

Let's say someone comes on this site, pretends to be a "Tudeh supporter", then goes about solidly backing the islamist regime (We all know that this for sure is not the current Tudeh party policy...). kinda hitting two birds with one stone. Then someone else "gets provoked", writes blogs blaming "Tudeh Party" (but really all the commies) for every ill Iran has had since and including the defeat at Ghadessieh! Then the process of demonization by association starts....

And Thank you for aticulating this so well.

 

"Personal business must yield to collective interest."


G. Rahmanian

Arj:

by G. Rahmanian on

"His residence was not far from my uncle's, and word on the street was that Pasdars prevented and stalled the ambulance and praramedics, who were dispatched to tend to him, for more than an hour (apparently till they ensured he was already dead)!"
Isn't this part of YOUR conspiracy theory vis-a-vis IR? And Kianoori accusing Beheshti, isn't that a conspiracy theory? I think you are being unfair to yourself, here, simply because you always seem to be trying to present yourself as a rational person!!!


G. Rahmanian

No Let's Not, Aynak!

by G. Rahmanian on

These kinds of debates are getting too old on this site! I asked you to show where I distorted any news and you bring Reza Shah in. Show me where I have distorted the news!!! If you cannot comprehend English, let me know! Sophistry and distortion of people's posts work with those who like to be here on the site going back and forth with pointless arguments such as those you are presenting here. You can have your infantile debates about whoever you want on your own. Again, if you haven't heard it, it doesn't mean it's not out there. Unfortunately for your type, you don't hear what you don't want to hear! Why would Kianoori talk about murder if there was no rumor about such murder? And if you were decent enough to carry on a debate you wouldn't distort what is in my posts! Here's what I wrote. Compare it with how you have distorted it. "As for his sudden death, some blame the Russians! The Russian ambassador at the time paid Taleghani a visit the night before he died, so they suspect foul play. Could be another conspiracy theory. Who knows?"


aynak

Re :conspiracy theorists

by aynak on

"Indeed, such demonization would not be possible without the existence of
bogemen with which the undesired political currents can be associated."

That is priceless, dear Arj.   Let us also not forget, the general inability for proper analysis and thinking that is required to understand a complicated  issue, which also leads to this, instead of a methodical approach of doing fact checkign ......

As a prof of mine used to say, doing all of that is a lot of work!  (Therefore my reference to Aubgousht based analysis).

 

 

 

 


aynak

Re:Anahid Hojaati

by aynak on

 Speaking of conspiracy theories:

Anahid Jan,

How do I know you are not me, impersonating as a different person who is so good at Persian to come up with a catchy phrase like:   Beheshti-Beheshti  Taleghani ro To Koshti?

 


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