Soroush: Views on homosexuality

Compares same-sex rights with incest

07-Apr-2012
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Farfromheaven2002

Chris Birch

by Farfromheaven2002 on

So? I mean what your conclusion would be.  Was the news surprising to you because only we can't teach our children to pull down their pants and show each other if they are male or female?  The fact that gays are executed in unfortunate countries is that they don't have a different physical tool in shape to show and because they are not physically different from other men or women.  That's the beauty of such an intelectual subject.  Perhaps, that's a reason why homosexuality subjects have been respected and been studies recently because of new understandings or scientific advancement.  This is in contrast to older times that only an ayatolla, rabbi or a priest had a freedom to talk about homosexuality by magic or based on "his" own experience. On the other hand, sexual encounters were considered as a dominant act by males; that's why females were better options.  The meaning of sexual encounter has been changed in many countries, and it's not the matter of force and domination any more.  One wants to have a sex (or to live) with another person not because he was looking for someone to dominate or have sex by force (physically or emotionally).  This is a life, which is in parallel not always against each other.

I hope you didn't mean to suggest more (or less) funding for stroke treatment.  Indeed, people don't become homosexual only because of illness.  It could happen because of other challenges (hardships) routes that one unintentionally takes in his/her personal life.  On the other hand, different people have different desire to know themselves; to discover their spiritual, sexual or emotional selves especially when there is a huge gate as a cultural/social barrier in front of them.  The public attitude/trend is to become similar to each other not different from others.

 

"Everyone will give more when they feel appreciated."                       

No Safe Place, Deborah Ellis


Darius Kadivar

FYI/Chris Birch: 'The stroke had turned me gay'

by Darius Kadivar on

A different me (bbc)

 

Following a stroke, Chris Birch's personality and sexuality altered dramatically. Now he is trying to rediscover who he is and why these changes may have happened.

Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

We ain't bigots

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

Might as well accept it: the Iranian people are neither homophobes or assholes. Right on ...


Farfromheaven2002

It is not fine.

by Farfromheaven2002 on

“We don’t live in Iran so we are fine”.  No sir.  There is no such a thing.  The story doesn’t end here.

With such your mentality how should I know you don’t discriminate me at my work place?  How should I know you didn’t crash my car by accident because I was a less “normal” person for you?

Research means less in a world that scientists are not able to find a handful homosexual family with their children to interview.  Most homosexual families warn their children to lie at school if they want to stay alive.  Homosexuals are like others; they are not revolutionary or activists to ask their children to open their chest for Torn arrows.  "so gay" or "so black" or "so feminist" or ...? 

Simorgh jan: I don't mean you as a person.  I meant people who you mirrored. 

"Everyone will give more when they feel appreciated."                        No Safe Place, Deborah Ellis


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

DM jan

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

 

  • I think we are both saying the same thing. Maybe in different ways but I agree.
  • Islam is obviously not the reason for homosexuality.
  • Separation of men and women does not result in homosexuality but does result in people exploring sexuality with whomever they find which may be of the same sex. This is not same as being gay.
  • Child molestation has nothing to do with homosexuality. Molesters are present in all groups. Because of statistics most molesters are heterosexual and a smaller number are gay. Again this is not due to homosexuality.
  • Regarding Islam. I am not a fan of it. Hate is a big word and I don't hate much of anything. But I want to be honest and not mix things.

In summary: I find homosexuality to be a normal thing. In people it is as ancient as humans. Mixing them is like mixing apples and oranges.


Dr. Mohandes

VPK jan

by Dr. Mohandes on

Neither Islam nor any other entities can really and in a true sense of the word Obligated or even encourage such acts. That is not true. As much as i hate to say this, Knowing that even though you don't believe in islam you certainly do not hate it (right?...), but that is usually a tool in the hands of those who want to berate or redicule islam or any other faith for that matter.

There are many times that despite presence of so many of the members of the opposite genders, Homosexual will meet their match!

CHildmolesters are an entirely different story. Can you say with any degree of certainty that they really have a gay component within them? i mean how many stories have we heard of so and so's "husband" touched a younger member of the family inappropriately?


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

Response to BS

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

Would you rather have Fereydoon Farrokhzad as a friend or AN? How about Hoveyda.

But the BS never stops. 

  • Homosexuality is not because of Islam. I don't believe in Islam but history shows gays predate Islam. They are present in all cultures and nations. The one thing Islam does it by separating men and women it encourages same sex acts because as people mature they want to explore sexuality. If no one of other gender is present then they try the same sex. This used to be handled by marrying people off young.
  • It is really obnoxious to relate bombing with homosexuality. By association you are suggesting they are similar which is a totally wrong thing. Remember the 911 *** were very much heterosexual.
  • I remember back in Iran all these boys proudly claiming to be "bacheh baz".   Which really means a gay child molester. On one hand they bragged about it but then vilified honest admitted homosexuals.



IRANLOVESISRAEL

One Hundred Percent Agreement with Dr. mousa67!

by IRANLOVESISRAEL on

It is only through love and close inter- and intra- actions that a nation stays strong and lives immortally. This can only be achieved through love and mingling among Iranians of all sexes and between them and the Israelis. The more inter-ethnic marriages between the two nations the stronger the future and longevity of them!

Dr. Love, Ph.D., M.D., J.D., Member of Iran-Israel Marriage Association.


mousa67

mr albaloo: i dont smoke. smoking is bad for ones health.

by mousa67 on

and you should avoid smoking too my friend. yes suicide bombing and homosexuality combo is limited to islamic societies only.

mr. simorgh: dont get me wrong.  other people's sexuality is their own business. in fact my chiwawa puppies hasan and hosein both display signs of homosexuality to which i turn a blind eye. but if they fasten an explosive belt around their waists while mounting each other then i'd suspect they had been visiting our local mosque bending down to allah 5 times a day. 


Simorgh5555

mousa LOL

by Simorgh5555 on

Is that suicide bomber or suicide bummer? Please clarify.


Albaloo

mousa67

by Albaloo on

What have you been smoking?   Are you suggesting that this is only a situation that exists in the Islamic country?  


mousa67

homosecxuality and terrorism are caused by islam.

by mousa67 on

if muslim men and women were allowed to mingle freely like the rest of us in civilised world, all these sexual frustrations would not lead to muslim men becoming homosexuals and committing suicide bombing in real life and on internet.


Dr. Mohandes

When we say...

by Dr. Mohandes on

We are for Homosexuals and their rights to practice what they deem as normal and Live in our socities with total freedom to do as they wish, If we the turn around and support laws and edicts that bans them and make life difficult for them , then we are shooting ourselves in the foot.

 If we were to Follow the principles of darwinism to the last letter then so many other events in our lives would have had to assume a different path/direction.

Comparing Psycological disorders that have vivid physically harmful  manisfestations with Homosexulaity is an absolutely wrong and misplaced comparison...

Oh and i am happy to be back...This censorship Bullcrap and having to wind my way down and through various proxies(aside from turning me into a rather adept IT expert) is really getting on our nerevs...

 


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

Psuedo scientific bull

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

Darwinism was also used to justify mistreatment of people. It was "social Darwinism". Many have used badly formed pseudo scientific bs to justify their bigoted or evil goals. These arguments are well known and very well discredited.

I also remember an-tellectuals using them to "prove" Islam. One of the greatest bs-ologists was Bazargan. If you like that you will love this.


Simorgh5555

Farfromheaven2002 etc all

by Simorgh5555 on

This thread is becoming 'so gay'. I hope this is my last post relating to this topic. 

I have never  said that sexual orientation is based on a genetic pre-disposition or can be rationalised by a hereditary gene pattern. There is no conclusive evidence that conditions such as dyslexia, obsessive compulsive disorder, schizophrenia, anorexia or bulemia are based on genetic disorders, yet they are psyhcological disorders which most people accept to be illnesses. I believe that homosexuality is a brain disorder regardless of scientific discourses about its genetic origins. I never said that genetic factors alone explain homosexuality but other variables such as social and environmental reasons can help explain this condition. 

I may sufffer from anorexia, and not be cognizant of my condition, but those around me, and my phsical body will argue otherwise. 

My argument against homosexuality as being 'normal' was based from a Darwinian point of view. Darwin's theory in its basic form, and it is only a theory, believes that our anatomy and physiology has developed over millions of years according to how we  as humans have adapted to our environment. We are who we are for a reason. Early humans were more physically robust and had a curved spine and our tail bone explains that we even had tails and crawled on all fours like our monkey cousins. Our tails dropped off when we learnt to walk and stand.  The primary purpose of our genitals is to assist in reproduction. If we used our genitals to only  pleasure ourselves with members of our own sex then our race would have been died out by now and our penis would have quite literally disappeared if we had no use for them. Therefore, because hetrosexual sex is required for human reproduction, and is practised by most of the world's population and also in all mammalian life then hetrosexuality is the norm and homosexuality is contra to the norm. It is as simple as that. 

We all have the right of self-determination and chosing how we wish to live our lives and with whom we chose to do so, but being gay is not a normal or healthy lifestyle. That is all. No one is pinning your backside to the wall (no pun intended) and forcing you to change your lifestyle. No one is saying treating homosexuality as a disorder is compulsory. You can either accept or reject therapy so long as you are not a threat to your self or others. We are not living in the Islamic Republic. 


Farfromheaven2002

Humans like others.

by Farfromheaven2002 on

I personally care less about successful homosexuals and their perfect media images.  I don’t care either that so many homosexuals are wealthy or live in heaven.

Homosexuals are homosexuals when they breathe, when their heart bits and when they sleep or die.  They are like other human beings.  They don’t have to be successful professionals with great body image and ribbed abdomens to prove who they are.  They don’t have to prove anything to anybody.  They are nice and dedicated enough that they don’t bully back in desperate countries because of their respect to other human beings.

They are like other humans.  You can easily find homosexual criminals and prostitutes.  Have you ever dared to confront a homosexual prostitute in Iran?  Hold on to your balls or breasts when you ever dare to doubt their existance. 

"Everyone will give more when they feel appreciated."                                                                               

No Safe Place, Deborah Ellis


Farfromheaven2002

Homosexuality and genes.

by Farfromheaven2002 on

What you did, Simorgh, was worse than hating homosexuals.  You falsified scientific information to prove your morality and guilt.

I am sorry that I have to be straight-forward with you in this subject.  Do you know about genomics that you backed your moral with genomes disorder in homosexuals?  Have you ever read a valid report or article about a correlation between genes and homosexuality?  If you read even one, you wouldn’t falsify scientific information and made fun of yourself at IC.

I am glad that research work on association of genes with homosexuality are not encouraged or even should be funded.  Imagine a senario in Arab countries: There will be a big tandoor in every hospital.  Newborns whose blood test is positive for homosexuality are placed right in the oven. 

 

Robert Pool, Science, New Series "Evidence for Homosexuality Gene" Vol. 261, No. 5119 (Jul. 16, 1993), pp. 291-292.

 

What are going to present about transgender operation in Iran?  Believe me, with such a economic disorder in Iran all men are willing to undergo sex change and become a sex worker.

"Everyone will give more when they feel appreciated."                        No Safe Place, Deborah Ellis


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

ROOG jaan

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

Please asking Soroush about decency is like asking a pig about being clean. The idea is alien to him and his sick twisted mind. This creature should be put on display in a zoo as an example of how low a human will devolve.

When I read "nadanad va nadanad ke nadanad" I think of this guy. He really think of himself as a "prominent Iranian thinker". What a joke


religionoutofgovernment

Someone needs to ask him

by religionoutofgovernment on

Someone needs to ask him about pedophelia! It was commited by Mohammad when at age 53 had sex with a 9 year old girl. Now, it is considered taboo. How does he explain this shift based on his theory of Akhlagh vs Hoghoogh?? Was pedophelia OK based on Akhlagh? His arguement is garbage. The simple explanation is found in the conflict between human social development and static religious views. This soical development has brought us human rights, equality of races, women's rights, rights of children and rights of homosexuals. Along the way, humanity has had to fight static religious beliefs to make this progress. This is very similar to human scientific progress which has also progress despite static religious views. This guy's argument is not consistent with any logic or reason. Why would anyone invite him to a university for a talk is beyond me.


Siavash300

For VPK, D.K and Simorgh information

by Siavash300 on

During shah days, hotel Marmar located on Takht e Jamsheed street in Tehran had a gay bar that homosexuals had been gathered over there on the weekends. The place became more and more popular by late 70's. Iran was on the way to be very much like European countries which individual right, human dignity of any one, regardless of their sexual orientation, to be respected. I am sure once crown Reza Pahlavi takes the office we won't have any problem in many areas including homosexualtiy.


Anonymous Observer

Simorgh jaan - These sex change operations are another

by Anonymous Observer on

example of IR fascism.  They guilt, push and force homosexuals into having sex change operations just to prove that homosexuality is a disease that can be "cured," with the "cure" being the sex change operation. So, don't buy into that propaganda.

Look my friend, homosexuality has been a part of human existence since there have been humans on this planet.  We are complex creatures with complex emotions that cannot be pigeonholed in neat little boxes.  There are variations in everything that makes us human.  Homosexuality is part of what a person is made of, and in my opinion, it is the next frontier in human rights struggle around the world.  It should be an absolute non-issue when it comes to our dealings with other people.  Hopefully, some day, we will learn to look beyond these petty issues and see and judge people for the "content of their character" as a famous person once said.  


Darius Kadivar

VPK jan I think you did not understand my Point

by Darius Kadivar on

My argument was not aimed at endorsing Simorg's views on Homosexuality or Incest ...

  

My point was to highlight the disproportional power of corporate medias in the West in shaping public opinion on a range of issues of public interest by "formatting" that opinion for global consumption and claiming that it corresponds to how the « majority » views it when in Fact it doesn’t.

 

 

I don’t share Simorg or Souroush’s Conclusions, I do however believe that Simorg does make a valid point when he argues that one has to distinguish between what society deems as  « normal » and what it in effect « natural ».

 

Now What he draws as a personal conclusion  based on that initial observation is his choice not mine. But that does not diminish the pertinence of a given observation.

 

Words Matter regardless of the intention of the person pronouncing them.

 

« Normality » derives from a « Norm ».

 

Marriage for instance is a Norm in many Western Societies deemed « civilized » yet other countries and civilizations consider Polygamy as a norm. So which norm is normal ? Who defines a normal behavior and based on what legitimacy ? A Deemed Universal one drafted for us by some Western Scholar ?

 

What may work in a Western Society may prove fatal in a different cultural environment.

 

Some societies accept certain behaviors while others don’t due to cultural and religious taboos.

 

For example Homosexuality is a « Natural » Behavior because it is a proved fact that it exists in nature and in the Animal World also.

 

It is in no way a perversion as Simorg or Soroush seem to suggest it here but it is in no way a norm either.

 

 

Yet it is scientifically proven that all men and women have homosexual thoughts at different levels and stages of life because we have hormones and chromosomes which shape up an individual as a sexual being. But there is a distinction between having homosexual thoughts and homosexual desires which can be more or less pronounced depending on the individual or more or less suppressed by social behaviors imposed upon us.

 

So ultimately it boils down to how society accepts or not a given behavior and that is where indeed intellectuals and civil society can work towards changing things for the better and turning what is at best deemed as merely a « natural « behavior into a deemed « normal » behavior by society at large.

 

In short working towards creating a more tolerent society.

 

In Morocco for instance very recently a Young woman commited suicide after being raped.

 

The guy who raped her was not convicted because according to an obsolete law he was deemed not guilty because he had proposed mariage subsequently to the rape incident and that the girl’s parents accepted it as a convenient way to protect the honor of the girl and therefore family.

 

The suicide has since triggered a public outcry spearheaded by not just by women organizations but also several ministers deemed religious who believe that the law should be dropped all together so that victims of rape can défend themselves and hence allow the conviction of the rapist.

 

But to claim that all societies are ready for such radical changes is as absurd as the one which claims all societies are ready for democracy and that it can be achieved without some form of sacrifice or without the slightest collatéral damage.

 

All Change requires some form of sacrifice for there is always a price to pay ( which is not necessarily nor always a bloody one) .

 

So the real question is whether society at large is ready to pay the price ? The answer to such a question can only be a Collective one regardless of what individuals may think in private or amongst a given minority.

 

 

Now I disagree with Simorg and Soroush that Iranians cannot and should not accept Homosexual behavior as a normal one. I think Iranian society is actually far more open with such issues than they were even during the Shah’s time because the Iranian youth who shape the majority of the population in Iran are far more aware about lifestyles and rights in other corners of the world and can make informed choices for themselves and their fellow compatriots if they were given that choice. As such I am not worried about Gay Rights in a Post IRI Iran no more than I am about the rights of other minorities.

 

But I am concerned about the way Corporate Medias particulalry in the West try to shape and influence people through manipulation and mind games.

 

 

The example I gave of CNN's Jim Clancy's biased report is just  one amongst hundreds of others which are fed to us and other citizens of the world on a daily basis but which get across unnoticed and when they do they are hardly denounced as an attempt to manipulate public opinion.

 

That to me is unethical journalism.

 

No matter how controversial an issue, one cannot merely shape an opinion based on emotional outbursts.

 

I don't share Simorg or Soroush's views, I just claim you cannot dismiss it merely on moral or moralistic grounds. Their deemed "moral" or "immoral" arguments are as valid in weight as that of a deemed openminded western educated professor.

 

Why ? Because the issue here is not about drawing a line between what we consider as a moral assessment and an immoral one or between what we consider as "natural" or "unnatural" but about Rights.

 

Rights are defined by Laws created by Society. So ultimately it is about how society collectively copes with these laws whether they are right or wrong or whether they need indeed to evolve in order to fit the standards of far more progressive societies deemed more « Advanced ».

 

But beyond individual behaviors and mindsets, change in any given society requires not only an awareness of what is available as possible options but more importantly of a collective maturity to digest it and handle it in a way that it won’t hurt the society at large. This is true whether it concerns Sex or Democracy or Human Rights in general.

 

If the answer to such issues were as simple then there would never be revolutions, wars and we would not have such debates anyway.

 

I merely claim I don't have the answer or if I did then it has to be debated by the Society at large before drawing the right conclusion. Otherwise we are merely cloaking our personal insecurities  with our own personal desires and self righteous opinion.

 

As such my point goes beyond the issue of Homosexuality or Sourosh's backward mindset. 

 

Hope it clarifies the issue

 

Best,

 

DK


Simorgh5555

Transgenders is an

by Simorgh5555 on

Transgenders is an altogether different topic altogether. Bizarrely enough it is quite lawful to have a sex change in Iran. Aparently, Khomeini was not opposed to it and even provided an Islamic justification for it which was that that whatever is not Haram is Halal. I am not sure what the take of other Muslim scholars are about this though. Sex change and cross changes are indeed legal in Iran provided that the person makes a decision as to whether he is a man or a woman. He cannot be both. Not sure if youguys have seen this but this is a great documentary on transexuals in Iran broadcasted on British terrestrial TV.


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

Readers

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

I do not care what any person thinks about gay people. However I support equal rights for all people and oppose all discrimination. Dear DK: I don't see anything relative about human right to nondiscrimination.

Regarding "condone" I don't know what that is supposed to mean. People have a right to chose their friends and are free to think what they want. If someone does not want gay friends: fine. If they want to think it is "unnatural": fine. Personally I think bigotry is unnatural. I would take Fereydoon Farrokzad or Hoveyda over Soroush any day. And I find Soroush is far more unnatural as well as plain out an evil man. 

I know it takes a lot to face our bigotry and overcome it. But that is the way to  become a better person.

 

 


Siavash300

Homosexuality is common practice among mullahs in Fayzeyeh

by Siavash300 on

It is very common in Fayzeyeh Qum (seminary for mullahs)  among shia clergies. Unlike shahs of sunset that glorifies and dignifies homosexuality, in mullah's community, it has been conceptualized as a very "premitive" and "barbaric style". As VPK mentioned, among shia clergies, homosexuality practices most of comingled with rape most of the time, without mutual consent or without any romantic aspect of the intimacy. It is a hash hash culture.  


Darius Kadivar

FYI/ transsexual techno-rapper takes Angola by storm

by Darius Kadivar on


Simorg and VPK all is Relative ...

 

 

'Breaking taboos' (bbc, Video)

Louise Redvers writes:  

"The transsexual techno-rapper taking Angola by storm


 

She is bold, she is bright, she is beautiful and she is taking Angola by storm. Not bad for a transsexual in a Catholic African country where homosexuality is illegal and punishable by hard labour. "




 


Simorgh5555

VPK

by Simorgh5555 on

I never said I hated homosexuals. On the contrary, there are great people who are homosexuals. Take the great playwright and author Stephen Fry, Tchaikovsky, Fredrico Garcia Lorca, David Starky and our own late great but lovable Iranian gay lord (I mean that as a term of endearment) Freddie Mercury. 

I see homosexuality as a flaw in human nature. It has nothing to do with hate. Every person has a flaw or vice. JFK was a womaniser, Elvis was a drug abuser, Bob Marley smoked weed and Bill Clinton 'smoked cigars' with Monika Lewinsky (but he didn't inhale!) in the oval office.

I personally couldn't care what people do in their private life-for all I know my co-worker could be a gay, prostitute, cross-dresser or having sexual relations with their next of kin. Same difference. I won't ask and please don't tell. What happened to good old discretion? 

However, what you are advocating is for me to condone their behaviour and accept it as being normal. It isn't. It never has been. It won't be as far as Iranians are concerned.  


Farfromheaven2002

Iranians are not homophobic.

by Farfromheaven2002 on

They only like quiet time and warm hands. They don't like to talk about it. Please leave them alone. It's too much expectation from a culture where the left neighbor always has a slut girl and right one has a slut boy. 

"Everyone will give more when they feel appreciated."                            No Safe Place, Deborah Ellis


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

Response part B

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

What I see as biggest reason for homophobia is the need to hate.People attempt to improve self image by putting others people down. They say something: you are <something> and I am not; hence I am better.

This is really pathetic because a good person shines on her or his own. Not by kicking other people. In history this need has been the basis of repression of many people including:

  • Religious minorities: Jews by Nazi and others. Muslims; Zoroastrians; you name it.
  • Racial minorities: Blacks being the most obvious but also others.
  • Women: I remember years ago Tofigh had a "joke" that implies women are so inferior to men. I did not like it when I was 10 and I don't like it now.
  • Then it was nerds and geeks; well until the dot com boom and suddenly they became cool. Showing the utter hypocrisy of the people making fun of them.
  • People who speak a different language; from Spanish to Chinese or whatever it may.
  • And of course the topic of this blog which is gay people. I used to be homophobic due to the garbage stuffed in my head. It was only after getting to know openly gay people I realized how wrong I had been.

Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

Why all the

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

Dear DK: In my view Simorgh does not have a point. I read your post and saw no justification for his or her point. Here it is:

Its an exploration of hypocricy and conformity to accept a form of human behaviour which up to very recently had been criminalised. 

This is pure nonsense as it was only a few decades ago that interracial marriage was illegal in parts of the world. Not just that but a black was not even allowed to go to the same bathroom. By Simorgh's logic it is hypocrisy to accept a black person going to a while toilet. I am not buying this no matter how it is put. It is pure bigotry no matter how it is put. 

Regarding rules: There are many nations; and states with different rules and governments. What is important is to be fair and treat humans without bigotry. Homophobia is bigotry and I oppose it regardless of rules.