Current Events

One can disagree with Simorgh5555 but he does have a point

I personally don't agree that Homosexuality and incest let alone child abuse ( better known as pedophilia) fall into the same category but one can legitimately question if all societies can cope with the rapid pace of acceptance of certain sexual practices or behaviors deemed in the west as "normal" today while they are often deemed rightly or wrongly as "deviations" in many countries across the world due to cultural taboos ( not just religious) inherent to a given society.

'Sodomy' like 'Fellatio' for instance are not aimed at procreation yet both can and are practiced equally by homosexual and heterosexual couples and deemed rightly or wrongly as part of the sexual pleasures people can share or not based on their exposure to such realities.

What can be seen as a pleasure will be seen as "hurtful" or "dirty" by another so how can anyone objectively draw a line between "normal" and "abnormal" let alone "natural" and "unnatural" behaviors ?

On the otherhand there is a tendency to want to Format certain practices as universally accepted when they are not. This is not limited to sexuality either.  

And that is when an opinion becomes an ideology in the way let's say at some point Women Lib Organizations in the 70's became crusaders of a cause they claimed was universally accepted by all women but ended by becoming totalitarian instruments of the politically ambitions of a minor few frustrated divorcees or victimes of rape or even lesbians wishing to impose their own views on everyone else. When in all fairness their duty was first and foremost supposed to have been towards their gender at large.

Otherwise they become as totalitarian in their mindsets as Macho Men who want to deny the slightest feminity in a man's character which exists in every individual male or female and vice versa. 

Again I don't want to generalize but merely pointing to "some" and not all "organizations" many of whom I am sure are sincere in what they advocate for their constituency. 

Just to give an example I watched CNN's correspondent Jim Clancy one day reporting on Elton John's child born to a surrogate mother. Elton John and his companion whom he married quite legally in America I believe were therefore considered as the baby's legal "parents". 

Now CNN's Jim Clancy subtly tried to suggest that was was controversial about Elton John's parenthood was not the fact that he was a homosexual but that he was deemed too old to father a child ...

I Found Clancy's comments as the summit of hypocrisy knowing that his audience is not merely American or European but that CNN is aired worldwide.

irrelevant of the fact that I believe that Gay rights need to be respected on an individual level but I found Clancy's observations were  intellectually dishonest aimed at presenting this 'parenthood' as a universally accepted "norm" knowing it is far from accepted even in many democratic countries

This only shows the power of Corporated medias and their gurus like Ted Turner. Spoiled Rich individuals totally out of touch with the reality of everyday life but who wish to lecture everyone on Moral grounds by defining a Politically correct and Formatted Moral standard only shared by a minor few but packaged as if it is universally accepted.

If I find the youtube link to his report I will post it here but I was only able to fine a twitter message but which doesn't truly translate what he said in his report:

On a different note the same Clancy reported on the British Sailors who were arrested by Iranian Sea Guards a few years ago for illegally crossing into Iranian waters in the Persian Gulf. An incident which at the time triggered the wrath of Tony Blair who was trying to use that incident to accuse Iran of "terrorism" ...

Clancy had the same hypocritical stance as if Iran was breaking the rules and Not Britain.

This only shows the undemocratic nature of Corporate Medias which air via satellite and vehicle a set of "values" and "opinions" and blunt "observations" without ever questioning if they are speaking on behalf of a fully accepted reality or on the contrary that they are merely beaming much of their own set of self righteous value systems into family homes worldwide without ever asking themselves if they have any "moral" legitimacy to do so ?

Now this shows that the debate goes beyond the issue of Homosexual rights but can be applied to other issues of global concern or interest.

Even Regardless of the professional qualification of those who work in these Corporate Media Networks ...

I say this all the more comfortably that I disagree with Soroush's backward mindset as well as his school of thought in general and particularly in the above clip.

My Humble Opinion,

DK 

Recommended Film: Dr. Kinsey starring Liam Neeson: 

FYI/German incest couple lose European Court case

A brother and sister from Germany, who had an incestuous relationship and claimed the right to a family life, lose their case at the European Court of Human Rights.

homosexuality is largely practiced in religeous schools

Homosexuality is practiced between mullahs and they show it by wearing yellow nalein ( flip flap).

ازیک روشنفکر

ازیک روشنفکر دینی چه انتظار دیگه ای میشه داشت؟

کار روشنفکر دینی سفسطه و مغلطه و توجیه وبه قول تندروهای دینی جرح و تعدیل احکام شرعی و دینی و مذهبیه. . 

شخصا همجنسگراهایی رو دیدم که رفتار و کردارشون از غیرهمجنسگراها بسیار طبیعی تر و پسندیده ترهست و انسان هایی به معنای واقعی هستند.

فکرکنم مسائل شخصی و خصوصی هرکی به خودش مربوطه! تا جایی که مزاحمت و آزاری برای بقیه بوجود نیاره. 

قضیه همجنسگرایی سالهاست که بین قشر تحصیلکرده و روشنفکرغرب حل شده و فقط افراد کم سواد و متعصبین مذهبی درجامعه غرب با این مساله مشکل دارند!ا

Many civil rights

and abolishion advocates were white. Good people demand justice for all.

Sexual orientation.

I don’t understand why people who participate in discussion about homosexuality immediately asking if I am a homosexual.

a)      Women right advocates are also men.  Similarly, homosexual advocates could be heterosexuals who also support human rights.  They also support right of other creatures who have no way to defend themselves like animals.

b)      I don’t indicate my sexual orientation because I really don’t want people stick their hands on my pants with an excuse of an intellectual discussion.

Simorgh

You are well aware that homophobics take consultation not gay men. Actually, any one could take counselling if he needs or wants to.  I am not against professionalism. 

You brought up a valid subject: hygiene. Please don't rely only on your experience in a restroom to investigate people who are not like you. You could read a few pages of a microbiology text book to compare the hygiene in homosexual vs. heterosexual sex. Clearly, you can compare the hygiene in intestinal tracts with women’s reproduction organs.  All I want to say is that nature is not always clean and sacred.  Again, please distance your moral from human biology.

BTW, Mussolini killed lots of homosexuals.

لطفآ خیلی سخت نگیرین و به خودتون فشار نیارین

I heard women in Gom are willing to undergo sex change if a ripped-abs gay man proposes for marriage. 

Any way, there are 2 scenarios in Iranian courts about homosexuals:

a)      If two lesbians are arrested, they could defend themselves that they had missed each other so much that's why the kissing was so deep.  They didn’t want to wrinkle their clothing that’s why they had to take off them.  They could dare the judge to show a quote from Quaran if any questions about fingering was asked.  

b)      If two men are arrested, they could say they saw the spirit of their girl friend on the mirror, then in the man’s body.  They became ensure about their proper choice after the sex because they learned their girl friend was hidden in a body of the man.

After the positive verdict they have to be very careful not to dance.  Only individuals who have been in Khordadian’s class are allowed to dance.

Imam-e Zaman

I agree. To talk about homosexuality is a taboo. In Iran, the Achaemenids practised incest and therefore, from a philosophical point of view, if you accept the one why not the other? From the point of view of Westerners most Iranians and indeed Muslims are sub-producrts of incestuous relationships if we consider marriage between first cousins as being 'incest'. 

Why can so-called intellectuals not have a sensible mature discussion on this practice?  

This has nothing to do with throwing gays off cliffs or even being anti-gay. Its an exploration of hypocricy and conformity to accept a form of human behaviour which up to very recently had been criminalised.

Not bad!

I think his response is reasonable given his position as a religious intellectual. As a matter of fact this is the most open-minded statement that I have heard from him in a long time. He says that there is a fundamental conflict between rights and ethics and the boundaries of rights have consistently infringed on the domain of ethics. He is right to express his bewilderment. Remember that he is a religious man. Put the same question to any western religious intellectual and see if you can get a more enlightened response. Several years ago I attended a talk by him which revolved about the causes of backwardness in the Islamic societies. He talked for two hours and at the end no one understood what the speaker really believed to be the main factor. Compared to that speech I think he has come a long way.

Farfromheaven2002

 Your argument is like saying Mussolini was a great man because he made the railway trains run on time. 

And the same should extend to couples practicing incest.

Would you mind if your sibling marries a cousin and enters into a consentual relationship with his stepbrother or stepsister?

The right of privacy and choice of sexual partner must extend to consanguine/next of kin marriages.

Apart from anything else consider the hygeine aspect of it. I am sorry this sounds distasteful but  do you not think it is entirely abhorrent for one man to place his genitals into the rectum of another man where he passes excrement? Do you think we should teach children that this form of depraved conduct is an act of love? 

This is what I mean. If you are gay then please seek counselling.  

Simorgh

Nobody expects you to encourage homosexuality as long as you stop promoting your morality and disgust towards other men because of the factors built your own life style including morality.  Why don’t talk about your own self?  Why don’t you entertain us with your sexual or loving habits in a bed?  Have you ever had any?  Or, it doesn’t correlate with your morality and disgust?  Does it? 

Nobody needs your

approval to be gay or not; to be bisexual or hetero or to change their minds. Here is my rule for all: mind your own *** business. Why do some think that people want their approval? You don't matter!

If you are worried about human race: don't. We got plenty of over population so 5 or 20 or 20% gay population does not matter. Besides I know gay people with kids. Go worry about your own problems and stop blaming; harassing and murdering them.

The men I know who are most anti-gay are divided in two groups. 1) They are gay themselves but won't admit it and are filled with self hate. 2) Men who are so unsure of their own manhood to be threatened.

Life Style:Journal of Mariage and Family

A life style of a homosexual couples is similar to heterosexual couples.  They could have different habits of feed consumption, dress and social activities.However, homosexual parents especially lesbian parents are more caring and intelegent in parenthood. Timothy J. Biblarz and Evren Savci, Journal of Mariage and Family, DOI:10.1111/j.1741-3737.2010.00714.x

Farfromheaven2002

Yes, stop it right now and seek counselling. If you are born Gay, then get help. If you don't want to, that's equally fine with me. I have nothing against you and it makes no difference what you do in your private life, hence why I equate homosexuality with incest. However, don't think that we are going to promote to generations of Iranians your undesirable way of life. Don't think that in a post-Islamic Republic Iran we are going to subject children to child cruelty and force upon them two fathers and two mothers. 

Thankfully, the majority of Iranians are homophobic. Thank God for that.  

Simorgh non facts

It is hard to believe in the 21st century Simorgh writes this stuff. Posts on IC paint a depressing image of many of the IC posters.

I am not suggestting to kill homosexuals and neither am I suggestting that they should be subjected to acts of violence. 

How generous; I am sure your kindness will be rewarded.

Homosexuality is not just anti-Islamic -which I couldn't care less about, it is also profoundly anti-Iranian.

Homosexuality being anti-Iranian? Are you on the same planet as the rest of us? Digging up some 2000 year old partially remaining text is hardly a 'fact". It is you prejudice and that is all. 

Of homosexuality.......

.........will I lose another ID just by calling homosexuality a mental confusion between the distinct functions of digestive system and reproduction system?

Can you be "man" enough this time, and read me my last rites before beheading me?

Deemed the quintessential Iranian Intellectual by Tariq Ramadan

Reproduction system.

Have you ever thought why heterosexuals are not compared with incest or animals since they resemble more similarities including reproduction capability?

I agree with Simorgh that "people are born" as fabulous, strong and healthy "homosexuals".  They are who they are, and they could discover themselves when there is a proper education starting in one's childhood.  I don't think that parents want to have a confused son or daughter so it's better to educate every child the chance of being homosexuals.  If you are a homosexual and have sex with women Stop it right now.  It will damage your psychology and physiology extremely. 

Nice try Simorgh.  Please expand the subject. 

Homosexuality- The Facts

There are two distinct issues. The first is tolerance of homosexuality which I think no one will object to regardless of their personal beliefs. The second is the active encouragement and promotion of a homosexual lifestyle through same sex adoptions and teaching this undesirable human behaviour to school children as if it is perfectly normal to have two fathers or two mothers. 

I am not suggestting to kill homosexuals and neither am I suggestting that they should be subjected to acts of violence. I am talking about their behaviour which they should seek counselling for.  

I point blank refuse with propaganda designed to force conformity of beliefs on a lifestyle which up to fifty years ago was considered criminal and against both nature and religion. In the UK, where I live, homoexuality was criminalised until 1967 and then through successful campaigning among gay rights group the age of consent to gay sex was brought down from 21 to 16. Gay campaigners through the media and celebrity pop culture have manufactured consent (as Chomsky would call it) and all of a sudden a choice of lifestyle practised by a minority of people and through thousands of years viewed to be abhorrent is now acceptable and that those who are opposed to it are "sick" and "prejudiced and hateful".

The propaganda that homosexualuty was a common practice in acient Greece and Sparatns  has also been dismissed as complete falsehoods by non-Greek reformist historians  who cannot even speak, read or write Greek and mistaken Entruscan culture with ancient Greek. Much of the interpretation of platonic love has been interpreted as being homosexuals by only one historian. 

Homosexuality is not just anti-Islamic -which I couldn't care less about, it is also profoundly anti-Iranian.  

Touraj Daryaee, in 'Sassanian Persia' (Page 63) writes that homosexuality or kun-marzih (sodomy) was a sin and punishable by death. Enacted laws and books such as Meonog Xerad state that:

"The evil Ahreman created the demons and deceiving ones and the other evil offsprings  through the act of self-sodomy",

According to Daryaee, Aghreman is seen as a homosexual/sodomite and there are also references in the eighth book of Denkard which refer to homosexuality as a sin worthy of death. It even designates homosexuals into those with immoral desires, passive sodomites and aggressive sodomites.

According to Daryaee, In the Middle Persian book of Arda Wiraz Namag, which is an equivalent of the Dante's Inferno, Wiraz, the protagonist ventures into hell and sees 'a man is being punished by snakes entering into his anus and coming out of his mouth. The Angels tells him that the reason for his punishment is that: "this is the soul of that wicked man who committed sodomy in the world and allowed a man over himself".

Over on the next page,64,  "next of kin marriages" (Xwedadah), or incest,  was even accepted. Daryee notes, 'We have evidence from the Achaemenid period which suggests that this was a common practice among the royal family, but there is less evidence for it among the population'. 'The carrying out of Incest' by the Achaemenids in order to keep the royal blood pure was also confirmed in Ancient Persia by Josef Weisehofer. Cambyes is known to have married two of his sisters and this practice is seen as perfectly common place among the aristocracy. 

Also, if you consider incest to be marriages between first cousins as some of those in the West see it, then most Iranians are technically off-springs of incestuous relationships. I say homosexuality and incest are equally abhorrent and therefore Sourosh's comparison is totally valid. 

So you see, if homosexuality is seen as acceptable then why not sex within marriage? :) Tomorrow, the world of celebrity pop culture will witness its first singer, who declares to the world that he or she is having a sexual relationship with a sibling and the media, followed by an impressionable and shallow public will defend them and sing their praise. Then the practise will be more common and 'incest'  lobbying groups will picket outside Parliament or Congress demaning equal rights for incest couples. A law will be passed enshrining civil liberties for incest couples and users on Iranian.com will demand equal rights for brothers and sisters having sex in Iran. That is the goddamn truth and you know it. 

THINK FOR YOUSELF  

A Traitor's View!

Any value to it?

Soroush

is a true religious fanatic and a moronic pseudo intellectual. There is nothing reformist about him unless you consider purging the universities reformist. His life work has been a sorry attempt to excuse and promote Islamism. 

Now he is out to victimize homosexuals and justify hatred against them. My response is that Soroush should be working on his own legal defense. Not out there attacking people who never did him any harm. But an Islamic mindless fanatic has no such ability. 

Regarding us being ready that is not his job to decide. Homosexuality has been discussed in our literature including some famous poets for centuries. Plus it is practiced openly among his masters in Gom. The difference is that his masters practice forced sex aka rape while he condemns consensual acts of love between adults. The conclusion is: an Islamic fanatic approves of gay rape but disapproves of gay love between adults. No surprise that he prefers rape to love after all it is all he knows or did.

Now you know why Putin's Russia is Iran's Best ally ...

Russia: Gay rights activists arrested (cnn)

• A controversial law came into effect last month in the city of St. Petersburg
• It bans the "promotion of homosexuality" to minors
• Activists say the legislation makes any mention of homosexuality illegal
• The United States and European Union have voiced concern over the legislation

he's a reformist- not a progressive

he is a true reformist and that's why he began with the history of human rights and the law. I think what he tried to say is that we are not there yet with homosexual rights...cause we are not even offering basic righst to women, to intellectuals,...we need to go through a process before we understand homosexuality to begin with.

We speak about homosexuality because of the influence of living in abroad. None of us would consider them as having equal rights if we were still living in Iran. 

.........

the acceptance of same sex rights as the couple.

private life means private  period.

Maziar

YOU.

Maybe, you are an expert in understanding relationships among father and daughter or sister and brother.  Maybe, you are an expert in subjects of raping, molestation and sex with animal.  But, you do certainly have no knowledge/experience to talk about homosexuality as a scientific or humanity subject.

Give me a single example that IC readers believe that you are a “normal” person.  You are so bewildered in the subject of homosexuality.  I'd suggest you to experience being with a man rather than befuddling yourself with a man. 

Hint: Please remember that being an ass-tight doesn’t automatically make one "normal". 

Maziar

مازیار

با عرض معذرت من متوجه منظور شما نشدم. من بله چی؟ کدوم نکته در فرهنگ ایرانی جایی ندارد؟

...#@$%?

Hajj khanoom !

pas shumam baale .

that concept has no place in Iranian culture and mentality

how ever    what ever happens in vegas   should stay in vegas.

In favor of FREE IRAN   but not avec modernite cultural!

Maziar

Soroush an idiot

Why would anyone pay attention to this jerk is beyond me. Soroush is a rotten criminal who should be reviled for his actions in the "cultural revolution". He is a monster with stone age ideas.

In the modern world his ideas are a a reminder of the past. With an-tellectuals like him no wonder the revolution turned out this way. His place is on trial for crimes against the Iranian people not spewing more of his idiotic mindless garbage.

One additional thing. "Soroush" is a fine ancient word. Having this creature use this fine name is an insult to the name. He made so many good people suffer and is still working on making more victims.

جهانشاه عزیز

رابطه "اینسست " با افراد خردسال مجازات دارد ولی اگر هر دو بالغ باشند،  این امر در کشورهای اروپایی و آمریکا  غیر قانونی نیست ولی بسیار تهوع آور است (از نظر من)! 

من به سخنان سروش گوش کردم . او به عنوان فرد مذهبی موضع متعادلی در قبال همجنس گرایی دارد. او اخلاق، مذهب و قانون را از یکدیگر جدا کرد. یک جریان مثل خیانت در ازدواج و یا رابطه با افراد نزدیک فامیل غیراخلاقی و ضد مذهبی است ولی غیر قانونی نیست و کسی به زندان نمیرود. صرف نظر از مذهب و یا اخلاق، هم جنس گرایی نیز می تواند قانونی گردد .

پس باید بر جدایی مذهب و قانون تاکید کرد و نه افراد مذهبی را  مجبوربه قبول قضیه همجنس گرایی.