Abarmard

I go back to my statement

I go back to my statement that IRI code of behaviour is very much like the way original Islamic invaders behaved, that is where they get their que, and they rule by fear which actually in political science is a more resource hungry way of ruling people.

Precisely. The inspiration for IRI comes from the original colonizer of Iran.

Dear everyone who added things since I went to watch a movie!

Let us not go off tangent, and go back to Abarmard's Blog.

We did not start by discussing if Iranians, Americans or Christian clergy were tyranical, or unethical did we?

The title of the Blog is power of IRI and we had a quote that Alexander was advised that in order to rule the persian Empire he needs to put incompenent people in charge and make worthy individuals irrelevent, kill intellectuals, burn books, make the competent flee etc. etc.

Did IRI use Alexnder, pre Islam Iranians, Americans, chinese, Russians, or Germans as their template for their list of atrocities?

No!

IRI leaders are experts on Islam, they know it better than all of us and find test cases in origin of Islam to justify their action.

These test cases do not have to be in Quoran, they can be Hadith or behaviour of one the Imams.

Again I repeat Not Alexander! but the prophet or one of the Imams!

Did Alexander do the same? No, Historical evidence shows that although he had a lust for building an Empire, he had enough sense that you should respect people's traditions and he was not an idealogy nutcase so he was happy to respect other traditions as long as it kept his Empire intact.

Are there horrible, acts by the rest of humanity? Yes, plenty, but specific to the Blog and what we started from I go back to my statement that IRI code of behaviour is very much like the way original Islamic invaders behaved, that is where they get their que, and they rule by fear which actually in political science is a more resource hungry way of ruling people.

If you have a genuine interest in this subject rather than a 5 minute opinion venting then I suggest you read Niccolò Machiavelli's "The Prince" where all power models have been discussed.

Ah, beloved ayatollah xerox

Scathing rebuttle, genius<<End Sarcasm

When the prophet came to

When the prophet came to Iran, he meant to establish a equal system based on common language, religion, currency. Some of his plans did not work.
Important fact is that Iranians hated Alexander the little, but loved prophet Muhammad and the entire society including the military joined the Islamic uprising. After the Islamic establishment in Iran, Iran moved to be a powerful Islamic State with science, technology and military at her disposal. With establishment of school system, most newly founded middle class were able to read and write, practice law and attend social movements that let to a higher and more advance society. Something that never existed during the corrupt and dictatorial kingdom of Iran.

And you call me 'shoot ali'?? LOL

Long live reforms- RE: Ramin

We will get rid of the conservatives and replace all of them with moderates. Long live reform.

Ramin, when Islam came to Iran, it brought with it a giant scholarly thinking because of the creation of public schools. Before that only the kings were educated. Historically, besides the atrocities permitted by the time, anywhere any place on earth, Islam brought equality, science, thought process, law and order to the common people. It improved the life of the Iranian people.
What you brag about is only for the kings, the common person was sick of the government and Shah's of the time. You are mistaking greatly about the history. Alexander destroyed Iran but he was not a ruler. Others on the other hand came to rule. Alexander as a general, killed and left the affairs to the hand of those who supposedly could. When he attack Iran, Iran was culturally as superior as his nation, and he felt remorse for his atrocities. Yet Islam is another story. When the prophet came to Iran, he meant to establish a equal system based on common language, religion, currency. Some of his plans did not work.
Important fact is that Iranians hated Alexander the little, but loved prophet Muhammad and the entire society including the military joined the Islamic uprising. After the Islamic establishment in Iran, Iran moved to be a powerful Islamic State with science, technology and military at her disposal. With establishment of school system, most newly founded middle class were able to read and write, practice law and attend social movements that let to a higher and more advance society. Something that never existed during the corrupt and dictatorial kingdom of Iran.

Any questions?

Dear Tork

I think you missed the point.Do you consider Mehdi Bazargan and all

those 1979 revolutionaries( who considered themselves as great patriots and intellect) Arabs? 

We keep blaming Arabs and American and British and Russian but we never realise it is us who let them in.We are the gate keeper,

we are the guilty ones.

You can say Payandeh Iran, Iran sarzamine honar and all those 

exciting things but at the end of the day , we are still bunch of

emotional fools and our ignorance stops  us from reaching our goals.

We let the Mullah in, any thing  else is a BS( excuse my language).

We have to pay much larger price to kick them out, this is just the beginning.

I hope this time we are wiser .

Dear Darius

I'm not defending Alexander, he was a man after conquest and as such he was after building an empire. I am refering to Abarmard's statement and compare it to actual Historical records that exist with regards to the method which he chose in order to maintain a vast Empire. You are welcome to read machiavelli's "The prince" which has been standard text book of political philosophy for hundereds of years yourself! Otherwise being Iranian I'm not pleased with any form of conquest of Iran. It was a case of Historical accuracy.

His chosen strategy was more out of a rational realization that you may conquer various nations but if you want to keep the land you must keep the people happy.

There are a lot misleading heresay Iranian statements that were constructed by scholars, it doesn't mean that Historically they were true.

Here is an examples of Historical fallacies that is common amongst our people, this is more recent and not religious based so I hope it makes the point:-

Einstein being called father of atom bomb, Oppenheimer was the father not Einstein.

As to your question: He pushed as far as India becuase he wanted to build as vast an Empire as he could, but this has nothing to do with his method of maintaining such an Empire.

Alexander was Macedonian, he was not greek ( a common misconception of mistaking Hellenic culture with being greek), Empires die for various reasons,  in his case he dies when 32, Empire was divided and his decendents faced the more power military force of Romans, keeping your subjects happy so that they don't revel is not enough, you need to be able to defend your land against powerful enemies.

Yes Christian clergy, more specifiacally the Pope and Cardinals were extremely corrupt, religious zealites who are responsible for a lot of cruelty, but not to us as we never were our subjects, we were conquered by Alexander and Arabs so your statement has no relevence in the context of what we discussed, unless you are arguing that because there were other horrible people that it is OK for Arabs to have been horrible?

Whatever happended in the past is only relevent as a lesson for present, we can't change the past but I related the issue to the current conflicts of power between inheriters of Islamic Khaliphite in Iran i.e. current IRI Government and why we have a cultural conflict.

Sounds familiar

with what has been happening in our beloved IRAN in the past 30 years.

Payandeh IRAN & Iranians 

ramintork, we're not quite lilly whites either...

you sound more like the "American has done no wrong" red necks, than a fair minded observer of history and culture.

If you remove your blinders for a while and consider what the Persian Empire did to the Arabs, Georgians, and what Nader did in India, known as the " Ghateh Aameh Naderi" (the Nadri Massacre), you'll realize that our "humane compassionate values" have been scarcely on display during our history.

The current rulers' despotism, repression and crimes against humanity are all OUR problems and of OUR own making. Blaming others seems to be a mere cop-out. 

Question for Mr.Tork

Could you please explain why Alexander pushed his military force

all the way to India?

What happened to that all Greek Glory?

How about Christians ruling clergy?Did they not execute and persecuted European

by the Bible , ? Where they get their influence from?

Do you see any similarity?

Are we just getting emotional or we accept our ignorance lead us to

where we are now?

thanks

Ramintork: Excellent

Ramintork: Excellent observation. The Greeks did not force their religion and culture on Iran. 'unf said!

This sounds more like Islam?

Unlike the Arabs, Alexander adapted the same policies as the Achaemenid dynasty in respecting the local traditions and religions and he was heavily criticized by his fellow Macedonians for doing so, but later in many ways his Generals who took over did the same, they did not force Hellenic culture but left some Hellenic influence. In places such as Egypt, a few generations after Ptolemy (Alexander's general)  when we read about Cleopatra  we find that she seems more Egyptian than Macedonian.

Machiavelli uses Alexander's conquest of Iran as a test case for his book "The Prince" in that in countries where power is central if you replace the head by your own head and keep things similar you can maintain your conquest.

Our eterernal struggle with Arabs and fruits of Islam have always been about the alienation of their primitive agressive culture and our humane compassionate values and the force used to change our ways and should not be confused with the fight over ethnicity of the ruler. If the Muslim rulers behaved within the Iranian cultural boundaries instead of killing people, enslaving them, forcing them to flee they would perhaps be our rulers today in the same way as the decendents of William the conqueror a duke of Normandy is the ancestor of British Monachs.

IRI has Iranian rulers but the culture is Arab hence the problem, they could come from Mars for all we care, if they respected human values, peace, respect, honesty, freedom we wouldn't have this problem.

Our scholars made up stories of wisdom but allegorically used other characters so as not to offend, so what you are saying applies to the Muslim Arabs and not the Macedonians.

Abamard

Thanks for reminding the history. I’ve also heard this anecdote before. IRI is now applying both solutions: killing, raping and putting A.N. and his cabinet to govern Iranians. There is however a difference with 2200 years ago and that is people now are in majority young, educated and don’t want the regime anymore.