Ali_UK

Nonetheless, I'm glad that

Nonetheless, I'm glad that the road map is increasingly well understood.

You are welcome Darius Jaan

I am just amused by Haaji Ali's manisfesto, his sense of time line and his definition of free elections!! 

Best regards

FR

Farah Jaan You Nailed It !

Well Put !  

LOL

Time travel is not for you Ali - lol

Are trying to be funny or is this for real;

• We should not look to reset the clock to 1979 and try and reform what was then.

• If  we aim for electoral reform and just have free elections to start with, then a lot would just come out the wash.

• I love our homeland ( as I am sure most Iranians do )
  and I do not want to see it knocked back another 30 years ( like
  present day Iraq ).

Your first and last points suggest that you need to study the laws of relativity (perhaps for the first time). In 1979 the clock was set backward by several hundred years and we still have not recovered from that setback. Now you fear from going back 30 years to the setback point!!! By going back to 1979, we are moving forward by several hundred years so get your direction right.

But what am I talking about? You don't want to move forward at all. Your middle comment says it all. Didn't you know that we are in the present mess because there was no free election in 1979. And you want to keep it as it has been so far.

Baba alhagh-o-val ensaaf ke sarbaaz jaanbaaz emaam zamooni - lol. 

FR

MM Is no 1. "freedom of movement"?

(I'm still going through my "natural and civil rights" chapter. )

Oh and something really puzzles me about the US "Life and liberty etc". How can Capital Punishment be justified?

Every fascism is an index of a failed revolution - Walter Benjamin

We have a lot of "know it all" Iranians, so true

It really does become clear if we think about it and read the posts. I know I do it. Maybe it is something special to Iranians.

I don't think talk of the past should hinder the future, personally. There should be even more talk about the past. We just need to understand how to handle it. Learn the lessons!

Q

Q, there's a huge difference bewteen 5 million and 15 million, lol. I'm not even going to ask how YOU know that 5 or 15 million people voted for Ahmedinejad, as I know there are some regime supporters, but they are either the corrupt bazaris, un-educated dahatis, or religous one's, and these people, my desperate friend, are the minority, the very very small minority that are either dying of old age or getting an education and moving away from islamic fanatism. One of the last reports done on Iranians and islam said that less than 20% of Iranians in Tehran go to mosques at all, there's a reason for that, now I'm not gonna be un-fair in a debate like how you usually are, and use one city influenced by the west/America as an example for the whole of Iran, in-fact the truth is that Iranian nationalism is widely accepted in the provinces much more than it is in tehran, like the place I'm from, so You either got people going back to their Iranian/Persian heritage and establishing their identity under that banner rather than islam or you have people following the western/American life-style, Which is just as useless and pointless as the islamic one I might add, infact after the islamists are removed this western/American influence will be the next threat targeted for eradication.

You see, none wants to have anything to do with islam nor these islamists anymore, especially a regime that is so corrupt and filthy. The Iranians abroad who are from every single Iranian city and province are an example of what I'm talking about, and you have 100 thousand or so Iranian youth migrating each year, so don't use the excuse of them being shahi leftovers like how desperate islamists usually do. Further more, you seriously believe that after an Iranian reads and learns about what these Arabs and muslims did to their ancestors and people they're going to stay as muslims, or atleast religous muslims? It would be like a jew becoming a nazi.

As for your moussavi "supporters",  just look at them, most  either have half their hair out, don't dress at all islamic, and the men have western hair style and clothing, if this is your idea of islamists then I don't know what you're smoking, maybe the guido-islamist joint mousavi revolution? You seriously believe people like Neda and others truly supported Mousavi? have you seen her husband talk? They are using him as the final straw, almost like they realized that there is gonna be no change aslong as these islamists are in power and they're not gonna take it anymore. It's 1979 all over again, except this time other groups are using the islamists to gain their goals for a secular and free Iran and not the other way around.

Just one more thing, it would be something if the stance of the Iranians I had met was 50-50, but when you have over 90% of them being anti-regime then it says something. There is a limit.

Nationalism, REAL nationalism, secularism and democracy will be the future of Iran, Mousavi, Ahmadinejad and the islamist symphytizers can cry all they want about it under their burkas.

I love our homeland

• I did say learn from the past and move on ( progress ), I am not trivializing it .

• A violent end to this regime is not good for Iran and Iranians. Our best hope is to fight for our constitution less VF.

• We should not look to reset the clock to 1979 and try and reform what was then.

• If  we aim for electoral reform and just have free elections to start with, then a lot would just come out the wash.

• I love our homeland ( as I am sure most Iranians do ) and I do not want to see it knocked back another 30 years ( like present day Iraq ).

Bankrupt lefties have always

Bankrupt lefties have always good advice for you. Take it.

Ali_UK, AGREED! Just one thing though

Don't loose heart: don't forget that the goings-on on Iranian.com are hardly a reflection of sanity nor literacy.

;)

"...the illiterate of the year 2000 will not be those who
cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and
relearn...."  -Alvin Toffler

Good idea Ali

You are right. We need to come together and build on the existing framework, removing the elements of theocracy, dictatorial rules and exclusivity clauses. Removing the role of VF is the first step.

The problem with quoting Mousavi selectively

Why not quoting the initial paragraphs:

" We are neither affiliated with Americans nor British. We have
neither sent greeting cards for the leaders of any powerful countries
nor are hoping for their assistance. We know that in international
affairs every country is after its interests, and we hate those who
don’t respect the culture and religious and national beliefs of their
nations. It is ludicrous to accuse us of insulting the Qu’ran and Imam
Hossein’s Ashura and of tearing apart the picture of Imam Khomeini.
Obviously if there has been any disrespect on the day of Ashura, we
don’t approve this, but we consider that the worst kind of disrespect
is the murders of innocent people and mourners on the day of Ashura and
in a month [Muharram] in which killing is banned by Islam".

and later:

1. The administration should be held liable in front of the people,
the parliament and the judiciary system so that there would be no
unusual support for the Administration in response to its incompetence
and ineffectiveness. The administration should be held accountable for
all the problems it created for the country. Undoubtedly, if the
administration is competent and right, it will be able to respond to
the people and the parliament, and if it is incompetent and inept, the
Parliament and the judiciary system would confront it based on the
Constitution."

The guy has no problem with the present Constitution and its respectful father Imam Khomeini.

BTW, If killing in the month of Muharram was banned (as Mousavi suggests), Imam Hussein and his entourage would not have killed (according to  the accepted history) hundreds of the Yazid army, would they?!!

Finally Ali, you, me and others are all products of the very past that you seem to be trivialising here. A span of 30 years, even fifty or sixty years are like a blip in a country's history. If the people of former Yugoslavia had addressed and resolved their past differences they wouldn't have run into the savage and genocidal wars of the yoke of communism was lifted off their back only 45 years after they were united into a single country.  

FR

Fred

It's not that they don't know it. They don't want to face it. Because they don't want to face their historic guilt. It's as simple as that. And that's why they won't go anywhere.

Ali Jan, thanks for the excellent blog

It is certainly very sad to see that many of us fail to see the jungle for its trees. In so many cases, so much time and energy gets wasted trying to knock each other while the IRI remains in power. One can easily argue that lack of unity among opposition has been one of the big factor for IRI continuous rule. While they keep killing and imprisoning brave Iranians, we keep arguing about the past and "price of tea in China"

Of course the fact that so many of us know what is best for Iran and that is the only way forward does not help this unity at all either.

Cheers for the great blog

Mehrdad

IF/when VF is removed

• IF/when VF is removed from our constitution , and the constitution is followed to the letter , Iran will have a pretty good start on the road to democracy and people empowerment.

• It is a long road and we will not get there in one , two or ten years , however , me must start somewhere.
•  DK :- have you ever have anything else to say but to refer the readers to RP ?

dudee, interesting, one question for you

First I have to observe that with some people it never fails that whenever their opinion is challenged on certain subjects, the knee jerk response is to attack and associate the challenger personally instead of a logical response. I can't say I'm surprised with you on that account, however, this makes most of what you wrote irrelevant.

I do have one question. What evidence do you have that the majority of people who came out to protest in the aftermath of the election represent your views rather than, for example, the views expressed by Ali_UK in this blog, or those of the reformist leaders whose voters made up almost all the protestors and more ?

Of course if one does not have any real evidence, the next best thing might be to take someone else's life-endangering sacrifice and simply claim it for yourself. This has happened way too many times in the past 31 years.

Lastly, I agree with you, it would be much better if people didn't talk out of their behinds and don't base reality on individual biases or the number of Iranians that one person may have personally met in his lifetime. This is the failure of understanding statistics: representative sampling and probability distributions. This is perceisely why no one can rely on personal anecdotes for anything other than entertainment.

I'm happy for you that you have met "1000s" of Iranians and they have all been very truthful and open with you. But at least 5-15 Million people voted for Ahmadinejad, and have consistently voted conservative. Some of the same voted for Khatami last round just because he was a cleric. That means, someone just as ignorant about statistics, could say, "I have met 5,000,000 people and they all agree with me."

According to real scholars like Ervand Abrahamian as much as 30-35% of Iranians are evangelical Muslims (not just practicing). How can you possibly be this confident about knowing what "Iranians" want to the point of lecturing others about it?

Q

It's also based on Stats and the fact that the anti-regime movement rocked the islamists a few months ago. In the end, from what I've gathered from 99% of the Iranians in my lifetime, they want a democratic government with Iranian goals in mind, in other words a nationalistic one, just like any sane nation.

Nationalism in Iran isn't looked down upon like it is in America or much of the Americanized west, keep  that in mind.

Btw, you're telling me to not base my point of view on what kind of stance the Iranian people want in terms of ruling, and from the thousands upon thousands of Iranians I've known and spoken to through-out my life-time from different parts of Iran too, then noone should ever speak out according to your logic, and again, even stats and actions taken by the Iranian people prove my point of view, now, I highly doubt you would say anything to an islamist or a symphytizer like yourself if they ever said such a thing, which just tells me you're replying out of denial only to sleep better at night.

I really don't get you people. the poaranoia the islamists represent here about their own people and society can be compared to that of a schizophrenic patient, it's quite sad indeed.

dudee, let me guess, you talked to taxi drivers in Iran?

I'm basing my knowledge on what Iranians want from what I've gathered with most Iranians that I've debated with in real life, both in Iran and abroad.

Every Iranian, including people who hold your exact opposite views can say the same thing.

What makes your opinion more valid? If you look at scientific polls, election turnout, or sheer numbers in street demonstrations, you might be closer to the truth, otherwise, personal anecdotes are useless.

Q

I'm basing my knowledge on what Iranians want from what I've gathered with most Iranians that I've debated with in real life, both in Iran and abroad.

Ali Agha: you must be mixing with the wrong Iranians overseas!!

because you say:

"In almost every discussion among Iranians overseas , there is talk of the shah" .

Also make sure you share your theory of "removing outer frame of VF", with khatemi/soroush and other "nationalist/religious intellectuals" on their quarterly shopping visit to London, they'll love it!!!

I know what I want and its summary is below (Iransecular.org)

۱-تمامیت ارضی، استقلال و حاکمیت ملی ایران
۲-احترام به استقلال و تمامیت سایر کشورها و تشویق صلح نزد تمام ملت­ها و کشورها
۳-دولت منتخب مردم، از مردم و برای مردم.
۴-سه قوای مستقل مجریه، مقننه و قضاییه­ با دوره­های محدود و پاسخگویی و شفافیت کامل.
۵-عدم وجود ایدئولوژی رسمی‌ ، مثل دین/مذهب یا عقاید ماورای طبیعی.
۶-جدایی کامل و بدون استثنای دولت از دین در تمامی ساختارهای دولت.
۷-جدایی روحانیون، گروه ها، احزاب و سازمان‌های دینی/مذهبی از ساختار دولت.
۸- آزادی بیان، اطلاعات، مذاهب، باورها ، رسانه ها و تجمع
۹-  برابری امکانات، حقوق اجتماعی و قانونی
۱۰- برابری کامل جنسیتی بدون استثنا 
۱۱-بیگناه شمرده شدن تا اثبات جرم. غیر قانونی بودن زندانی کردن به جرمهای عقیدتی و سیاسی
۱۲- تضمین حقوق قانونی‌ و مدنی تمام شهروندان از نظر انسانی‌، سیاسی، اقتصادی، دینی/مذهبی‌، قومی، اجتماعی و فرهنگی‌، در چهار چوب  قانون اساسی‌
۱۳-حفظ و بهبود محیط زیست و تلاش ملی در نگهداری آن

People know what they want

www.iransecular.org for a full explanation

"With a republic system , Iran has a “potentially” democratic "

"With a republic system , Iran has a “potentially” democratic system"

hear hear.

Or we can change Ammameh with Taj and back again

Irandudee3, I think we can all see the problem

Let me tell you what most Iranians want....

Exactly. That's the problem right there.

Rahgozar, your comment is also refreshing,

Here's another brave and non-extremist viewpoint:

2. The legislation of new and clear election laws in a way that will restore people’s trust in free and fair elections without meddling and interference. This law should ensure the participation of all the people, despite their differences in opinions and views, and should prohibit the biased and partisan interference of the authorities at all levels. The primary parties in the early days of the Revolution can be considered as a model.

3. The release of all political prisoners and restoration of their dignity and honour. I am sure that this move would be interpreted as a strong point for the establishment rather than a weakness….

4. One of the necessities of improvement is the revocation of the ban on press and media and letting closed newspapers publish again. The fear of free media should be eliminated. International experience in this matter should be considered: the expansion of the satellite channels and their growing importance and the decisive influence of this media clearly show the inadequacy of the traditional methods and limitations of national TV and radio channels. Signal jamming and Internet censorship can only be effective for a short time. The only solution is having various free and informed media inside the country. Isn’t it time to turn our eyes back from beyond our borders to domestic political, cultural and social prosperity, a courageous act based on trusting the intellectual and innovative forces of the society?

5. Recognition of people’s rights for having legal demonstrations and forming parties and groups, abiding by the 27th principle of the Constitution. Acting in this matter, ith the wisdom and collaboration of all of the country’s enthusiasts, can replace the battle between the Basij and security forces and the people with an atmosphere of friendship and national affection.

Source: //enduringamerica.com/2010/01/02/iran-documen...

Not only about democracy

Let me tell you what most Iranians want. Apart from the democracy, they want a very nationalistic government that can benefit Iran and it's identity, and always work to furthering Iranian goals, whether they're cultural, economical, or have to do with military.

You know that Iranians want democracy, but only limited democracy and not like the one in the U.s, which is immensely liberal, speak to any Iranian and almost all, EXCEPT the Americanized one's or the islamists, will tell you the same thing.

Further more, it's good to talk about the past since you'll learn things from it and not repeat the same stupid juvenile mistakes again.

Thank you for your refreshing insight

Dear Ali,

 Thank you for being brave enough to offer a viewpoint that is different from those of the two extremist feuding groups on this website. 

I think many of the silent readers including those I know do agree with you. 

Entire IRR/ IRI must go!

IRI /IRR is back ward, barbaric, anti-Iranians, Arabic, Islamists & must go to attain freedom & liberty for the Arian Land, our motherland IRAN.

Payandeh IRAN & True IRANIANS

I suppose it's called ... Winds of Change ... ;0)

Never late to Catch the Train of Change :

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeVcOBHLDyE

LOL

Or make the Right Choice unlike Your Clueless Parents back in '79:

Reza Pahlavi New Book (A TIME OF CHOICE) Q&A With French Media

Recommended Readings:

Winds of Change: The Future of Democracy in Iran (amazon.com)

IRAN l'heure du choix de Reza Pahlavi ( amazon.fr)

Manuel of mayhem

The problem with the Islamist Rapist Republic’s Manuel of rape, murder and mayhem aka IRR “constitution” is not limited to its ridicules medieval absolute lifetime rule of the Jurisprudence or as you put it " outer framework of VF". 

The entire document is exclusionary and leaves its interpretation in the hands of Islamists, a very undemocratic document beyond any hope of rescue.