Amir Parviz for secular monarchy

No theory, Frashogar, only feelings

I loved my old country, I believed in unity in diversity. 

Maybe I was (am) naive but still today I believe the majority of people did not want the war. Unfortunately, we had the leadership that did. Along with, let's say, 25% of the population, disgruntled, unaccomplished and frustrated for various reasons. Church (catholic, orthodox) and mosque, long time kept aside and deprived of power, played their role, too. When they finally came to the forefront, they showed their true and ugly faces.

PS. Somewhat along the line of your comment the other day, ref. Israelis vs Iranians. They didn't do a poll.

Tito

What do you think Tito did right that kept Yugoslavia together, but as soon as he died it look about a decade for everything to unravel? Was it his personality? A unique management style? What did he do right that his successors didn't? Yugoslavians before the '90s saw themselves as Yugoslavians and not as Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, Slovenians, etc., and enjoyed true stability and prosperity during the Tito years. I wonder a lot about this whenever I think of the Balkans and the disintegration of Yugoslavia in the '90s. Any theories?

I hear you, Frashogar

... and agree with most of your comment.

Yet, even if I try to rationalize my mistrust of Russian politics I end up with the same resentment.

Not to mention that troughout the Yugoslav conflict they openly played the Serbian card while in 2000, only a few hours after the fall of Miloshevich (the most responsible of the 3 presidents), Miloshevich' family left for Russia and were subsequently accorded asylum.

As for Tito, contradictory as it may sound, I admire the man. Was a wise politican and a great military strategist. 

Pussy Riot spotlight takes focus off

//rt.com/news/pussy-riot-global-media-spotlight-035/

Irena

East-South Europeans, i.e. former Yugoslavians, never had to worry about Soviet jackboots. Tito chucked them out early on and went on to create a prosperous pseudo-Marxist state on the Adriatic coast until the end of the Cold War opened up old, pre-Communist era wounds with a vengeance. But Tito aside, Russian tanks in Budapest 1956 and Prague 1968 are no different than the American military presence endowing their Saudi, Qatari and  Bahraini clients through mercenary armies on their home soil and beyond it. The vicious, bloodthirsty manner in which the Al-Khalifa clan has managed to cling to power in Bahrain with the US naval fleet docked there watching on makes the Soviet jackboots of 56 and 68 look somewhat lame by comparison.

Putin has widespread support inside Russia because the predominant Russian constituency - and not a bunch of art students - are rightwing social conservatives who pine for the good old days of the USSR when Mother Russia was in their mind the envy of the world. These are the same people who simultaneously put up pictures of Tsar Nicholas II and his family as well as Joseph Stalin on the same wall and find no contradiction in doing so. Aleksandr Dugin, whose video I linked below, is one of these. As such the Western corporate media is out to lunch big time on the daily misinformation they spew about the so-called Russian opposition to Putin. The real opposition to Putin, which are these Dugin-type  rightwingers where even Vladimir Zhironovsky looks tame among them, are so rightwing chauvinist and ultra-nationalist that if they ever took power in Russia the same Western corporate media bad-mouthing Putin today would make him out to be a liberal saint.

apfsm

Not a dictator. Semi-dictator, tzar. 

Must admit, when it comes to Putin I lose all objectivity. Bitter experience of an East-South European who doesn't trust Russian politics.

When you say Putin I still think about Russian tanks in Prague and Budapest.

Think of it this way

This average band has become a global brand before it even releases its first album. Their stunt has received worlwide publicity. There are so many social issues they could have protested about. Poverty, homelessness etc etc. Not enough shock value. They will seek asylum in the US or Britain. Sell their story to the tabloid press for a small fortune, more than likely end up with their own reality TV show or Big Brother, make an absolute fortune on the back of this one inane act because there are so many gullible people who will invest meaning into their mindless protest and gobble up their every pronouncement. A one way ticket to "Celebrity" status.

Amir jaan

I think shepesh has explained the hooligan aspect and providing more info on their type of protests which is enlightening. And why are you so shocked about what I think? It's only the internet ... as Michael Winner would say: Calm down dear, it's only the internet!

Personally I think they should have got another year for calling themselves by derogatory terms like K*S while pretending to understand Feminism. Add another year for crap music, though I do like punk.    :)

Back to work .... 

Interesting that Putin has been referred to as a Dictator

by ayatoilet, rea and shepesh, while he was elected by over 60% of the russian electorate and this was recorded on camera to prevent disputes.  And his popularity despite media attacks against him personally is consistenly increasing in russia not decreasing.

So My Question is What do you call Obama?????  Is he a Dictator too. By Your Definition?  I also can't believe t9 thinks their behavior is on the hooligan scale, when no violence or physical damage occured and they were not part of a criminal gang?

Land Destroyer blog

//landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2012/08/russian-punkers-get-2-years-jail-for-us.html

"Pussy Riot's" support campaign is spearheaded by Oksana Chelysheva of
the US State Department-funded "Russian-Chechen Friendship Society," a
clearing house for Chechen terrorist propaganda. Along with US State
Department-subsidized Alexey Navalny and the West's media outlets on
their side, the hooligan anti-establishment "punk rockers" now on trial
in Moscow have a decidedly "establishment" backing.

The real
reason why the Western media outlets have been so keen on covering the
"Pussy Riot" trial has nothing to do with "free speech."

The
West, and more specifically, the corporate-financier interests of Wall
Street and London, see Russia's current government as a barrier to not
only the return to the unmitigated plundering of the Russian people they
had enjoyed in the 1990's, but a check and balance inhibiting their
hegemonic ambitions globally. The West has propped up with money and
political support the opposition movement from which "Pussy Riot" has
emanated.

This latest stunt was designed specifically to breath
new life into the crumbling, overtly foreign-backed "opposition" that
has been attempting to divide and undermine both Russia and the
government of President Vladamir Putin, before, during, and after his
return to the presidency. Instead, this latest stunt does little more
than further expose the increasingly visible hypocrisy and injustice
pervading all parts of Western society.

Finally, "Pussy Riot"
are not punk rockers. They are US State Department-backed instruments of
corporate-financier hegemony, used as leverage against a Russian
government standing in the way of Wall Street and London's order of
international corporatocracy. The punk culture, ironically represents
the antithesis of such an international order - ironic indeed that so
many have superficially defended "Pussy Riot" as targeted "punkers" when
substantively they are "poseurs."

'US slams Pussy Riot verdict while jailing more than any nation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZgiRu9XCLA&feature=player_embedded

*

*

watching the Aleksandr Dugin link by frashogar

How stupid were the corrupt islamic authorities in our country Iran to not defend a secular leader????? 

How stupid are they today for not listening to the people for over 33 years and trying to build at the expense of the resentment of all Iranians including their own diminishing supporters who oppose Islamic Corruption which solely seeks money & power for themselves, while lying about giving a damn about islam???? 

The result, once the church is eventually defeated by losing its core of support among the people in society and unable to create a better life, due to its incompetance and corruption, the secular principle will reign supreme again and corrupt religous authorities will be a stupidity of the past, though the usa/uk/france will try their best to keep their own mullahs in power, the people will eventually thwart this manipulation which is causing Iranians to be supressed and harmed.

My view is different, we can agree to disagree

I saw the video and punk rock is not violence for me, it is not physically vandalizing property, nothing brutal or bullying about it.  I thought when people have a definition to go by they all agree, now I see how wrong I was.  My question to others reading.... Is your perception that they were hooligans?????  

Seeking attention is not hooliganism or too cynical.  FYI attacking an idea or view or belief is not hooliganism.  You may not like their action, but how do you readers define it?  I relate to it as offensive to some, intrusion, attention getting, expressing opposing ideas. 

Frashogar, Ahura,

Very good link, thanks.

i had not viewed it when I made my first comment below, my problem with the argument though mostly I agree with the substance of it as it is empiracly provable is that he is sticking to a fixed solid philosophy, not able to make exceptions.  Humanity doesn't need that in the new world of science and needs to be able to feel and discuss its way through issues.  My view.  So MISREPRESENTATION/exagerration of individuals in order to protect the central powers from foreign domination is a losing strategy, because the entire system is going in a wrong direction in response to the attack of views, I agree that giving into it is a losing game too, so the solution is too flow with it, show flexiblity, adapt and use their change to have maximum impact against the hypocrisy and tyranny of the west, the 2 proven pillars of western democracy.  Blasphemy against any organization (church or whatever) is not a serious crime in a democracy, unless it leads to some individuals harming other individuals like racism and it shouldn't be in russia either.  This over reaction in defense of their previous culture, to prove independence, could take russia in a direction that is not bright for anyone exactly because it is being used as a strategy to Suppress/thwart Russian progress towards democracy, the exact same way the west manufactured to suppress/thwart iranian progress towards democracy with the shah at a time when Iranians would have benefitted by having Rastakhiz to maintain Iranian freedom from corruption, poverty etc. until more and more democratic institutions could be developed.  Just look at how well this approach worked against the late shah who was demonised first and then discarded even though he was the defender of Iranian freedom, progress, peace and human rights and never made such mistakes a the russians.  The west is developing sticks to beat russians with, exactly as they did to iranians, just because rusian society is far more afvanced and civilized than Irans was, its not smart to hand over sticks to the west and it give them something to march with. 

Amir

The main point of my comment is that they did behave like hooligans. People are too keen to make this political and get into a frenzy about Free Speech, for whatever reasons. I am also personaly peeved by ignorant and abusive people who hijack causes such as Feminism. I'm glad though that people are contesting the harshness of the sentence.

But anyway, they have a new single out! Am I too cynical?

Shepesh 2 points

1) That the UK, USA, France are the worlds greatest Hypocrits EVER and disingenuously uphold decent values for others, while betraying them is not in question.  Not for Me at least.  2) Does that make the sentence in Russia okay?

For me not, Russia needs to be the leader in the world on these issues and needs to show the world time and again that its society is the new deserving leader for freedom and justice.... so long as the USA, Uk , France, Germany disingenuously present themselves as such world leaders, while stealing , raping and plundering all 4 corners of the world and imposing regression, corruption and tyranny, murduring angelic heads of countries, intentionally misrepresenting them and even poisoning them or committing crimes against human rights upon billions of people we have a world where true hope, is either non existent or too fragile.  This case needs to be appealed and resolved lawfully, not politically.  This way the russians using their media can bring the world and the people of the wests attention to the filthy hypocritical values the west lives by and how much worse they are in simiar cases and how they do not resolves their injustices appropriately or publicize them appropriately.  The people in the west need to see russia do right and have all their feelings against russia magnified and turned towards their own concealed crimes, as yet they are unaware of due to their masters/corporate medias domination of their thoughts, view points, feelings and therefore actions.  To a degree that is not healthy.

T9, the reason there is antipathy towards Pussy Riot,

is the sex acts with dead chickens, the public orgies etc, the crudeness of their acts.  I agree with you the sentence was terrible, the sentence was a misrepresentation of what they did in the church and their actions there, its seems to have been politically based and over time if it stays I think will back fire on the establishment in time.  Whether you are talking about Pussyriot or Putin, personal attacks are not democratic,if you wish to make an attack, attack their views and beliefs that is what we need to be fighting for.  Freedom of expression means disrespect and even hatred at views, beliefs and ideas (not individuals which could be harmed)is correct. so attacking christian or islamic, republican or monarchy, principals or ideals, beliefs is okay.  For political reasons not legal the sentence is disgusting for a russia that has come so far and been doing relatively well compared to the other leadering societies, until this happened.

Aleksandr Dugin: Pussy Riot's Global Blackmail

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxhxRyeX8tY&feature=player_embedded

In the UK

Lets say some young people burst into a religious building in the UK, in this case a mosque. They are wearing coloured balaclavas and proceed to do something similar scream, shout obscenities in the most sacred part of the building distressing the Muslims instead of the nuns in that video. They film it and use it as way a of politically objecting to the government about the islamification of Britain. What would happen? Most likely police in riot vans show up pinning them to the floor. Then the government will probably say it is 'racially aggravtated harrassment' and are jailed (for perhaps 2 years). 

After the London riots four men jailed for 4 years for putting up a spoof web page that was taken down within 24 hours and did not even result in any protests; the cases of people jailed for minor offences, such as stealing a pair of shoes or bottle of water or packet of cigarettes. Consider the reaction if a protest band occupied Westminster Abbey or St.Paul's, those jailed for desecrating the Cenotaph.

They could have made a record like Najafi but decided to occupy a Holy building and terrorise people inside. 

Best way to put forward freedom of expression or msg?

is hijacking a Cathdral while conducting a service on air and singing with profanity?

Most people are for freedom of expression/ speech but some would agree the way it was done/ conduct of the women was inappropriate to peaceful protest. Has anyone watched the video of this "protest"?

This is also why (some of my friends in Russia who do feel the same even about Putin) are suspicious of motives of this group - publicity. What is wrong is the harshness of the sentence, even Amnesty and Russia's Orthodox Church have said this. Opinion polls in Russia have shown little support for Pussy Riot. One recent poll of Russians released by the Levada research group showed only 6% sympathised, while 51% felt antipathy or had nothing good to say about them. Even those against Putin do not support protests that are disrespectful.

Ayatoilet, I agree with lots of what you say,

I don't think the bureacrats in Russia realize what a mess they have made and the tool they gave (the USA/the UK) the greatest hypocrits of all time.  Putin is far closer to a dictator than many of the usual candidates that are called dictator in the self serving media, for one he was elected on the 3rd try with around 60% of all voters and recorded on camera, a musolini/stalin/hitler type accomplishment which like them actually gives him absolute power from popularity in a way few kings, if any can ever claim to have had.

Obama and Bush before him are clear Dictators based on the definition, even excluding the many crimes and unlawful uses of absolute power from ever becoming public knowledge and hiding under secrecy in the name of national security, just considering what is public knowlewdge.  They were both popularly elected like putin and neither seem to have a problem with criticism, most likely because they don't listen or ask anyone to care. Iraq and Libya are not acts that will disappear from history.

Though back to russia, I've been a little too lenient on them distracted by others, this case is really a big point.  It shows the official actions of the state against its people and not in secret but officially.  They literally lied about the word hooligan and no one is defending the freedom or dignity of a girl band who never did anything wrong before or hit anyone or vandalized any property. yet if the court says they are hooligans soo many just accept it with out knowing you can't invent definitions, they just committed a disturbance, thats all, thats not hooliganism, they're not a criminal gang, isn't it obvious how bad it is to harm peoples freedom on lies?????? 

Sad Day and my guess is he won't keep his popularity or win the next election if this keeps up.

ayatoilet

Agree, from A to Z. Couldn't have said it better.

A Lot of Irony in All this...

What I find really ironic is that the former head of the KGB (Putin) - the sworn Communisty - is here defending the "faith" that for so many years he would lecture against to young KGB recruits.

Then there is the great irony, that the 'mighty' Russian state feels threatened by a three tiny women with guitars. It feels so threatened that it feels it has to send them off to a far away camp for 2 years. This is the mighty, mighty state...with Nuclear submarines, Nuclear bombs, fighter planes, a massive army ...threatened by three little 'girls' (if you will). Its laughable.

Then another irony here is the Russian state will protect the right of vodka merchants - and sees nothing wrong or unruly about massive alcohol abuse undermining social order across the whole country; BUT - BIG BUT - three little girls, screaming in a church is a 'great - state - crime'.

Bottom-line Putin is a dictator, and can't fathom any dissent or criticism. It shows how really insecure he is, and how fragile his grip on power is. He is scared of three little 'girls'. For all his manliness, and shirt off pictures killing bears; for all his screwing arround with a Russsian gymnast half his age...and then sending her off to hide with his love child - he really is a scared woos. A sad pathetic woos. And this case fully proves that.  

...

Must admit I chuckled at what deputy PM Dmitry Rogozin said to Madonna, never one to miss an opportunity to get attention. She should stick to what she does best - music and stop playing politics. On tour in Israel she said  Israel is the "energy center of the world."  She wears a cross, not because of the values that go along with the cross but because she is using it as a prop. 

For the Record, from the russian point of view

I get the Argument that the Band was Aiming to Stir Up The Russian Religous Community To Oppose Russia's Authorities and Agencies with plenty of co-ordination and backing for achieving this from US funded groups within Russia and Publicity in Western Media, and so in that sense this issue was not just about Freedom of Expression, however then that should have been the reason they got 2 years with many other people involved around this event getting sentences also.

Involvment without knowledgde in internationally/foreign funded politcial activities against the entire state, then 2 years would make more sense as would, "crudely undermined social order" but calling it "hooliganism motivated by religious hatred" is a politically written sentence aimed at undermining the planners aims, not a judicial sentence.