Sic Semper Tyrannis

Muhammad Sahimi: Deep but not deep enough

Mr Sahimi, while I am sorry for your personal sufferings I am conscious of the burden of responsibility you carry for the part you played in bringing about a tyranny, hundred times worse than the one you succeeded in toppling, which executed your friends and family. You were a blind foot soldier to a religious leader whose doctorine you didn't fully understand, whose words you took at face value, and whose past deeds you presumably admired. By the time your realised you were used to pave the way, it was far too late. Any regrets? I doubt it. Knowing you, I am sure you would still insist on the rightousness of your deeds and your thoughts and would  not for a second wish to have kept the former regime and reformed it. I am talking about a regime that despite your claim to have opposed it and participated in all the demonstration and strikes to bring it down, did not touch you and only "cautioned you" or verbally pressed your for information (if that is indeed what  happend in your Meykadeh Avenue meetings?).

But none of these seem to have wisened you up. You still say that you dispise the Shah's regime and its leader. Your blind zeal against the regime who didn't put you in a prison cell in Evin, instead summoned you three times to a posh address for a chat!,  neither did it kill your brother, your cousin, as I am sure they, like you, were hell bent to topple the former regime, is quite telling. And yet you are prepared to give the perpetrators of the present regime a benefit of the doubt and allow them to reform the regime!! You are still more forgiving to the regime that robbed you of your friends and family than to the regime who only chatted with you in Meykadeh Avenue and later gave you a scholarship to study in the US!

Is this a self-denyal mechanism against your guilty conscience or as you inisist a "correct" reading of history?!! 

I leave it to the readers to assess your morality high grounds pretensions as opposed to your blind zeal  against your former benefactors.

GR Its disgusting but not as disgusting as US Policy today

As we speak, USA is slowly tightening the noose on the current heads of IRI by s l o w l y sanctioning irans oil sales to put economic hardship on the people against khameneii and AN, enough to cause pressure on people to rebel against Khameneii's team... on the otherside they have no intention of helping people who wish to pursue a secular democracy for Iran.  They are giving waivers to Japan, China and others to gradually put pressure on regime not quickly stop all oil trade, the aim of the USA is to help mousavi, khatami and rafsanjani get controll of Iran via getting control of the IRGC with help from the masses.

I wish RP all the luck in the world, he will need it and more, we all need to actively shun opposition of any and all groups that are uniting against the IRI establishment, anyone that is not IRI and anti-IRI no matter what conviction do not attack them, but encourage them to support a secular democratic Iran.  Thats all for those who are beating up on various anti-IRI groups.  As far as making sure no one can defend the other Non-secular foreign backed side of the IRI or Mek we need to get busy on that too.  Both all IRI and all MeK leaders need to be brought to a trial before the people on their acts of murder and terrorism against the people of Iran.

AO:

That is how Islamists would like to revise the history many Iranians have lived through. There are people who attack RP or other opposition forces shamelessly while defending Mousavi et al. In their own unscrupulous way, they try to hold RP accountable for what went on in his father's time. But when it comes to Mousavi and other former and current IR criminals they fabricate all sorts of blatant lies in their defense.

GR - the other question that we should ask ourselves is this

do we really want a leader who was so oblivious to mass murder of tens of thousands of people while he was Prime Minister?!!!  Was he really that dumb and uninquisitive about his surroundings?  He had no idea?  Really?!!!  

Mammad, regarding mousavi,

People of his position are not just sitting around staring at the sky during massive events like a mass execution.  All these people had been tried in an islamic court and sentenced and completed their sentences.  Next they were all re-ordered back to prison, many re-captured back on orders of khomeini, this process didn't happen over night either, next in total violation to islamic law and other law people who had almost all of them completely served their sentences were mass executed after completion of their sentences. That is the distinction upon which it was opposed by khomeini's buddy buddy, the other p.o.s. Ayatollah.

Mousavi's opinion on the matter was that he believed that groups who once posed a threat to the IRI's future survival should be executed and was in support of khomeini's view on this matter.   For someone who lost so much personally it's surprising you don't know all this history and detail. Regarding your time with Savak, may I ask, were you tortured in 1976?

Thanks Rea and thanks for the link

this is not the first time that aN has been on the hardliner's bad side for hejab issues.  He delayed their hejab legislation in the parliament for three years, to the point that he was taking a lot of heat. i think that he would do away with a mandatory dress code all together if the choice was up to him.  I don't see him as a religious zealot, at least not the type that would impose his religious beliefs on other by force.  i see him more as a messianic nationalist, which is dangerous in its own ways.  But I don't see him as the type that would want to interfere much with what people wear and do in their personal lives.  He has bigger things on his mind. 

AO:

I know quite a few of them. One as young as 14 years old. Another a physically-challenged 17-year old boy along with his father. The father wasn't an activist of any kind. He had no interest in politics, whatsoever. They were hanged in public alongside one another. There were many! "Confessions" were extracted by either lies or coercion. The families found out after they been executed. No trials whatsoever. No lawyers. No one to talk to. The "assassins" would normally end their own lives before arrest. So, the nonsense that "Mousavi didn't know" is just another shameless excuse by those who crave for the status quo during the "Golden Era" and want to return to it.

Planet of the Ahmadi

He may just prove to be the airborne virus I have always been hoping will internally destroy IRI. As the body dies the virus and bacteria attacking it will die with it, providing its disposed of quickly and correctly.

At least, he's trying

I'd definitely give him a credit for this:  

//www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/in-iran-a-battle-over-womens-fashions/2011/12/22/gIQAj0HVIP_story.html

When one knows that in the 1970s there were proud mini skirts in the streets of Teheran, the above is a step forward. Into the past, that is.

@AO, sharp as always, pleasure reading you again.

Transformations in a person

if memory serves me right, in early 1980s, Moussavi was a radical Islamist person associated with "joomhourie eslami" newspaper and was not progressive or reformist at all. He was very much a fanatic. that is why he became prime minister in atmosphere of early 1980s which was a time that regime became increasingly more brutal in suppression of other groups. Now Mossouvai might have transformed in later years but if memory serves me right, Moussavi of early and mid 1980s was diffrent from Moussavi of late 2000s. Also youngesters who supported Moussavi in late 2000s in Iran mostly had no idea of background of Moussavi in 1980s, or they believed that he was not responsible in killings of 1980s. So they judged him based on his late 2000s actions and talks and found him better than others in IRI. In early 1980s, he was a radical IRI leader. Now if you lived in Iran in those years and followed these people closely, tell me that I remember wrong.

GR-You are quite correct about Moussavi

For us to believe his innocence, we will have to believe one or more of the these scenarios:

1-Mousavi is a total retard who was unaware (due to his mental incapacity) of mass executions--of which most ordinary Iranian citizens were aware.

2-As you correctly point out, we have to believe that those who were executed--and whose execution was supported and endorsed by Moussavi, were really and truly assassins, etc. 

3- Related to No.: 2: we will have to believe that the IR had a fair and unbiased judicial system that proved the guilt of those mentioned in number 2.

None of the above flies.  Moussavi is a criminal and is complicit in mass murder. 

Mousavi Supported What?

"Mousavi supported execution of those who had taken arms and had carried out assassinations, bombing, etc. At least that is my understanding of what he had said in interviews." And how were the so-called, "confessions" to armed struggle and bombings extracted? Does he say anything about the kangaroo courts set up by his criminal comrades? Does he say anything about the victims of regime's massacres not being represented by any lawyers? Mousavi is a shameless hypocrite and a criminal!!!

Ahmadinejad's biggest contribution to democratic discourse

in Iran was his willingness and insistence on live, no holds barred, televised debates.  The 2009 presidential debates in Iran were unprecedented in Iran's history.  They have, in fact, have become precedent and the standard for any future presidential election where the candidates can claim a fair and free election.  

Say what you want about the guy, but no one, pre or post 1979 devolution, had submitted to the bra beating that AN took during those debates.  Not Khatami, not Rafsanjani...no one before him.  Doesn't he deserve credit for that?  Would you consider any other presidential election in Iran--even post IR--as credible without a debate?  In my opinion, that is the single, most significant legacy of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.    

Anglophile

I felt it when my brother and cousins were executed in 1981-82. Is that deep enough for you?

I felt it when I realized that Taghi Khan and Hassan Dasht Ara, the first one a high school friend, the second one a university friend and classmate were executed in 1988, not to mention the others that I knew. Is that deep enough for you?

And speaking of Savak, I was summoned by Savak to its house on that small alley on Meykadeh avenue on the Elizabeth [now Keshavarz] Blvd three times in 1976. I was not summoned for lunch, dinner, or party though, although I have never claimed that I was a student activist in my years there, even though I was in every single demonstration and strike.

But, I never meant to put myself on high moral grounds. What I meant was people like me who have suffered personally still insist on a correct reading of history, even though they have every personal reason to be blind by hatred of what happened to them. 

Mammad

A bit of history

Mousavi supported execution of those who had taken arms and had carried out assassinations, bombing, etc. At least that is my understanding of what he had said in interviews. I am against execution of anyone, even the worst criminal, but that is me.

But, that is different from saying he had a role in the executions of 1988, which was a crime against humanity against people who had not been sentenced to death [I am not talking about the ridiculous judiciary system, but that according to their own verdicts, they had been sentenced to jail]. Instead of guessing and making statements without any firm evidence, we can refer to the most authoritative and the only credible source about those executions, namely, the memoirs of Grand Ayatollah Hossein-Ali Montazeri, respected by everyone at least when we talk about those executions.

There is not a single word in GA Montazeri's memoir about any role that Mousavi might have played. He never mentions him. He names a lot of people. In fact, it is because of him that we know who carried out the orders. That explains why he supported Mousavi so strongly in the aftermath of June 2009. GA Montazeri also says that Khamenei was apparently not aware of execution of the MKO members, and went to him, disturbed about it when he became aware of it. Khamenei is a criminal, but that is the history as GA Montazeri recounted. And, perhaps most interestingly, at least before June 2009 elections, even MKO never held Mousavi partly responsible for those executions. This is also a fact.

Mousavi became aware of the executions in Septemer 1988, when they had practically ended. According to Dr. Ardeshir Amir Arjomand, he formed a commission to study why they were executed. The results were presented to Khomeini, but the content was never made public. Mousavi also submitted his resignation to Khomeini around the same time, but Khomeini rejected it.

Who said Khomeini was not aware? He was the one who ordered the killings, although the order was written by his son Ahmad.

Once again: If Mousavi had any sort of responsibility, he should be held accountable proportional to his responsibility. This is not about defending him, but about reading and learning history as it happened, not as the way we would like it to have happened. That is the only way we can learn the right lessons from history.

Mammad

RG - Samsam and Maryam Hojjat

Maryam: Thank you for your kind words.

RG- The oppression of minorities that you correctly point to has been going on since the creation of the IR.  In fact, the oppression in Kurdestan was more severe under Moussavi's watch.  Again, I think that AN should be put on trial for crimes against humanity just like the rest of them.  And yes, perhaps I should be his defense lawyer.  I'll do such a shit job, he will be hanged in less than 24 hours.  :-))  I will be like the chicken lawyer in Futurama:

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6CPPema0QY

Samsam Jaan: my brother, you and I are among the few on this site who know what is really up with Iran and what needs to be done to get rid of this plague.  The rest are either IR "jireh khors" or are "Green" wannabe AN-tellectuals.  That's what sets us apart from these hopeless bunch.  The good news is that everytime I talk to real Iranians inside Iran, I realize how much closer they are to our ideology than the West residing, bleeding heart (for their beloved akhoonds) losers we see in the West.     

Bahram G

Glad you enjoyed.  I was on vacation, and thought I should take some time off from the 'internets" (as W. used to call it).  I did, nonetheless, created havoc in the real world to substitute for my online mischief. 

As far as being a vegan: yes, I am.  It has many health benefits, including lower cholesterol and a longer life span.  But as far as diabetes goes, I believe that you can still do some serious damage to yourself even if you're a vegan.  For example, foods high in starch content, such as bread, rice, etc. are extremely harmful to people with diabetes (if taken without proper medication and in high doses, of course).  But again, I'm not a doctor, and no one should rely on my advice in that regard...or in any other regard for that matter! :-) 

I haven't tried any of the remedies that Red Wine suggests, but without being too graphic, I wuld assume that if I did get the "runs," it would be rather difficult to find Ahmadinejad in the resulting discharge.  I guess at that time, the entire IR will be in the homogeneous mix. :-)

Mammad Sahimi

شراب سرخ گرامی‌

این عکس دست کار جنابعالی است؟  من وقتی‌ که آن را post کردم متوجه نبودام.  اگر است، پوزش از اینکه نام شما را ذکر نکردم.  دستکار جدید شما هم بسیار جالب است.  

به علت مشغولی‌ کاری جراحی زانو برای آخر فوریه‌ scehdule شده است.  چیزایی را که شما فرمودید-به غیر از ورزش-هنوز امتحان نکردم.  شاید در این دو ماهی‌ که وقت است امتحان کنم.

سپاس فراوان 

"I didn't know" won't work

Just ask the defendants at the Nuremberg Trials.  Plus, as the article that I linked to shows, Mousavvi has tacitly admitted that he knew about the mass murders by trying to justify them (albeit his justification is as flimsy as his claims of lack of knowledge).  

Mousavvi was a part of the killing machinery.  If I was a betting man, I would bet that he even took part in the logestical aspects of it. 

Plus, I am not claiming that Moussavi was involved in the murders, Mr. Robertson, and internationally respected lawyer and human rights advocate says so.   

Mousavi , as the PM, was fully aware of executions

and even supported it, based on the interview he gave at the time to german news agency (I believe). Only Monatzari , from within the regime, opposed it and lost his position as the next VF (after khomeini's death) as the result.

More importantly Mosavi has never even acknowledged his role or apologised for this crime against humanity. Look at this from his wife:

 "Rahanvard said in interviews with a number of websites: “The crimes and the terrorist operations of the said group (People’s Mohajedin of Iran Organization) are evident to all. However, the revengeful response of their adversary was a big error and is not acceptable.”

According to Rahanvard, Ayatollah Khamenei and MirHosein Mousavi, the president and prime minister of the time “were not informed about these crimes.”

//www.zamaaneh.com/enzam/2010/09/rahanvard-co...

Really? Khomeini was not informed of the crimes??!!!  The f*&ing old murderer signed the actual Fatwa for the execution, making sure it was done quickly and without any mercy, when questioned about the details...

Here is another more recent link, from a respected international lawyer, clearly implying Mousavi in this act of Genocide upon the best of Iran's youth..

Mir-Hossein Mousavi 'involved in massacre', says report

Mousavi and his wife, instead of lying, should simply come out, and apologise for this crime of mass murder. nothing less would do....

"Personal business must yield to collective interest."

There should be an

There should be an independent investigation of Mousavi while he was the PM. A fact finding mission based on documents and verifiable evidence. I see nothing wrong with giving him the due process.

 A state of war only serves as an excuse for domestic tyranny.--Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn.

VPK and Bahram

VPK:

Mousavi did try to resign in September 1988, but Khomeini prevented it. But, even if he did not, I said he has moral responsibility.

Bahman:

I did not dispute the total number of executed, which is around 17,000. All I said was the total number in summer of 1988 was 4550. Ayatollah Montazeri put the number at 2800-3800, but the most complete list that I have seen has about the number that I quoted. Even one execution is too many. That is not the point. The point is we must be different from the VF regime in that we must be truthful.

Both of you miss the point: I said, anyone who had involvement in those crimes must be held responsible, including Mousavi, Khatami, Karroubi, and others, if they had any role. But, saying because Mousavi was the PM he was responsible is baseless. The history of the IRI indicates that the judiciary and the MI are never controlled by the PM or president, and the two, together with Khomeini and his son Ahmad, were the prime culprits. People like Mostafa Pourmohammadi, Ebrahim Raeisi, Nayyeri, and others in the MI and judiciary, who carried out the order.

Mammad

Of course, Emam had primary responsibility

For the mass executions and for continuing a war that resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iranians. But Mousavi was and has always been fanatically loyal and devoted to his Emam. Now, what does that say about the man and his worldview?

old terms, new watch

 I received a new Omega and I need to program it so it recognizes old terms like massacre, genecide. ethnic cleansy and the last but not the least hollo-boro-to-galo-cust

I wear an Omega watch

Dear Bahram

Yes absolutely that is the most possible one of all. I am giving Mammad the benefit of doubt "assuming" Mousavi was not. My whole point is that actions indicate Mousavi was in fact supportive of the murders.

If not then he would have done something to stop or at least reduce them. If it was not possible he should have resigned. That is why I asked Mammad about it.

VPK

There is a third possibility. He was in full support of the genocide.

Mammad. You dispute the figures people believe and you say that only several thousands were murdered. You make it sound as if it was okay since the butchers did not slaughter more. Then you go and bemoan the death of your friends in the massacre! To me, even one human slaughtered is tantamount to the slaughter of the sole of mankind. No one. No group. No government should ever be allowed to take a life. I deeply resent the implications of your statement. Please rethink your stance.

Mammad A question

I agree that PM was not in charge of the executions. But should he not have resigned if he disapproved? Didn't Bazargan resign in protest to hostage situation. So there is precedent for resignation in from of him.

If I was a part of a government that did things I did not approve I would resign. There are two arguments for not resigning even though you disapprove:

• He felt he could do more good by preventing other atrocities. If so what is the proof that he did anything.
• He was in too minor a role to matter; PM is not a minor role.

AO, I meant NEAR Demise of IRR

You write great.

AO, I add this to your Blog

He has accelarated the demise of IRR as well.