Sic Semper Tyrannis

Dr Ala

You said it sir, just give it a year the most. He didn't deserve the way he was disgraced and murdered.

Vildemose

Thanks for the info about your avatar. It always appeared to me to be Hermann Göring :)

Thank you AO for this blog and others for a good exchange

Thank you AO for this blog and other posters for a good exchange of ideas and their views.

My last comment here.... where Kaddafi was captured is NOT important, the important issue is that... he was a prisoner before his execution.  This is a crime according to international law.... I agree that he was a dictator, he was ruthless, etc., BUT .... our experience.... give it a year... the majority of Libyans will regret their new democratic society because they did not respect or did not know the international law and they were vindictive.

Ghaddafi was Brave or Kalhe Kahr

I don't know if he was brave but I do know he was stupid. As for:

and was the found in a ditch begging for his life was brave and dignified?

How do I know this; there is no proof of what happened. We just have some claims and photos. On the other hand he should have given up when it was obvious he is losing. That was stupid not brave we say "Kaleh Khari".

Dr. Ala and Souri

Dr. Ala,

you are correct about the contractors.  Look, I really love America, as much as I do Iran.  My cousin is a U.S. Marine serving in Afghanistan, and did a year in Iraq before that.  Another cousin of mine (a female) also served in the Marines. I tried to enlist some years ago, but was declined because of a medical condition.  I wanted to re-pay my debt to the country that has done so much for me.  I believe in a strong military and total U.S. dominance in the world.  It's a real world out there, where people wave guns, not peace signs and flowers.  We have to be on top of the food chain. But I really have a hard time with the military industrial complex (MIC)  taking over this country's economy and politics.  Eisenhower was dead on.   Post 1950's, MIC has really had its way across the board.  We can have a strong defense without giving the country away to special interest.  But this is what happens when you have unlimited-and I really mean unlimited--amounts of money to spend on lobbying.  Thanks for the comment and the link.

Souri

Until there is some proof about DSK being framed, I cannot accept it as fact.  All we have heere is a hypothesis.  It could be true, but we'rre not sure.  So, at this point at least, I can't accept is as fact.  Thanks for the info, though.  Very interesting stuff. 

Amirkabir4u & Albaloo

Amirkabir - good analysis. And as for this: 

I find it extremely difficult to believe these people come to power because their people want to. There are other politicians which help them and give them this godly feeling. 

None of them had the support.  They were at best opportunists and charlatans, and took advantage of people's frustrations and misfortunes--like Khomein. 

Albaloo 

You think that the way he allowed his country to be destroyed--even his hometown of Sirt--and was the found in a ditch begging for his life was brave and dignified?  Why didn't he put a bullet in his own head when he realized there was no way out and save hundreds, if not thousands, of lives? 

Coward?

The guy got killed for what he stood for. An Stubborn idiot perhaps but coward? I do not think so. Cowards are western dictators.  

western dictators = coward and smart

the rest of the dictators = brave but idiot 

AO

A very good question.

In my opinions it all goes back to who they are, what class of their society they come from and what political ideology they have.

It is proven those who have good intentions they have less chance of becoming someone in middle east.

It is also because they maybe been brain washed too, like their own citizens. When it gets hot they start to panic. Their reaction is natural, considering everyone loves them then everything falls apart. Our own shah was such example.

I find it extremely difficult to believe these people come to power because their people want to. There are other politicians which help them and give them this godly feeling. 

Fairness and Equality in Justice

A little question for Mammad agha Sahimi

AO jon

You are too funny :)

Thanks for your very Americanized anaylysis of the subject.

Again, the question was not: Whether DSK is a true "coureur de juppon = skirt chasing" yes or not? To which, the response is  an absolute : Yes! He is.

But the question was: Did the Americans take adventage of his weakness, to make a plot against him, at a very special moment when they needed it? To which, the only valid response is still an absolute : Yes! they did!

But you didn't answer the latter question.

Nevertheless, we stand our cases and will continue to enjoy discussing other matters here, in the future :)

Regards;

Dear Souri

First, unfortunately, the greeting that I wrote below is the extent of my knowledge of French, and I had to Google this one to get the correct spelling. :-))

But I did a search and found this piece in English by Mr. Thierry:

//www.voltairenet.org/Obama-financial-war-and-the

his theories are ineresting, but there's no proof.   I will of course consider them it if he offers some proof.  for now, what I know about DSK is that he was charged with sexual assault based on the testimony of the hotel maid.  The testimony was detailed and realistic, which means that he probably did what he was accused of.  But at some point, her credibility was challenged, not because her stry didn't add up, but because other events surrounding her.  So, faced with a good legal defense team, the prosecutor ended up dropping the charges.  From what I understand, the witness (the person who complained) remained consistent throughout.  But the case had to be dropped nonetheless. I actually think that there was a bif  gger conspiracy t drop the charges than to arrest him.  

Dear AO

Well, I'm very much impressed and enchanted to see that you have followed DSK's affair. Then please tell me what you think about that?

BTW, it seems that you know French a bit?! I hope so.

Then let me know also what you do think of Thierry's opinion which I posted below? 

Yes Souri - this time of year I usually live in a cave

and that's why I haven't heard of DSK!! :-)  It's actually funny that you mention him because a good friend of mine was involved in his legal case. I usually heard the juicy news about the affable, skirt chasing Mr. Kahn from him before it hit the newsstands.  Please don't make assumptions about me, as I don't make assumptions about you.  You don't know me.

But melodarama aside, I don't make up what my ideal system is, and then pigeonhole myself in that way of thinking so that I am forced to believe every single crazy conspiracy theory to make believe my self created version of an "ideal system" is right.  Follow me on that?  I'm a realist, you see.  This is not a perfect world, and it never will be.  Extreme left idealism has failed, and will continue to fail because it fails to deal with reality--hence, the conspiracy theories.

Au revoir!

If we're going to praise Qaddafi...

Then we should also praise the leaders of Kuwait, UAE, and Qatar -- all of which are countries with much higher standards of living (as judged by life expectancy, infant mortality, literacy rates, physical infrastructure, etc) than Libya. Moreover, while these countries are certainly not democratic by a long shot, they are far less brutal and bloody than Libya, the IRI, Syria, Sudan, etc). The number of people killed by these states is not even remotely comparable to the number killed by Qaddafi, Asad, Sudan or our own Islamist terrorist regime. 

Thierry Meyssan is a free journalist

You must follow his reports (in English, as unfortunately he is French spoken) and you will see/understand what is going on, the whole turbelence and events and their inter-connecxion!

He even talks about the plot agaisnt DSK in here (unfortunately in French, again) I bet you either didn't hear of DSK's affair in New York or even if you heard this, you didn't see the complexity of the affair and its relation to the world's crisis right now:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=BW_uIUS73A8

Apart from this, dear AO, I see that your mind is already set. Actually I usually avoid debating Politics with the residents of US |(and the North America) because we do not see things from the same angles and also the lack of a good information system in US, so we can not point to the truth and facts....this is a very pointless effort for me.

As for Iraq after the US invasion and the industrial investments in there and how happy the people are there now, I know!!
This has been all discussed in Michel Moore's movie, Farenheit 9/11 a long time ago!!!!
Have you seen that movie?

About the conspiracy, though:

I must say yes,  I believe in conspiracies :) you are right!

You too, do the same, without knowing it!

The whole politics is based on conspiracies, dear. Whether by the West, East, Middle East, Leftists, Right wings, Conservatives or liberals or democrates....etc etc.
First, it  takes just to determine , what is our ideal system and our goal, then we all follow that line, and believe in everything in that line , including the conspiracies!

I am afraid I have nothing else to add to this conversation with you.

I stand my case.

Respects;

"....economic dictators and their interests..."

So, America and the Western companies ought to leave Iraq and Libya and allow the Chinese, Russian, and the likes companies to take over and reconstruct these countries...

The overt West-residing-yet-bashing and subtle Chinese/Russian-admiring people here are really something, huh....!? 

Iraq

AO, I follow Iraq, especially its football because five of their national players are playing in IPL.  I need to add that they call 2013 A. Gulf....

President Obama announced that USA will leave Iraq by the end of 2011... but it was also in the news that several thousand of private contractors will remain there which validates my theory of economic dictators and their interests...

Thank you Vildemose Jan

Very interesting personality. I thought she was a suffragette in England, so I wasn't too far off. I've never heard of Mary Harris Jones but I'm fascinatyed with women in history. 

Dear 30 morgh: She is

Dear 30 morgh:

She is  

Mary Harris "Mother" Jones (August 1, 1837 – November 30, 1930), born in Cork, Ireland, was a prominent American labor and community organizer, who helped coordinate major strikes and co-founded the Industrial Workers of the World.

She worked as a teacher and dressmaker but after her husband and four children all died of yellow fever and her workshop was destroyed in a fire in 1871 she began working as an organizer for the Knights of Labor and the United Mine Workers union.

She was a very effective speaker, punctuating her speeches with stories, audience participation, humor and dramatic stunts. From 1897 (when she was 60) she was known as Mother Jones and in 1902 she was called "the most dangerous woman in America" for her success in organizing mine workers and their families against the mine owners. In 1903, upset about the lax enforcement of the child labor laws in the Pennsylvania mines and silk mills, she organized a Children's March from Philadelphia to the home of then president Theodore Roosevelt in New York.

The magazine Mother Jones, established in 1970, is named after her.

In the 1989–90 Pittston Coal strike the wives and daughters of the miners organized themselves as the "Daughters of Mother Jones" and represented the strikers to the press...more below.

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Harris_Jones

"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." - Louis D. Brandeis

good response ao.  you've

good response ao.  you've also answered shahollahis who think iranians would not have last names, cars, roads, health care, oil!, .... if it wasn't for the pahlavis.  in other words, we would have been stuck forever in 1920s.  yes, not only these dictators "gave" away all of these freebies, they also controlled time.  these people don't understand the concept of opportunity cost: what could have they gotten if they weren't ruled by a megalomaniac?  also the road to an improved form of government may be bumpy.  lessons can be learned from the oldest democracy in the world.

Correct TS-9 Jaan - Also

Even at the peak of NATO bombing, with all kind of claims of civilian deaths by Ghaddafi, he failed to show even one dead civilain after NATO bombing raids despite repeated requests by international journalists.  

There were a few rebel fighters who were accidentally killed by NATO bombing.  But that's an unfortunate side effect of war, especially in fight like this when battle lines are not clearly drawn.   

rebels, insurgents, and terrorists .....

AO, my point about mind teaser was positive about your blog, yes, we also share the blame for our shortcomings.

When Kaddaffi went against economic dictators’ interests, , he became a thug and NATO started the bombing.  The rebels, insurgents, and terrorists are the words that Western countries use to their advantage (we have seen these words used in ME for the same people).  In my view, the West and their economic dictators want to keep ME in their sphere of influence.  As we know, the last thing West wants is independent free thinking democracies that choose their destiny, not the path economic interests dictate.  Here is an interesting video to watch on this topic: //www.informationclearinghouse.info/article28700.htm

Souri - Unsubstantiated Middle Eastern style conspiracy

theories.  

 And then again: Why did CIA and NATO and MI6...etc, would have pity for that nation who was under a "very hard dictatorship" and "atrocity" since 40 years? Why now?

that's what these claims are.  But let's assume for a moment that what you are saying is true and all of those entities had a hand in the Libyan uprising.  Here's the answer to your question of why did they act now:

because they saw an opening.  A spark from the people.  That's why now.  

And as far as Iraq, do you know any Iraqis?  Have you spoken to one recently who has been back to Iraq?  Iraq is booming in business and development.  They will even host the 2013 Gulf soccer championships.  They're building a whole sports city in Basra.  Did you know about that?

//www.iraq-businessnews.com/2010/12/13/basra-sport-city-to-host-gulf-cup-of-nations/

None of this justifies a war.  But I'm just answering your question of where Iraqis were 5 yrs. ago compared to where they are today.  They are mush better off than five years ago. 

AO, dear

You must look at what the Libyans had,and where they were some 40 years ago and compare it with their today's situation.

Then look at where the Iraqi's poeple were just some 5 years ago and compare it to their today's situation.

The question now is not : Whether Gaddafi was a dictator or not? Everybody knows that he was one!

The question is: Whether the people of Libya wanted to throw him away, now, at this very moment, if the CIA and NATO was not thinking in their place and wouldn't make this decision, for them?

And then again: Why did CIA and NATO and MI6...etc, would have pity for that nation who was under a "very hard dictatorship" and "atrocity" since 40 years? Why now?

Are we so naive?

About Gaddafi

Gaddafi intended to send fighter jets to bomb protesters. And he had different militias run by his various sons, so who would have known what the bloodshed would have been without NATO intervention. Gaddafi regularly employed mercenaries to help defend him during his reign and reportedly recruited hundreds of fighters from Niger and Mali as protests against his dictatorship began in February. They didn't call him Mad Dog for nothing. I can post so many links of his atrocities but I doubt if it would make a difference to some people.

Ao thanks for the interesting blog.

Souri - Now that's a classic example of backward thinking

And I don't mean it as a personal insult. Here's what I mean: people of Lybia shouldn't be thankful to Ghaddafi for "building" things.  It was his job and it was their money that he used to build those things.  To the contrary, Ghaddafi should have been thankful to the people for allowing him the opprtunity to be the leader of Libya and to be able to lve a lavish lifestyle on their dime.  See how your way of thinking is backwards?  It was ghaddafi's JOB and DUTY to build those things.  He didn't do anyone a favor.

But I am glad that you brough this up.  Because this is a classic and perevelant problem in the Middel East.  We have been conditioned to think this way for thousands of years.  If a ruler rapes, kills and steals from us, but the throws us a bone by building a building using our own money, we hail him as the greatest thing since sliced...no make that sangak bread!  we will be "andar kham -e hameen koocheh" for anothet thosudand years unless we change that mentality. 

Oon Yaroo

Is right and I have been saying this for a long time. Shah got toppled because of a concerted effort to demonize him. Yes his own actions helped his enemies. Because he did get arrogant and do stupid things. 

Shah had many Western advisers. Why did they not tell him "Rastakhiz" is a bad idea? Don't kow but would not be surprised if they encouraged him. Afterall the idea was to topple him. Why not get him to make the mistakes himself? It makes it simpler.

There is no question that Shah was good for Iran. If Iranians knew he is about to go they would not have revolted. Rather they would have waited to see what Reza Pahlavi is like. It would have given us a chance to get through Jimmy Carter.

To get to the point: I do not think people were sick of Shah. It was all the propaganda. Things like burning Cinema Rex i.e. False Flag ops. That got people made and the actions of MEK. and JM who never cared about Iran. Just power and revenge.

That brought Shah down and Islamists to power. Then MEK turned openly traitor. JM moved to the West to write blogs in praise of Mossadegh their Saint. Meanwhile Iran got the short end. 

Go thank all the big mouth patriots who spent from 1953 to 1979 plotting. Never working to help Iran or build. Infesting universities and creating discontent. While normal Iranians were trying to build a future. Thank you MEK and JM *** you!

Coward? ... nah, more like Crazy!

Bad Stories for Bad Kids

I will jump

in the lion's den. Since so many people dislike me I might as well get in. 

If Shah had done Khomeini in as AO suggests in the 60s it would have done us a favor. I read that Saddam offered to do it for him! But Shah turned it down why I have no idea. Later on in the late 1970s Shah did ask Mossad but got turned down. 

You got to take advantage of the moment when you have power. Shah should have killed Khomeini in 1960s or had Saddam do it. In return I would have given Saddam a bone. Having failed that his generals should have prevented Khomieni coming to Iran. Why let a psychopath fly in the nation to wreck it. Without Khomeini the radicals would have been at a disadvantage. 

Excellant comment by Mammad

All is said there. I have nothing to add. A very great short but complete analysis:

"Likewise, Ghaddafi did many good things for Libya. For those who do
not know: Ghaddafi built the best water distribution system in the world
for Libya. He brought women into the society; he built universities,
and he drastically reduced the gap between the rich and the poor. The
rate of infant mortality in Libya is the lowest in all of Africa. Its
health care system is - or was - one of the best. That is what I was
referring to.
The bloodshed in Libya has to do with Ghaddafi shooting at his own
people, but a lot, much more with NATO intervention. And, yes, I am a
nationalist-religious man and a leftist in my social views, and
absolutely positively proud of it. A leftist-nationalist like me prefers
a home grown dictator to a puppet "democrat" coming to power through
bombing by NATO, if these are the only two choices.
"

and this is absolutely true. This about that:

"Ghaddafi did many good things for Libya. For those who do not know:
Ghaddafi built the best water distribution system in the world for
Libya. He brought women into the society; he built universities, and he
drastically reduced the gap between the rich and the poor. The rate of
infant mortality in Libya is the lowest in all of Africa. Its health
care system is - or was - one of the best".