Aynak

Re:"Democracy ..."

Aliafandi writes; "Your post implied a simple to imagine way to create democracy on earth.
Read my posts and pay attention to how corrupt entire world is and it...."

No!   My post made a simple observation that even though Islamic Regime has eanred 4-8 times more money during Ahmadi-Nejad than the previous government, in terms of raw oil income, the contribution to a knonwn entity called "national reserve" fund has stoppped.

I suggested a democratic system, where allocation and spenditure of these funds can be tracked, as it is done in many countries in the world.   You have changed the scope of this observation to the entire world econcomy.

So where I go with specific, you go to abstract.   By doing so, you try to remove the responsibility (knowingly or unknowingly) from the entity this question is directed at:  Ahmadi-Nejad/Islamic Regime, and what has happened to the --mandatory-- 20% that must be set aside for this purpose?

Democracy?

Your post implied a simple to imagine way to create democracy on earth. Read my posts and pay attention to how corrupt entire world is and it is not just Iran and its waste of resources that one should be concerned with. I said it in every post, there is no democratic system on earth, never been and never will be until humans implement what I wrote previosuly. Hope you understand this and pay attention to the meaning of the post and not just the words in it.

Re:plus... w/ subsidy cuts, $100 billion/year black hole 4 AN

That's right dear MM, all this money and no one knows where it goes.  We certainly don't see it in terms of better living conditions, nor cleaner air, nor jobs for the unemployed .....

aliafandi:

I don't know what you are trying to argue?   that democracy is not good for Iran?  Or Findland or Norway are not democratic?  even the Ghandi and India example you gave is an example of a democracy.   ok, democracy is not good for Iran, what is?   Ahamid Nejad colaborating with a bunch of retards from Sepah to implement China model, only 30 years later with internet, is th emodel?  What's you solution?  

they're 'deposited' alright....

except not in the treasury.....but in the secret bank accounts of all the 'aftabeh dozd' akhoonds and bache akhoonds who are raping our country....

when this regime falls, and fall it will, people will be shocked to see how many trillions of dollars have been wasted or plundered from iran's oil sales 

plus... w/ subsidy cuts, $100 billion/year black hole 4 AN

w/ the advent of the subsidy cuts, IRI will save around 100 billion dollars/year. 

//www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2010/0430/Why-Iran-s-Ahmadinejad-is-pushing-to-cut-popular-government-subsidies 

AN's government was quick to take control of the funds and my guess is that it will be spent on IRI's favorite cronies, sepaah contracts, Hamas / Hezbollah, and a pittance will be distributed to pretend that the money is being directly given to the poor people.

Finland and Norway are most Demosratic???

Both Finland and Norway are oligarchies and has been for Hundreds of years. Just because they announced independence from so and so, it does not mean democracy of any sort. If you think that they are democratic countries then you are way behind in understanding what Democracy means. Find out if people in these countries directly vote about the affairs of their perspective governments or do they elect a person to voice their vote? Rule of people does not mean that groups of people elect an individual to represent and vote on their behalf. History has shown that these so called elected officials have always voted in favor of what economics has dictated and then it is no longer “Rule of People”. As you can see economics has everything to do with Democracy. Apparently you did not pay attention to my previous post about dishonesty and how the monetary system has enslaved the mankind like a prostitute. Perhaps you think that Finland and Norway’s monetary system or their government operates in favor of the people? Their governments are no different than USA or UK or China and so on. They are also corporation for profit. This is one of the reasons that the people in the mentioned countries pay extremely higher taxes than elsewhere and they are one of the most expensive places to live and it will only get worst in time. When you develop better technologies as Finland and Norway are at the cutting edge of technology, it should help ease the standard of living and make things better, cheaper, etc. Another word, these advancements should help create opportunities which can ease the cost or help the other deficiencies that are costing extra. But inflation will continue, regardless.        

Your statements about how and what democracy is, sounds very good on paper. But, the root of the problem is how the world is operating and what dictates countries to adopt a system. The word prostitute is used and I hope you understand what it means. Even people in Finland and Norway are prostitute of such system. How can anyone create a Democratic system when the opposing side has the strangle hold on their livelihood which is money and how they make it, and never allows them to stick their nose into the governments affairs. If you think revolution is the answer to rid these elements, then you have not read the history. No, violence has never created democracy. As Gandhi says; “Democracy and violence can ill go together”.     

Here is a simple example; when one is trying to go to outer space. On the first thought one may think that a rocket propelled space craft, an oxygen system to sustain life and basic necessities like water, food, toilet and shower are all that is needed to achieve the task. Simple? right? NO, there is much more to this than what it seems. Since you will be utilizing humans there will be more problems to contend with such as their endurance, psychological strengths and ability to cope with forms of Phobia, etc. There are no doctors in space and their bodies may work differently there when they get sick. As you can see what was thought at the beginnings will not be sufficient to complete the task.

Achieving democracy is the same thing. The basic elements that can create a democratic system that you wrote in your post may work if everyone thinks the same way. Unfortunately they don’t and you also failed to address some of the most important elements which are the economics, cultural and moral issues. If you feed your formula to a machine, it will work and become democratic. For us humans it is a different story. Here is a challenge for you. Try to convince a Moslem that a Democratic system which allows women to be what she wants to be or to do is better that what their religious believe. Or convince a Moslem or a Christian that democracy that allows Gays equal rights is also better than their belief. They’ll never go for it. Their social and cultural belief will always keep them in the dark. As you can see cultural and social issues have everything to do with achieving Democracy. Remember people are not machines and convincing one group whether political or religious that they are better off with something else has been the challenge of mankind to date.

Re:"Democracy..."

AliAfandi, you write: "Look at the world today. There is economic crisis everyone. No one
has time to even think about the solution of Democracy, especially in
Iran with so much pressure on public with high cost of goods, petrol,
etc. we're all prostitutes of this system, chipping off each other,
trying to make a buck. As time goes by, you will see that in reality no
one will ever help anyone in the time of need as it is a jungle and
those who want to get ahead will have to beat someone in order to get
ahead...."

I think you are mixing many different issues here.   Of course there is economic crisis in the world.   But what does that have to do with democracy?

Democracy, means rule of majority with recognition, respect and protection by law of rights of minority.  The actual greek word means "rule of people" but that is the more refined definition.

As people covers a wide spectrum of economic/social/cultural groups, the "rule" therefore is defined as:

--Repect/protection by law of basic human rights (regardless of economic/social/cultural background).

--Accountability of those in charge:  via election and also via separation of various branches to enforce checks and balance.

If we look at various countries and government, obviously we don't see a perfect match, but at least we can see which one is *better* than the others by:

--The basic rights that the citizens enjoy

--How checks and balances is implemented.

Here we have a wide range from most democratic (say Finland or Norway) to least, say (Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanestan, many in Afriac).

But the basic principle of an accountable government happens to be a very sound one, where most of the people living in a country which does not adhere to this basic principles would leave their country in favor of countries which do.

A person in Iran, may be busy with day-to-day life issues, but unless they re-architect their system, to have a democratic government, their effort will be a wastful one.   Our history proves that many times over.

Also, because they dont have the time or the knowledge should not prevent us from engaging in these discussions.

"Aynak"; Democracy as

"Aynak"; Democracy as majority of people on earth imagines will never ever exist or can be achieved. As long as oligarchs like USA, UK, EU,,etc and people behind them exist and are allowed to operate, there will never be democracy anywhere. This subject is too complex to explain in a post but I will give you the following information in order to get the picture. As mentioned most Governments are corporations operating for profit, USA, IRAN, EU countries, CHINA to name a few. What are they fighting for, $$$$$MONEY$$$$$. As long as there is currency or money in the form that it exists, there will be corruption and mischief. Simple example; if you went down to the store to buy a T shirt and the man says I got the best T shirts for $10, he is a sales man. Even if he knew there is cheaper or better T shirt down the street he is not going to tell you because then he would lose his job. He can’t be honest and a salesman at the same time. Man goes to a doctor and he is told his kidney has to come out. Does the kidney needs to be removed or the doctor needs to pay for his villa in Cancun, Mexico? You see as long as we live in a monetary system there can never ever be honesty and truth. Even if one tries, at one point or another because he/she has to live and compete, he/she will have to keep the truth to self or lie or misinform in order to survive. This system has come a long way and is very difficult to break down. Look at the world today. There is economic crisis everyone. No one has time to even think about the solution of Democracy, especially in Iran with so much pressure on public with high cost of goods, petrol, etc. we're all prostitutes of this system, chipping off each other, trying to make a buck. As time goes by, you will see that in reality no one will ever help anyone in the time of need as it is a jungle and those who want to get ahead will have to beat someone in order to get ahead. Look at what they teach at school even in universities. Compete, become successful for your self and then compete some more to get ahead. This competition is going to kill us. Imagine were would we be if research companies shared information instead of hiding it from each other so that they can make the bigger profit even if it means that it can save someone's life. The current monetary or money system has to go. We need to move towards a incentive based system. There are enough resources on earth to put roof over everyone's head, feed and provide health care and education for everyone and some more. But they have to make money from what I just wrote which is the basic necessities of humans, Roof, food, fresh air, health, education, etc. Democracy can never exists when %5 of the population on earth owns %90 of its wealth and resources. Get the picture? If you wish to find out more, please watch David Icke and his videos titled “beyond the cutting edge (1+2+3)”, also watch social Pathology, Zeitgeist 1+2 by Peter Joseph and my favorite “Venus project London Lecture 1+2”.  all available on Google video. Money=competition=No Democracy. Injustice and lack of democracy somewhere means injustice and lack of democracy everywhere. As Gandhi stated: “Democracy is an impossible thing until the power is shared by all, but let not democracy degenerate into mobocracy. My notion of democracy is that under it the weakest should have the same opportunity as the strongest. To safeguard democracy the people must have a keen sense of independence, self-respect and their oneness. In true democracy every man and women is taught to think for himself or herself.” May his soul, Rest in Peace.

Re:What happened with the Oil revenues in Iran?

"Now do you think they care to explain anything or what others think about how they mismanage these resources?"

This is why democracy, is the only solution.   This means if we want progress, we need to have accountability, checks and balances.   But checks and balances and accountabity only exists within a system that sees its legitamcy by the consensus of people.   Where as despots, past and present do not feel they should be held to account, and they like to act by arbitrary rule.

Re: The Price

Even though the market price of oil during Khatami was more like 18-30 range, but much of the contracts were long term, prior to Khatami.   For instance they locked in some 10-15 years contracts, most of which expired during the second Khatami terms.  These were made during Rafsanjani, and during the Iran-Iraq war.

If you look at IMF numbers, Irans revenue increased almost 6 times between 1995 to 2005.

By that token 20% of the lump sum would be obviously 6 times bigger.  Simply put, they should have added at least 60 billions to the reserved so far, given that projected oil revnue will make the income more like 80 times that of Khatami's time.

Re: The Price

duplicate of above

What happened with the Oil revenues in Iran?

Same thing that has happened to their culture, morality and humanity. Does anyone for 1 second believe that this government is legitimate and working for its citizens? Perhaps it has any sanctified or holy belief to offer?

One also has to understand that Ahmadinejad is only the front man for the oligarchs in Iran. He only has the power to run his mouth and embrace himself and the Government. Other than that he has absolutely no power to exercise what so ever, similar to the President of United States. Governments like Iran and USA are both Corporations that are operating for their own profit and have nothing to do with the citizens of their perspective countries. In Iran Mullahs are the Oligarchs or CEO, In USA it is the Federal Reserve Bank which is a private bank, not part of the US government and functions for its own benefit/profit. To them it is business as usual. They run their perspective Governments to make more money for their own use and to advance their own cause. The citizens of these countries are simply there to be mostly financial supporters, whether they wish to be or not.

Take an example of the problem with Petrol cost in Iran. Due to the country’s mismanagement for the past 30 years, Iran does not have the capacity to produce Petrol for its own use. Despite UN sanctions, they still import Petrol from Turkey, Venezuela and few other countries. Here is the big shocker; Iranian Government adds a percentage for its own profit when they sell it at the pump to their own citizens. Then they recently announced the elimination of the Petrol Smart card and the ration, substituting it with the extremely high priced petrol in an open market. But why did they do this? Despite the shortage of Petrol for internal use, Iran also announced in September 2010 that they have begun exporting Petrol. Again, why? Answer is simple, PROFIT. They make more money from a foreign buyer who is also getting a good deal and at the same time pays more than what people in Iran pay at the pump. Coupled with UN sanctions which has begun to take its toll on the people of Iran (not the Government), The citizens of Iran will always end up paying for their Government’s unjust, immoral and uneducated behavior. This shows the amount of respect and how much this government cares about the people of Iran.

Now do you think they care to explain anything or what others think about how they mismanage these resources?

The price

of oil from early 90's to 2004 ranged in 20-25 (give or take) with peak above $50 in early 2000's and not $8-12. In last several years it has gone below $40 at a few stretches. There were many other factors in Khatami's claimed surplus as well. I did not argue the legitimacy of the need to follow the law or that we should have a surplus; or at least spend it on increasing number of poor. Certainly, claiming a surplus by AN & co will not be credible or solve multitude of structural problems.

I simply made an observation. There was no comparing of pre islamic governments with the disaster of IR for sure.

The only B.S. here is your tone and attitude.

Oktaby

Re: My question

No I made no such claim.   I have no doubt we have never had accountable government, neither in Islamic Regime nor before it, except for brief periods.   But after last government (Khatami) Iran had over 10 Billion is reserve.   That is a fact.   Now contribution to that reserve has stopped.  This inspite of average oil price of 8-12 dollars then to 70-120$ range during Ahamdi Nejad.

It would be better to discuss specifics.   Making general statements, without back up costs nothing.   But amounts to B.S.

Your question

implies that AN's or governments & power structures preceding him were ever law abiding, accountable or reasonable.

Oktaby