Bijan A M

A View from A Jew

Hi to everyone!!! great to see open debates.

I'm a Jew from the West who has family in Israel. My uncle, who married into the family, fled to Israel from Iraq, and met my aunt, who was studying there.

Iran and Israel have in fact been allies for thousands of years, since Iran's great civilization (King Cyrus) helped Jews rebuild their temple. Since Roman exile, daily Jewish prayer has included asking for a return to Israel. Personally, as a Jew, I still believe in maintaining that alliance with Iran and its people, if possible.

A few things I wanted to mention:

Israel would never want to commit genocide against Iran. That is absolutely insane, and I have no clue how on earth anyone would think that. No group in Israel wants that, not even the extreme ones.

On whether Israel should exist:

NOTE 1) About 800,000 Jewish refugees from the middle east fled to Israel around 1948 alone. 40% of Israeli Jews are Arab Jews or their descendents. They faced serious violence, death threats in Arab lands and fled to Israel:

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Ar...

I'm guessing most of you probably were told Israel is an all-white state, but whites are a minority. (African Jews also fled to Israel). My favorite Israeli singer is a decendent of Arab Jews: //bit.ly/83UbT9

NOTE 2) Forget religion- Israelis have a unique culture, and thats why they have a right to exist...

Think of how annoying it is when people confuse Iran with its Arab neighbours. Like Israel, Iran has a unique culture and values and cannot be destroyed or merged with some other country. Nor can, say, Pakistan (made in 1947).

On that premise alone, Israel has a right to be Israel with its own unique values based on Jewish roots.

NOTE 3) Israel was official in 1948 but Jews were a majority in Jerusalem since 1860, before Canada's confederation. So this is not something new that can just be undone.

NOTE 4) The claim that Israel is evil.. Well, there is obviously another side to this story, I suggest everyone researches that. Here are just a few things, I can't possibly name them all:

- Israel was attacked in 1948 when it declared independence, and the surrounding Arab nations attacked for the purpose of complete destruction.

- Israel was hit with thousands of Kasam rockets per year for 7 years, and kept trying diplomacy with Palestinians, before Operation Cast Lead. Compare that to Britain! Not a single rocket hit Britain and they are killing thousands of civilians per year in Iraq and Afghanistan. Imagine what your own country would do if even 10 rockets were lobbed onto residential areas.

I believe the author of this article is correct:

If you talk about destroying a country, it gets paranoid and only makes them take a harder line. You don't take a peace offer seriously when it is from someone calling for your destruction.

Dear Ayhab

As a matter of respect I write this note so that there will be no misunderstanding about my post.

Sir, you are being a little unfair to accuse me of labeling or name calling. I have read your posts very closely and I thought I responded to the best of my ability with as civilized a tone as I could. I am sorry if it has failed your standards.

Sir, you have engaged in a debate that was not the subject of my post. It was not my intent to judge the actions of the Israeli government. You can read through my other comments to get a sense of where I stand. The jest of my point is that if you believe in elimination of Israel and deny her right to exist, you are not promoting peace. This does not mean blanket endorsement of everything Israel does or has done. I also assume your condemnation of what the Israelis have done is not a blanket endorsement of what the extremist Palestinians have done.

With regard to your question, none of those states have faced the real threat of elimination, to engage in wars. You can call it anything you want. And, you may label me an extremist, which is fine, because you are entitled to your opinion. But, it is my opinion that Isreal would have been eliminated had it not been for her strong armed forces. It still faces the same threat, being militarily, socially or demographically. None of those threats are conducive to peace. Please refer to my other posts to have a better understanding of my position.

Best regards,

Bijan

Bijan A M

You say[If you (and anyone else) cannot foresee a peaceful co-existence between
a Jewish state and Palestinian nation, then you promote (consciously or
sub-conciously) the same line that IRI has been screaming.]

Seems like if you do not get an[yes or no] answer to your main questions, you are going to start your labeling and name calling process, as you have. 

Lets see IF I get you to read my comments AGAIN, they might help you to sort out the appropriate label you are going to assign to me:

----------------------------------------------------------------------

My first comment:

by capt_ayhab on Mon May 18, 2009 08:40 AM PDT

This is an interesting and provocative question, however in my opinion it has not been asked properly.

First of all, EVERYONE[Muslims, Jews, Christians, Baha'is EVERYONE], 
have the God given right to freedom peace and security. Hence we need
to separate rights of every human being from the political bodies[such
as IR, Zionist, communist etc.] to be able to look at this objectively.

In past 60 years since British mandate, Israel has been in war with
every single one of their neighbors. She has occupied lands, terrorized
people, killed, bombed, separated, discriminated, starved, raped and
ransacked everything they could get their hand on.

What has been the reaction to this by neighboring countries, in
particular Palestine? Their reaction has been as any other human being
would react, to defend their LIVES and FAMILIES to the best they
could. 

Result? 60 years of aggression[which is called self defense], 60
years of resistance[ which is labeled terrorism]. total instability in
the region and the world, and 1000's upon 1000's dead from both sides.,
and millions displaced and homeless.

Opposition has never been toward Jews, but the Israeli and Zionist
policies. Israel and extremist Zionist has stripped the people around
them from right to exist and their actions in past 60 years been proof
of this. Why should not Palestinians have the same right of existence?
Why should not Iran have all the means to protect herself? WHY?

These are the reason why so much animosity have been directed toward
Israel, and not the Jews. Israeli policy has been to silence every
criticism of her policies, even when they are Israeli national. proof?
Latest house bill in USA regarding hate crimes. Why criticizing Israeli
actions and Zionist occupation policy should be a hate crime?

To me, Zionist and IR are of same cloth. To me both are criminal
entities which must be rectified. It is up to the nationals of both
countries to take steps in correcting this disease which is called
extremism, whether it is Jewish extremism or Muslim extremism.

Regards

-------------------------------------------------------------------

My second comment:

by capt_ayhab on Tue May 19, 2009 12:21 PM PDT

thanks for response. 

You ask a very unfair question by saying[Do they support Ahmadinejad,
IRI, Hamas and other extremists to wipe out Israel off the map? OR, to
recognize its existence and find a compromise to live in peace.]

One can not and should not equate criticism of Israeli policies with
condoning or supporting of Ahmadinejd. These are two separate issues,
for one, Ahmadnejad did not exist in 1953, nor in 1967. Whether one
supports him or not[I do not] has no baring on what has occurred in
past 60 years. You asking that question resembles GW Bush saying[your
are either with us or against us, no middle ground!].

Back to the answer I gave, Jews have as much right for existence and
Muslims do and as Christians do, given that they give the same right to
the others. However, sadly enough this is not what Israel wants. Lets
be honest, why should Netanyahu provoke Amalek[Genocide] on Iran? Just
because Iran seeks defensive arsenal for her protection?

Ahmadinejads remarks, I'll be the first one to say that is totally
stupid and insensitive[to say the least], whether it has been taken out
of context, mistranslated, misquoted,  or foolishly uttered by himself,
has no baring on what Israel has done in the region.

As to formation of some of the countries you mentioned, can you
kindly do me a favor and cite some of these countries that have been at
war with their neighbors since their formation? once you provide that
information, I shall answer you accordingly. Otherwise I respectfully
have to call the comparison irrelevant and baseless.

Regards

------------------------------------------------------------

Parts that pretain to answer are highlighted. I do have  a suggestion for you though Mr. Bijan, If you do not like my answers refrain fromregular game of name calling. I do not play that game.

In my second comment[italics] I had ask a question, which I will appreciate your reply.

Regards

-YT

I assumed

This thread faded away a while back. Accidentally ran into a few new comments that deserve a response.

Jaleho: again, with all due respect, if I strip your comment off the insults (whether intentional or not), I gather (right or wrong) that you support or advocate a single state solution. Where you and I defer is that I don’t think and sincerely believe that a single state solution is achievable. While it may be the ideal solution the facts and realities on the ground suggests that it is impossible to attain. However, a two-state solution (if found and implemented) that results in co-existence in peace for many generations (maybe centuries) could eventually lead to a single state.

Whether you call Israel the Jewish state or whatever, I call it a safe haven for those who have been persecuted for their religious belief, be it Jew, Christian, Bahaii or atheist…..Aside from Bahaii’s under IRI’s rule, Jews have been the most persecuted minorities because of their religion (I hope you don’t dispute this historical fact). Please don’t try to offer justification for their persecution because that’s the subject of a different debate.

As a strong believer in the two-state solution I think any thought or comment that provokes destruction of Israel, is counter productive and prolongs the misery of many lives.

Anan1111: Son, for your information I am not an Israeli. I have never lived there, never visited, have never had a flight with stop-over in Israel. I doubt even if my flights from Iran to the US passes over that part of the world. I don’t even have family or even relatives that live there. Having said that, I consider myself a Zionist according to my own definition, which is, the recognition of a state which is a safe haven for Jews or any other minorities that are persecuted for their religious beliefs. Do I support every action that Israel has taken to defend her existence? No. Do I support construction of settlements? No. Do I blame Israel for why there is no peace in ME? Hell..NO. Extremists Palestinians like Hamas and their proxies Hezbollah and IRI are the main reason why there is no end to the conflict. They rejected many opportunities for peace.

Sir, please think before posting your comment

Peace

Perfect Example of Why

Palestinians have been suffering for the past 60 years under a brutal occupation and apartheid.  You have an Israeli Zionist (Bijan) fighting with a militant Palestinain (Mola Nassredin), and a rabid Anti-Semitic Hezbollahi with an agenda (Jaleho) throws herself into the mix to stir things up some more.

Poor Palstinians.  With a cast of characters like this, they will be suffering for another 100 years...what a shame for the human race.  

Dear Bijan, you asked a simple question

"Should Israel exist?" By clear indication that you mean should Israel, The Jewsih State, exist? and I offered a clear answer:

"NO, why should a Jewsih state exist?"

I think you have repeated this propaganda of "we need a Jewsih state" so much that you never ponder what a ridiculous proposition that is! I tried to bring out the lack of logic in that sentence which every parrot in the west has been repeating without ever thinking how illogical it is, by reminding you that no other religion minority has such claims, such as Seikhs with more than Jewish population, or Zoroastrians or Assyrians with a more ancient history than Jews. It is this supramacist bullshit of "Jews are entitled to..... even if it is other people's land" that you brought up again, and I wanted to make it clear that the pillar which it stands on is a weak.

 AND YOU DID NOT GET MY POINT, again Bijin, I am really disappointed at you! You didn't get the point that there are countries with a certain religious MAJORITY, but these states were not created for that particular majority. Iran has always been Iran for Iranians, if it has more Muslims it is because Middle East is predominantly Muslim. The same is true with many Christian countries. There are 2.2 billion Christians , a 1.8 billion Muslim, a billion Hindus...a pissant figure of 16 million jews in comaprison or 20 million Seikhs, etc. It is very natural that the smaller minorities just fit as minorities in the predominantly Muslim, hinu, Buddhaist or Christian countries. Why such a natural thing seems so strange to you, and why do think that of all the minorities Jews should be given a superior rights AT THE EXPENSE OF STEALING OTHER PEOPLE'S RIGHT, when other minorities don't have?!

Now, Israel exist right now, so if it should disappear is a totally different question where I have plenty of times given my opinion about on this site clearly. One short one is :two wrongs don't make a wrong and I don't think that you should kick out the Jews just because they have kicked out the Palestinians out of their land. There's plenty of land for all present natives of Israel, be it Jew, Muslim, Christian. You should drop the asinine requirement of "Jewish only," and then all people can live there peacefully and without supramacy of one religion over the other. If for that to happen the state of Israel as a Jewsih-only-state must disappear, so it should, just like the Soviet Union disappered. It doesn't mean that the Jews would disappear!! The RACIST STRUCTURE WILL, like it or not. I don't care if the name changes, but the structure will, by history's mandate of apartheid and colonialism being dead in the upcoming centuries.

Mr. Ayhab

Looks like I have failed to make my point clear. This blog is not about defending the policies of any Israeli government or justifying their actions and reactions with Palestinians. That is (and has been) all in itself the subject of many, many lengthy debates. The jest of my post and the simple question (which you think is not fair) was to see if there is any room in your belief system for any state called Israel. It is a question to gauge tolerance for the sake of peace.

If you (and anyone else) cannot foresee a peaceful co-existence between a Jewish state and Palestinian nation, then you promote (consciously or sub-conciously) the same line that IRI has been screaming. There is no undermining the types of comments made by IRI (be it out of context or even hollow threats). If your existence depends on it, there is no room (absolutely none) for horse play.

Sir, Israel exists and there is nothing you or I can do about it. The best we can do is to promote compromise and be a force against extremists of either side.

We need to be FAIR….

FAIR, where are you?,  please chime in, I respect your views and opinions

Kaveh

Thanks for your sharp and to the point comments. Aside from this particular blog, I find myself in your camp on many other debates you have participated on this site. I may not be as vocal as you are but appreciate your takes.

Thanks   

Jaleho

Sir, thank you for stopping by….

There was no doubt that you are the follower of Ahmadinejad’s line towards destruction of Isreal. That would be evident from every post that you have on this site. With all due respect, sir, it looks like you didn’t get my point and my drift….

The whole point was about co-existence and peace. Israel exists and is recognized by most as a sovereign nation. You keep on screaming against Zionism without even knowing the meaning of it. You adore Noam Chumsky, a liberal Zionist. Sir, do we have good Zionists and bad Zionists?

By advocating destruction and hate you will be shooting yourself in the foot. How hypocritical of you to support with all passion existence of a fascist Islamic state but condemn existence of a democratic Jewish state?

I am sure you get my drift…

Bijan A M

thanks for response. 

You ask a very unfair question by saying[Do they support Ahmadinejad, IRI, Hamas and other extremists to wipe out Israel off the map? OR, to recognize its existence and find a compromise to live in peace.]

One can not and should not equate criticism of Israeli policies with condoning or supporting of Ahmadinejd. These are two separate issues, for one, Ahmadnejad did not exist in 1953, nor in 1967. Whether one supports him or not[I do not] has no baring on what has occurred in past 60 years. You asking that question resembles GW Bush saying[your are either with us or against us, no middle ground!].

Back to the answer I gave, Jews have as much right for existence and Muslims do and as Christians do, given that they give the same right to the others. However, sadly enough this is not what Israel wants. Lets be honest, why should Netanyahu provoke Amalek[Genocide] on Iran? Just because Iran seeks defensive arsenal for her protection?

Ahmadinejads remarks, I'll be the first one to say that is totally stupid and insensitive[to say the least], whether it has been taken out of context, mistranslated, misquoted,  or foolishly uttered by himself, has no baring on what Israel has done in the region.

As to formation of some of the countries you mentioned, can you kindly do me a favor and cite some of these countries that have been at war with their neighbors since their formation? once you provide that information, I shall answer you accordingly. Otherwise I respectfully have to call the comparison irrelevant and baseless.

Regards

-YT

Bijan

Mola cannot or will not answer the question because:

A) If he does, he will no longer have any reason to state his unabashed hatred for Jewish people; or

B) Mola and the shotor are not on speaking terms at the moment, so the shotor won't advise him on how to answer the question.

Mola has demonstrated clearly that he is unable to think or speak for himself. At least Gol-dust comes right out and trashes Jews, letting everyone know where they stand with him.

As for me, yes, you concluded correctly. I think a two-state solution is probably the best thing. The clock can't be rewound back to before 1948, but the original concept was to have two states. As to where the borders would be, that would have to be figured out by the principals. And if I were in the position to do so, I'd make it clear that any and all foreign aid, which neither of them can live without, is contingent upon them collectively and individually removing their heads from their asses and getting it done once and for all. No Hamas, no Hezbollah, and certainly no IRI. This BS about them being the "duly elected representatives of the Palestinian people" is a bigger load of horseshit than the reports saying Saddam had WMDs.

Get the suits and the pencil pushers from both Israel and the PNA only. Lock them in a room and feed them only pork until they end this shit.

Wow way to support your argument

Should people like you be allowed to contribute to civilized discussions? No! Period!

Bijan - looks like you missed the point

Condescending and arrogant tone?!?!?! Give me a break

Looks like your point actually has been to see how many

Condescending and arrogant tone?!?!?! Give me a break

Looks like your point actually has been to see how many people sympathies with you and how many don't. And since you didn't get our point, let me repeated for you. As a Zionist regime No, it should not exist which BTW is the statement that I have heard from IRI.

I support peace whole heartedly but only if it is based on just and fairness. I would support an Israel based on 1967 internationally recognized borders and also justly dealing with the refugees.

Mehrdad

NO, why should a Jewish state exist?

at the expense of land and homes of others?!

Iranian Muslims, jews, Christians..live in a dominantly Muslim Iran.

American Christian, Jews, Muslims...live in a dominantly Christian country of USA.

These countries were not created for a particular religion, get the point? 

When you are ready to give up Israeli land so that Assyrians, Zoroastrians, Sikhs...and other religion minorities who do not have a COUNTRY of their own, then I'll accept to give Palestinian land to Jews so that they can have a country of their own. Not that it belongs to me to give it away, if you get my drift ;-)

Yes, off course

Israel has the right to exist so does Palestine but until Palestinians stop becoming victims of terrorist group like Hamas, having country would remain a dream.
Sure there are extremist/racist in every country or regime but at least its not like our own country where the whole system is based on racist/fascism ideology who not only treat its people as second class citizens but even worst (murder, imprisonment and etc...

No!

Period!

"you got off easy without answering the question?"

Hazrate shotor pointed out to me.

"Neither did he Hajagha". I replied.

"Then we are back at square one again!" said the camel.

"exactly, ahsannat Hajagha" I replied.

And he went back reading the latest results of yesterday's camel race in Bahrain. 

Bijan jan,

I really like your analogy. My answer is yes 2 state solution is the best way to reach peace at this time to just stop the bloodshed and hope for a more just Israeli government. In the future (lets say in 50 years) maybe all ME countries should become like European Union and then in about 200 to 300 years later the whole world become one country and all people become its citizen. All countries become States of the world. That is what I like see happen.

Thank you Mola

You (or your shotor) answered the question (although, indirectly). From your response I gather that you are not advocating IRI’s line for destruction of Israel and believe that there is solution for peace. Isreal of 48, 67 or now is irrelevant. If you believe in peace, it will happen, sooner or later.

As far as Netanyahu, that will be the subject of a different debate. No, I don’t believe in destructive position against Iran by anyone. But, I have hard time criticizing those who are faced with a real threat of destruction.

Consult your shotor and see what he has to say.

Bijan, Which state of Israel?

It seems like you did not read what of wrote. Which state of Israel you want me to recognize?

Israel of 1948?

Israel of 1967?

The present Israel?

So go and decide which Israel you want us to reconize before repeating Netanyahu's words. And while you are at it I ask you: Do you defend Netanyahu's position on Iran? 

So...Mola,

What’s you answer? Do you support Ahmadinejad and IRI’s line in wiping Isreal off the map or not? We have heard all the crimes that this state (which you along with many others question its legitimacy) has done in the past 61 years. Given all these parameters, do you think that Israel should be wiped out OR should it continue to exist in peace with a new Palestinian nation?

Go talk to your shotor and get the answer…

Dear Kaveh

You are absolutely right. But, I just wanted to see how the people around here feel about peace. Would I be wrong to assume your response means you are  a supporter of two state solution?

Dear Captain

I sincerely respect many of your balanced post. I am not here to defend the actions of state of Israel or to pass judgment on its legitimacy. Whether I agree or disagree with your characterization of state of Israel is subject of a different debate.

My question is, now that this state is formed, should it exist? I realize it is hypothetical and has no meaning or weight , but it is a legitimate debate to see where those who come to this site stand? Do they support Ahmadinejad, IRI, Hamas and other extremists to wipe out Israel off the map? OR, to recognize its existence and find a compromise to live in peace.

You and others, don’t come out so passionately about formation of Pakistan, Iraq, Syria, Jordan,…..Every one of those events has led to dislocation of many minorities. Thousands upon thousands of Jews, Bahais, Christians,… have left their lands, possessions and belongings and moved on. They created a new life without strapping dynamite around their chest to get what was rightfully theirs. They moved on and enjoyed life, progressed, and helped humanity to progress. You talk about refugee camps, if you think about it, Israel is in reality a refugee camp.

What would be wrong to swallow my pride and look into future and start building a nation that would be envy of the world? Let those ass-hole bullies have a piece of my property. Isn’t that what many dislocated people out of Pakistan, Syria, Iraq,… have done? Am I too simplistic? The hell with the likes of ID and all who perpetuate hate.

This is not to endorse the extremists in Israel. The hell with them too, as they are not who will determine the fate of peace.

My apologies...

for not attending to my own blog. Really sorry, it was beyond my control. 

Samsam:    Thanks for being a true Iranian. I respect you as a true patriot.

Irandokht, Mehrdad, and anyone with the same belief….. 

The point of my post was not to defend or condemn what the Israeli government is doing or has done. My question was “Should Israel Exist?”.  Do you recognize any kind of Israeli state? Or do you believe in IRI’s rhetoric that she should be wiped off the map?

Ms Irandokht, this is not “naneh man gharibam” or victimization at all. It is a simple question: Do you believe in existence of any form of a Jewish state anywhere in the world? Do you believe in any prospect for peace in ME? I believe in such a prospect.

Your condescending and arrogant tone (and all other voices like yours) will never help and eventually has to die-out before peace to can come to life.

Who am I to decide if Israel should exist or not!

Lets listen to what the representative of Palestinian government say: "The existance of which Israel do you want me to recognize? Israel of 1948 when hundreds of thousands terroized Palestinians had to leave their home and become refugees in Gaza, Lebnon, Syria and Jordan?"

He continued: "Do you want me to recognize the Israel of 1967 when it occupied the West bank and Golan Heights of Syria? Or do you want me to recognize the existence of Israel that has built hundreds of thousands of home on our (Palestinian) land since 1967?" This is what he said when he was asked that question.

Go and chew on that for a while and come up with your answer and then I'll answer your question.

Mola...turning it into his personal soapbox again

Mola, can you read?

The question is should Israel exist. It does not call for a summarization of the past 61 years as seen through either your myopic eyes, or those of your beloved shotor.

For a change, why not answer the question.

Israel, Playing the role of a “victim” again

Israeli line of deceit is always predictable and as follow. They say: "If you recognize us we’ll be good to you, we’ll return West Bank and Golan Height, We stop confiscating Palestinian land, we free their prisoners, etc."

But lets look at the pattern of Israelis behavior toward the peace, Palestinians and their neighbors:

1.     They grab Palestinians land and build new settlement on them, which results the  Palestinians’ reactions and resistance. 

 2.          Israeli army and the settlers’ militia attack and destroy Palestinians’ crops and their homes, they assassinate Palestinians leaders and arrest as many as they please.

3.      Pressure builds from the world community against Israeli aggression.

4.      Israel announces she would be ready to make peace only "if Palestinians recognize the existence of Israel."

5.      They get United States and Europeans involved in the process and while everybody is occupied by the Idea of peace they keep on building their settlements on the occupied Palestinian land and call it “natural growth”.

6.      A new “peace treaties” is negotiated and signed by Israel and Palestinians and a few others giving more land and more control over the occupied land and its native people to Israel. 

7.      One would think this would make Israelis happy. But no, a new faction comes to power and reneges all the old treaties, hence more assassinations, more arrests, more land confiscations and more settlement building activities.  

Dear sir you are feeding us the same nonsense. This is the deceitful game that Israel has been playing for the last 61 years and it has been documented extensively by independent sources. Israel's goal is to ethnically cleanse the occupied Palestine. President Obama and even the catholic church have protested Israel's treatment of Palestinians.

Not the way it is now!

Right now Israel is a brutal, racist and unjust state that is ruled by Jewish extremists.

If that changes, anything is possible.

But do you think the USA, Fanatic Jews in Israel and the "Jewish Lobby" would allow it any time soon?

It will eventually change and injustice will end. Remember Stalin, Nebukadnezar, Saddam, the South African government and many before them? Israel's time will come too.

Cheers!

The Question Asked By This Title

should have been asked prior to 1948.

Fact remains, it does exist and it has the right to exist, whether we like it or not.

Peopole have a right to live but not systems

People in Israel or anywhere in the world have a right to exist and they even a right to a decent living. But this does not justify taking out other people's rights. You can ask yourself what is wrong with me owning a Mercedes. Well, nothing - but as long as you don't buy it from money that was stolen from someone else or somehow obtained through fraud, tricks, lies, murder, etc.

In this day and age where the world is getting smaller and smaller very fast, I don't know why people want to segregate themselves anyway. This is such a backward way of thinking. In a few years or decades all these distinctions will vanish anyway. Jewish, Muslim, Iranian, Israeli, etc, these are identities that will loose their meaning as they are extremely arbitrary definitions and they are not true separating lines between people. So why not work towards universal peace and cooperation with freedom of religion, speech, etc? Wouldn't that be a much better goal? Isn't that in fact what we all love about great places like the US?