jimzbund

JimzBund's suggestion

I have  a suggestion for Iranian.com  regarding deleting the posts. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to either edit the offensive part of the posts or just overwritiung that part with special characters or something to make it known that where the offense lies or move the post to a transit area and let the user know what the offnse is and give him the option of changing and posting or forgrtting about it. I know it requires more involvement but I am sure people will come to know after Three tries what the norm is . most of my posts or replies are instant and for replies if they are deleted I don't even know what my reply was as I don't keep a copy ! .

JJ's remarks made things more clear and hopefully we get something out of this productive exchanges.

Thanks to Rosie for keeping the subject lively and I am sure we will all be better posters and editors  as a result.

Bund, Jimz Bund

JJ, we're overlapping and I'm running out of breath between YOUR

blog and Jimz's.  Please answer my question to you now on THIS also posted on YOUR blog about whether to have this "vigorous debate" HERE or THERE or BOTH.  Personally I think both would become a completely redundant diffused confusing and time-wasting mess.

Consider respect

Thank you for the vigorous debate! Here are some of my thoughts:

* Refrain from using vulgarity or aggressive, threatening language. SOMETIMES we cannot avoid using a four-letter word here and there, and obviously many posts on this site can make enrage one group or another. But the purpose here is to have a dialogue among ourselves. WE THE PEOPLE. And WE come in various colors and beliefs. We must learn to COMMUNICATE our views without trashing everything about another human being that simply has a different view than ours.

* Instead of attacking authors, tackle the issues presented in their writings.

* You cannot call authors or posters mercenaries, agents of the CIA or the IRI or whatever. Be more imaginative.

* Don't take a detour to Karbala! Stick to the topic of the page.

* Do not copy-paste entire articles as comments. Instead please give the title, author, source and the link of the article you want people to read.

These are all general guidelines. Sometimes harsh, vulgar, threatening, stupid, racist comments do get published. But these are only exceptions.

There are no absolute rules for moderating comments. Editors are all human and they have to make subjective decisions.

We are all doing our best to preserve an atmosphere that encourages civil debate and discussion.

Those of you who got deleted or edited, I'm sorry. I may go too far sometimes. I know I do. But this is a two-way street. You should also look at some of your comments and rethink the way you respond to your opponents or just other human beings.

Let's each of us try to be the bigger, better person. Let's show respect.

Che meedoonam... I really don't have the answer.

j

Samson thanks so much for your support

Ohters have voiced the same opinon to me and I tend to agree, as I see my role on this website to be primarily that of a MEDIATOR moreso than a MODERATOR and I do my moderation with the goal of  mediation.  As an example of what I see as mediation please see the long post I just wrote on Soraya Sepapour-Ulrich's article on Obama addressed to her, Mammad and Jamshid.  I refer to the third and last section of the post.

You and I are on perhaps diametrically opposed sides of the political spectrum but I want to tell you that I find the information on ancient  (and pre-ancient) Iranian cultural history and anthropology, which is a great passion of mine, to be (to my knowlege) unparalled on this website except by ZION, who, coincientally, is also politically at odds with me.

actualy rosie being a moderator makes perfect sense

she is american and impartial to all sides ..that,s what i asked the site couple of weeks ago..didn,t know it already was in effect..good job Rosie...

Yeah Mustang I'm a moderator and / PS JJ

if you have a problem with thatdon't just complain HERE.  Make SURE you complain at the contact us button at the bottom of the home page.  And I'm not gonna bother to correcttypos on this post because frankly you don't desrve my time, and Nadia is right, this is WORK and I WORK here for fFREE 

 An American president?  Why not?  Iraq has one.  Afghanistan has one. Iran is FLANKED on both sides by American presidents.  SOme of you IRanians hold AMerican Presidens responsible for every single thing hat ever happened in IRan since World War II.  LIberate Iran!  Surgical strike needed by an American President!  My granddaughter sneezed!  An AMerican PResident made her do it!  And as SOON as an AMerican comes to this site then some of you browbeat and crucify and ridicule them to death to to drive them away  And the ones who pretend they're being nice are the most...the most...uh...offensive of all.  Sorry, I had OTHER much

more ACCURATE things to call you but I'm not allowed anymore because if I do JJ may come into the thread and give us a "teacher-like and condesce4nding speech" like the ones which you accuse me of, or even close the thread.  And WE (yeah, WE) were the ones who CONVINCED him to have a moderation system to BEGIN with and some of US (yeah US) think the see-saw's tipping too far and WE (yeah WE) want to HELP to make sure the website doesn't lose hte values of FREE SPEECH (which by the way come from the US Constitution which was presided over by an American President.

Now, get out of your mustang, put on your hiking boots, start climbing the hill of this thread from the BEGINNING (CCAREFULLY, VERY CAREFULLY and come back when you UNDERSTAND my position FULLY and then I'll be HAPPY to have a dialog with you all day long until I drop. As long as I'm SURE that you know EXACTLY wher eI'm coming from so I dont have to waste time repeating myself).

PS JJ, if you read this do you understand why IMHO "sarcasm" not being allowed is not a RULE that should be strictly adhered to as you said (you did, it's IMPLICIT in your post  on Kaveh's last blog, "Someone is on a Power Trip.")  It is at BEST a GUIDELINE for something to avoid in general but not always, so you CAN'T say sarcasm is grounds for deletion without sounding pedantic and rigid and definitely NOT like a civil libertarian). For crissake, the NEW YORK TIMES EDIORIAL PAGES carry sarcastic pieces.  Somehow I don't think Thomas Paine would approve).

RostameDastAn

Let us set aside that part of your statement comes across as discriminatory.

Apparently, you have not heard of the  EEOC which has to do with employment issues (voluntary or paid work) in which discriminating against employees on the basis of race, sex, creed, religion, color, or national origin is against the law.

Now, please do post for us a list of what you believe should be the requirements for the job of moderator. Now, don't forget to also include a clear job description.

Solh va Doosti

Nadia

Rosie T. a moderator? What's next?

Why? Don't we have enough Iranians to moderate? No disrespect intended, but I'm offended by this. What's next? An American for President of Iran? I mean, this is an Iranian website. I'm particularly offended by her TONE that is teacher-like and condescending. But of course, she's gonna make a speech in her own defense right now :-((   ~

~ R.D.

Jimz, you know / Fan

there is one scenario you may not be aware of.  If your post to Soraya was ATTACHED to another post because you'd replied specifically to that post by clicking on the "reply" button/  then, if that first post got deleted yours would too.  I usually tell people that FIRST thing when they complain about a deletion but for some reason I didn't here, probably because this wa a whole BLOG, not the usual question on a post I'm used to.

In any case, I think probably you DIDN'T write that post as a reply to someone else on the thread, because you say the post you wrote to SORAYA, not to someone on the thread. Let me know.

 Fan:  I know.  I'm thinking the same thing myself.  what's next? I'm going to contact JJ about it.  I'msure he'll respond, sooner or later, that is.  But OTHER people should do that too, by writing to him at the Contact Us button on the bottom of the home page.

By the way, would you care for some popcorn while you watch the movie?

A ..Fan

To be honest I wasn't even aware that my post in reply to  .....Ulrich has been deleted until I read someone asking why it has been deleted as there was nothing personal in it. This got me questioning the wisdom or motive  behind this deletion as I am fairly new here and was just looking for an answer . Some veteran posters who have the history of deletions found  it necessary to add their voices . The whole thing is about being fair and square with evryone based on some published guidelines and not arbitrary deletions by  some editors or whoever just because they can which takes us back to " shol kon seft kon or bedeh o bestoon " game . We are all acting in good faith for the preservation of the Iranian.com to outgrow the limitations of some and be a open mike or manbar  for all.

Bund, Jimz Bund

?ored ....Khored

No personal attacks please ! I am very sensitive and can't tolerate character assassination ! I am not sure why some people feel obligated to drop by and whine about someone else whining ? ajab adamhayeh bikar o biari payda mishan !  just kidding, keep the fun going .

Bund, Jimz Bund

Just wanna say to all and jj if you're there

that I'm watching in the audience and liking what I see. Thanks Jimz for bringing up the topic.Hadda coupla nasty deletions myself and it really pissed me off. Wonder if jj's reading this and whether it's gonna really go somewhere or just be a lotta yak yak. I mean, after this blog, then what? JJ, if you're there, anyone, any ideas?

Bored: In brief:;

1  Correct.  Jimz and I NEED not reply, but we CAN if we WANT TO.

2.  Your TELLING us we should not reply to you is a PRIME example of the censorship you claim to so deplore.

3.  If you're so bored, WHY do you keep coming back here instead of going out and playing Frisbee?

4. As bored as you are, you come BACK to Jimz's OWN blog to tell him--who is NOT bored--not to post. My god. It's like telling someone they can't go back into their own house!

5.  You claim that your ridicule of this dialog is due to your satisfaction with JJ's decisions and policies and so we're all whiners if we question him. So then why are you QUESTIONING what JJ chooses to put on the home page?

I don't think you're BORED.  I think you're ENTERTAINING yourself here at the expense of other people.  So okay, scratch the Frisbee idea.

Anonymou

 It seems that most of the so called " matalak paroonis" or mudslingings are done by posters whose names start with anon.... and if there are some decent anons... they get stereotyped as one of them since me or I am sure many like me don't read the whole name after anon..... .Please get a shenasnameh ... by the way

JimzBund is my name and fame is my game  

Bund, Jimz Bund

Rosie T

I am new to this site and am not as familiar or involved as you are . I usually post or reply at work while doing my work and therefore don't have enough time or maybe patience to write or read in length which makes them at times unclear  ! I very much appreciate the posters who devote some time in arguing points or defending their posts. I hope to get some time to get to that stage . I thank JJ for providing this site for everyone to share their views and while it might take a while to be upto the standards but I am sure we are all gaining as we go through and this is how we find out what we are lacking. Thanks for all your care and concerns about the site and the suggestions which I am sure are being read and considered.

Bund, Jimz Bund

Bored.....

JJ:

Are you deliberately trying to attract attention to this silly post? Why aren't you letting it go away after three days? Or are you trying to show these complainers as the whiners that they are? Yawwwwnnnnn...

P.S. Rosie and Jimz need not reply.

"To all the Anons. Taking

"To all the Anons.

Taking cheap shots at regular posters who show concerns about the site that they care is not something to brag about".

Jimz,

I think you made an error in typing, for I hope you don't support misrepresentations with such incorrect generalizations and accusations. But if you do and it wasn't a typing error, then that's your position. You yourself are an Anon. too (JimzBund).

("To all the Anons.")

Jimz, well said! Afarin!

and CLEAR as a bell!  I couldn't have said it better myself and unfotuntely succintess such as yours is not my strong suit either..

Just ONE thing you said I differ with:  Yes, EXPECTAtIONS MUST be high.  "Ah but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?"  (I think it's Wordsworth).  However rules can ONLY apply to the STRUCTURE of the system. Ultimately, as I told you in my FIRST, tiiny LITTLE post her: EVERY human decision is in some sense arbitrary. Yours,mine, JJ's, MOther Theresa's, Gandhi's.

Rules can be SET for, for example, and I DO mean simply EXAMPLES::

how many moderators there are,who is a "chief editor" and who is not, what is the difference in their powers and their duties, and the necessity of transparent disclosure of who these people are, in a PUBLIC way, that is to say, a BLOG by JJ.  (I just found out in Kaveh's recent blog "Someone Is On a Power rip" that indeed, there are now "5 or 6, who's counting?" (as per JJ) with power to delete without JJ's final say-so,   

 That ALL blogs concerning moderation be read by JJ, and all editors, and commented on by them at least ONCE 

that all questions sent to JJ regarding moderation be replied to if only very briefly

that questions NOT be sent to the moderators unless funnelled to them by JJ, so as to avoid inundation since they're VOLUNTEERS and JJ is PAID however modestly to work here

andso forth.  To repeat, these are only EXAMPLE of the type of rules which CAN be set, not whixh SHOULD.

Guidelines however are difficult, tedious and EXTREMELY time-consuming to draw and I can assure you that they will at best be reached for for, but never grasped.  Because at the end of the day, moderation is an ART, not a science.  So it is best, in my opinion, to just have some hard and fast rules along with high expectations.

My two cents (or perhaps, I hope for someone, two dollars)..

Robin

to all the Anons +

 Taking cheap shots at regular posters who show concerns about the site that they care is not something to brag about. Some of you are complaining about others opinions and how dull it is then keep coming back for more ! ? You have the choice to read it or ignore it but just throwing something meaningless in is not serving any cause. We all care about the health of Iranian.com and want to see it progress and be a platform for the exchange of ideas and news free from any kind of vulgarity, extremism and abuse. I know it is a hard job to do and you can't please everyone but as long as the expectations are set and the rules and guidelines are clear for everyone then no one can complain. But in any case freedom for us Iranians may appear for the next generation as our generation is still the product of years of censorship and dictatorship of Shah and the Mullahs. Until then we will be happy to talk as long as don't get beaten up !!!!

Bund, Jimz Bund

Another Reader: MUCH ADO -- okay, to address you point by point

I GAVE my name below and pointed out that if you go to my little "room" here by clicking on Rosie T. in blue you could even find out my address and phone number.   I don't have to IMAGINE that I'm not a fake name with a picture, I believe in TRANSPARENCY in public discourse and here you are, lecturing about "identity" as a goldfish?

This is no PARADE.  This is WORK.  I was one of the people who worked VERY HARD to get JJ to IMPLEMENT moderation and if I feel the see-saw is tipping too much in the other direction, I have the right to work on that. Anyone does, of course, but I've EARNED that right.  And I TRULY believe that deleting Kaveh on Soraya's blog was an EXTREMELY unfair deletion.  My post there got deleted because it was a REPLY to Kaveh, not because I was "running my mouth." ANd JJ wouldn't answer me yes or no when I wrote him twice whether he'd done the deletion.  I SAID here that I support him but that doesn't mean it wasn't grossly unfair. And not for the first time. The other times WEREN'T to me but they were unfair, IMHO.

If I wanted the spotlight why would be here on what was just this tiny little thread that wasn't really "travelling" anywhere until Kaveh posted about our deletion? Why HERE?  Why?  WHAT spotlight?

I have never been deleted on this website ONE SINGLE TIME except when I was attached to another post as a reply.  Not by JJ, not by ONE SINGLE MODERATOR, not EVEN when I was a COPIOUS poster on this website.  Never.

Stop character-assassinating me.    Do you think I'm replying to YOU so careully with all the horrible things you just said about me because it's fun?  This is WORK.  The reason I've posted here so much is because this discussion really MATTERS to me and I happen to have time.  It's THAT simple. Really.

GROW UP??? Tell me, in your aquarium, how much have YOU grown?

Much ado about nothing!

I hate to rain on Rosie's little parade here, seeing as how much she is enjoying the spotlight again. I read your comments and your complaints here. So what? Write sensible and respectful comments and you won't be deleted. Simple as that. Run your mouths and say whatever comes to your minds and get deleted. I don't think JJ deletes enough! Look at all the BS we have to sift through before we find a decent, intelligent dialogue on this site.

The key is this: Imagine that you are you, not a goldfish, and not a fake name with an avatar. Not a faceless, nameless individual but an individual who has a name, an address, a family, and some friends. You are in a room with people you may or may not know. You may or may not like these people and you may or may not respect them. One of them says something you don't like or agree with. Do you say anything that comes to your mind in whichever format? Or do you think, phrase your words carefully, and voice your objection respectfully? Do you call them names? Do you label them? If they knew your real identity, would you cuss them out?

People, grow up, please! Don't hide behind a fake name and act like a moron, please. This advice should serve for you not to get deleted, I am almost sure.

Just a Thought

I think the entire comments feature needs to be eliminated from this website. If someone has something important to say then they should blog about it. Blogs should meet certain standards to merit publication. Blogs should not be a venue for a disgruntled reader to become personally abusive towards someone else. I was against this new format from the beginning and my feeling is that since the inception of this new format the quality of material has dropped significantly and as a result some of the people that placed this site on the map, no longer participate. Instead we have to be subjected to racist tirades against Islam or propaganda for the Bahais or how horrible the Tehran ghetto is for Iranian Jews There are those who are compelled to monopolize the material here. Anyone that disagrees with them automatically becomes an agent of the IRI. The kind of intolerance our people are known for his reared its ugly head here on this site time and again.
There used to a be a time when this website carried substance with it. I feel those days are long gone

Sarzamine / Nadia

No, I HAVEN'T deleted you.  I have ALWAYS been EXTREMELY judicious in my deletions, much moreso  than many others with editorial privileges.   I understood you to say that 7 out of 10 POSTS were deleted, not 7 out of 10 PEOPLE.

Nadia,

 At last we meet agaim.  "Tme it was and what a time it was/a time of innocence, a time of confidences."  --Simon and Garfunkel

"Nuestras vidas son los rios que van a dar en la mar/qye es la muerte?--Jorge Manrique, 'Coplas por la muerte de su padre'

Freedom and Power to the people...........:o)

 "All censorships exist to prevent any one from challenging current conceptions and existing institutions. All progress is initiated by challenging current conceptions, and executed by supplanting existing institutions. Consequently the first condition of progress is the removal of censorships."

                          - George Bernard Shaw

No,, Jimz, you don't understand.

ALL deletions are APPROVED by the publisher BEFORE final deletion.  If he disapproves, the posts are reinstated.  That is what he SPECIFICALLY told me several weeks ago.  Unless he's changed something drastically, the only "everyone" is he.  And if he HAS changed then he should let us know right here because he should be FOLLOWING this blog because he knows it's about him by people who are CONCERNED about things he does.... 

And whether he's changed the procedure or NOT, he should BLOG on these things himself periodically to INFORM people what the policies and procedures are, as I have suggested to him over and over again until I thought I would drop.

JJ, if you're here, to repeat, as below, I support you dearly as you have ALWAYS supported me, especially at the times I most needed it, but regarding the question of moderation...

It is Bund, Jimzbund

Please don't confuse Jimzbund with any James Bond or variations.  I am a Persian Version and my mission is totally different from others !. As for the deletions and the rest , I believe if there are guidelines as to what the "personal attack" or inappropriate means then EVERYONE including the editors have something to depend on and be consistant. As it is right now everyone can make up his or her mind as to what inappropriate is and the confusion, distrust and complaints start. 

Bund, Jimz Bund

Rosie T.

Why should I lie ? are you the one deleting my post so you better know it than me ?? I have even been fair, it is even more than 7, recently you wont see as much as my post here, not because I am lazy or have given up, it is straightly because I am getting deleted, lets just forget about the number but I do not think anybody would deny that JJ delete opinion much more than profanity, if you look at the post regarding this issue, you will find out that 7 out of 10 people agree that their post are getting deleted so this would alone can be proof to my 7 out of 10. And what are we discussing ?? In my opinion not even ONE post should be deleted, our problem is not profanity, the problem is that we are afraid, we are afraid to question religion, we are afraid to question people in power, as a matter of fact we do not question, we just follow, I believe we have two problem that have created all these miseries for us, first we do not read, second we do not question, we worship power, where did we get these two behavior, since the Arab invasion, if you do not agree with me please take a look at Shahnameh, I believe if all the Iranian were read this book, we would have been in different situation by now, therefore to solve our problems, the first two step is to read and to communicate, in this time of our history I can assure you that DELETING in any way will damage us big time.

Why am I here?

I am here for:

(1) Seek news of the day relating to iran.

(2) Seek truth about what happened to us and why.

This second part requires two-way communication to get to the bottom of things. Unfortunately, some iranians (and maybe non-iranians too) lie or exaggerate easily to prove their point in pursuit of their ideology. That is where they need to be seriously challenged, even if it sometimes gets to be somewhat harsh. That is a major contribution if we can just get to know the truth, specially about recent iranian history. I have a feeling that this site is disproportionately crowded by IRI/revolution supporters and they are trying to sell what has a diminishing collection of buyers within iran. For example, I really like to know why iranians revolted in 1979: the easy answer posted again and again is that shah was corrupt, dictator, and a thief. But almost none of the claimants can elaborate as to the meaning of these term and extent of such accusations and how much they were out of the ordinary and out of our cultural context, and if any of those deficiencies were overcome as a result of the revolution. That is where sometimes heated exchanges arise, but interception by the monitors breaks the chain of discussion and turns it into frustration instead. That is where I take it personally to see my comments deleted as if I am under a westernized, yet imposed IRI-like censorship -- what has harmed us so immensely in the past; and thus I avoid initiating such discussions in the future under the circumstances.

I can say that what bothers me more than personal attacks are collective verbal offenses on iranian minorities (religious or ethnic), but site monitors seem to have no problem with that as it sometimes gets quite out of line which does not quite match our historical and cultural background.

Censorship has many faces, and each face is considered justified in the eyes of the censor master. We were deprived of knowing about us during the past two regimes and we were seriously harmed as a result of it.

Souri-jaan /JJ, if you're there

To my knowledge Jahanshah has complete say-so over the final decision for every deletion and has for some time now.  Moderators delete and that goes to him, and if he disapproves, he reinstates the post to the exact place where it was previously. He told me so himself several weeks ago.

Whether that has since changed (I remember reading something recently about four SENIOR editors) , I don't know.  I've written him twice since Kaveh's and my deletion yesterday and asked him simply to please just reply yes or no to did you make that deletion?  I haven't heard back.  No further comment needed but of course I found this disappointing..

JJ/Dear Publisher:  if you're reading this I also wrote you that I support you, and I ALWAYS have, always will.   But I take the moderation issue very seriously and I ALWAYS have, always will. And you have always supported ME in that, and in countless other things that were so important to me, and I'm so grateful to you.  But as I said (twice) below:  This website belongs to the world. 

the bottom line

there are a few here(including yours truly) who are being watched and their comments deleted no matter what they write (there might be an exception but not the rule). We are free to write blogs but we can,t comment , even if we say something positive....there are some "" editors who have tagged us blacklisted because we are not "the boys in the hood" crowd....Cheers!