masoudA
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Who Leads the Green?
12-Jan-2010
There has been a lot of talks about Moussavi, Karoubi, Khatami, ........Ganji, Kadivar, Soroush, Makhmalbaaf, Sazegara......... and many more - all in some ways described as leaders or spokesmen of the Green Movement. I think this is a very important issue - we need to get to the bottom of, at least on the internet where collective wisdom of the Green movement resides.
1- We must separate people like Moussavi, Karoubi, Khatami,......who are inside Iran from anyone who makes statements oustide Iran. People inside Iran are walking a fine line, playing with their lives. Even Khatami - we must not judge him but what he says or has to say. What is important is to support them - as long as what they do or say does not jeoperdize Green. We must understand their limitations, and the fact that IR can at any time do things to them or their families, in making them say or do things against teh Green interest.
2- Then we have people who are outside Iran. I believe people who are outside Iran and still push for reforming IR - can be categorized in three groups:
A) People who are way out of touch and have not been following the past attempts of reforming IR. Reforming IR has been tried by Bazargan, Bani Sadr, Rafsanjani, Khatami,.... for about 30 years now - all of them hit the same brick wall of hardliners with an army of Chagoo Keshs, many of whom are now government officials.
B) People who are trying to preserve some financial interests. This group we must watch out for because they do tend to side with Green at times - since it is very hard not to oppose current atrocities of the regime. However, at the end of the day, they do tend to chose personal interest over Iran's. These people tend to easily embrace attempts by IR stooges outside Iran to steal, derail or even defeat Green goals.
C) People who think Green will have to pay a big price if it goes for a complete regime change. This sentiment is in fact true - but these people must know, this attitude will kill the Green movement or at least kill it's chances for regime change and or making serious changes within the regime. They must know - Green wants a "Secular Democracy", immediately or eventually. If you are not seeking a secular democracy then do not consider yourself Green. They must understand that all attempts to get away from the ideal of a "Secular Democracy" will create great cracks in the Green movement. To better understand this let me pose this scenario:
If someone like Karoubi or Moussavi, or Sazegara proposes a national referendum on Velayat Faghih. Would this help or hurt the Green? I personaly think it will kill it. People are not stupid - they realize at the end of this referendum, we are still stuck with IR - regardless of the result. In fact a few years ago - there was another proposal for a national referendum (to say Yes or No to IR all-together) - it was also endorsed by Reza Pahlavi - and got killed, even by RP supporters, since nobody believed (and rightfully so) there could be fair elections while IR is in power. Some may think - OK deletion of VF is a good first step. NO - in fact IRGC will be even stronger with elimination of VF.
Furthermore, we must be extremely careful on who can speak or direct the Green Movement outside Iran. I am not too worried about Green activities inside Iran, since as you can see the "Collective Wisdom" concept of the Green inside Iran has done great so far - they have IR cornered to near complete suffocation. I am however worried about Green, outside Iran. There are dubious attempts to claim leadership or spokesmanship for the Green. This can be very dangerous, especially since we see reports (such as the last article in WSJ) in which it was written some un-named members of Green Leadership are giving American officials advice on what to do!! One of their top priorities was to target sanctions on Iran's Telecom - under the excsue that it is now owned by IRGC. What does that mean - will it hurt crucial communication lines amongst the Green? It may very well be a good idea - but certainly one that has not been screened by the "Collective Wisdom" on the internet.
Green inside Iran has enough problems as it is - let's make sure IR stooges don't hurt it from outside Iran.
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This is a revolution but not like 1979
by argebam on Thu Jan 14, 2010 07:15 AM PSTI agree 100% with the writer. This movement is based on a discourse, it does not have a leader yet works with Mossavi and others due to its limitations. They have compared the green movement to Wikipedia where every one can participate with all the personal differences but have come to consensus on some principals, I will take this a step further and I call those principals or the discourse "Democracy based on Human Rights and Secularism". This is a main stream movement and that is what we have been waiting for 30 years and it will continue.
Now the confrontation between the government and the people have not occured yet in full blown and we will see more killing.
Revolutions like 1979 are rare, where you burn down everything and start all over, in other words 1979 revolution was idiotic. If you change the pillars of a constitution (Such as freedom of religion, secularism, freedom of press....) you have a revolution on your hand based on definition. I also agree with the points of the writer on those special groups (be it the lobbyists in USA or those like Ganji that have a love for Khomeini but not Khamenei) who think this movement will stop once the reform of IRI will stop at Moussavi are barking at a wrong tree. This movement has way passed the reformists but he tactic is (not the strategy), in order to reach its goal, it has to work with reformers. It was very good analysis.
Masoud: You are the one who said anything goes
by Researcher on Wed Jan 13, 2010 04:41 PM PSTNow you seem to have changed your mind and you are now setting goals and rules as to what should and should not be done. Originally in you rarticle you said we should not decide on anything and that we need no leader or philosophy or anything. Are you having a change of mind?
Researcher
by masoudA on Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:31 PM PSTGo live and try to work in Iran for a couple of years - then we talk.
What you struggle to understand is that an evolution is a gradual process that happens in improving a situation. What we have had in Iran was a devastation of an already decent situation followed by 30 years of devolution - still ongoing. We need a revolution - and people know it. True - certain colonialist entities in the west will no longer be able to buy our oil on the sea at $5/barell - which means you need to do further research on where to generate such incomes.
Revolution or evolution?
by Researcher on Wed Jan 13, 2010 09:39 AM PSTSeems to me what you are struggling to say is actually the idea of evolution, more or less as it was described by Darwin. You are saying no matter what we do, even if our actions are not 100% correct, it is no problem because the whole thing eventually will correct itself and find the correct path, etc. This is essentially Theory of Evolution. This has nothing to do with Green or any other movement. A nation is hoped to eventually evolve no matter what.
Revolution can be defined (by me!) as evolution that has been forced to go fast! A more "natural" revolution (a valid one) is one that is actually the result of some long time evolution. After years of evolving, all of a sudden there will be a fast period of evolution and some people mistake that as something other than evolution - they call it revolution. Well we can play a word game if we want. That's OK.
But if you are looking at evolution, what can help speed up evolution is more communication and not less. Therefore sanctions delay evolution as it cuts the line of information to those people. Wars and rhetorics slow down evolution as it scares a group into isolation and backwards mentality.Riots, strikes, fighting, etc al slow down evolution as it makes it much harder for people to find out about other ideas and systems. Which society advances faster, the US with a lot of stability and security or some place like Sudan with hardly any stability and peace?
Iran has been evolving and its rate of evolution has been increasing but some people like yourself are actually trying to stop this evolution with the excuse of speeding it up (it can't handle more speed). The best way to improve Iran is to help establish Iran-West relationship so that more and more Iranians can travel to other countries and see other cultures and systems and shed their fears. Nobody needs to tell them what their rights are when they can go and see for themselves. But cut their ability down to travel or connect through Internet, etc and you have doomed them to their backward state.
Evolution is the answer NOT revolution and violence.
Excellent analysis! MasoudA
by Maryam Hojjat on Wed Jan 13, 2010 03:46 AM PST"If you are not for a secular democracy, then do not consider yourself GREEN". Well said.
Payandeh IRAN & True Iranians
Cyber Revolution
by masoudA on Tue Jan 12, 2010 06:21 PM PSTIt is important to understand the different elements of the world's first cyber revolution well underway in Iran. The best thing about it is our "Collective Wisdom" on the internet is the Leader of the Green movement. What I am saying here may not make sense to you - but you will after a few years of witnessingf how easy Iranians come to some concensus on just about every issue - when they have the benefit of open communication lines - such as what we have here. Believe me, I have witnessed it both on the internet forums and on open phone lines on Iranian satellite TV programs. And the best thing about it is that there is no clear leaders for the mullahs or other foreign interest groups to go after. Historically, the leaders were either bought or eliminated, but with a cyber reolution, the collective wisdom of a group is independent of one or two people. Guys - this thing is huge - we can't lose no matter what - Green has already made hiistory. Ther best is yet to come - all we have to do is not allow ONE individual to emerge as another Emam or one group to start making private decesions for the Green. At this pace IR will fall on it's own weight - no destruction necessary.
We should be careful not to have any goal, leader, organization!
by Researcher on Tue Jan 12, 2010 04:00 PM PSTAs soon as we agree on leaders, goals, and as soon as we start an organization we will want to start a fight and the Green Movement goes bust! The green does not need anything. The first step is destruction - just complete destruction of everything. Any action that leads to destruction is acceptable. Any action that leads to building should be avoided. First we riot, start strikes, break windows, burn cars, destroy property, bomb any building we can, ask foreign governments to sanction Iran, demonize the regime everywhere, and in short burn the country to the ground. Once these bastards are gone, then we can start building. We can't say what or how we will build because that discussion is very premature and will only cause a split among us. So let's all just stick with pure destructive acts only. Nobody ask what we want to do. Clear?
This is a good analysis of
by Atessa1 on Tue Jan 12, 2010 03:08 PM PSTThis is a good analysis of the situation & you are pointing out a major issue that many of the Self-proclaimed Green leaders outside Iran do not want to hear: “If you are not seeking a secular democracy then do not consider yourself Green”. Very true!
I had a chat with two of these leaders…Both were defending the essence of VF but were saying that they are against its totalitarian nature. Bottom line was they were saying that "We don’t need to get rid of VF…we only need to help it to become a democratic VF". I did not know if I should laugh out load or cry my eyes out listening to the hope of Greens out side Iran.
As far as I am concern, people have not been imprisoned, tortured, raped, killed for a colour change…But a Regime change!!
Payandeh bad a Secular Free Iran.
There are no leaders but people themselves
by SamSamIIII on Tue Jan 12, 2010 01:29 PM PSTWho is pulling & leading who?. It,s pretty obvious that Mousavi, karoubi & khattami are mere followers to "Badaneh jonbesh so called sabz" who are made up of mainly patriotic masses. Otherwise you would never hear slogans such as "na ghazeh na lobnan janam fadayeh Iran" or "esteghlaal, azaadi, jomhorieh Irani" .
People are simply tolerating & intelligently utilizing Mousavi/karoubi strategic alliance rather than follow their lead carte blanche . Cheers & Thx for the blog pal!!!
Path of Kiaan Resurrection of True Iran Hoisting Drafshe Kaviaan //iranianidentity.blogspot.com //www.youtube.com/user/samsamsia