Iranians in Psychotherapy

Mina Dadvar (Klein)

• Mina Dadvar (Klein)

divorce laws

• I think financial issues should be honestly and openly discussed before marriage.

Anonymous Fish jan

Well, if I recall correctly it is the same view that Q has but ironically he lives in the LA area. Would that not make him a tehrangel as well?

On a more cheerful note. :o) I love eating at the Caspian restaurant in the Houston area. I am sure the one in Irvine is just as wonderful.

It is kind of eerie that we are speaking of me moving to California. About a year or so, I was seriously considering moving to Irvine, California. If I had gone through with it then I would have moved this very summer there.

However, the economy in California seemed to be suffering and I kept reading about all the teacher lay offs there. I happen to be an elementary teacher so, I was concerned about my job prospects there.

One of the things that I find so attractive about California is the Iranian culture scene is greater than in Houston. The possibilities to get an excellent education in Iranian culture, history and Farsi are very good at the university level.

Now, I will need to add the scenery (Persian men) to my list of pluses for moving to California. :o) I will list it as a major plus. hahaha

Thank you so much for the offer of information. I woud greatly appreciate it. I have enabled my contact button in case that you wish to provide it in this form. You may also post it as a blog, or on a thread. However, you decide to do it.

Thank you very much! :o)

well, this has always been a touchy subject...lol

some people see the LA iranian crowd as being fake or "new" iranian.  i myself was not impressed with little tehrangelos.  there is one or two great bookstores but i found the restuarants to be WAY inferior to, say, the caspian in irvine.  they were also snobby to the max.  this is MY opinion of course.  i much prefer irvine which was a couple of great persian markets and restaurants.  just go to wholesome choice and sit outside and watch the "scenery" (persian men).... whoo hoo...lol

do check out the missions.  i was absolutely enthralled with them.  let me do a little research and put something together for you. 

Anonymous Fish

I have heard of the great beauty of California. I have actually checked out some places on the web.

Well, I may not be a Catholic but I certainly have an appreciation for the architecture and history of the missions.  :o)

A friend of mine tells me that Los Angeles is the place to be, if you want to be involved in Persian culture. What is your opinion on the matter?

Of course, I would love to stop by and a meal sounds great too. I will probably need the break driving all the way from Houston, Texas. :o)

Natasha

the great thing about california is that no matter where you go, it's beautiful!  i had been to SF twice on business before azizam and i spent 10 days doing the tourist thing 10 years ago.  if you had told me then that i would one day live in california, i would have laughed in your face.  just goes to show you, you never ever know.  but if i were to suggest anything, the first thing would be to "do" PCH.  the trip from San Diego up through Orange County is unbelievable.  i don't think i've ever said "oh my god" so many times...lol.  SD itself is wonderful.  i loved la jolla and old town.  if your mom were the catholic, i'd recommend the missions.  we went to about 6 of them along the coast... incredible!!!  there are so many things!!!

keep me posted on your trip.  we'd love to meet up with you somewhere for a quick lunch or leisurely dinner if you've got the time to spare!!!

Anonymous Fish

My mom and I talk about all sorts of girl stuff. :o)

Well, at the moment there isn't much to fight about if a divorce would take place. So, I don't see much of a benefit in getting  a pre-nup at the moment.

I'm probably going to end up marrying a guy with not much to his name. :o) What can I say, I will love him for him and we will build our small fortune together.

Talking about religious, I grew up in a family where my father's side was/is Catholic and my mother's side is Protestant. Yep! Interesting family get togethers. Both sides thought the other side was going straight to hell. :o)

My mother wonders why I'm not religious. Hello! Just look at the family growing up. She's lucky, I'm not an atheist. Hahaha

I would love to some day marry a good Iranian man. So, what part of California are we talking about.  Hmmmmm  :o)

I am making plans to take my mom to Nevada in the summer and will be stopping by California. Please do share your recommendations.

cap'n

are you sure that all benefits of marriage or the law of marriage applies to common law marriages?  i really don't think so.  perhaps some institutions are changing but overall, there are pretty serious restrictions to common law spousal rights.

maziar058

Actually, 3 countries that I am familiar with have [Common Law Marriage], US, Canada and UK.

Common Law Marriage is one that couple have lived together for certain period of time and they have shared in expenses and bank accounts and such. In these cases they are considered married as common law husband and wife, and full law of marriage applies to them.

I am certain many other European countries recognize common law marriage besides the one I mentioned.

At the end, it boils down to  [fairness] . If as a man, one married to a woman for period of times, she truly deserves to be compensated fairly and equitably in case of divorce .

At least that is what I think.

-YT

all christian marriages

say "till death do you part".   it ain't just catholics, buddy.  :-)

what do you mean by ""repetetoire".  if you mean "repetoire", it has nothing to do with being "repeated" if that is what you're trying to imply.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,)

yes.... they are fair to men ,cause only women wants to get married............
remember? after each fight they say: ALL MEN ARE PIGS.
if the marriage is not documented on paper as mutual agreement then the divorce has no value per say by law,
want to act modern ? then live by it.
no need for marriage ceremony ,all the fights after few years, and god forbid leaving few kids heart broken for ever and the cycle "repetetoire "

it does say till death do us apart. I didn't made it up buddy.

natasha

i can't imagine discussing such things with my mother...lol.  though, actually as i grow older i realize how cool she really is!!!

regarding a pre-nup.  i don't think there's anything wrong with it at all.  you can talk all you want about marriage being about love but this is the 21st century and we're more realistic about things.  i don't think it's insulting to either one of the parties.  if i were female and very successful or had inherited a family property for example, i would definitely want something in writing.  it's not denigrating my affection for my spouse but let's say we don't have one.  i die and my spouse gets everything i've worked for all my life.  so... he dies 6 months later and HIS successors gets it all.  what about my family and the family fortune or family beach house? 

women are getting millions for dollars after a 7 year marriage to an older and VERY rich man... for what? 

i know what you mean about a religious and traditional family.  can  you say "irish catholic" without seeing 5 kids and mass almost every day!  but that is my family... not necessarily ME.  do what's best for YOU.  who knows... you might even marry an iranian from california!!!!  :-0

maziar... another misconception about catholics. 

ali p.  what an awesome idea!!!! i absolutely believe in counseling BEFORE and AFTER marriage.  kind of like a "maintenance clause".  you check the oil in your car every 3K miles... why not check in with a counselor every couple of years... refresh the batteries... weed out some harmful habits.  you make great sense!!!

pj... you're absolutely right!  well said.

YT... you're right but that is slowly changing.  albeit not quick enough.  i personally (because i AM a mom) believe a women is better suited to raise a child but i absolutely realize that this doesn't apply to all women, all children and not under all circumstances.  it's something that should be looked at very very carefully and i truly sympathize with any parent who has been the victim of prejudice by virtue of sex alone.

pre-nup

They call it prenup here in farangestan and we used to call it Mehriye.

Traditionally in Iran, Mehriyeh was to protect the women, because of the fact often both marriage law and divorce law in Iran was one sided and in the favor of men. Mehriyeh also was a contractual agreement to support another contract[marriage] to ensure its stability, as far as law is concerned. Almost something very similar to [collateral] in any business contract.

Neither a solid pre-nup, nor a hefty mehriyeh guarantees success of a marriage, nor it prevents divorce. Success of each marriage depends on the amount of sacrifice each party are willing to endure for the sake of the other and family unit.

Being a [LUCKY] happily married man for many years, IF and WHEN both parties[husband and wife] have had role in amassing the family properties, whether wife worked outside of the home or not, I believe that in the event of divorce they both should get equal portion of the family wealth. Plus a proper provision for the children.

One law[Iranian as well as American] that I object to and see as unfair is the custody law.

In Iran, custody, due to some stupid sharia' law goes automatically to the father. In US, it automatically goes to the mother. I do trust that in both countries this can be fought in the court. Problem is often the losing party does not have the resources to do so.

-YT

Europe and North America

Related to European or North American societies marriage is an antique and a silly idea. Why should someone marry?

RE: Marge

Thank you! I do  hope to find a good man that I see as my equal. :o)

I will truly, deeply and whole heartedly love him. It is the only way I know to love. :o)

I wish you also great happiness.

Even from a "legal" point of view

I think it is a ridiculous idea! I just don't think you can predict events and circumstances in advice, unless you are marrying a psychic, in order to make you feel anymore confident about marriage. The best thing is as others have said here: marry someone you love whole heartedly and see as your equal. Cast aside suspicion and remember that life is short. Good luck to you Natalia! I wish you a lifetime of happiness in whatever you decide.

Re:Marge

Got it! No prenup! :o)

In my culture it is seen as bad luck.

Natalia - don't do it

I'm telling you this as a woman. It's a man's world even with these "laws". If you wish to get married, that's fine and your choice. But I find these pre-nups very odd and distasteful. 

Why Are We Only Talking About Men

The laws are equally applicable to men and women. So, if the woman is the one making the money and the guy is sitting on his ass it applies in the same manner to her. I'm one of those women and I take issue with the way you posed the questions. If you want to see unfairness you ought to see it that way, where it is the woman who has the child, takes care of the house, is the primary care provider, goes out and works and pays all the bills and the guy goes to the office to read the paper. On top of it when you want to divorce his family and the iranian community asks, what is wrong with him "is he abusive, is he cheating on you, does he gamble, is he alcoholic"? As if those are the only reasons to divorce. Try because he is irresponsible. The irresponsibility sure paid off because he is now entitled to half the assets I worked my ass off to make.

My advice, marry someone financially equal to you and the day he/she stops working get rid of him/her because his/her rights only grow with time. If you think that is unfair wait till he/she takes you to the cleaner during a divorce and you will wonder why you had to the take the high road.Let's see if he/she is fair and equitable then! As to community property laws, no the laws are not fair. It protects the lazy and "koon goshad". The courts should impute an annual salary to the contribution of each party. So, the working person should be imputed his/her annual income brought home and the non-working spouse an annual fee reflective of their work (so in the case of a housewife the salary of a full-time babysitter). Then the assets should be divided based on the ratio each person contributed. I don't buy the argument that she gave up on her career to raise the kids. That is her choice. She can hire a nanny (like I did) and go back to work week 6.

The law is fair but

The law is fair, it is the men of my country who are unfair heartless and at times cruel. That is because they are used to a system that conveniently protects them and laws that are written by them and for their interest. Laws that rub women of what is rightfully and in good conscious belong to her. Laws that leave her alone and naked, without her children, her friends, and off coarse the marital property. Best scenario is perhaps a ridiculously low amount of mehrieh that is given to her. This is a picture that an Iranian men hold in his mind as a fair marital law!
Most Iranian men are raised with a belief that is rooted deeply in their mind, that when a woman wants a divorce, she leave everything behind, pack her clothes and go to her parents.
The sad part is these men are often highly educated and very bright, but the education has not brought fairness to their hearts; they are still blind and can’t see the light. Equality is concept that they refuse to accept and compassion for a woman is unmanly thought.

CAN'T HAVE THE CAKE....

DO YOU WANT IT TO BE FAIR TO THE.......?
HOW ABOUT CHILDREN ?THEY DIDN'T FALL IN LOVE TO BECOME YOUR KIDS,IN OTHER PART OF THE WORLD (IRAN &OTHERS) THERE IS NO LAW (WELL MAY BE ON PAPER )BUT NOT ENFORCED.
ACTUALLY CATHOLICS SAY ONCE YOUR IN THAT CONTRACT YOU CAN NOT GET OUT OF UNLESS ONE OF YOU DIES.! UNTIL DEATH TO US APART.
IF YOU THINK YOU CAN'T MAKE MONEY AGAIN DON'T GET MARRIED CAUSE YOU MAY RIDE THE SAME BUS AGAIN..

Re:Marge

I have been discussing prenuptial agreement, marriage, cohabitation, dating and many other things with my mother.

I am trying to determine what is best for me. I was raised in a very traditional and religious family.

In my culture a prenuptial agreement is seen as offensive to a woman as well.

The problem is not the law

   The law is created to protect us from the government, and from each other. Divorce laws, like any other good laws, can be abused. The judges, masters, and the juries, can be fooled. The notion that every judicial decision is fair and right, is an illusion.

  If you do not want the law to interfere in your love affair, you can keep it out: Cohabit!(or live in sin, as they used to call it!)

 As Marge noted, marriage is a contract, and to many, a very unfair one.

   But then we have freedom of contract in the U.S, and you can  enter any unfair or unjust contract you want - with a few exceptions- and it will be upheld and enforced by the courts, as long as you did so knowingly and volunteerly.

  If  someone you love  is getting married, skip the toaster or the vaccum cleaner. As a gift, give them an hour of consultation with a divorce lawyer, before they sign the paper. 

Love,

:-)

Ali P.

Not really Natalia

I think it is insulting. Marriage is contract enough. If you are so concerned with money and children or possession of these things, marriage is not the right option. Religious people might say marriage is a convenant. 

Prenuptial agreement?

Marge,

So you agree in having a prenuptial agreement?

When you buy a car, don't you plan ahead?

It amazes me when people go nuts over divorce and the law. These are good things to think about BEFORE you get married. If you like to sleep around, drink a lot of alcohol, gamble, steal, etc.... don't get married then complain that "the law is not fair", especially MEN. You know the law is unfair. Marry someone if you are sure 100%. It's a contract. It's not just about love. 

It's not different than people who buy a Mercedes Benz or BMW then complain that the maintenance or parts are expensive. TOO BAD! You should always plan for the accidents and mishaps. They happen in life.