Madonna-Whore Complex in Our Culture

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Monda
by Monda
12-Dec-2009
 

If you find yourself interested in the title of my blog read:

//primal-page.com/madonna.htm

Last night I was at a holiday dinner party when I noticed the grim look on Sophie's face. She texted me from across the table to go outside for a chat. We found a shelter from the rain, lit our cigarettes, and then she spoke as a tear glistened on her cheek below the dark circles around those usually vibrant dark brown eyes.

"What's wrong?” I asked. “I've been meaning to ask you all through dinner."

“You know Monda, Farid and I are breaking up. He says he just cannot for the life of him figure out who I am to him!”

I met Sophie through my Human Sexuality professor in my third year of graduate school. She is an accomplished human rights attorney who financed her education through exotic dancing in an established SF club. The topic of discussion in our class was the impact of legalization of prostitution on psycho therapeutic models. Sophie was there to educate us about her most personal information as it related to our field.

After my research paper was completed Sophie and I kept our contact.

Twice a year we have lunch or dinner. Two years ago I found out that she was in a committed relationship with an Iranian-American man for four years at that point. Farid was, Sophie and I acknowledged, one of the essential topics of our conversations each time we met. Not only because he and I shared a similar background because of our nationality but also because he turned out to be of a family whose values I was very familiar with. Farid’s sister was an old friend of my cousin's.

During our lunch last summer Sophie talked to me about the possibility of moving in a house with Farid, which however was not intended to lead to marriage. Things were good because of the nature of their relationship and their professions. And as American as she is, the expression “sari ke dard nemikoneh chera dastmaal bebandi?” made sense to her as she gave me her big bright smile with many dimples around it.

Sophie could not be a mother, so that was that – for her anyway. Farid, on the other hand, was a different story. I well knew, I shared with Sophie, that he was raised in a prominent, traditional Iranian family.

I explained to her my perspective of Farid’s family values and even cautioned her about some of his probable cultural dilemmas, even after 34years of living outside of Iran.

Our discussion of Sophie’s serious decision process regarding her cohabitation with Farid, somehow led to how she and Farid communicated sexually. I was specifically curious about how Farid related to his lover’s exotic dancing background. This opened a very sincere and bonding discussion between us. Sophie admitted to me that many times over the years she has found herself baffled by Farid’s mood swings after what she considered the most satisfying sensual/sexual experience. She had trouble figuring out the reasons for his silence, withdrawal, and loss of connection with her –immediately after they had the most fabulous erotic experience together. It was not about either partner having had a long day, feeling physically exhausted or having to immediately tackle other tasks.

Thus we explored the topic leading us to some conclusions, a few of which are as following:

Most men of Middle-eastern and Mediterranean backgrounds are inflicted by this dichotomy: lover versus woman as their mother. A woman, in their unconscious male psyche, cannot represent both ideas. This may explain why the sweet wordsand gestures stop flowing toward a woman once she has had sexual encounters with a man.

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Latina

......

by Latina on

.


Nur-i-Azal

Corbinian

by Nur-i-Azal on

By Corbinian I mean the perspective (or type of phenomenology) that comes from the writings of the Iranologist Henry Corbin. Corbin was a friend and close colleague of Carl Jung's, and until his own passing in October 1978 he was a regular contributor at the annual Eranos conferences in Ascona, Switzerland which Jung initially organized. The famous depth psychologist James Hillman is a Corbinian as well.

To simplify the issue: Where the Corbinian perspective diverges from Jungianism is on the nature of the archetypes and who and what the human being is in relation to the bigger picture. Corbin, as with many esotericists, believes the archetypes are real and not just abstractions of the mind. They are the Platonic Forms, in one sense, or even Angelic hypostases which the soul interacts  with (from within its own cultural matrix)  towards its own individuation through the organ of the Active Imagination. His perspective emerges from a Neoplatonic emanationist ontology and cosmology which Jungianism as a basically psychological discipline philosophically lacks -- or even to some level must reject from a methodological point of view. Corbin was a scholar of comparative esoteric spiritualities and religions, and a specialist on Iranian esoteric spirituality in particular. He launched his career as an academic in the  mid 1920s by translating Martin Heidegger from German into French. Earlier he had studied under the medievalist Etienne Gilson while he was  simultaneously studying Sanskrit, Arabic, Persian and Turkish on an intensive graduate level.

The story is that in the late 1920s the famous French Islamologist Louis Massignon handed Henry Corbin a lithographed copy of Suhrawardi's Kitab-i-Hikmat al-Ishraq, and that as a result of this  Event Corbin's intellectual horizons suddenly shifted towards the Orient (mashriq), Iran and the world of Iranian pre- as well as Islamic spirituality in general. He spent the entire duration of the Second World War in Istanbul as Sorbonne university's representative at the Aya Sofia Islamic manuscripts library. He taught concurrently in Iran (first at Tehran University and later at Aryamehr) and France at the Sorbonne from the late 1940s to 1978, and was responsible for numerous translations, editions of texts and independent studies. He spoke Persian, French, Turkish and German fluently and knew how to perfectly read in a dozen other languages as well.

Corbin was once asked to define his core beliefs, his faith, and his response was: Earth, Angel and Woman! A great introduction to Henry Corbin's thought is this essay by Tom Cheetham entitled Within This Darkness: The Faith of Henry Corbin where all of this is discussed in depth. I think you will enjoy it.

If your interest is piqued any further, look at Tom Cheetham's blog the Legacy of Henry Corbin and the Amis Corbin website (where you can find a few of his works). This site has a simultaneous Persian section. Note that the blog I put up some time ago on the Zurkhaneh has a cameo appearance made by Henry Corbin in the video.

Both Henry and his wife, Stella, were lifelong personal friends to Farah Pahlavi. He was also a colleague to Seyyed Hossein Nasr and was mentor and academic advisor to Iranian intellectuals such as Daryush Shayegan and others. Corbin is often not easy to read, but engaging with his thought and the manner in which he interprets the  spirituality of Iran is immensely rewarding. For Iranian counsellors with a depth psychology and Jungian bent, Corbin could indeed prove a very powerful interpretative tool!

His Spiritual Body and Celestial Earth: From Mazdean Iran to Shi'ite Iran is a must read!


Monda

Mr Nur-l-Azal, Please explain Corbinian to me

by Monda on

When you have time.


Nur-i-Azal

Monda khanum

by Nur-i-Azal on

I stand guilty as accused except that I am more a Corbinian than a strict Jungian ;o)


Monda

Nur-l-Azal,

by Monda on

I appreciate you knowledge and thank you for Thunder, Perfect Mind link. 

It's nice to see another Jungian here :o) Yes it's fascinating to see the archetypical impacts in the actual human emotions and decision making process.

 


Monda

Yolanda jan,

by Monda on

I said she was breaking up, implying her curiosity and doubt, not definite decision.


yolanda

.....

by yolanda on

Hi Monda,

       I am just curious if the 2 are still together. You mentioned in your blog that they broke up and Sophie cried, but you also mentioned in your post that they will spend X-mas together.....It sounds like it is not completely over....maybe they have just down-graded their relationship from boyfriend/girlfriend to "friends"......or at least the break-up is very amicable, not bitter at all....maybe one day they will re-kindle the old flame and up-grade their relationship to the previous level......I think it is up to the "fate".....

thanks,

 


Delaram Banafsheh (Yolanda)

"Cactus in the Desert"


Nur-i-Azal

Monda

by Nur-i-Azal on

I'm a great believer that all  human dynamics such as this transcend time and place, and that there are deep mythological and spiritual narratives guiding things all the way into the psyche and the DNA.

If you strip the mother-whore dynamic off its contemporary psychological baggage, you might find something interesting and unexpected behind it all. What I am talking about is this: every pre-urban and agrarian society worshipped the Divine in the form of Woman. God was Goddess and Mother. If you go back in history far enough, you might find that the whore aspect, in its negative connotation, is probably part of the power play and social onslaught of patriarchy when it displaced and replaced the Great Feminine Mother Goddess with the male God. Perhaps a resolution to the psychological and cultural baggages we carry in contemporary male/female relationships and dynamics could be resolved if our view of the bigger picture and the nature (or metaphysical gender) of what guides it all goes back to where it was before we left the Garden and the Mother became the Father.

I leave you with a sample section from one of my favourite pieces of the Gnostic texts, i.e. Thunder, Perfect Mind (where the Divine as Feminine-Sophia speaks in the first person):

 

....I am the first and the last. I am the honored one and the scorned one. I am the whore and the holy one. I am the wife and the virgin. I am <the mother> and the daughter. I am the members of my mother. I am the barren one and many are her sons. I am she whose wedding is great, and I have not taken a husband. I am the midwife and she who does not bear. I am the solace of my labor pains. I am the bride and the bridegroom, and it is my husband who begot me. I am the mother of my father and the sister of my husband and he is my offspring.

 

 


Monda

Dear Natalia,

by Monda on

Thank you for reading it.  I really believe that we are all work in progress, as long as we live.

P.S. Dance class was really Fun! Your place was empty.


Natalia Alvarado-Alvarez

I must say

by Natalia Alvarado-Alvarez on

I must say that this blog has helped me work out some issues I needed to face. I look forward to your future relationship blogs.

 


Monda

I was hoping to read Particularly Your Feedback on this blog

by Monda on

sbolch, I am deeply touched by your perception and clarity!  Thank you my love for your validation and confidence. 


Monda

Faramarz: My Prognosis!

by Monda on

The resourceful person that I find Farid to be, he will check into his unvisited psychological domains. His relationship with Sophie gave him the safety and motivation to do just that. After a clearly strong bond, they both will give it another go.  They may compromise on living together (not right away). As long as he comes to terms with her not wanting a child and also when he becomes clear on what this relationship means to him. 

I had a text from her replying to my text about this blog.  She asked me to blog about our other assumptions on Farid's state of mind. We'll see about that.  In the meantime one thing is for sure and that is JJ has two new readers on his site :o)

Later today I sent her the clip from my new blog. She thought she'd love to join my dance class but only after she returns from her Christmas visit to Europe with Farid's family!  

So I guess it's safe to conclude this: Who knows what happens next.

Do you concur? 


Sbolch

Conflict avoidance can't keep a relationship moving forward

by Sbolch on

I read the above "primal-page" link with background information of the madonna-whore complex and I was pleasantly surprised it isn't just an underlying character trait, but a true complex. The entire time while reading it I couldn't help but think hmm, I've experienced this first hand. 

As for conflict resolution, progress in a relationship cannot be made if one just walks away from issues. By avoiding a sore subject for the sake of not stepping on the toes of a beloved partner, it does not go away, and can recirculate. While you may want to avoid the stress of getting into an argument, how much better do you feel once you know the topic has been acknowledged, resolved, and put to rest?

 P.S. If confidentiality didn't play such a large role in your practice, Farid could consider himself lucky enough to work with you about this!


Faramarz

اين حرف ها براى سوفى لباس خواب نميشه

Faramarz


Monda,

So 48 hours and 100 comments later, is Sophie any where closer than where she was before? Is there any hope for this relationship? What is your assessment? I would love to hear a wrap up.


yolanda

.....

by yolanda on

Hi! Monda,

     Thank you!!! I have low self-esteem sometimes, but I am happy anyway!! :O) Thank you for your blog and I enjoyed reading all the posts! I also like the post you wrote in Azadeh's cartoon blog....great job!.....I did not thank you over there 'cause I don't want people to jump on me! :O)

Take care!!! 

Delaram Banafsheh (Yolanda)

"Cactus in the Desert"


Monda

Yolanda jan, Quit That!

by Monda on

If you are at least physically here, then you Are somebody and Not just anybody either. Don't you forget it Sister! 


yolanda

.......

by yolanda on

Thank you, Monda, for your blog and comments. You cracked me up!!!!  I am absolutely nobody here! Please don't take my comments too seriously.

Take care!!

P.S. Thank you for the X-mas video, it is very entertaining!

Delaram Banafsheh (Yolanda)

"Cactus in the Desert"


Monda

the important points: Relative vs Black& White

by Monda on

and I think Anonymouse and Yolanda should at least meet.


Anonymouse

Monda jaan generally speaking things are relatively relative!

by Anonymouse on

The point about what works for you and as long as you're happy is very general and applies to all.  One size fits all.

My point is about what people "generally do" that gets them into trouble, i.e. FAQs.  No relationship is perfect and how can we realize that it takes some looking inside yourself (not your spouse) to see what really needs to be changed.  

I don't see much of a difference between temper and temperment.  Like I don't have the temperment (patience) or I don't have a temper, everyone does, or I have a bad temper, not everyone.

Anyway, the topic of this blog invites the discussion and stereotyping of the different wirings between men and women!  It's a topic rich in material and what stand up comics use over and over again!  But there can be important points made that are useful, as there were many points discussed here.  Hopefully this is it for me and I'm done, like a well done steak! 

Everything is sacred.


Monda

Temper and Temperament are different words

by Monda on

I was not discussing temper in a person or a temperamental person in terms of his/her mood swings!  Read again, if you're already here, which has nothing to do with the blog title or my blog story.  But since one way or another we got to Temperament, all the way from mother-whore complex, then let's talk about temperament a bit.  You might find it interesting.  

BTW I appreciate all your visits and comments.  And I love it when people get carried away from a topic :o)    


Monda

Baba zaboonam moo dar aavord, Anonymouse

by Monda on

You make a relationship as perfect as You are and She is.  Now start with yourself:  Are you Perfect? What is That?  Do we need to be Perfect?  Hell No!

Now let's go to Her (poor thing):  Do you expect Perfection in her?!  

Baba Good Enough is Great as long as you can relate/connect/bond around values/goals/interestS/sex/ so on and so forth.... basically whatever You think is important to You. If Perfection matters to you, then have the perfect relationship.  Much Luck to you and all my best.  Blog about it if you like.


yolanda

.......

by yolanda on

Thank you, Mouse, for this part:

 

In a perfect relationship everything is perfect, there are no
arguments, total understanding and seeing eye to eye on everything, and
it is for eternity.  

Delaram Banafsheh (Yolanda)

"Cactus in the Desert"


Anonymouse

What to look for in a Khastegaree. Temper.

by Anonymouse on

Monda jaan the information you've provided is interesting.  I wonder if 50 years from now people can get a cat scan of their traits and use it as their profile to meet someone.  But until then we'll have to go by the experiences of our friends and families and what makes sense to us.

People go out and get to know each other and spend some time before tying the knot or becoming domestic partners or as JJ calls it co-habit! ;-)  

As far as Conflict Avoidant compared to Conflict Resolvant; Like in Holly's example you can discuss it, belog it, comment on it and in the end nothing!  Or as it was suggested pent up feelings and depression later. You rinse and repeat but still no resolution.

In a perfect relationship everything is perfect, there are no arguments, total understanding and seeing eye to eye on everything, and it is for eternity. 

Now who would like a tempermental person?  Some people keep saying to their partner than I have a bad temper as if it is a fetish or something s/he should be proud of.  The question is not if you have temper but what are you doing about it.  Regardless, they deserve love, don't they? The chances of someone with a bad temper resolving all issues "in a discussion" is slim to none.  BTW tempermental people are the ones who itch for more and more discussions from strawberry jam to United Nations. 

So for him/her the best advice is to "avoid" those discussions and how to avoid them.  Like containing vs treating.  Some diseases are not treatable.

Everything is sacred.


Monda

Voodoo Scientists at Harvard, Berkeley and Stanford

by Monda on

Are still working on the Resilience factor - Another important piece to human psyche that will become much more clear as brain scan technology advances.


Monda

Temperament - on Conflict Avoidance & Conflict Resolution

by Monda on

Temperament is another piece we know little about.  Like other aspects of personality structure, neuroscience is becoming more interested/invested in it as time goes by.  It's been only 40 years since the very first researches on attachment styles were conducted by Stella Chase and colleagues.

Temperament refers to the innate traits we are born with And it is not related to intelligence (knowing some of you will ask this).  

There are 9 traits or components to each Person's Temperament:

(These traits are measured on a continuum. I'll describe the extremes to make my point) 

Activity Level - self explanatory, just think those of you who couldn't sit still (wayyy before ADHD diagnosis came about!) compared to those who could sit still at a mehmooni for hours.

Mood - Low mood (picture someone who is miserable starting the day) to High mood (translate Sunny, Cheery for no apparent reason)

Approach - People who are slow approach tend to take their time observing a novel situation before taking any action.  Those who are fast-approach just jump into new situations. (This may look like impulse-control issue)

Sensitivity - How we physically respond to external elements such as temperature, light, sound, etc.  Some of us cannot stand the feeling of a tag inside our clothes compared to those of us who don't even notice that tag (like me). 

Adaptability - How we are in transitions.  Slow adaptable person would take her/his time while a high-adaptable person just jumps into a different task if she/he find it interesting. (think those who make a face or throw a tantrum during transitions compared to those who take it on smoothly)

Regularity - About hunger, sleep, bowel movements, etc. Some people Need more structure than others/ Need to have food, toilet, sleep, etc. at a certain time of the day.

Distractibility -(Also called Focus) Our ability to stay on task. Compare efficient multi-taskers in your life to those who can focus on only one task at a time (Me:o)

Intensity - Of Emotions and Expressive styles. Compare Led Zepplin to Jason Meraz ?  or a kid turning blue over a piece of candy compared to a kid whose mom says no and he/she doesn't mind much (bacheye khoob)

Persistence -  How a person relates to Task-Completion (come up with your own examples of extremes)

So by looking at these traits, you can see certain traits not compatible with others, also of course considering the adaptive (read Adaptability) nature of humans.  Thus the Wonderful concept of "Good Enough" comes about. Good Enough in any relationship requires insight and clarity on personal beliefs, values, goals, needs.  Ask me if you'd like explanation.

Conflict Avoidant compared to Conflict Resolvant:  Notice the Temperamental differences in Approach, Focus, (possibly) Activity Level, Mood, etc.

Again, there is No Judgment about a person's temperamental style.  And they are Not any more Intelligent than the next person.  Just How We Are Born.

If there's enough interest about this, I will blog about it. 

 

 


Natalia Alvarado-Alvarez

..

by Natalia Alvarado-Alvarez on

...


default

HollyUSA

by KouroshS on

Like i said, I based that assertion on my own experience. But i also agree with the fact that the older generation women were taught and raised that way.

 An argument should not be the means to settle a score, which is unfortunately how it has come to be viewed with many ladies out there ( and in here). If a man takes the initiative to end an argument By appearing to be appeasing a woman, that should be welcomed and taken as a sign that Hey. let's not drag this on anymore. I don't see anything wrong with that approach and if a woman is really and sincerely interested in ending the argument and settling the matter right there and then, she should absolutely go along with it. What is the big deal?

regarding your specific situation, Perhaps it is "how" you bring up the matter that drives men to react that way. Men do tend to avoid discussing serious subjects at times, but then, so do women. They are not necessarily all ears when you need them to be:)

I don't blame you for not liking men who can not talk straighforward and resort to such tactics.

 


Midwesty

Thanks Holly,

by Midwesty on

It's a fresh breeze of air to see there are still women who are willing to communicate.


HollyUSA

KouroshS

by HollyUSA on

I disagree that it is mostly men in our culture who 'let it go'. I know that alt least in the older generation women were taught to not be 'argumentative' with their husbands and 'kootah biyan'. But regardless of which side gives in more, please do share why you think men do this (" i think many women should recognize the reasons as to why this happens")

"Appeasing someone does not mean you are trying to shut them up. This
should be an automatic conclusion for the "intelligent" party,
otherwise nashayad ke namash nahand eenteeleegent... :)
"

Well Kourosh jan, I guess you are right that ideally one shouldn't get angry. Bt then there is appeasing and there is appeasing in our own unique style! See, when I have a serious enough issue with something that want to discuss it, it pisses me off if the man tries to get off / avoid the subject. Sometimes they even say whatever they want to say wrapped neatly 'laaye zarvaragh' and then end it with 'vali albateh shoma keh taaje sareh mayeed' or similar. That I would feel, is insulting my intelligence.

Respectful, responsible,  intelligent and fair discussion is the only key to overcoming disagreements/conflicts in my view. There. I'm done :)


Midwesty

A useless discussion, conflict avoidance vs. conflic resolution

by Midwesty on

Hey Mouse,

These terminologies are used to call the method not the intention. The intention is to not having conflicts. If the conflict avoidance works for you then good for you. Monda's point is that the conflict avoidance techniques do not solve the problem and they might come back again in another form or shape.

Bottom line, where your point differs from hers is in the context of time. Conflict avoidance might or might not solve the problem in long term so is conflict resolution. But the intention is to solve it or avoid it without that specific nature of problem recurring again so you can have enough resources at your disposal to take care of the new problems.

It depends all to what works for the couples also there should a clear line of communication or at least be understood by the couples  what techniques are being used.

If the husband avoids conflicts it means he loves his wife, if the husband try to resolve it, it also means he loves her.

What it matters in either methodologies, is that husband and wife or couples should know that these techniques are useful when there is a clear line of communication.

No communication means no chance for avoidance or resolution to take place.