The Lotus

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onlyiran

i am baffled at how i could have brought up the solution to afghanistan here! nice lateral thinking there onlyiran.

deployment of a un peacekeeping force composed mainly of muslim neighbours forces deployed under a ceasefire arrangement with all parties involved together with launch of a serious un-led peace initiative for peaceful resolution of grievances on all sides. thanks for asking.

Peace

jamshid

i find you intolerant toward iran and iranians. winning an argument is the only thing you are here for. in the same manner, defeat of iri is all you are interested in. i am for tolerance and engagement and reform. this is the real argument. i asked you what is next in your line of argument. you refused to answer, and no i will not go through all your threads to get my answer. don't have the time. and you don't have a single blog entry either for me to get a jist of what you are about. forgive my rudeness, but your views are not necessarily clear to everyone around. it is precisely because you are so out to win an argument that what you actually stand for is unclear.

Niloufar Parsi

"well that is the problem you see. it is always the same pattern with you...  there never is a straight answer."

Is that all? After all the back and forths and straightest possible answers, that's it? That's all you've got to say?

I am glad you have run out of argumentation and resorted to saying something like that. For all practical purposes and for all I care, it means you have conceded. I'll let it be.

Samsam jaan

"Would you kindly delegate and put light on 2 subjects & enlighten the less knowing crowd.."

I don't know what wrong I may have done to you that you are delegating such impossible mission to me! "Enlighten" this crowd? Dear friend, you might as well tell me to cure the blind with prayers!

Well, if I wanted to try, I would use a word that would instantly get their attention, that would be "Palestine."

I don't recall Palestinians celebrating the Israelis advancement in technology and medicine as their own. I wonder why.

They will reply, but we are Iranians, we haven't occupied Iran. To which I reply, you have done worst damage to Iran than even what an occupying foreign colonial country would have done!

Besides, what technological advancements? They have taken Iran backward in all fields. It's like the kid who holds his hands up and then farts and while waving his hands up, says with exitement, "look mom! Look mom! I farted without using my hands! I am advanced and self sufficient!!"

Oh really?

How do you deal with a kid like that?

So dear Samsam, I am sorry but I cannot help you with your request due to its sheer impossiblity!

NP, Isn't this actually you?

kourosh

what makes it irreversible?

and yes, faster than ALL western economies.

jamshid

well that is the problem you see. it is always the same pattern with you. an obsession to 'expose flaws' - as if! - but always ambivalent about what you stand for. there never is a straight answer. it is not very interesting for me.

There is a difference

The brain drain effect is irreversible while that of other countries is not. All other nationalities have the right to choose to go back to their home country or stay in US or UK. Iranians don't have that choice.

Jamshid jaan

Since you are one of the most coherent thinkers on this site, Would you kindly delegate and put light on 2 subjects & enlighten the less knowing crowd on these items. Is time of the essence in occupation- Do fruites of occupation matter.

1- Does cultural occupation & forced assimilation erodes with time and is time sensitive? . In that sense, are cultural agents of Ommah still considered an occupation force in Iran and as such should be treated as non-native militant elements?. @ what point and time span the occupier becomes legitimate part of the occupied land(Mind you here I,m talking about pan-ommaties & pan-Qadessi ideologues & not decent kiaan loving spiritual Muslims who worship God & commit to cause of true Iran ).

2- Under the said scenario would an occupied country's advancement in all fields of science even if true be considered a national achievment in service of national interests?. Would you consider Soviet occupied east Germany achievments in lets say the Olympiads as German's national achievments or a mere pan-socialism's satelite?. would cultural realities on the ground in these societies due to forcefull assimilation be considered a natural process worthy of attention or be discarded as artificialy engineered trends by occupants which will cease as the occupation ends ?.

Pls elaborate & educate us time permitting.

Cheers pal!!! 

Path of Kiaan Resurrection of True Iran Hoisting Drafshe Kaviaan //iranianidentity.blogspot.com //www.youtube.com/user/samsamsia

Niloufar Parsi

"there is no argument. but where are you going with this? what is next? spell it out pls."

If you haven't figured the answer yourself, then you won't in a hundred years.

Either way, I am not here to convice you of anything. The only reason I engage in these arguments with you is to expose the flaws in your (and IRI's) views and propaganda. Even if I alert one person who is bombarded by your (and IRI's) progaganda, I have done my job.

jamshid

iran has not faced 'destruction'. you are not shy with your hyperbole!

your point about the brain drain is important. i would not argue against it. it is not the greatest brain drain in the world though. compare with iraq and other war-affected countries, and then indians, pakistanis, chinese, russians and europeans. if you look around you in the us (i assume you are there. am not sure), you will see many countries have the same problem. but it has had a major negative effect on the iranian economy. that is clear. many of iran's greatest assets have left the country. professionals, scientists, artists, graduates and intellectuals and many many more. us included. more than that, a million people died in a war. it was a major tragedy for iran. there is no argument. but where are you going with this? what is next? spell it out pls. i am curious to know.

Peace

Niloufar, Rosie

"the situation has led to the growth of indigenous know-how."

I am afraid, your mind is trained to be satisfied with the least. You don't mention the greatest brain drain in the world belongs to Iran. If the IRI really wanted to be self-sufficient, he wouldn't export our best brains to foreign countries, yet another free service it provides to the world at large.

If you have the slighest fairness, then you should compare Iran's economic indicators under the Pahlavis and under the IRI.

Nothing can change your mind though. The destruction of Iran was not enough to awaken you. Numbers certainly won't either.

Rosie: Arbadeh keshi in the poltical contextt means loud noise making in order to silence the truth and to divert attention.

Niloufar

Faster Than the growth rate of ALL western countries??? and you are telling me that i am the one who exagerrates? and on that basis, why does the unemployment rate continue to soar as this growth rate has been continuing? Is job growth not one big sign of a true economic progress?

Your last paragraph just make me lagug niloufar jan, I am so sorry. Iran is in a deep deep financial crisis as we speak, This may not have been caused by being engaged with those big financial institutions, But it definitely was an inside job resulting from incompetent monetory policies and style of management. and no one can deny that iran is not in a deep deep financial crisis right this moment.

as far as iran being technologically advanced compared with others in the region...I have my serious doubts on that one too. Unless you would compare iran to Lebenon or Jordan, all other countries are light years ahead of iran.

What's..arbade keshi?

Loutish behaviour.

What's...

arbade keshi?

kourosh

two problems with you comment. first, i never 'concluded' anything, and merely stated that there are 2 sides to the coin. second, you exaggerate iran's economic woes. if i am not mistaken, iran's economy has grown at an average rate of about 5% a year for something like 10 years at least. this is not 'super-slow'. it is faster than the growth of all western countries but slower than the likes of super-fast economies like china and india. i also pointed out that iran's economic growth could have been faster with different policies.

re. the washington consensus, the point was that 'free trade' with no protection for local industries is a fallacy that is now largely discredited. even the us government is using subsidies (called bail-outs) to protect local industry rather than allow the 'free market' to 'adjust' - i.e. let millions of people become unemployed.

in iran's case, protectionism has been forced on the country by the sanctions, and this is very likely to have some benefits for self-sufficiency of the economy. for example, it helped to shield iran from the financial crisis for sure as iran has been excluded from the large financial institutions for some time. moreover, the sanctions have forced iran to manage technology more effectively. iran remains the most diversified and industrially advanced country in the region, save for turkey, which was always technologically ahead of iran since the time of the ottomans.

this is not a statement about iran's internal policies toward the opposition. please see my comment to parsa below regarding my views on that.

Niloufar Parsi

You are right, secularism does not guarantee democracy, but I think it's the first step. Cuba is an example. Lula went to Cuba in the same day that a dissident died doing hunger strike and he didn't say a word, only when he came back to Brazil he said 'I did hunger strike when I was younger but I don't recommend it’. He betrayed his own history and he was coward to criticize Cuban government. It's getting late here and I need to study...pleased to talk with you...Peace : )

Niloufar parsi

 All this so-called Development of Internal and home made "know-how" is much hype about nothing. And i am not saying that it is being generated by you per se.

You have to forgive me for saying this, but it does seem to me that you are using this comparison as a cover to justify the regime's claims. How could this be a beneficial process if at the end what we get is a super-slow to a rather dormant state of economic growth? I mean what kinda advantage is that? Is it worth it? would we not have been better off if the IRI officials  had taken a different approach?

 Why is an entire nation, their fate and their Future is being sacrificed Just so we can Show off to the world the fact that we don't need them and we can do it all on our own?

You don't think that being "forced" to do anything is not really a prudent way to plan your long-term economic strategy?

Also, I don't buy your conclusion at all. One can not deny the facts, and you can certainly not do that by using the "washington consensus" label. It is wrong and a crime to hamper the economic growth of a nation By adhereing to nonsensical, the most non-pragmatic and Moronic Forms of policies.

lombriga

i too am against any government that limits human rights, or is of the religious type. these are great slogans that most people agree with, but i see very little appreciation of the actual context in you. the shah that you lament about topped the list of amnesty international's human rights abusers in the world. he beat apartheid south africa to it.

the greatest mass murderers and human rights abusers in the world were secular. hitler, stalin, mao, suhartu, saddam hussein, pol pot etc. the only muslims i see in the top list were secular ones.

secularism cannot assume the upper hand with human rights. it would be self-deceiving to do so.  but secularism remains our shared goal.

Peace

Niloufar Parsi

Lula is much more respected outside Brazil than inside Brazil, here many people mocks him, he was a socialist, now he is a populist, the brazilian left-wing thinks that he didn't do what he promised. Well, this is such a long history...

There are demonstrations against Israeli politicians and Israel actions and one thing I can say to you: the majority of the brazilians supports the palestinians, and I think that in others south america countries this trend is followed. I support Palestine!!!! We know how Israel state was created.

You said that I am projecting my views of secondary sources from usa, I don't think so. The dictatorships in south america were due to american interference and we are very skeptical about them. The anti-american sentiment here is big. But Chavez uses this sentiment to remain in power.

Maybe I am a weak because I am against all kind of government that limits the rights of the people and I think that religion limits the right of the people, in Europe, man and woman had the same rights when the state became secular, the iranian revolution is very hard to me to understand because of that.

I don't support people who use the anti-american and anti-imperialist sentiment to remain in power forever. Self determination has nothing to do with violation of human rights and dictatorships.

Peace :)

parsagarda

aziz, thank you for this great contribution to the discussion. yours is a tone of a brother.

as for the mullahs, we are all angry. i could not stand living there for more than three years when i moved back in the mid nineties. in fact i left soon after khatami was elected and despite the reform euphoria. it was far too slow how they proposed it as far as i was concerned. the control was just suffocating.

but this is the thing parsa, my perception of the clash is class-based essentially. yours is a cultural clash of arab versus persian.  to me, the mullahs and (more importantly) their followers are just as iranian as any secular iranian. this is not because i want them to be. it is because they are. the answer to the problem is not to call them foreigners.

we have no right to exclude them. well we have the right to say whatever, but it only makes us look biased if we do. so i can't call iranians 'arabs'. 

to me, it would be more appropriate to call us exiles with foreign passports 'iranian-something' but not just 'iranian'. let me give you a clear example:

the majority of iranians in exile with the will to organise and advocate against repression in iran will at least to some extent adopt the values of their host country. i wonder for example if any other group of iranian exiles can so comfortably discuss sanctions and even war against iran the way some iranian-americans do. 

we both know that iranians are still far too obedient to the mullahs. this will wane in time. it already has. we saw the protests. for sure more would be expected. more importantly, civil resistance and organisation will continue to grow and the push for change will gather pace. the national demographics require it.

but uncle sam is favouring the mullahs by being so belligerent. she is chocking the reform movement inside iran, and harming the country's economy. to advocate for peace between iran and the us is to support the reform movement in iran.

before you ask, no i am not a member of casmii or whatever its correct acronym! :) but i recently saw the guy's video for the first time, and he was really right on. 

Peace

lombriga

lula is an internationally respected leader with great credentials. i will not defend chavez but your attack on lula is unjustified. at least, it is poorly argued.

are there demonstrations against israeli politicians when they visit brasil? if not, why not?

my guess is that you are projecting the views of secondary sources from usa. fact is that there is wave of global support for independence and the right to self determination, and both lula and ahmadineajd are a part of it. china is standing up to the us, so is brasil. venezuela was a trend setter. the 'fear' that you are describing is the right wing backlash that craves us hegemony. no disrespect intended, but i am letting you know my impression of your stance. there is nothing obviously attractive about subjecting oneself to another type of domination just because there is local domination to deal with. i am sorry to say that you have little idea about how iran was during the shah's period. no matter what, you may acknowledge the collective rationality that resulted in such determination to rid the country of him. you just are not familiar with its details. that determination does not exist today. and there must be a rational reason for it. your own ideological preferences do not recognise that rationality. but i would suggest that that is your weakness.

Peace

Separation of Church and State

Niloufareh Aziz (Niloupar in Parsi)...

Thank you for your reply. As a someone who adores Iran, it is so hard for me to watch the warmongers and liers in the West libel and demean our kind. They threaten our land and lie without shame.

I am even more angered by the Mullahs. Their sins are even more grave.If you take an Iranian view, our ancient and civilized culture is tolerant of all religions and national origins. Our country is made up of so many diverse peoples who have lived in this land we all love and cherish.It is only the Mullahs who enforce the Arab language and culture in their brute force method of rulership. Any culture or religion that is intolerant of diversity is a cancer. Live and let live was an Iranian value before the Arab ways of the Mullahs and their self made religion arrived.I am not sure what your age is but I remember a day when our beautiful and unique culture reigned supreme and Iran was for Iranians of all origins. No one forced our men or women to pretend they are orthodox Bedouin. No one dared force the Arab culture and language on us.If culture and language are not the most valuable and defining characteristic we possess as Iranians, then what is it? If the West is irrational and hypocritical, then Mullahs and their Islam are criminal from an Iranian perspective.I'd be interested in your thoughts...

Niloufar Parsi

Lula is a moron that supports dictators around the world, people here are very angry that he is supporting Ahmadinejad. When Ahmadinejad came to Brazil, there were protests in the streets and on television. Lula compared the election in Iran to a football game and said 'People who are protesting in the streets are angry because they lost the game'. Chavez is a dictator who wants to turn Venezuela into another Cuba and, of course, supports his friends around the world. I am not a monarchist, but I think that Shah was fighting against the people who are in power today in Iran. In fact, most people here think that iranians are arabs, it's very comum you hear this on TV or read in the newspaper that Iran is an arab country. I said that Iran will be another Saudi Arabia because Iran is becoming a repressive state even worst than it was before election. Sorry if my comments hurt you, but I think that countries like Iran and Cuba made historical mistakes and now are paying the price and all the region is very concerned about this South America-Iran approximation. People here still are frightened with so many dictatorships we had in the past...

lombriga

he was not betrayed. he was kicked out because he was a nasty piece of work. you show total disregard for the intellect of iranians. you ever been to iran or anywhere near it? do you know much about the region at all? Chavez is a big fan, and Lula is visiting soon too. in fact. i noticed you have made some inaccurate generalisations about what the latin american countries think of iran.you even claim that iran will be the 'next saudi arabia'! how did you manage to come up with that one?!

lombriga

*) It was not all of us. It was a group of big mouth deluded idiots. A generation fooled by the likes of Shariati and Bazargan. Fooled into thinking that Islam was going to be thier salvation. They gave up on their one hope and embraced the vampire. The new generation is not buying it.

*) RP is a real patriotic Iranian. He care for the same reasons that I do.

Marg bar anha ke goftand marg bar Shah

VPK

Iranians dug their own grave in 1979

and I still don't know why Reza Pahlavi still cares about Iran,  a country that betrayed him and his father.

jamshid

you did not really address my last point to you. what 'foreign masters' does the iri have?

i do not think that the iri is smart about the way it has handled its foreign relations. quite the opposite. all the 'death to...' chants and all the loud noises are generally misdirected, and easy for their foes to exploit.

but there is the opposite side of the coin too: while iran has found it extremely difficult to purchase foreign technology at a decent price, the situation has led to the growth of indigenous know-how. i know you love to deny this, but iran has been forced to stand on her own feet, and this has in general had a beneficial side to it too. however, it has led to slower economic growth overall.

the argument about the longer-term consequences of slow growth with an emphasis on indigenous technology versus faster growth with foreign technology is an interesting one. i don't think anyone - outside of the politically motivated and clearly discredited 'washington consensus' - can claim to know the answer with certainty.

ps i am done with exchanging accusations. i wish you could too.

Parsagarda jan

sorry for the late response. i was going to write you a detailed response, and waited to do it today. but then i realised the question is simpler than i thought. 

quite simply, i believe in the separation of religion from the state. in the context of iran we see that it is easier said that done. but i certainly share this goal with you and many others. our difference has been on the most effective tactic for this to occur.

where i differ with your statement is on the depiction of mullahs as 'arabs'. this is clearly not the case (though i agree about their use of language - it is irritating!). actually, the great majority of muslims in the world are non-arab. let us remember this fact despite the origins of the religion. similarly, all christians or their priests are not semites or over-influenced by them despite its origins in palestine. hope that clarifies. 

btw, pls pls be critical of me. that is what a real friend would do :)

i am not part of this gang mentality we see among some. am always open to learning and growing with experience and knowledge. 

Peace