The Lotus

NP

you are being unfair. The harassment goes way beyond Northern Tehran. The repression of dissent is wide spread. Those 5 people just executed  were not from Northern Tehran. IRI is murdering people from all over the nation.

As for the elections without freedom to campaing and to run elections are illegitimate no matter what. All IRI elections are illegitimate by the fact that candidates are pre screened and the fact that there is no free speech.

No matter what you think IRI is marching to the same end as the Shah did. They will dig a hole deep enough they won't be able to pull out of. 

VPK

vpk

sorry i misled you in a way. my reference to green was in the environmental sense. i think i threw you off track there. 

regarding engagement, no they did not cheat in the elections. there is no proof for it, and we should acknowledge that in my view. we got it wrong, and perhaps even behaved badly like sore, undemocratic losers. 

i agree with your other comments, but i am afraid that side of things (harassment of people) is not as much of a problem for those outside of the northern tehran sphere. it does not constitute such a major issue for others, and i put it down to some correlation between iranian culture and harassment of some kind. we tend to be the interfering type. i am not saying they have any excuse, just that there is a reason why it is happening.

Peace

NP

Regarding engagement. Sure I am for engagement and am not looking for a fight. However it is the IRI leadership who is looking for a fight. I don't mean with the US; I mean with Iranian people. 

Why did they cheat and not let Mousavi take office? I know that Khamenei hates Mousavi personally. This is even though Mousavi is an IRI loyalist. Is this a way to run a nation?

Why do they force Iranian people to Islamic practices they may not want. What does the government care if I am a Muslim nor not? What of their business is it anyway? If I want to switch to Christian or Zoroastrian or Jew or Baha'i what do they care? They are the ones picking a fight not me. Their position is interfering with things that are none of their business.

If my wife does not want to wear a head scarf they will come after her. We won't go after the IRI goons it is they who want a fight. Note I am not talking about mini skirt or bikini; just normal hair like 90% of the world.

Just the other day they broke up a party by some young people. Here who picked the fight? Was it the young people or was it the IRI? Why don't they get off people's back and let them do their thing in private. That will be the IRI's undoing.

By non stop picking fights with people they delegitimize themselves. Breaking the law becomes the norm. Once people get used to breaking one law say on alcohol or on music the rest will follow. The IRI is unwisely ruining its own popularity.

NP

I see no opposite to Green. Because they are not a single thing. Some in Green are Islamic; others are secular but anti IRI; and so on. They are a coalition of necessity. So it is hard if not impossible to define what is against green. Maybe those who want to keep IRI in tact with Khamenei and AN in charge.

Now if the Greens were to win immediately there would be divisions. Right now there is nothing to fight over so they are all buds. Once there is something you will see. 

Personally I am not a Green. I most surely do not consider Mousavi my leader. I rather see a Secular Iran in line with David ET's document. But I will settle for anything where sanity wins out over ideology and specially over Islamism.

There are two things I find most destructive: Islamism and Marxism. Both are totalitarian. On the other hand I am all for socialism in terms of sharing nation's wealth; health care for all; guaranteed minimum standard of living; free education and so on. But then that is all in David's document. 

vpk

it is not that hard to figure. the old left and right caricatures are becoming obsolete. we also have a green direction now i guess. what's the opposite of that? grey?

in any case, i share those values with you. but you are the idealist one. i am more pragmatic. the iran that you do not like and would like to wipe off the pages of time actually exists and must be dealt with in the most rational manner. common sense would suggest that engagement would be a prerequisite for trying to go anywhere different at all. are we looking for a fight? or are we in search of higher goals? peace and higher goals tend to go together if we want to be realistic about iran's longer-term prospects. but if we are looking for a fight, then a lot of the recent subjective hysteria makes more sense. whatever the sabre-rattling is meant for, it is not for iran's benefit.

Peace

NP

Just for the record: I do not think you support al qaeda. I do think you are an idealist leftist. 

I do see some of your points of view; just don't agree with many of them.

Here are parts I do agree with:

US specially under Republicans but in general has a screwed up foreign policy. From the mining of Nicaraguan harbors; Contras; support for death squads in El Salvador; support for right wing lunatics all over; various coups like the one in Chile. Attack on Granada; fake color revolutions; lies Clinton made to Russia and helping put a drunk aka Yeltsin to run Russia. And of course Vietnam and the 1953 Iran coup. I know all these and have studied them in detail. I have also read you writings. 

Now for the parts we disagreed:

I think that the IRI is bad for Iran. I also do not think they are representative. Public opinion is easily manipulated as you see in both Iran and the West. Even if the majority of Iranians in a poll say they want Islam that does not mean it is good for Iran. People need to be allowed to hear all the sides. To go into decision with all the information. Not just hearing one side i.e. IRI and then polled without hearing the other side. In addition I don't think US being bad means IRI being good. 

I want what is good for Iran. IRI ain't that and I have studied it enough to know. 

I am for free and unfettered speech and free elections. Once we have that IRI will either fall or transform so it won't be IRI anymore. Then we won't need another revolution. Unfortunately they are not going to allow it so things will get tough.

PS,

The funny thing is that by Iranian standards I am a rightists and by standards I am a leftist. Go figure.

نیلوفر عزیز؛

شما جوانتر از آن هستید که اینگونه نامخوانیها را به خاطر بیاورید.  از فردای پس از بهمن 1357 ما اینها را به وفور در سطح دانشگاه و در خیل سیاسیون، و نه از مسلمانان حاکم، که از همین قماش هُرهُری مذهب شنیدیم. اندک نبودند آنانی که گفتند مبارزه آنها بر علیه رژیم است و نه سلطه گران جهانی.  در همین راستا سلاح هم کشیدند و خرمن هم آتش زدند.  آنهایی که خود را زرنگترین عناصر سیاسی برآمده از تاریخ ایران نامیدند هم فقط چند سالیست که خلوت گزیده اند.  بسیاری هم گفتند سخن نگویید و ننویسید که زمان زمان پیکار است.  زمان افشاگری، بخوان اندیشیدن، به سر آمده است. تا بوده چنین بوده. تندروها تُرک تازند و آب را گِل آلایند.  مراد اینکه شما این سوسوی اندیشه را باید روشن نگه داری که اگر اینها توان ببابند همین نیمچه قلم را هم تحت نام نامی آزادی و امنیت به لطایف الحیل به مسلخ خواهند برد.

پیروز باشی

منوچهر عزیز

many thanks for your kind encouragements. it appreas that a 'case' has been constructed for me! :)

modern man has carved out a neat little trick that allows a group to call another mad or subhuman or such like 'disease' of the mind. sanity replaced by sanitization to make one's own condition more palatable!

comfortable exiles sitting in the belly of the empire, oblivious to the misery dished out to those who want to live and think their own way.

Peace

vpk

thanks for the compliment!

are you for example claiming that i support al qaeda? can we be a little more realistic pls?

kourosh

what is getting old is your tendency to fall back on generalisations. all countries are in need of such economic transformation where the poor get a better share of resources. on that i agree with you but i see no particular fault in this regard with iran.

نیلوفر عزیز؛

کار زیبایی کردی.  دست مریزاد. هیچ کس نمی تواند از سیر تا پیاز شبهه های مخالفان را پاسخ موردپسند بدهد؛  بویژه آنکه شما در اصفهان می نوازید و مدعی آرزوی شور دارد.  البته، سخن شما بر موازین مستحکم استدلالی استوار است. تا آن اندازه مایه مباهات است و تقدیر. آرزوی من این است که معاندان شما هم همان مایه استحکام برهان می داشتند.

با درود

Vildemose, VPK

Well said! I could not have said it any better.

"For the likes of NP to abandon her POV is to abandon her very identity."

"They forget some of these anti US types are 10 or 100 times worse than the US. "

How true. How true.

Re: Jamshid jan: The case of NP

I think NP truly believes that IRI is a good thing because it "stands up" to the West. This is a point of view shared by a number of Western leftists. If you want to see it read Huffington Post or this link:

//www.opednews.com/author/author8568.html

Specially read remarks by Peter Duveen who is so hard left NP had to bring him to reality!! 

Needless to say I do not in any way or shape support this point of view.  I do however know people who think this way. I went to college in the US; spent time at UC Berkeley and got my share of hard left. People who support Castro but would not last 2 weeks in Cuba living as a real Cuban. These people are (rightly) outraged by US actions like arming the Contras; mining the harbors in Nicaragua; Bombing Iraq and so on. They wrongly support anyone who stands against the US. They forget some of these anti US types are 10 or 100 times worse than the US.

Jamshid jan: The cas of NP

Jamshid jan: The case of NP or people like him/her is not easy to analyze. She sounds like a Khannomzade or Aghazadeh; has led a very sheltered and pampered life; people around her lead the same type of life style. She talks of the poor but has no idea what it means to be poor. If she did, she wouldn't completely ignore the labor movement in Iran. She defines 'the poor' in her narrow and small circle of Khodi only in political terms. in other words, as those who voted for Ahmadinejad, the highly subsidized portion of poor, the Basiji and their tribes. There are many non-basiji poor that she does not regard as poor because they don't prostitute themselves for the state.

According to reigme's own statistics more than 18% of Iranian live below poverty level.  I'ts highly likely that  it's even much higher. Also, the criteria for determining poverty was conveniently changed under AN's adminstration.

Based on her logic, the poor should no longer be poor because AN has mirculously created wealth for 18% of population living below poverty level. How was this wealth created? What kind of opportunities and job training these poor people got? How can they earn money without being subsidized by the state??

For the likes of NP to abandon her POV is to abandon her very identity. They have to manage a separate reality from the rest in order to keep it intact.

 I don't think she is ready anytime soon to detach herself from her artificial cocoon.

Niloufar jan

kourosh

you have to be a little fairer than that. 3 times you refuted my statement about iran's economic growth and now you are not interested in 'theories'?

but i did not mean to get personal. i hope i did not offend.

Peace

As I said

Everyday when they wake up, they have to look for new lies, new excuses, new sophistries, new half truths, new ways of playing with words...

But you know what? They first and foremost are lying to their own selves. In my opinion, they sincerely believe in their own sophistries and half truths.

Remember Hitler? In the last months of WWII, when Germany was being invaded from West by the allies and from the East by the Russians, many of Hitler's generals were in shock to see Hitler still sincerely believed he will be able to repel the enemies and turn the war to his favor!

And Hitler and his likes were not the only ones in history who suffered from illusions. I am not a psychologist, but I think the likes of Niloufar Parsi are so "attached" to their ideology and Islamist views that it just makes them blind to the truth. These attachment are so well entranched in their psyche that their entire existance is based on it. They revert to anything to prove to themselves that nothing can be wrong about their ideology.

So in a way, I pity them for victimizing their own free spirit by willingly enslaving it to a failed ideology. This failed ideology works like a symbiotic parasite that lives in the victim's body and forces the victim to feed the parasite, or else.

Anyone remembers the last days of Shah's reign and his increasingly strange illusions? Welcome to the club, Ms. Niloufar Parsi, welcome to the club.

Elementary what??:)

Souri Jan: It's amazing.

Souri Jan: It's amazing. Isn't it? You said it eloquently. It is a travesty if people like that ever hold any position of power in the future Iran. A 9-year old can construct a logical argument better than the defenders of radical Islam.

As I said already, you are a real waste of time!

You say the poor have overwhelmingly voted for Ahmadinejad because they were happy with their economic situation? And then, you conclude that the economy is going very well in Iran under Ahmadinejad government, because the poor have voted for him?

What a poor logic! You are not able to play even a simple demagogue, as your logic is sooooooo poor and childish.

And you pretend having studied in Political Sciences? You pretend that you know the basic  & elementary economics ?

God help us! With the politician like you, Iran will be a world super-power very shortly.....Or, maybe you think that it is already?
What a cheap statement!
Learn how to debate Niloofar, you are really disappointing!

kourosh

you didn't study elementary economics, did you? let's forget the 'growth' business. we are only talking past each other.

when you say: We need economic progress that MATTERS to our people not what makes the
administration look good.

who is 'our people'? if you actually mean the poor, they were the ones who overwhelmingly voted for ahmadinejad. but you go ahead and speak on their behalf as long as you like.

Peace

Souri jan

I am learning so much here LOL

Be in migan mardom shenasie Amali:))

NP

Oh so it would be more beneficial for you to separate the two different kinds of growth now. I see how that works:) At any rate, I don't care much for the % of growth. Whatever rate it is at, I want it to be translated and transformed into something meaningful for the People in iran. When the Unemployment starts to shake loose and declining that is when i will be convinced. We need economic progress that MATTERS to our people not what makes the administration look good.

Wrong. Many have sworn they will never return to Iran for as long as IRI is in charge. Why should they? Unless they are directly affiliated with the IRI.  Those "pull" factors are Jobs and security and nothing more.

Kourosh jon, be khiaal :)

There's an old French proverb which says: There's no deafer  than the one who doesn't want to hear!
Or in the other word: no more blind than the one who doesn't want to see!
She is a waste of time.

kourosh

western economies' growth rate has been in the 2% range for quite a while. i am only talking about the growth rate, not the size of the economy. iran's is only mid-range in size, if that.

lack of jobs and all that is the main reason for all economic migrants. the west also has a great pull factor that brings migrants from all over, including the most qualified ones. many will return to iran when they are ready and many won't.

Peace

jamshid

and you have laid out all the terms and options for the world to see and that is it?

you are funny. but in a dangerous way. one that would cause much harm to iran. luckily, you are a part of a tiny minority. end of discussion for now.

Niloufar

Are you seriously asking me that question? You mean to tell me that you have not heard about  the main reason that the youth immigrate to begin with? here. Let me give you a hand here:

Lack of JObs! Lack of decent Jobs, lack of possibility of gainful employment!

Which Incidentally are the same reason There is no way i will ever believe you that Iran has had a growth rate equal to that of ALL western countries LOL.

Niloufar

"you are still only talking about me and not you."

No, I am not talking only about you. I am talking about the IRI, which includes you. If you felt that I am talking only about you, that is representative of your ego and your illusions of importance, nothing more.

"then there is an abuse of hyperbole and abusive allegations..."

Do you find it abusive when you are called a regime supporter?

If you don't find this abusive, then what are you complaing about, why do you cry "abuse"? You should be proud instead!

However, if you indeed find it abusive, does it mean that you are secretly admitting to the shame that the IRI and its supporers are?

There is no third possiblilty. So there it is. It is either the first or the second. I am ok with both. I rest my case.

jamshid

seems like i touched a nerve. you are still only talking about me and not you. well you add in predictions of earthquakes from you. that is all. then there is an abuse of hyperbole and abusive allegations, as repetitive and boring as ever. all i said is that i don't want conflict. eye for an eye does not work. makes everyone blind by its own logic.

Niloufar Parsi

"defeat of iri is all you are interested in. i am for tolerance and engagement and reform."

Yes, defeat of IRI is a top priority for me.

But let's talk a little about your oh, tolerance and engagement and reform. 

Tolerance? Yes, you are for tolerance, but tolerance of human rights violations and looting of Iran, because your ideology permits all of them to be sacrificed. The greater goal must be achived at all cost.

Remember the "Khomeini-imposed" war between 1982 and 1988? How many people died? Khomeini was very tolerant of death and destruction too, just like you are. Remember, ideology justifies anything, right?

Engagement? And how are you suggesting the people of Iran to "engage" with the likes of Khamenei or Ahmadinejad? Could you enlighten us? The last time they "engaged" them, they ended up in Kahrizak getting raped.

Reform? Thirty one year of reforms have gotten us where exactly? The hardliners are in complete control of government, even more so than before. No, thank you.

Niloufar Parsi, you represent a scheme that is sentenced to fall. Much like those fraudulant financiers who use a pyramide scheme to milk new suckers in, in order to hold the scheme on its feet. But with the passage of time, they have to get more and more suckers decieved to hold the scheme from falling apart, until one day, there won't be enough suchers.

Just like you, you have to rely on more lies, sophistries, half truths and pretenses with each passing day. It used to be little at first, but now it requires massive amounts. Sure there are still a few stones you can turn and find another lie or another sophistry under them to use. But you are running out of stones fast.

Your scheme is already crumbling. It may seem to you that your folks have put a stop on the people's protests and so things are safe again for you. What you don't realize is that they only manage to cut the branches. But the roots are growing even at an impossibly higher rates than before.

I will be only a few more years before the next earthquake, it will only be stronger. Do you remember the shakings from June of last year when people like you all but disappeared from this site?