Parham

Addendum

Please keep in mind that when the oil concessions were being made, Iran was an extremely poor country that could not have taken care of anything, much less exploit the oil reserves it had. When Mossadegh was nationalizing the oil, even though the British had not allowed Iranians to acquire technology and know-how through years of exploitation, Iran was still able to run the refineries without the Brits being there.

More, when the concessions were made at the turn of the twentieth century, oil still didn't have the importance it did fifty years later when it was nationalized, or at least little did realize its potential in the world.

So compare apples with apples and oranges with watermelons, will you?!

Miscommunication

The question was :

" Has Mossadeq ever condemned THOSE WHO SIGNED  oil concession WITH BRITISH ? if yes, please show me the source. If not, why not? "

The answer was:

"Of course he condemned time after time what the British used to do".

That didn't answer the question.

Responses

• Dear Parham: Mossadegh did *not* beat Brits at their game! Who got overthrown; not the British PM. We might debate Mossadegh's motives and actions. But the result is not debatable. Brits destroyed him whether we like it or not.
• To all: Opium addiction is not a sign of being evil or bad intentioned. Nor does it indicate lack of patriotism. I don't know which politicians used it but specially in moderation it is an "irrelevant" point.
• To all: ancestry of a person is also not an issue to me. What matters is what a person does not who their grandfather was. 

A humble reply

From the moment he nationalized oil and beat the Brits at their game, why would you even need him to condemn the concessions?? You say that's not qaraz? Of course he condemned time after time what the British used to do, which was plundering the resources of the country AND mistreating the Iranians who worked at the refineries. His speeches from that period are all over the Internet.

Again, Mossadegh has never made any claim about his being Qajar (or not), it's all an outcome of twisted minds -- due to QARAZ!

More, you go about the opium addiction of Mozaffareddin Shah as if it was something extraordinary in those days. For your information, your own Reza Shah The Great used to smoke opium as well in case you didn't know. Or, how old do you think the women he married were when he married them?? Look it up...

A humble question

 "The reality is that Mossadeq never even really talked about the Qajars it's you people who are trying to say he was proud of being one (note: it was only his mother who was a Qajar too)!" Parham 

Seems there was some misunderstanding. This was the claim:

"they are trying to change Mossadegh’s family tree! " P_J

In other word the writer of above claim is trying to say that Mossadeq's family tree was something very good and some people here are trying to make it look bad.  In response to that I mentioned.. what family tree? The pedophile shah known as Nasser e din shah and the other opium addict shah known as Mozafar e din shah has already looked bad and no need for anyone to change Mossadeq family tree to make them look bad. 

Now, by the comment from you which I highlighted on the top,  you are trying to dissociate Mossadeq from Qajar corrupted family. Sure, no problem.  My question for you is : Has Mossadeq ever condemned those who signed oil concession with brits? if yes, please show me the source. If not, why not?

My expectation from a patriatic man is to condemn those who signed that nasty oil concession.  Thanks in advance for response. This is a humble question with no gharaz (contempt).

Siavash

ملیت سویس قضیه

ملیت سویس قضیه اش مال قبل از همه اینهاست. تازه مقامهای احراز شده برای لغو امتیاز اینگیلیسای چشم چپ کافی نبوده. جنابعالی که باید اینهارو بهتر بدونین که. بعد چی شد، تا بحال بزور منبعم پدرم بود، حالا جویای منبع شدید جناب خدمتگزار هِر مَجستی؟ زمین به آسمون رسیدِس؟

فرهاد جون

حالا که‌ شما دیگه طاقت نیاوردید و قدم رنجه کردید و از اینطرف تشریف آوردین ممکنه بفرمأین توی اون نامه چی‌ نوشته بودند. هیچ وقت پرسیده بودند که چرا پاپا مصدق رو دستگیر کرده بودند؟ یا چرا متین دفتری رو از کار بیکار کرده بودند؟ چه قدر این پهلویا بد بودند حتی نمیومدن یه بار از اون جاده ردّ بشن که این دخترا نامشونو بشون بدن! عجب مردم بی‌ انصافی بودنا.   

راستی‌ آب و هوای اسپاین چطوره؟

پرهام جون به قول خودت: منبع؟

بابا قرار بود یه فاتحه و سه‌تا صلوات بخونید و قضیه رو فیصله بدین ولی‌ مثل اینکه این داستان حالا حالا‌ها ادامه داره. علی‌ الخصوص که دیدم پرهام جون به منابع تاریخی جدیدی دست یافته که تا به امروز پیدا نشده بودند. مثلا یکی‌ از فحش هایی که مرحوم مش قاسم همیشه به من نثار میکرد این بود: مصدق وقتی‌ ۱۴ سالش بوده والی‌ فارس (مستوفی)بوده ولی‌ تو (منظورش من بودم) چه غلطی میکردی وقتی‌ چارده ساله بودی؟ منم می‌گفتم من غلط نمی‌کردم، راست می‌کردم! تازه مصدق بعد از مستوگی گری خراسون رفت که وکیل بشه ولی‌ با وجود کبر سن گرفتن (تقلبی) مجلس دستشو خوند و اعتبار نامشو ردّ کرد بعد هم توی چندین کابینه عضویت داشت تا بالاخره راهی‌ سوئیس شد. پس آقا مصدق کلی‌ فعالیت سیاسی کرده بود قبل از اینکه تابعیت سوئیس رو تقاضا بده در ضمن کجا نوشته که احمد قجر میخواسته بستنی فروش بشه (بستنی خیلی‌ دوست داشته) به جاتی اونکه از انگلیسا دستور بگیره (البته راست میگفته دستور خوشش نمیومده بگیره فقط حقوق ماهونه میخواسته که اونم به زور ببش یه مدتی‌ دددن). پرهام جون دیگه قرار بود رو حرف بابا جون حرف بزنیا!

KHADIJEH MOSSADEGH

Away from all this vitriol and back to the subject of this blog.

My elder sister (alive today) was not only Khadijeh's cousin but, being about the same age, one of her best friends.

She recounts that, in the days immediately following Dr.Mossadegh's arrest, Khadijeh and she put their heads together and composed a letter to Reza Shah asking for Dr.Mossadegh's release.

With letter in hand, the two young girls waited two whole days on the side of the road, where Reza Shah and retinue were wont to ride on horseback, hoping to deliver it personally.

Disappointed by his no-show, and probably scolded by their parents, they abandoned the mission.

The reality is...

... that Mossadeq never even really talked about the Qajars, it's you people who are trying to say he was proud of being one (note: it was only his mother who was a Qajar too)!

To get things more in context, when Mossadeq was thinking about applying for Swiss citizenship, he had never really attained any high governmental posts in his life, so it's even impossible to imagine that he could have tried to nationalize oil then and there. More, don't forget that oil was nationalized when it was time to renew the contract with the British, meaning that he could only jump on the occasion at that juncture and not renew the contract, he couldn't have done it before...

And to give credit when it's due on Ahmad Shah's statement about selling ice-cream in Europe, it must be said that he had made that statement saying that he preferred selling ice cream in Europe rather than taking orders from the Brits in running the country, something that Reza Shah actually did later (refer to General Ironside's account of how he brought Reza Khan to power). So even that is taken out of context.

Unfortunately, all I can see here is again, a bunch of people coming out and making statements out of gharaz (contempt) every time Mossadegh's name is mentioned, and this will likely go on, so I'm asking you to save your breath (and precious time) for more beneficial deeds, because all those who read these lines (or most) know where you people are coming from...

Regards.

Of course, mossadeq nationalized the oil, no doubt.

Unlike Fariba Amini, we are not here to change history, fabricate the events or lie about historical figures. That is Kinzer and Amini's job, not mine. The fact that Nasser e din shah was pedophile and Mozafar e din shah was drug addict was a response to one of the commentors by the user name of P_J . Here is what he said:

"Now, they are trying to change Mossadegh’s family tree!   It’s not only STUPID, but grossly ridiculous and in a way sadly FUNNY. " P_J

What family tree? pedophile and drug addiction? or Ahmad shah, the wimp man who was saying he prefered to sell ice cream in Europe than to be a shah of Iran.? is that family tree something to be proud of? How could possibly any rational person compare wimp Ahmad shah with Reza shah the Great? 

Otherwise, we don't want to deny history. Yes, my father also was in Maydan e Baharestan in 30 tir and he alwasys talk about his efforts in nationalizing the oil. Mossaddeq did a great job, no doubt about it, but the motivation behind Mossadeq diligent action was NOT quite the same as some people were saying. In fact, shah sent a letter to the court. He appreciated mosaddeq efforts in nationalizing the oil,  requesting the court to be easy on Mossadeq for his efforts of nationalizing the oil.  

That's what you say

When will you people stop being so sore and just take reality as it is/was? It was Mossadegh who nationalized oil, nobody else.

Now go on about your Qajar theories and how Mozaffareddin Shah was an opium addict and Nassereddin Shah a pedophile, it won't change anything to history: Mossadegh nationalized oil.

There.

yes Parham, no doubt about it

But let me make it clear for you. When Brits money for our oil was pouring in Qajar family's pockets (NOT Iranian pocket) back in 1912-1914 Mosaddeq didn't have any problem with Brits. Mossadeq was not even thinking to bring British imperialism to it's knee.  In fact, he and his family was in very good term with Brits because Brits money for oil guaranteed Qajar family's lavish life style in Europe. The hostility started right after Reza Khan end Qajar's dynasty and Brits supported the new Pahlavi versus Qajar.

   Since 1920,Mosaddeq hostility was targeting 2 opponents.

 A. Pahlavi who ended the rule of corrupted Qajar family

  B. Brits who supported Pahlavi. Guess what.?

That hostility did not come up to surface till 50's when Mosaddeq was assigned as a prime minister. 1st he get rid of old foe -Brits-  by his diligent effort to nationalize oil. The  2nd he tried to ousted the shah who was the son of Gazagh. The Garagh who ended his family's rule. That was the whole scenario. Now, some naive people keep saying yes he was patriatic without even knowing the history.    

My father was one of those crowd in nationalizing the oil in 50's.

BTW, I have never been proud shah had any relationship with communist block. In fact, I always said the women in those countries  were selling their bodies to survive because of high degree of poverty. That might have happened to Iran if shah wouldn't retaurned in 1953.

Siavash

Okay, fair enough. I'd say Fariba just didn't know. But the reality is Mossadegh is the one who nationalized the oil -- not anyone else, and he did do it with the help of the people. That, to me, is a huge achievement.
There.

Reminder for Parham

by Siavash300 on Thu Aug 25, 2011 03:21 PM PDT

"Mosaddeq never wanted to become a Swiss citizen. Another lie, a very bad
one!  You see, you cannot distort history ; it's right there black on
white. " Fariba Amini

Pages 54 and 55 of the book "All Shah's Men" under the chapter A wave of oil,  by Steven Kinzer, who happens to be Ms. Fariba Amini's dear friend, reads:

The onset of illness forced Mossadegh to give up his studies in France after a year and returned to Iran. There he was able to rest, partly because the ruler he detested so viscerrally Mohammad Ali Shah, had been forced from the throne. After his recovery he returned to Europe, this time to Swiss town of Neuchatel, accompanied by his wife, their three children, and his beloved mother. He entered the university there, earned his doctorate of law in 1914- the first Iranian to win such a degree from Euopean university- and decided to apply for Swiss citizenship. First though, he would travel home to complete research for a book about Islamic law.

Yes, I know Kinzer is a big liar, you and probably Parham didn't know.

This is the time our country were being bobbed by Brits. I am wondering where was nationalism at this time.

In May 1946, comrade Stalin and his army with help of Peshwari and it's Democtratic party occupied nothern providence of Iran. They were whispering about separation of Ajarbaijan from Iran. Shah made his historica statement. " if you cut my both hands, I would never sign the separation of that providence from Iran" . That is a nationalism, not frail man at age of 86 with terminal cancer who doesn't want to move around while he is in "death bed".

For Parham information:

  shaboon bemokh was originaly supporter of mossadeq ol saltane. shaboon bemokh stopped beating up Shah's supporters, when mulla kashani changed sides. Read also my previous comment about Tayyeb. And always remember: Mass makes the history, not lampoons, not prostitutes.

"Iran could have become a full fledged democracy if only the West had not interfered.  All the institutions and groundwork were there." Fariba Amini

No, any one with basic knowlege of sociology realizes that education is pre-requisite for democracy. 90% of our people couldn't even read or write their names.

Sincerely,

Siavash

Regardless of Ceausescu fate, my point was shah was admired not only in western world such as U.S, U.K, France, South Africa, Germany, Swiss.....etc. he was being admired by communist block as well. Romania was just vivid example of eastern block. As a result, Iranians were well respected around the globe.

No,...

... I don't remember you catching Fariba lying. What I do remember however, is you being very proud of the fact that the "Emperor of Rumania" (Ceausescu, whose name and fate you didn't know, and probably still don't) had given the Shah an award! I also remember having rested my case right then, right there, which I will do again now and here!

Parham jan, Job was done very poorly!!

"Now, they are trying to change Mossadegh’s family tree!" P_J

Dear Parham,

This is another case of ignarancy that I talked to you before. Further conversation with ignorant people reveals that their information about Mossadeq doesn't go further than comic book of "Dai Jan Naplean". Just heard of Mosaddeq and oil nationalization. They are compeletly ignorant of Iran's history and what exactly happened.  

For example they don't know Mossadeq was 19 when his opium addict uncle known as Mozafar e din shah signed the oil concession with George Rynold,  William D'arcy reperesentative,  in 1901. Mossadeq was quiet and never said anything. Again they don't even know that when Churchil bought 2000 shares of oil concession to power ship and preparation for WWI, Mossadeq was trying to get citizenship to Switzerland. We were getting ripped off and Mossadeq didn't even want to come back to Iran. MY grandfather was uneducated, but Mosaddeq achieved his doctora degree in those days and he knew exactly what was going on. Don't you expect he should have done something?. Period of 1912-1914 was the most nasty part of our history. We were being ripped off by Brits and Mossadeq wanted to stay in Swiss for good. Never come back to Iran.  What a patriatic person!!! I caught Farib Amini red handed lying about this. Do you remember? she was lying and I caught her lie right in spot.

 The other idiot was saying the oil concession between Brits government and Iran government was signed under Brits coerce. The idiot didn't even know there was no signing contract between 2 governments. D'arcy was not a brits government and that opium addict shah known as Mozafar e din shah was not an Iran government.

Mossadeq's family tree? one was pedophile shah known as Nasser e din shah and the other one was opium addict shah known as Mozafar e din shah.

   Pahlavi dynasty was not even in the picture.  Furthermore, Ignorant people doesn't even know there is not even one single trace in our modern history that Mossadeq condemn his Qajar mongolian dynasty for oil concession in 1901. He deserves the nobel prize for his loyalty to his mongolian Qajar dynasty. What a patriatic person!!!  This patriatic man was quite for over 50 years when our oil was being ripped off by Brits. Anyway, operation Ajax is another story for another day which I discussed about it before.

Do you see what ignorant people we are dealing with on this site?  

رو که نیست...

رو که نیست...

اجازه دهید برای آرامش روح آن مرحومه بحث را خاتمه دهیم

Thank you Parham, job WELL DONE!

Here we have two RADICALLY SADISTICAL Shahollahi/Hezbollah IDEALOGUES,  who are trying HARD to rewrite the history!

One is proudly calling himself “ Nokar-e-Englees”, which I am sure he is, and the second one is most likely another NOKAR, or subservient to the same people or organizations, or on the payroll of the Pahlavi Criminal Enterprise.

One can’t discuss anything logically with them.   Same is my experience with the Hezbollahis…they offer IDENTICAL reasoning and possess same track of mind and in thinking.   In fact they follow the same ideological path and are as INTERANSIGENT as the duo here!

Now, they are trying to change Mossadegh’s family tree!   It’s not only STUPID, but grossly ridiculous and in a way sadly FUNNY.   It means that they are so EMPTY of reasonable thought(s) and ideas that they are grasping for a straw!

They also forget that you SYMPATHIZE/EMPETIZE with those who are less fortunate than you are, and not ridicule them, but what can you expect from characters that put SAVAK/SAVAMA torturers to shame, and may be they are two of them in disguise!  

Greatness of Dr. Mossadegh… his DIGNITY, his PATRIOTISM and his HONESTY and integrity coupled with his action(s) and behavior both domestically and abroad, i.e. winning in the International Court, is written in stone…same way that Mohammad Reza Pahlavi’s TREASON, EMBEZZLEMENT, MURDERS and THEFTS are!

These historical events or occurrences not only have been well established but carefully REGISTERED either by historians or international and domestic observers!

 Thanks again for the article!    

Re Gandhi & Mossadeq

You're right to compare them, both are people who gave the Brits the lesson of their lives, aren't they?!
I hadn't thought of that myself...

So convincing Parham joon so convincing!

yes Parham, that is true

"Khadijeh Mossadegh did in fact not fall ill because of the brutality she had witnessed inflicted to her father, but rather because of a genetic condition running in the Qajars" parham

Yes,that is true. During revolution ruling mullahs used to bring sister or close family member  of the political prisoner and torture them in the front of victim's eyes in order to get confession from the political prisoners. None of these people who were witnessing their family members under torture fall ill similar to Khadijeh because of the brutality they had witnessed inflicted to their family members. Torturing in the front of family memeber was common practice among ruling mullahs back in 80's. You may read more about this in the book called " torture confession".

At the end, those people, such as Farhad Diba etc,  should be grateful and thankful to shah because shah allowed them to wire money to Switzerland for khadijeh's treatment. I am sure you know that right after shah left the country, the money stopped. The ruling mullahs didn't allow money being wired to her hospital and financial support from Iran's government stopped. The poor lady suffered from not having enough money and being burden on shoulder of those who were close to her until she died.  

Reza Shah the Great, is another story and it is NOT the subject of your blog here.   

re: توضیح بر توضیحات

I see. So you're trying to say that Reza Shah's reign was not brutal by citing examples of its' brutality! So (not-)brutal that, for example, an old man would rather commit suicide instead of being sent to Birjand (the equivalent of being sent to Siberia in Iran in those days). How smart.

And you're also trying to say that Khadijeh Mossadegh did in fact not fall ill because of the brutality she had witnessed inflicted to her father, but rather because of a genetic condition running in the Qajars (which none of the links you have pasted still really points to). Well I'd say Mossadegh must have been some man to, despite illnesses like that, have brought down the mighty British empire of those days to its' knees!

I also think, like I've always said, that you people should really start thinking about digging your heads out of the sand, because it's about time! The fact that Reza Shah's rule was brutal is an established one, there is no need to even debate it.

Just look up the names Nosrat-Dowleh Firouz, Modarres, Teymourtash; to name a few, and see what happened to them.

I wonder who the "fanatics" are now.

Anyway, toodle pip!

# 5

of your list was also published in Bokhara magazine.

I realy respect Mr mossadegh as an Iranian intelectual of our times .

And was always saddened by mrs mossadegh last years of life as I read her story on that old bokhara magazine.

thanks for reminding us of that family; may she rest in PEACE.
Maziar

توضیح بر "توضیحات"!!

My health was so poor and I became so weak that I often had to lie down on one of the benches which were in the lecture theater and try to listen to the lecture. . . . My poor physical health, lack of sleep, and nervous exhaustion gave me much trouble . . . it was rare for a patient's stomach secretions to be as irregular as mine.[6]

Musaddiq's health became an important factor in the crucial negotiations to resolve the nationalization crisis that were conducted with American officials in New York Hospital where the ailing premier was admitted for examination.[7] Aside from any effects on the actual negotiations, Musaddiq's frail constitution and his erratic emotions earned him such unwelcome labels as the "crying" prime minister or the "madman."[8] Though not physically debilitated, he could be viewed as a prisoner of his illnesses since his health shaped the foreign opinions that eventually contributed to his downfall.[9] "

"....  In addition there is a strong genetic component to both anxiety disorders and manic-depression. It should not be surprising, therefore, that Muhammad Musaddiq's youngest child, Khadija, had been a patient in various Swiss psychiatric hospitals since the age of twenty (1942). Homa Katouzian ed., Mosaddiq's Memoirs (London, 1988), 3, 144."

//www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/sick_men_of_persia1.php 

On the whole this is a very sorry episode to happen in any one's life but it only takes a Mossadeghi zealot and fanatic follower to take advantage of it for political gains. 

توضیحات

سوا از اینکه باز اسم مصدق برده شد و نوکر اینگیلیسا خود را ملزم بر پاره پوره کردن جگر خود دید، لازم دانستم چند مطلب را هم ذکر کنم که به لطف عریضه اضافه شود:
۱ـ فرهاد دیبا برادرزاده دکتر مصدق میباشد، نه خواهرزاده او.
۲ـ هیچ جایی از تکست تحت لینک آورده شده ملاحظه نشد که موروثی بودن مرضی در خانواده مصدق مرقوم و معلوم شده باشد. بنابر این، این ادعا دروغ است، که بهرحال از جناب آقای نوکر اینگیلیسا انتظار بیشتر از این نمیرفت.
۳ـ هیچ جایی از تکست تحت لینک آورده شده اینهمه داستان در مورد قرص تریاک و چه و چه و چه آورده نشده، کما اینکه آقای نوکر اینگیلیسا بهرحال هم همانطور که ملاحظه شد، از ذکر منبع تکست فارسی خود تفره رفته است.
۴ـ جالبی همه داستانهای آورده شده توسط نوکر اینگیلیسا در این است که اثبات میکند مصدق تا چه حد در راه خدمت به مملکتش از جان گذشتگی نشان داده و چند بار تا حد مرگ پیش رفته است، آنهم با وجود امراض مختلف!
۵ـ از همه مهمتر اینکه این مطلب در واقع در جواب به پیغامی نوشته شده بود که اینروزها با ایمیل در اینترنت دست بدست میگردد، و در آن ادعا میشود که شخصی خدیجه مصدق را در آسایشگاهی در سویس دیدار کرده و پرستار به او گفته هیچکس به سراغ دختر مصدق نمیرود. حتی در جایی سعی شده بود که کمک مالی برای خدیجه مصدق جمع آوری گردد و به او فرستاده شود! این بود که آقای عبدالمجید بیات مصدق، نوه دکتر مصدق، صلاح دیدند که این یادداشت را قبل از به بیخ کشیدن ماجرا به نشریات توضیع کنند...
تنها قصد از این مقاله کوچک این بود، همین و همین. حالا هم قبل از اینکه بحث به قیمت گاو در هندستان و رابطه آن با زنان کُردی برسد لازم دیدم این توضیحات را ضمیمه کنم.
خوش باشید.

Childish

This blog details a lady's struggle with depression and possible other diseases. Take it for what it is. You guys are the ones making this political. When I read the post I started thinking about what diseases she could have had and how the Insulin therapy and lobotomy must have made her disease worse. There are many other people like this lady who need help. That's all.

Here you go, the site convert to personal attacks

What is these none senses here? Instead of looking deeply at the issue, all focuse on persoanl attacks toward commentors. That is ridiculous. Many people get suffered from mental illness, but making such a big deal to pursue political agenda is a punch to the face of the victim rather than anybody else. Mossadeq suffered from Epilepsy and it makes sense his daughter inheritated some kind of illness as a result. I am not a medical expert, but that is common sense. It is rediculous to attribute this lady's illness to the politics. It is childish and somewhat stupid.

P-J

In a totally unrelated note: 

The High rate of College graduation does not necessarily amount to a high literacy rate. There are so many other factors that come in to play. In many instances, degrees are awarded without any merits and we all know about it. Besides the knowledge that one obtains once he or she is in school, can basically be considered null and void in a couple of years after graduation, especially in a society such as iran where unemplyment rate has skyrocketed and is on track to get even worst! since the theory is n ot put into practice.