Unity Of Mankind

Dawkins and Bahá’í understanding of God and nature...

Dear Progress ,

I thought it might be helpful to take your original questions and combine them with  Richard Dawkins, analysis in his book The God Delusion, The new atheism, reconsidered.

In an article Steve Phelps, a Bahai wrote: 

"In a world threatened by religious extremism, the need to take stock in religion and to search for new perspectives is an urgent one.

Among the most vigorous of such examinations is a movement dubbed “the new atheism,” led by scientists who argue that not only can science better explain reality than a belief in God but also that religious belief itself has become a threat to humanity.

Foremost among this group is Richard Dawkins, a British ethologist and evolutionary biologist at Oxford University, whose latest book, The God Delusion, has remained near the top of best-seller lists.

“Faith can be very, very dangerous,” writes Dr. Dawkins. “Suicide bombers do what they do because they really believe what they were taught in their religious schools: that duty to God exceeds all other priorities....”

But while D r. Dawkins and other new atheists believe the way forward lies in a world without religion, Bahá’ís approach the issue of God, nature, and religion from an entirely different perspective.

Stating that traditional religious beliefs are inadequate for the modern age, the Bahá’í Faith recasts the whole conception of religion, suggesting it is the principal force impelling the development of consciousness.

In this light, there is much in Dr. Dawkins’ book that Bahá’ís would agree with — including his condemnation of religious fanaticism, his call for the application of reason and science in the battle against irrational theologies, and his argument that the theory of evolution can explain the emergence of complex life.

Central to Dr. Dawkins’ project of dismantling the foundations of religious belief is an attack on what he calls “the God hypothesis” — the idea “that the reality we inhabit also contains a supernatural agent who designed the universe and — at least in many versions of the hypothesis — maintains it and even intervenes in it with miracles, which are temporary violations of his own otherwise grandly immutable laws.”

The arguments in the first half of The God Delusion flow from this assertion, beginning with a solid, if at times dismissive, rebuttal of the traditional proofs for God’s existence and culminating in an exposition on how evolution explains how life might arise through a gradual and cumulative process without the need to invoke an intelligent designer. Indeed, Dawkins argues that a designer of the kind defined by his “God hypothesis” must be even more improbable than its handiwork.

When set against traditional religious understandings of God, Dr. Dawkins’ arguments are quite powerful. But against the Bahá’í understanding of God and nature, the contradictions that he identifies between science and religion simply dissolve.

Bahá’u’lláh describes God as an “unknowable essence,” “sanctified above all attributes,” and “exalted beyond and above proximity and remoteness.” As such, Bahá’ís understand that God is far above all that we can ever know. The very categories of “being” and “existence,” which underpin logic itself, are inadequate when referring to God.

Accordingly, Bahá’ís would agree that the traditional logical proofs for the existence of God fall short. But it does not follow that because God is far removed from physical reality that God is therefore irrelevant to the workings of the universe.

A number of passages in the Bahá’í writings suggest that God’s action and the laws of nature are folded together — and that the natural laws that, say, guide evolution, are merely an extension of God’s will. “Nature is the expression of God’s will in and through the contingent world,” writes Bahá’u’lláh, explaining that “all the atoms of the earth have celebrated Thy praise,” and yet are “under one law from which they will never depart.”

In this vein, distinct categories of natural and supernatural action blend together allowing Bahá’ís to view the physical world in both sacred and secular terms. God’s action in the world looks more like physics than magic.

Moreover, reason is given a place of honor in the Bahá’í writings. “Religion must conform to science and reason; otherwise, it is superstition,” said ‘Abdu’l-Bahá. Bahá’ís embrace the theory of evolution without believing that it implies that human life is merely some wildly improbable accident.

In the second half of the book Dr. Dawkins turns to the subject of religion and its effect on human society, attempting to extend the theory of evolution to explain our innate moral sense and the roots of the religious impulse. While this argument is intended to invalidate religion, here too the central idea under discussion is given an unexpected new meaning in the Bahá’í writings.

‘Abdu’l-Bahá stated that the founders of the world’s great religions “aware of the reality of the mysteries of beings,” and that from this awareness they establish religion, which is defined as “the essential connection which proceeds from the realities of things.”

“The supreme Manifestations of God,” he said, “establish laws which are suitable and adapted to the state of the world of man.” Such Manifestations have included Abraham, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses, Buddha, Jesus, and Muhammad — and, most recently, the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh.

While religion is seen in the Bahá’í writings as an expression of interconnectedness, so too is nature: “By nature is meant those inherent properties and necessary relationships derived from the realities of things,” said ‘Abdu’l-Bahá. Religion, then, becomes an expression of the limitless unfolding potentialities of creation; and revelation takes on, like nature itself, an evolutionary character: its form and content are a function of time and place, even as its underlying purpose, the transformation and sublimation of human consciousness, remains unchanged. The idea “that religious truth is not absolute but relative, that Divine Revelation is not final but progressive” becomes, in the words of Shoghi Effendi, “the fundamental verity underlying the Bahá’í Faith.”

From this perspective there is no necessary tension with Dr. Dawkins’ argument that our deepest religious and moral sensibilities might have an evolutionary explanation. Even if religion in principle arises from the natural order of things, there is no reason to assume that every part of that order can be encompassed by the ordinary human mind, or that religious morality is arbitrary.

Rather, Bahá’ís understand that those moral precepts which have most critically guided the development of human civilization, and which have resonated most deeply with the human soul, stem from the articulations of the Manifestations of God, who have been given a preternatural grasp of the deepest interconnections between things. Like all-knowing physicians, they perceive the disease afflicting human society in every age and prescribe the appropriate remedy.

The disease that is most gravely afflicting the world today is religious fanaticism and hatred, as Dr. Dawkins acutely observes in his closing chapters. With this Bahá’is would wholeheartedly agree. “The fire of religious fanaticism is a world-devouring flame,” wrote Bahá’u’lláh.

For Dr. Dawkins the source of the decline of religion in the modern age is in part a “changing moral zeitgeist” that has superseded much of the moral message of sacred scriptures of past ages, and in part a persistent rejection of reason and adherence to man-made doctrines. With this, too, Bahá’ís would fully agree.

The remedy lies in building up the new as the old collapses. Bahá’ís see religion as a living phenomenon, having its own life cycle on the scale of centuries — individual faiths have their birth, efflorescence, and decline, in the end providing the seeds for the renewal of the one “changeless faith of God.”

Without this larger perspective, it is easy to conclude in a world “dimmed by the steadily dying-out light of religion,” as Shoghi Effendi put it, that religious belief in any form is incompatible with the needs of the modern age. But evidence of a rebirth, embodied in the worldwide Bahá’í community, composed of millions who are gradually building open-minded and God-centered oases of faith in action, is dawning on the horizon."

— by Steven Phelps

You had also written that  "the very essence of faith is to believe without proof "

This at least has not been my independent experience... 

As a young man living away from Iran, and  family and friends in a foreign and Godless environment, I was able to from my own opinion as i met extraordinary people of all backgrounds; some religious some not. 

I will try and explain: 

What drew me to some was an inexplicable radiance, unconditional contentment and inner confidence; invariably they had a belief in something and a definite humility about them. These people were usually soft spoken, of little words, best described as "human magnets". where nearness to them was calming, joyful and inspiring. At that time in England, in the post 60s era, many were english university grads, many with brilliant academic records ; some where ex hippies, who had tried everything and survived the fog of Drugs and Alcohol.

The essence of my faith then, grew from seeing real world transformations in people.

The Proof form me came with power of their actions, their steadfastness and distinguished example, especially in Iran, when they started to imprison, torture and try to force Bahais to recant their faith.

Those who have survived  these tests and ordeals can tell you, that while there were in prison and under interrogation, living under those horribly cruel condition, they felt an incredible calming energy. In fact Roxana Saberi who was recently released from Evin and many others who have shared the ordeal with Bahais have mentioned the the unusual calm , grace and dignity of their fellow inmates under interrogation and torture.

see //latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylonbeyond/2009...

We may not be able to see and experience God with our own eyes, but we can certainly learn see the sign of His presence in Nature and people.

As Einstein remarked:

   "The most beautiful and most profound experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms - this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness."

No one can prove to you the existence of God; you have to create within yourself the conditions; its you who has to make that discovery and connection...and when you do , its an unmistakable feeling.

keep digging :)

regards

faryar 

Thanks for the links

I know that Bahai's are devout - at least Bahai friends that I have and have had, have been that way.

Unfortunately, all these so called teachings say the same thing. From Bible to Torat to Koran the very essence of faith is to believe without proof - as there can be none. Take this quote from //reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-2.html

"One of the proofs and demonstrations of the existence of God is the fact that man did not create himself: nay, his creator and designer is another than himself."

Just like that? See what I mean? (you don't have to answer that). It is written so it must be so! Whoever said that man was "created" anyway?

This could be a long dsicussion and most people, specially muslims, do not have the capacity for objective discussion of this sort. That's why discussions like this never get anywhere. I guess you believe what you believe and I believe what I believe.

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IRAN BEFORE ISLAM 

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Dear Progress; We live in an unprecedented age of knowledge...

Dear Progress; We live in an unprecdented age of knowledge and discovery

...

I the following refernces will give you some food for thought and a logical platform for further study and reflection on these age old questions...

Some Answered Questions was first published in 1908. It contains questions asked to `Abdu'l-Bahá by Laura Clifford Barney, during several of her visits to Haifa between 1904 and 1906, and `Abdu'l-Bahá's answers to these questions.

Prominent among the topics are detailed explanations of Christian subjects, including interpretations of chapters 11 and 12 of the Book of Revelation, chapter 11 of the Book of Isaiah, the story of Genesis, and many other subjects.

• 1: NATURE IS GOVERNED BY ONE UNIVERSAL LAW
• 2: PROOFS AND EVIDENCES OF THE EXISTENCE OF GOD
• 3: THE NEED OF AN EDUCATOR
• 4: ABRAHAM
• 5: MOSES
• 6: CHRIST
• 7: MUHAMMAD
• 8: THE BÁB
• 9: BAHÁ’U’LLÁH

 also

Faryar Jon - Let's get philosophical

I don't want to get into a religious discussion with you or anyone else, although I often do!

Obviously, you  see the world as a much more complex entity (and it is on the surface) than I do. Throughout the ages, this has created the basis for the need to understand why we're here and what is our purpose for being here.

I, on the other hand, see things a lot simpler. But - I am willing to listen. For starters, the following thoughts have bothered me for some time and would like someone more sophisticated than myself to help me with them:

This is a wide and vast universe (hopefully you agree). There are hudreds of millions of galaxies within each lies hudreds of bilions of stars.  We do not know how many of these galaxies can harbor life (in any shape or form), but it is logical to believe that each galaxy can probably have at least one star system than can.

1. How many are advanced civilizations (humans in my mind do not count as advanced)

2. Do they have gods and religions?

3. if so, do they have the same god(s) that we have on earth?

4. Where do these gods come from?

5. Where do they reside?

6. What was there before these gods?

And most important of all questions (back to earth):

7. If god is so mighty and fair, why isn't there just one faith that people can belong to with no desease, no pollution, no hunger, no child will die of cancer or no family will be left without a father/mother, no wars, no hatered, no murders, abandant food for all creatures, etc., etc.???

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IRAN BEFORE ISLAM 

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Dear Faryar

Thanks for your input. I will try to work within the guidelines and framework set by the Iranian.com and honor their wishes as this is their business and have certain policies .

Best Regards,

Powerof9

Dear JJ

Thanks for your clarification on this matter. I will comply accordingly.

Regards,

Powerof9

Dear "progress" Religion is not dogma and Ritual...

I think your response is a little unkind, and judgmental with regards to Relgion, and specifically the Bahai Faith, its history, achievnments and mission. 

Your overall assesment of dogma and superstition is correct, what you perceive as "Religion..." is actually centuries of additions and deletions to the word of God; the corruption of what was once pure and sacred; the best example of this is the conduct of clerics of all religions , their extremism, corruption and their attempt to stay relevant and in power at any cost that has turned people away from all religions in the east and west, especially in Iran.

My understanding and belief in Religion however, is far different and more objective; one that considers religion as progressive and an unfolding revelation from God  according to the capacity and needs of each age, from a Creator who is as far as we can comprehend  is an infinite and unknowable essence.  

He has given us the ability through our physical and mental ability to learn about our physical world through acquired knowledge. Our knowledge of the human Soul; its power and influence over the human mind is however one that can not be acquired at any school or study of the physical sciences. 

Spiritual education of mankind has from the beginning of Man's existance come from a Spiritual Source; the belief in a higher being. No amount of progress in material science, no amount of sceintific discovery can reveal anything about the man's spiritual nature. 

It has been the power and wisdom of the Spiritual influence that has been behind every world civilization; From Zoroaster as the Prophet of the ancient Persian religion of Persia, to the influence of Israelites on Greek philosophers, to the rise of the Holy Roman Empire, to the spread of Islam to the west, its influence and advances in Astrology, Chemistry, Mathematics and Architecture. to the revelation of Baha'u'lah whose teachings and principles signaled the dawn of an unprecedented new age of Material and Spiritual progress; beginning with the advent of the Bab in Iran in 1844. The world since 1844 has never been the same. 

My understanding of Religion is then, nothing but knowledge and education of spiritual reality, separate from mental and physical entity. My belief in Religion, is ONE that is in agreement with Science and Reason void of empty ritual and superstition.

My belief in Religion is a religion that brings people together ;one that is the cause of learning and progress. One that over 150 years ago in feudal Iran, has given the blue print for a global society; promoted Universal education. equality of men and women and an end to the rule of clergy...amongst many other principles.

If this is not your interpretation of my Religion, then you are with all respect,  seriously uniformed.

I can only ask you to kindly look at this with a more open mind, without what you already believe to be "religion" and examine what in this new revelation is cause of love and unity amongst races and nations...

The cost of progress, is an open mind, the shedding of preconceived ideas ,a relentless examination of facts and a desire for Truth; without it there is no progress in this wide and vast universe :)

regards

faryar 

I mean no offense or disrespect to

your beliefs, but God and Religion ARE the cause for division among the inhabitants of this planet hurtling through space while orbiting an ordinary yellow star, about 30,000 light years from the center of the Milky Way Galaxy, one among billions of Galaxies, in this wide and vast universe. 

Referring to the quote from Faryar below:

"In an age were Religion and God are seen as causes of division rather than unity; some might superficially look upon such as "Tabligh", a Bahai sees it as an act of love, dedication and duty to share what they see as new guidance and the spirit of the age; what the self serving Mullahs have for so long tried to avoid."

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IRAN BEFORE ISLAM 

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I appreciate power09's passion and good intent...

 I appreciate power09's passion and good intent in posting quotes that only some might find relevant and inspiring.

I however agree with JJ that such posts could be more  appropriately offered with context and opinion; one that would promote a healthy and equally relevant discussion of issues and questions we all face with as human beings living at a very critical and dynamic age. 

In an age were Religion and God are seen as causes of division rather than unity; some might superficially look upon such as "Tabligh", a Bahai sees it as an act of love, dedication and duty to share what they see as new guidance and the spirit of the age; what the self serving Mullahs have for so long tried to avoid.

Unfortunately, due to the opposition, animosity and over a hundred years of outright anit-Bahai campaigns, generations of the iranian mind has been poisoned by the malicious campaigns of lies that continue to this day, denying Bahais of “the necessary legal right to enforce its laws, to administer its affairs, to conduct its schools, to celebrate its festivals, to circulate its literature, to solemnize its rites, to erect its edifices, and to safeguard its endowments” ; but in turn equally denying the people of the holy land of Iran where Baha’u’llah was born the opportunity to benefit from these principles, at a time when  such concepts dealing with Race, Gender, Social justice and Peace were not only foreign in the West, but unimaginable in 19th century Iran, steeped in ignorance and cruelty.

Such lost opportunity and the subsequent opposition has led to the tragic dearth of knowledge about even the most basic Bahai belief, one that is consistent with not just the Persian Soul, but spiritual principles  that are consistent with the demands of a progressive and civilized society; over a century of opposition robbing the average iranian of the opportunity of direct access and knowledge to the kind of principles and Divine wisdom that could have over a 150 years ago, most certainly have Freed us from the "paralyzing influences of an antiquated, a fanatical, and outrageously corrupt clergy; one that has undoubtedly contributed to the present absurd superstitious and backward s mentality that has a grip on the iranian masses; the kind of mentality that believes in a hidden Imam in a well for a 1000 years and leaders like Ahmadinejad that believe they can hasten the return of Mahdi, by causing the destruction of the world; leading Iran and Iranians to the plight that it faces today.

The Bahai writings, as the latest of revealed religions, teach the individual to search independently;  to examine spiritual solutions for a new age which has brought with it exponential change in every aspect of human existence. Every single Bahai Principle Revealed by Baha'u'llah over 140 years ago address the challenges that every nation and country faces today, in a world that in the 21st Century,as Baha'u'llah stated: "The Earth is But One Country and Mankind Its Citizens.."

With appreciation and thanks to JJ  for this diverse Iranian forum and its pioneering stance in the cause of human rights and freedom of expression and the courage to be "the" first Iranian web presence to say "Heechee kam nadaaran" at a time when no one dared.

best

faryar 

Religious posts

Hello,

Thank you for your participation in iranian.com blogs.

The blogs are primarily intended for original content in the form of thoughts, ideas, commentary, personal stories, poetry and the like.

Your posts are comprised of quotes and excerpts from religious texts and figures. This will encourage followers of others faiths to do the same -- without expressing any views of their own.

You are welcome to discuss religious ideas from your point of view and even quote portions from your favorite religious texts, but please avoid posting material that is not your own.

Many thanks

j